PDA

View Full Version : Improved Grab + Pounce?



Angry Bob
2010-11-15, 10:54 AM
Exactly what the title says: What build gets Improved Grab and Pounce the earliest? As an extension, what build gets them and gets to use them well? I know of the Darfellan Spirit Lion Barbarian/Scaled Horror build, but are there any other good ones?

TroubleBrewing
2010-11-15, 11:09 AM
This ought to help you build one. If you want more help, provide a level required, restrictions, campaign type, etc. The more information you give, the more help we can give you! :-)

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871954/Lists_of_Stuff

Angry Bob
2010-11-15, 11:25 AM
Limited to official material after that fiasco with homebrewed LA reducers, but that's about it.

I really just want to know if there's a built that gets me this before level ~7 and doesn't restrict me to reptilian/aquatic races.

Emperor Ing
2010-11-15, 11:27 AM
at first level. Take one level in Lion Totem Barbarian and spend your feat/ take a flaw to get Improved Grab.

Angry Bob
2010-11-15, 11:33 AM
I know there's Improved Grapple(PHB 95), which this build will probably take anyway, but is there a way to get Improved Grab(MMI 310) as easily?

Karsh
2010-11-15, 11:40 AM
Earliest you could do it? 1st level.

Human Lion Totem Barbarian with a flaw and at least STR 13 and WIS 13.

Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Scorpion's Grasp (Sandstorm p.52).

Earliest you could practically do it? 2nd level.

Level 1 either be a Monk or an Unarmed Swordsage, getting you Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat and potentially Improved Grapple if you take Monk. Take Scorpion's Grasp with a flaw/human bonus feat if you're an unarmed swordsage, otherwise take it with your 1st level feat. Then 2nd level is Lion Totem Barbarian.

This gets you the equivalent of Pounce and Improved Grab, although Scorpion's Grasp doesn't qualify you for something that requires Improved Grab as a prerequisite.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-15, 11:46 AM
Scorpion Grasp in Sandstorm is basically improved grapple as a feat, I don't have the pre-reqs handy though.

Angry Bob
2010-11-15, 11:48 AM
Alright, I'm thinking. There's a chaotic monk variant that I can no longer get at because Crystal Keep removed it(Though my DM's probably lenient enough to let me work something out without it), I could mix that with Lion Totem Barb, I could go Fist of the Forest, then keep progressing swordsage or barbarian, maybe picking up some Stances. Hm. Maybe I'll post a prospective build later. I should probably just start with unarmed swordsage, shouldn't I? That gets me Tiger claw and supports dual-wielding light weapons.

I'm disorganized. I'll make up a prospective build and post it later.

Sir_Chivalry
2010-11-15, 11:52 AM
I would be remiss if I didn't mention the Feral template, which grants both Improved Grab and Pounce.

Karsh
2010-11-15, 11:53 AM
I mean, grappling doesn't lend itself super well to Tome of Battle, and as a strategy at higher levels it leaves something to be desired since the entire strategy can be negated by a 4th level spell. But sure.

Angry Bob
2010-11-15, 12:08 PM
Right, obviously at high levels UMDing antimagic or even just getting an antimagic item of some sort is obligatory, but right now I'm just working on the skeleton.

As for the Feral template, that's fun, but those fancy special attacks require you to have monster hit dice. So while I could play something with a few racial hit dice and take Spirit Lion Barbarian, that doesn't seem optimal to me.

Person_Man
2010-11-15, 01:46 PM
Pounce is easy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358). Improved Grab costs 3 feats, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, and Scorpion's Grasp (Sandstorm). You can also use the much overlooked Complete Champion Barbarian bear totem variant. You can also use Wild Shape or Alter Self to turn into anything with the Improved Grab ability. Or Bear Warrior.

Eldariel
2010-11-15, 02:32 PM
Pounce is easy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358). Improved Grab costs 3 feats, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, and Scorpion's Grasp (Sandstorm). You can also use the much overlooked Complete Champion Barbarian bear totem variant. You can also use Wild Shape or Alter Self to turn into anything with the Improved Grab ability. Or Bear Warrior.

Spirit Bear Barbarian from CChamp is prolly better since Pounce-type abilities are a bit cheaper feat-wise; one for Snow Tiger Berserker, one for Catfolk Pounce, two for Sphinx Claws tied to Hand Chakra, etc. Though they all come with restrictions, provided you can find an appropriate one, Spirit Bear > Spirit Lion in this case.

Angry Bob
2010-11-15, 02:52 PM
Actually, since buyoff's allowed, Catfolk Pounce grabbed my attention and is currently being built.

Curmudgeon
2010-11-15, 03:02 PM
One level of Scaled Horror PrC (Savage Species, page 83) grants Improved Grab. You'll need BAB +5 to get there, though.

Person_Man
2010-11-15, 04:41 PM
Actually, since buyoff's allowed, Catfolk Pounce grabbed my attention and is currently being built.

Catfolk Pounce only applies to Flat Footed enemies.

What's your ECL, books allowed, and build goal?

Angry Bob
2010-11-15, 04:53 PM
ECL is currently at 2, and this is a backup, so who knows what it'll actually come in at. The campaign is pretty much going until we get bored with it. So, until about level 25. All official books allowed, plus some homebrew that needs pre-approval to get used. Non-full casting is preferred, but that's me, not the DM.

The build I want is something that can absolutely destroy an enemy in a grapple - particularly inattentive spellcasters. Kind of hard to use somatic and verbal components when someone's feeding you your hands. I know that Reaping Mauler blows, and that the Darfellan Barb/Scaled Horror/Black Blood Cultist is pretty good, but I just wanted to know if there was anything else to consider that I hadn't.

Catfolk Pounce: Flat-footed. That sucks.

Admiral Squish
2010-11-15, 04:56 PM
Were-panther?

Keld Denar
2010-11-15, 05:03 PM
Tashalatora?

Monk2/PsyWar4 gets pounce by ECL6 with Psionic Lion's Charge, and can have Psudo-Imp Grab by level 1 with Scorpion's Grasp. Also has access to Expansion for size increases (size = ez grapple bonus) and Grip of Iron which has the duel bonus of being an Immediate Action (amazing with the Link Power metapsionic feat in Comp Psionic).

Tash is a feat in Secrets of Sarlona that stacks one psionic class on top of your monk levels to determine the strength of your UAS damage, AC bonus, and flurry progression. Really good.

You should also look into getting 1-2 different forms of Constrict. The easiest two are Incarnum (Kraken Mantle + Shoulder Chakra) and Tome of Battle (Martial Study + Martial Stance for Crushing Weight of the Mountain). Everything else requires the ability to take different forms. Constrict is amazing, since it deals damage EVERY TIME you win a grapple check, even if that check is your foe trying to escape. SQUISH!

Angry Bob
2010-11-15, 05:07 PM
Tashalatora?

Monk2/PsyWar4 gets pounce by ECL6 with Psionic Lion's Charge, and can have Psudo-Imp Grab by level 1 with Scorpion's Grasp. Also has access to Expansion for size increases (size = ez grapple bonus) and Grip of Iron which has the duel bonus of being an Immediate Action (amazing with the Link Power metapsionic feat in Comp Psionic).

Tash is a feat in Secrets of Sarlona that stacks one psionic class on top of your monk levels to determine the strength of your UAS damage, AC bonus, and flurry progression. Really good.

You should also look into getting 1-2 different forms of Constrict. The easiest two are Incarnum (Kraken Mantle + Shoulder Chakra) and Tome of Battle (Martial Study + Martial Stance for Crushing Weight of the Mountain). Everything else requires the ability to take different forms. Constrict is amazing, since it deals damage EVERY TIME you win a grapple check, even if that check is your foe trying to escape. SQUISH!

Fancy. This will be looked into immediately.

Person_Man
2010-11-15, 05:18 PM
ECL is currently at 2, and this is a backup, so who knows what it'll actually come in at. The campaign is pretty much going until we get bored with it. So, until about level 25. All official books allowed, plus some homebrew that needs pre-approval to get used. Non-full casting is preferred, but that's me, not the DM.

The build I want is something that can absolutely destroy an enemy in a grapple - particularly inattentive spellcasters. Kind of hard to use somatic and verbal components when someone's feeding you your hands. I know that Reaping Mauler blows, and that the Darfellan Barb/Scaled Horror/Black Blood Cultist is pretty good, but I just wanted to know if there was anything else to consider that I hadn't.

There are two key reason to use Grapple. It allows you to immobilize 1 enemy, and it allows you to deal unarmed or natural weapon damage with an opposed Grapple check instead of an attack roll. The disadvantage is that you lose your Dex bonus against all non-Grappled enemies.

Knowing this, it makes sense to maximize your unarmed or natural weapon damage, and to only use it when you are fighting 1 enemy, or you can reasonably kill your target in 1 round.

The best non-caster options to do this are generally the Totemist, Psychic Warrior (King of Smack), Monk/Psychic Warrior (Tashalatora), or Bloodstorm Blade/Hulking Hurler (King of Pong (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107248)), or some variant of those options. All of them have relatively easy ways to make a full attack every round, boost their damage, and boost their Grapple check.

Totemist is strongest at low levels and has the advantage of not needing Expansion, which can't always be used in tight dungeons. At higher levels he'll be weaker then psionics users, but he has the advantage of being "always on" with his abilities.

Psychic Warrior and Monk/Psychic Warrior are best at mid-high levels, when their (feat and power intensive) combos kick in. Plain Psychic Warrior has better powers. Monk/Psychic Warrior has slower power progression, but better Skills and more bonus feats early on.

The King of Pong combo doesn't kick in until a relatively high level, and he's mostly a one trick pony. So I wouldn't suggest him for a long term campaign. But he is hilariously awesome.

Keld Denar
2010-11-15, 05:34 PM
A build that I've been tentatively playing with uses some web content. Tash works with ANY psionic PrC. There is a PrC in the Mind's Eye enhancement called Soul Manifester. Its basically the psionic equivalent to the Soulcaster PrC in MoI. If you do Monk2/Ardent1/Totemist2/SoulManifester10, take Practiced Manifester for Ardent and set Tash to Soul Manifester. That gives you 12 levels of "effective" monk progression, which gets you Greater Flurry and decent base UAS damage. It also gets you the Totem bind and a few others toys. Now, with your Totem bind, bind Blink Shirt to it. Also, when you qualify, take the Sun School tactical feat. Sun School allows you to make an attack when you Dim Door next to someone. Normally that goes with a pure monk's Abundant Step, but that comes too late and too little. Blink Shirt is AT WILL. The attack you get then then turns into a grapple. You are bamf-grabbing people, which is all kinds of cool.

Flaws: Soul Manifester is 1/2 BAB and d4 HD. This is kinda bad, although you'll recover a HUGE grapple bonus from Girallon Arms and Kraken Mantle, and hopefully you'll have a decent Con score to lessen that. If you get in trouble, just port out of the grapple with Blink Shirt. Also, Ardent's don't get Expansion. You can pick it up with Hidden Talent or Expanded Learning, but you are already hard up for feats. If you use the Mind's Eye mantle substitution text though, you could swap Expansion in for a similar power. Natural World is a good choice (also has Metamorphasis). Law has Grip of Iron, so that's covered.