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View Full Version : [3.5] Defending against Disjunction



Choco
2010-11-15, 12:00 PM
Was just wondering what the best defense against Disjunction would be. Other than loading yourself up with artifacts (do minor ones work for this too or just major?) to try to make the caster loose spellcasting abilities, which would more than make up for the loss of your magic items.

Psyren
2010-11-15, 12:07 PM
Disjunction is a burst, therefore anything that blocks line of effect will work (e.g. Wings of Cover.)

sonofzeal
2010-11-15, 12:10 PM
Tinfoil hat trick? :smallbiggrin:

1) Build a giant tinfoil hat, big enough to comfortably hide in.

2) Cast "Shrink Item" on it

3) Ensure that it gets Disjoined first.

4) Congrats - when Disjunction goes off, your hat returns to its normal size and cuts off line of sight, protecting the rest of your gear!

5) Profit! (No ??? this time!)

Feliks878
2010-11-15, 12:30 PM
If you're willing to burn a ring slot, and you're of sufficient level, is there any reason a Ring of Counterspells wouldn't work?

Psyren
2010-11-15, 12:34 PM
Well, the tinfoil hat works on AMF because it doesn't matter if your gear or buffs get suppressed along with the hat or afterward. As long as the emanation ends up blocked you get everything back.
Disjunction, however - by the time your hat expands to cover you, the rest of your gear and buffs would already be disjoined. You would be effectively locking the barn door after the horse has been stolen.

Duke of URL
2010-11-15, 12:34 PM
If you're willing to burn a ring slot, and you're of sufficient level, is there any reason a Ring of Counterspells wouldn't work?

Two reasons, actually:

1) A ring of counterspells can only be used with spells of levels 1-6.

2) The spell must be cast on the wearer; mage's disjunction is an area-effect spell.

Crow
2010-11-15, 12:59 PM
Epic Seed: Ward

Feliks878
2010-11-15, 02:08 PM
Two reasons, actually:

1) A ring of counterspells can only be used with spells of levels 1-6.

2) The spell must be cast on the wearer; mage's disjunction is an area-effect spell.

Those are very good reasons. Sorry, I'm dumb. Thank you.

Eldariel
2010-11-15, 02:22 PM
Ring of Spell-Battle can, at least arguably, redirect it as an immediate action once per day. It's in Magic Item Compendium. Battlemagic Perception and Duelward give you free Counterspell actions for it. Contingency and Contingent Spells [Complete Arcane] or Instant Refuge [Spell Compendium] could be worded to whisk you to safety if an opponent targets you with Disjunction. That's my usual defense grid against it. Spellblade [Player's Guide to Faerun] could arguably work but it's such an idiotic item anyways that I don't see a single reason for it to exist in any gameworld ever (god I hate some of the Faerun content so much... Like the fact that about 50% of all the insanely overpowered caster material comes from there).

Volos
2010-11-15, 02:29 PM
Improved Initiative. :smallcool:

Frosty
2010-11-15, 02:29 PM
1) Take Feat: Reactive Counterspell
2) Make sure you have a Greater Dispel or equivalent prepped (and a high enough Dispel check)
OR
3) Make sure you have a Disjunction of your own prepped

Tvtyrant
2010-11-15, 02:31 PM
Play a Noctumancer, or if DM is afraid of your unlimited power a Shadowcaster with warpspell.

Or prep disjunction and just use a ready action ever turn to use as a counterspell.

randomhero00
2010-11-15, 02:43 PM
Would making all your items slotless work? (by paying double)

Choco
2010-11-15, 02:50 PM
Ring of Spell-Battle can, at least arguably, redirect it as an immediate action once per day. It's in Magic Item Compendium.

That would work nicely I think, and be in character too. Better than just a defense, I might be able to argue with the DM to have the spell emmanate from me instead of the villain, dispelling HIS items instead of mine :smallcool:.

BTW I am not a caster, though I do have ranks in spellcraft and can pump it with extra skill points to better use the ring. Any of the caster-specific advice is still welcome though cause there are casters in the party that could use the info.

And if all else fails, there is the "run up with AMF on and grapple him" method.

EDIT: making items slotless would have no effect. You don't have to be wearing the magic items, all in range are affected.

randomhero00
2010-11-15, 02:53 PM
That would work nicely I think, and be in character too. Better than just a defense, I might be able to argue with the DM to have the spell emmanate from me instead of the villain, dispelling HIS items instead of mine :smallcool:.

BTW I am not a caster, though I do have ranks in spellcraft and can pump it with extra skill points to better use the ring. Any of the caster-specific advice is still welcome though cause there are casters in the party that could use the info.

And if all else fails, there is the "run up with AMF on and grapple him" method.

EDIT: making items slotless would have no effect. You don't have to be wearing the magic items, all in range are affected.

Mind you, I'm not sure how it works, but what if the slotless items where in a bag of holding or some such, in other words a different dimension?

Choco
2010-11-15, 02:57 PM
They would be lost when the bag of holding is destroyed.

randomhero00
2010-11-15, 02:58 PM
They would be lost when the bag of holding is destroyed.
Do you still have to carry them with you? Put them somewhere else? Mind you, again, I've only recently learned of slotless items and have little idea on how they work.

Also I think a contingency spell on each item would work.

Choco
2010-11-15, 03:15 PM
Yes slotless items still have to be on you.

Contingency is also a good plan in general, I'll look into how we can do that too.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-15, 03:18 PM
If you disjunctioned a bag of holding does it implode?

Duke of URL
2010-11-15, 03:20 PM
Those are very good reasons. Sorry, I'm dumb. Thank you.

No, not dumb. There are too many rules to have them all memorized. For the record, ring of coutnerspells was my first thought, too, which is why I looked it up. :smallsmile:

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-11-15, 03:20 PM
Celerity + Biggest, baddest blast you have. If the blast is successful, the disjoiner is either dead (hopefully) or at least his spell fizzles due to the impossible concentration check.

Choco
2010-11-15, 03:24 PM
If you disjunctioned a bag of holding does it implode?

No, it just turns into a normal bag.

The text of Disjunction says that disjoined magic items turn back into normal items, so I don't think it would be different for a bag of holding. Only time they implode is when mixed with portable holes (or any other extra-dimensional space, depending on interpretation).

Eldariel
2010-11-15, 03:25 PM
Celerity + Biggest, baddest blast you have. If the blast is successful, the disjoiner is either dead (hopefully) or at least his spell fizzles due to the impossible concentration check.

However, the thing is most people trying to Disjoin you probably have some degree of protection from said blasts. Counters tend to be far less counterable.

Coidzor
2010-11-15, 03:26 PM
Do you still have to carry them with you? Put them somewhere else? Mind you, again, I've only recently learned of slotless items and have little idea on how they work.

Also I think a contingency spell on each item would work.

In that case you're better off going with the secure demi-plane with the Nightmare simulacrum astral projecting you and maybe even your buddies. That way you don't actually lose anything/much permanently to disjunction.

Duke of URL
2010-11-15, 03:31 PM
Celerity + Biggest, baddest blast you have. If the blast is successful, the disjoiner is either dead (hopefully) or at least his spell fizzles due to the impossible concentration check.

I'd rather go with contingency + "be somewhere else".

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-11-15, 03:33 PM
However, the thing is most people trying to Disjoin you probably have some degree of protection from said blasts. Counters tend to be far less counterable.Well, if the party has ninth level spells too, Celerity > Time Stop > Piranha Death Trap is difficult to avoid.

If that doesn't work (or the group doesn't have 9th level spells), Celerity + Dim Door will get you out of the way. Celerity + AMF will work maybe 3/4 the time, but then you're stuck in an AMF.

Keld Denar
2010-11-15, 03:44 PM
There are too many rules to have them all memorized. Speak for yourself! :smallcool:


For the record, ring of coutnerspells was my first thought, too, which is why I looked it up. :smallsmile:

Ring of Greater Counterspells (DMGII, MIC) works. It can hold higher level spells AND has a 1/day immediate action counterspell on top of the normal Ring of Counterspells automatic effect. Its delicious AND nutritious!

Duke of URL
2010-11-15, 03:50 PM
Speak for yourself! :smallcool:

Hey, I'm trying the cheer the guy up. Allow me some artistic license! :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2010-11-15, 03:53 PM
That was almost more self-depreciating humor in the fact that I spend way to damn much time on a hobby that isn't even produced any more...

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-15, 06:40 PM
Banning Disjunction because it's a really stupidly designed spell. :smallbiggrin: Or house rule it to automatically dispel active spells and suppress items for a certain number of rounds.

Duelward + Battlemagic Perception + Improved Counterspell?

Logalmier
2010-11-15, 07:04 PM
Banning Disjunction because it's a really stupidly designed spell. :smallbiggrin: Or house rule it to automatically dispel active spells and suppress items for a certain number of rounds.

Duelward + Battlemagic Perception + Improved Counterspell?

Epic Seed: Rule-0?

jumpet
2010-11-15, 07:08 PM
Banning Disjunction because it's a really stupidly designed spell. :smallbiggrin: Or house rule it to automatically dispel active spells and suppress items for a certain number of rounds.

Duelward + Battlemagic Perception + Improved Counterspell?

Yep

Seriously hit it with a house rule. ie the disenchantment is temporary.

Alternatively exert whatever pressure you deem neccessary to make the DM see the folly of employing this spell against your PC.

Choco
2010-11-15, 07:24 PM
Alternatively exert whatever pressure you deem neccessary to make the DM see the folly of employing this spell against your PC.

Perhaps just about any other time. It will likely only be used in the final BBEG fight of the campaign though, so after it's done we won't really have need for them anyway.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-15, 07:25 PM
Perhaps just about any other time. It will likely only be used in the final BBEG fight of the campaign though, so after it's done we won't really have need for them anyway.

No! Think of all the shinies you'll never get to use! :smalltongue:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-11-15, 07:27 PM
Get Sand Shaper, and after the Disjunction goes off you can decide to build a wall before it was cast to block it, thus the effect is retroactively reversed.

Winning initiative isn't hard, get a hummingbird familiar with the Elf Wizard 3 substitution level for +8, use Martial Wizard in UA/SRD to get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll, use Nerveskitter, and if you still think the opponent may beat you use your Moment of Prescience to boost it. When your opponent casts Disjunction, you can use a Celerity to counterspell it, or just cast a wall spell to block line of effect to his intended point of origin.

Animate a human commoner skeleton, give it a tower shield, and have it always ready an action to move between you and an enemy casting a spell with the tower shield in total cover mode. That will block line of effect, though for a disjunction it would have to be between you and the spell's point of origin. Have an undead minion with Spellcraft ranks who's Spellstitched with Benign Transposition, and have it always be readying an action to switch places with you from 50+ ft. away if you would be caught in a harmful area of effect. They would likely be extremely vulnerable to destruction, but it's a fairly easy solution usable even in the lower levels.

A Contingency for some sort of teleportation such as Dimension Door set to trigger if you would be caught within the area of a Disjunction should work just fine.

At that level you should just send your Astral Projection out adventuring anyway.

jumpet
2010-11-15, 07:32 PM
Additionally rolling a will save for every. single. magic. item. What a laugh.

If you can get the jump on this unsporting fellow then...

Hit with an enervation or energy drain and try to knock it off its spell slots. Assuming its not immune.

Even better, ye old ready to interrupt spellcasting.

mikau013
2010-11-15, 07:57 PM
Create cardboard copies of your party and let him waste his high lvl spell slots on fake copies!

EagleWiz
2010-11-15, 08:57 PM
Create cardboard copies of your party and let him waste his high lvl spell slots on fake copies!

Make said copies magic items with bonuses (boni?) on thier disguise checks for even more fun.

Logalmier
2010-11-15, 09:43 PM
Use Astral Projection. Even if your stuff is fried, guess what? They were just copies! Whee! Congrats, you cost me, like, 1k.

Also, gnomes.

sambo.
2010-11-15, 10:41 PM
Play a Noctumancer, or if DM is afraid of your unlimited power a Shadowcaster with warpspell.

Noctumancers suffer from being unable to learn 9th level spells/mysteries unless you are allowed some Precocious Apprentice cheese.

then you have to choose: spell or mystery, you can't have both.


Or prep disjunction and just use a ready action ever turn to use as a counterspell.

so basically, all your character EVER does is "ready action to counterspell", EVERY SINGLE ROUND?

i still rekon Celerity is probably the best, all-round counter. Warp Spell mystery would work, assuming you win the opposed caster level check.

Reaving Dispell would be another one. then you could throw it straight back at them :)

Psyren
2010-11-16, 12:13 AM
Noctumancers suffer from being unable to learn 9th level spells/mysteries unless you are allowed some Precocious Apprentice cheese.

then you have to choose: spell or mystery, you can't have both.

Actually, Shadowcasters can qualify for either side of Mystic Theurge (ToM pg. 117) allowing you to do Shadowcaster 3/Wizard 3/Noctumancer 10/MT 4 for cheeseless dual 9s.


so basically, all your character EVER does is "ready action to counterspell", EVERY SINGLE ROUND?

If you're smart, your familiar does it (with GDM) while you cast normally. :smalltongue: