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randomhero00
2010-11-15, 02:47 PM
Would you allow this in your campaign? the philosophy being that death and undeath exist, therefor they are natural. I know this goes against RAW. I know there's homebrew, I'm not asking about that. I'm wondering your opinions and counter arguments before I bring it up with my DM.

Basically I'd like to be a sentient, free willed, undead...that's a druid and can wildshape into undead animal forms. Probably neutral evil. Worships the winter/death cycle of nature. Has an undead animal campanion.

Volos
2010-11-15, 02:57 PM
It's called a Blighter, and I have allowed it before. Even once in a neutral (not quite evil) party. She had to hide her nature, which was very very difficult, but it worked for a while.

randomhero00
2010-11-15, 03:00 PM
It's called a Blighter, and I have allowed it before. Even once in a neutral (not quite evil) party. She had to hide her nature, which was very very difficult, but it worked for a while.

Blighter, homebrew or from a book? Never heard of it before.

WarKitty
2010-11-15, 03:01 PM
The Blighter doesn't sound quite like what the OP was asking for. The blighter is more of an anti-druid that's focused on destroying nature. Whereas this sounds more like a druid focused on a different aspect of nature.

Personally...it would depend on how good a backstory the player could spin.

Edit: Blighter is Complete Divine

gooddragon1
2010-11-15, 03:04 PM
Would you allow this in your campaign? the philosophy being that death and undeath exist, therefor they are natural. I know this goes against RAW. I know there's homebrew, I'm not asking about that. I'm wondering your opinions and counter arguments before I bring it up with my DM.

Basically I'd like to be a sentient, free willed, undead...that's a druid and can wildshape into undead animal forms. Probably neutral evil. Worships the winter/death cycle of nature. Has an undead animal campanion.

Uncarnate Druid (http://s6.zetaboards.com/UNR_Dragon_Club/topic/8648007/1/)

Questionably balanced. Then again, so are regular druids.

subject42
2010-11-15, 03:05 PM
I think it's Eberron that has a faction called the Children of Winter or something like that. It might be worth checking out for help digging up fluff-based justification.

Evil DM Mark3
2010-11-15, 03:08 PM
Libris Mortis has feats for druids that may be useful. And no, a Blighter is not what you are looking for, not even close.

Urpriest
2010-11-15, 03:09 PM
There's a feat: Corrupted Wild Shape in Libris Mortis that does precisely what you're looking for. Blighter is less worthwhile, but I suppose some builds might be able to spare the levels but not the feat.

randomhero00
2010-11-15, 03:10 PM
Libris Mortis has feats for druids that may be useful. And no, a Blighter is not what you are looking for, not even close.

eh does it allow them to be undead though and provide the fluff/rp reasons?

Personally I think it makes perfect sense. The druid is the ultimate predator like class, its not a far jump to want to become closer to death.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-15, 03:11 PM
Wasn't there a Druid Variant in some Dragon magazine that was just this?... Wild Reaper or some such?

Optimator
2010-11-15, 03:12 PM
While thematically it doesn't make a lick of sense, it is certainly possible. Were I DMing and a player wanted to do this, they'd better have a hell of a reason and they better understand they are an aberrant Druid. But yeah, I guess I'd allow it with those things understood.

Aren't there feats for undead wildshaping somewhere? Hell, look at the sample Walker in the Wastes!

Zen Monkey
2010-11-15, 03:14 PM
the philosophy being that death and undeath exist, therefor they are natural.

I'm not clear on this part. Everything everywhere is natural, because it exists? What is unnatural then? I'd have to say that undead are unnatural, because it is a magically-caused state that is not part of the normal life cycle.

I'd would think the roleplay requires a special sort of not-dead that isn't essentially an animated zombie. Something like a ghost would work better, for a person who died and whose spirit lingers on to protect an area. 'Rotting corpse' doesn't really mesh well with 'loves sunshine, good with animals.'

randomhero00
2010-11-15, 03:17 PM
I'm not clear on this part. Everything everywhere is natural, because it exists? What is unnatural then? I'd have to say that undead are unnatural, because it is a magically-caused state that is not part of the normal life cycle.

I'd would think the roleplay requires a special sort of not-dead that isn't essentially an animated zombie. Something like a ghost would work better, for a person who died and whose spirit lingers on to protect an area. 'Rotting corpse' doesn't really mesh well with 'loves sunshine, good with animals.'

Druids are about nature and the cycles. Death and destruction are very much a part of nature. Undead exist naturally. They aren't from another plane. Magic is natural too. They use it. Now aberattions and such from other planes would still be considered unnatural. Anything not natural to the material plane.

Druids are essentially guardians of the material plane. But undeath/death IS a part of the material plane.

Zen Monkey
2010-11-15, 03:49 PM
Druids are about nature and the cycles. Death and destruction are very much a part of nature. Undead exist naturally. They aren't from another plane. Magic is natural too. They use it. Now aberattions and such from other planes would still be considered unnatural. Anything not natural to the material plane.

Druids are essentially guardians of the material plane. But undeath/death IS a part of the material plane.

Undead exist, but are created by magic and powered by an extraplanar source (negative energy). Magic missiles and glitterdust also exist, but are not natural. Otherwise, they'd just be called 'science' and not 'magic.' It's a little strange to say that the natural life cycle of an animal is: born or hatched, then grows up and reproduces, then grows old, then dies, then a wizard comes along and crushes up a gem and reanimates them with a spell.

randomhero00
2010-11-15, 04:00 PM
Undead exist, but are created by magic and powered by an extraplanar source (negative energy). Magic missiles and glitterdust also exist, but are not natural. Otherwise, they'd just be called 'science' and not 'magic.' It's a little strange to say that the natural life cycle of an animal is: born or hatched, then grows up and reproduces, then grows old, then dies, then a wizard comes along and crushes up a gem and reanimates them with a spell.

Yes but the Weave, which is animating them and making all magic possible, a wider view if you will, is natural. Druids can do all sorts of magicy stuff. Undead is not much of a leap.

Urpriest
2010-11-15, 04:16 PM
Yes but the Weave, which is animating them and making all magic possible, a wider view if you will, is natural. Druids can do all sorts of magicy stuff. Undead is not much of a leap.

Actually, there isn't much Weave-manipulation that Druids can do. They don't get Antimagic field for example, IIRC, and if they get Dispel Magic at all it's later than normal.

Kondziu
2010-11-15, 04:16 PM
Still, creating undead is, using words from OotS, "raping the cycle of life with unclean power". Undeath is breaking out of the natural cycle of life, therefore unnatural.

Coidzor
2010-11-15, 04:30 PM
Still, creating undead is, using words from OotS, "raping the cycle of life with unclean power". Undeath is breaking out of the natural cycle of life, therefore unnatural.

Well, that last bit about it being unclean and the first bit about rape are hyperbole and setting dependent.


Undead exist, but are created by magic and powered by an extraplanar source (negative energy). Magic missiles and glitterdust also exist, but are not natural. Otherwise, they'd just be called 'science' and not 'magic.' It's a little strange to say that the natural life cycle of an animal is: born or hatched, then grows up and reproduces, then grows old, then dies, then a wizard comes along and crushes up a gem and reanimates them with a spell.

Well, except for the naturally occurring ones which no magical expenditure is necessary to create and the fact that magic is either a field generated by the planet/plane like the electromagnetic field generated by earth or a fundamental part of the natural universe in most of the established settings that deal with the nature of magic at all.

The negative, positive, fire, water, wind, and earth planes are all extremely natural as their confluence is what creates material planes. The material plane and natural world can't exist without creation, destruction, and the primary building blocks.

So, in actuality, owlbears are more aberrations that must be destroyed due to their status as the tortured and constantly in maddening pain creations of drunk wizards (by generic fluff anyway) than revenants and ghosts which occur without prompting from an external source after death.

Sir Swindle89
2010-11-15, 04:41 PM
'loves sunshine, good with animals.'

Real men worship Obad-Hai and tell sunshine and any animal to weak to properly defend it's self to shove it.


Aside, It wouldn't be a far streach to say some undead like ghosts are "natural" undead. They come about because of force of will (will is natural) or because of strong emotion (emotion is natural). So it wouldn't be that far of a streach for a person who was a druid in life what was suddenly thrust into one of these situations to become a representative or gaurdian of this part of the "natural" cycle just as he was a gaurdian of nature in a more traditional sense in life.

Urpriest
2010-11-15, 04:43 PM
As guardians of nature, Druids will not necessarily support undead, since even "naturally occurring" undead are formed by the desires and life choices of humanoids, which aren't generally part of a non-urban druid's sphere of interest.

That said, there will be many settings where Druids specifically oppose undead. Undead are tied to disease, they aren't part of food chains, they're immortal in a way that few natural things should be. All of these are decent thematic reasons for druids to oppose undead. On the other hand, a more Celtic of Voudoun society would probably contain druids that embraced undeath, seeing it as part of their realm of influence.

Think about it this way: Lords of Madness contains a druid order dedicated to stamping out aberrations, as well as various options that involve channeling the wrath of nature to wipe out such creatures. On the other hand, it also contains the Aberration Wild Shape feat. It's setting dependent. Tell us what druids are ok with in your setting and we can tell you what would be ok for a druid to do.

Tokuhara
2010-11-15, 04:51 PM
I actually tried this: Your DM will HATE you.

Frozen + Primal + Corrupted Wildshape on Cryohydra = DMG Hurled at you

Admiral Squish
2010-11-15, 04:53 PM
Well, if you're going for a death theme, you could try Child of Winter and ther rest of that chain from the ECS. It's not undead, rather, it focuses on vermin, but it's thematically appropriate for a druid focused on the 'death' part of the cycle of life and death...

gooddragon1
2010-11-15, 05:15 PM
As guardians of nature, Druids will not necessarily support undead, since even "naturally occurring" undead are formed by the desires and life choices of humanoids, which aren't generally part of a non-urban druid's sphere of interest.

That said, there will be many settings where Druids specifically oppose undead. Undead are tied to disease, they aren't part of food chains, they're immortal in a way that few natural things should be. All of these are decent thematic reasons for druids to oppose undead. On the other hand, a more Celtic of Voudoun society would probably contain druids that embraced undeath, seeing it as part of their realm of influence.

Think about it this way: Lords of Madness contains a druid order dedicated to stamping out aberrations, as well as various options that involve channeling the wrath of nature to wipe out such creatures. On the other hand, it also contains the Aberration Wild Shape feat. It's setting dependent. Tell us what druids are ok with in your setting and we can tell you what would be ok for a druid to do.

You guys really ought to look at the uncarnate druid link I posted. It's probably exactly what he's asking for.

gorfnab
2010-11-15, 05:21 PM
A Druid/ Planar Shepherd with the chosen planes of Mabar or Dolurrh would fit for an undead focused druid.

Fhaolan
2010-11-15, 05:52 PM
You're loading a lot onto the term 'natural'. This is actually a standard trick used in marketing (and occult) debates.

Scientifically anything that can be proved emphirically is 'natural'. If something provably happens, or exists, it by definition is 'natural'. Therefore it is perfectly valid for a foodproduct that includes large amounts of polymer to be labeled 'all natural' because polymers exist therefore they are natural. In occult debates, something can only be 'supernatural' if it cannot ever happen, or can be proven to not exist, which invalidates the debate.

In a world where undead exist, they are by this definiton 'natural'. Using the same logic, magic is natural, gods are natural, even the creatures from the Far Realms are 'natural', simply because their existance can be proven (in game of course).

I've seen the term 'subnatural' thrown around a bit to cover this. This being the subset of 'natural' that does not include what used to be called 'supernatural'.

In other words, using 'natural' to define a Druid is a bit of a red herring when you're willing to mess around with the term 'natural' like that.

In the same way it's possible to use the term 'living rock' and then insist on that particular rock having biological processes. :smallsmile:

Milo v3
2010-11-15, 10:03 PM
Has anyone here heard of "Frank and K"? They wrote the sourcebook "Tome of Necromancy" and "Book Of Elements". Inside of them it states that Negative energy is basically an element (Just as fire and water). Also undead are just living people animated by negative energy, and "The Living" are just dead people animated by positive energy.

Alleran
2010-11-15, 11:33 PM
Forgotten Realms has a Druid Lich by the name of Lossarwyn (IIRC). However, although he says that he draws power from nature rather than a deity, it's actually a god fulfilling his requests (which one is unknown, and NDA'd as far as I'm aware).

Psyren
2010-11-16, 12:29 AM
Undead exist naturally. They aren't from another plane.

They sort of are; at least their energy is.

Coidzor
2010-11-16, 12:33 AM
They sort of are; at least their energy is.

The problem with that as a criterion is that positive energy is the energy of living creatures. And also from another plane. And the natural world is made up of the four elements blended together. and also from 4 other planes. :/

Lev
2010-11-16, 12:36 AM
Druids are about nature and the cycles. Death and destruction are very much a part of nature. Undead exist naturally. They aren't from another plane. Magic is natural too. They use it. Now aberattions and such from other planes would still be considered unnatural. Anything not natural to the material plane.

Druids are essentially guardians of the material plane. But undeath/death IS a part of the material plane.
So you're saying that druids cannot exist on other planes?

I'd argue that a virus isn't alive.

Sitzkrieg
2010-11-16, 12:53 AM
Lord_Gareth of these very forums had the same idea, though it was implemented as a PrC, and only gains the ability to temporarily act as an Undead. Please don't necromancy the thread, but feel free to take a look, it's pretty cool: Children of the Mausoleum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116191)

AslanCross
2010-11-16, 01:17 AM
I think it's Eberron that has a faction called the Children of Winter or something like that. It might be worth checking out for help digging up fluff-based justification.

The Children of Winter are druids who emphasize death and the end of all things as part of nature, but I don't think they allow the use of undead.

faceroll
2010-11-16, 02:25 AM
The dry lich presented in Sandstorm uses a druid 5 base.

Divayth Fyr
2010-11-16, 04:48 AM
Lord_Gareth of these very forums had the same idea, though it was implemented as a PrC, and only gains the ability to temporarily act as an Undead. Please don't necromancy the thread, but feel free to take a look, it's pretty cool: Children of the Mausoleum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116191)
There is also a second homebrewed prestige class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168881) for druids who embrace undeath (although it is more connected with plants)

hamishspence
2010-11-16, 04:48 AM
Forgotten Realms has a Druid Lich by the name of Lossarwyn (IIRC). However, although he says that he draws power from nature rather than a deity, it's actually a god fulfilling his requests (which one is unknown, and NDA'd as far as I'm aware).

Where's it said that it's actually a god fulfilling his requests?

In Champions of Ruin, it specifies that he's "teaching students how to draw power from nature rather than a deity"- does that mean he and all his students, have been conned?

Alleran
2010-11-16, 04:59 AM
Where's it said that it's actually a god fulfilling his requests?

In Champions of Ruin, it specifies that he's "teaching students how to draw power from nature rather than a deity"- does that mean he and all his students, have been conned?
Yes.

Forgotten Realms canon does not allow druids, clerics and/or other divine casting classes to draw their powers from nature, "ideals" (i.e. being a cleric without a deity and just devoted to "neutral good" or "lawful evil"), or anything to that effect. You must draw divine power from a deity (or, I suppose, a devil like Asmodeus assuming that you have a link to him that emulates clerical/druidic/whatever powers, but it must be something with divine essence). That Undead Lich-Druid is being conned by whatever deity is granting the spells (and the deity is likely doing so for his own ends). He obviously doesn't know that he's being conned, but he's being conned all the same.

Coidzor
2010-11-16, 05:04 AM
Yes.

Forgotten Realms canon does not allow druids, clerics and/or other divine casting classes to draw their powers from nature, "ideals" (i.e. being a cleric without a deity and just devoted to "neutral good" or "lawful evil"), or anything to that effect. You must draw divine power from a deity (or, I suppose, a devil like Asmodeus assuming that you have a link to him that emulates clerical/druidic/whatever powers, but it must be something with divine essence). That Undead Lich-Druid is being conned by whatever deity is granting the spells (and the deity is likely doing so for his own ends). He obviously doesn't know that he's being conned, but he's being conned all the same.

Specific trumps general. The example is given as a special case. So you have no actual justification for your position, considering that if this were the case, it would have been made clear that he was being conned given the way they usually write their books.

Alleran
2010-11-16, 05:42 AM
Specific trumps general. The example is given as a special case. So you have no actual justification for your position, considering that if this were the case, it would have been made clear that he was being conned given the way they usually write their books.
Nope, it's been called out as wrong before by Sean K Reynolds (here (http://seankreynoldsboards.yuku.com/topic/868/t/FR-Divine-magic-in-Faerun-without-the-gods.html?page=1)). George Krashos also agrees that the spells are coming from a deity (here (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4517&whichpage=4)), and the creator of the FR setting, Ed Greenwood, has said before that divine power comes from a deity (referenced here (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4517&whichpage=5), with the exact wording of at least one of his replies - and there has been more than one that deals with this - further down). Deities play a one-upmanship game, so by fueling the power of divine spells that appear to come from a cause (where mortals are concerned), they achieve their own goals. Even Ur-Priests are getting their powers from an evil deity who wants his own ends accomplished in FR. The Realms works differently to the rest of D&D regarding clerics/druids/rangers and divine spells.

Coidzor
2010-11-16, 05:44 AM
Actually... upon reviewing those links.

...There's nothing really there other than that there were people who were upset by this.

hamishspence
2010-11-16, 05:46 AM
I checked- at no point in the first thread link does Sean K Reynolds explicitly say that all that text about the Ice Lich, the Justice of Weald and Woe, and Malkizid, is wrong.

The second thread link mentions a lot of theories- but doesn't provide an explicit answer.

And from the third thread link:


As I’ve said before, there are secrets about the gods I can’t yet reveal, but all of this boils down to: MOST divine casters get their spells by praying directly to a deity and serving that deity adequately (serve poorly, and your prayers may not be answered at all; serve superbly, and you may even receive extra magic), but A FEW divine casters may, for indefinite periods, receive spells when venerating only a cause, broad aspect, or even a dead or “the wrong” god."

Alleran
2010-11-16, 06:00 AM
I checked- at no point in the first thread link does Sean K Reynolds explicitly say that all that text about the Ice Lich, the Justice of Weald and Woe, and Malkizid, is wrong.
He notes that it's bad, and that he forwarded it to Chris. Unfortunately, no reply came back in that thread.


The second thread link mentions a lot of theories- but doesn't provide an explicit answer.
George Krashos is a designer who agrees that they're drawing power from a god - just not what god, exactly. There's a difference between disagreeing (or fence-sitting) over the particular deity and disagreeing over the power source.


And from the third thread link:
Don't ignore the earlier part:

"...in other words, yes, divine casters must worship a specific deity and not a cause or broad aspect."

"...because in the endless game of one-up-god-ship that Faerűnian deities play, subtly struggling for supremacy over each other, dominance over intelligent races and events that affect their societies, and defense of personal portfolios, gods (and their loyal servant creatures) will often grant spells to mortals “out of the blue,” or under false pretenses, or whatever - - just to try to influence those events and achieve some unknown-to-mortals aim or temporary victory in the ongoing godly struggle."

The exceptions are still drawing their power from a divine source. Defaulting back to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (p.22-23), all clerics and druids (and other divine spellcasters) are getting their power from a deity. The deity, however, because of the games and struggle for dominance, just isn't letting on that they're the ones doing the providing. A cleric appears to be gaining his power because he's NG, but his spells are in fact sourced in some deity that has an interest in providing him spells... just like what is happening with Lossarwyn. Both the cleric and Lossarwyn would still register as "Faithless" and thus don't have a god, but there is still a god providing them with power. They fall under the "a few" clause that Greenwood mentions, because of whatever deity is playing games.

Coidzor
2010-11-16, 06:04 AM
He notes that it's bad, and that he forwarded it to Chris. Unfortunately, no reply came back in that thread.

Yes. That just indicates that he disliked it. Not that it was wrong.


George Krashos is a designer who agrees that they're drawing power from a god - just not what god, exactly. There's a difference between disagreeing (or fence-sitting) over the particular deity and disagreeing over the power source.

And he's in a context where he's just shooting the breeze with a bunch of other conspiracy theorists rather than out and out stating that the text is wrong, rather than speaking authoritatively.

Alleran
2010-11-16, 06:08 AM
Yes. That just indicates that he disliked it. Not that it was wrong.
Yes, it being bad because it directly conflicts with canon, ergo some other explanation is necessary (which falls into line with Krashos in the second link).

Coidzor
2010-11-16, 06:09 AM
Why are we even discussing this? We have no idea if this is even taking place in FR.

So we have no indication of the eligibility of Mr. elf-supremacist lich to get spells in another setting save by examining the particulars of a given setting.

I can't even tell if the original post was an argument for or against non-FR lich druids. :smallconfused:

Alleran
2010-11-16, 06:14 AM
And yet it made it into print. And without the usual speciousness.
Hence it being a canon conflict, and the query being directed to Greenwood in '05, not three months after CoR's publish note (going off the copyright, which says May 2005). And the reply that came back from him (July 2005) was that all divine casters have a god providing power in some way, shape or form.


Why are we even discussing this?
You and hamishspence called my comments into question. :)

(Funky - the forums can't just turn a :) into a :smallsmile: , it seems.)


I can't even tell if the original post was an argument for or against non-FR lich druids.
I was providing an example of a printed source showing an undead druid lich existing. It exists in at least one D&D world, so I thought that I'd mention the example (I didn't see it mentioned elsewhere in the thread). Other settings may obviously be different. :smallsmile:

hamishspence
2010-11-16, 06:26 AM
Hence it being a canon conflict, and the query being directed to Greenwood in '05, not three months after CoR's publish note (going off the copyright, which says May 2005). And the reply that came back from him (July 2005) was that all divine casters have a god providing power in some way, shape or form.

There was never an "official" statement by WoTC one way or another though.

And even on the Candlekeep forum, it mentioned the possibility of "near-gods" like archdevils, being the source of power, rather than "true gods".

And Malkizid himself- who doesn't worship a deity- but gets divine spells.

Alleran
2010-11-16, 06:34 AM
There was never an "official" statement by WoTC one way or another though.
Greenwood's statements are official canon. It's part of the agreement that he had with TSR (and which carried over to WotC).


And even on the Candlekeep forum, it mentioned the possibility of "near-gods" like archdevils, being the source of power, rather than "true gods".
Yes, a couple of books (I think F&P, and PGtF maybe) mention that archdevils can, in exchange for a "pact" of some sort, provide divine spells, but the individual goes to the Hells when he dies. And that gets into the sticky issue of whether or not archdevils and so on qualify as gods or not (do they have divine ranks or not, do divine ranks make them gods, should they be seen as something more than or less than gods... there was another thread about whether Asmodeus is a god or not just last night, I think). And whether the spells are being provided by the archdevil in particular or through a god who's got an agreement with the archdevil, and probably half a dozen other possibilities.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-11-16, 06:38 AM
DragoonWraith goes deep into the matter of druid necromancy with the Deadwood PrC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9202219&postcount=17).

hamishspence
2010-11-16, 06:39 AM
Greenwood's statements are official canon. It's part of the agreement that he had with TSR (and which carried over to WotC).

And is this:


in other words, yes, divine casters must worship a specific deity and not a cause or broad aspect.

the statement being interpreted as

"Official canon: Without exception, the power for divine casting comes from a deity"?

Because it doesn't seem to say that.

Alleran
2010-11-16, 06:48 AM
the statement being interpreted as

"Official canon: Without exception, the power for divine casting comes from a deity"?

Because it doesn't seem to say that.
"...because in the endless game of one-up-god-ship that Faerűnian deities play, subtly struggling for supremacy over each other, dominance over intelligent races and events that affect their societies, and defense of personal portfolios, gods (and their loyal servant creatures) will often grant spells to mortals “out of the blue,” or under false pretenses, or whatever - - just to try to influence those events and achieve some unknown-to-mortals aim or temporary victory in the ongoing godly struggle."

The entire reply is directly speaking to where clerics and druids in FR get their divine spells (which is the divine power) from.

hamishspence
2010-11-16, 07:25 AM
But none of the reply is an explicit "no being can draw divine power from anything other than a deity".

Sure, deities might grant divine power while concealing the fact that it's them that are granting it.

But that's not the same thing as saying "always, when there is no apparent divine source, a deity is behind it"

Also- the last 3.5 book published (Elder Evils) has one (Sertruous) who originally introduced people in D&D worlds to the concept of drawing divine power from a non-deity source.

And there is a section in the description of every Elder Evil adventure, for adapting it to Faerun.

So- a case can be made that it's possible, even in Faerun (if very rare) to draw divine power from a non-deity source.

Alleran
2010-11-16, 07:44 AM
But none of the reply is an explicit "no being can draw divine power from anything other than a deity".

Sure, deities might grant divine power while concealing the fact that it's them that are granting it.

But that's not the same thing as saying "always, when there is no apparent divine source, a deity is behind it"
I would disagree. The quote, with some expanded stuff that I didn't include initially for space reasons:

"because in the endless game of one-up-god-ship that Faerűnian deities play, subtly struggling for supremacy over each other, dominance over intelligent races and events that affect their societies, and defense of personal portfolios, gods (and their loyal servant creatures) will often grant spells to mortals “out of the blue,” or under false pretenses, or whatever - - just to try to influence those events and achieve some unknown-to-mortals aim or temporary victory in the ongoing godly struggle. As I’ve said before, there are secrets about the gods I can’t yet reveal, but all of this boils down to: MOST divine casters get their spells by praying directly to a deity and serving that deity adequately (serve poorly, and your prayers may not be answered at all; serve superbly, and you may even receive extra magic), but A FEW divine casters may, for indefinite periods, receive spells when venerating only a cause, broad aspect, or even a dead or “the wrong” god.""

Bolded parts are obviously my emphasis.

The FRCS is clear on the issue that divine power (i.e. divine magic, divine spells) comes from deities, from the patron god of the cleric/druid/ranger/paladin/whatever. Archdevils are an odd spot, yes, but given that divine ranks are usually added to them (as I recall), I would make the case that they are a complex form of the "counts as" rule insofar as gaining spells are concerned, and they have special circumstances around them when it goes to getting the spells in the first place (you commonly need a pact - plain worship won't do it). Put simply, they can be treated as gods of some kind and thus don't violate the "must have a god to give you spell powah" canon.

The reply notes clearly that some divine casters do, at times, receive spells when they venerate only cause, broad aspects, or even dead gods (LEoF includes a feat that allows a character to draw divine power from a dead god, or more specifically the husk of them that's floating in the Astral Plane - presumably, they're sucking up the "lingering essence" or the god might be Not-Quite-Dead or whatever). These spells, however, are not coming from the cause or the ideal, even though that's what the character is venerating/worshipping. They're still coming from a god of some description, who is providing power for their own reasons. And may well stop providing power when it no longer suits them to do so.


So- a case can be made that it's possible, even in Faerun (if very rare) to draw divine power from a non-deity source.
Sertrous is an anomaly - in adapting him to Faerun, one would have to take into account that the common concept as presented doesn't function. FR is an exception to how D&D clerics and divine spells work. Adapting Sertrous to FR requires adapting him to the rules of that setting, not the other way around. Other than some of the the Faithless (and it is Faithless, not False - False are those who keep switching deities and/or betray their deity) going to him when they die, he would have to adapt to the FR rules, rather than the setting and adapting to him (he is, after all, the immigrant/outsider in this case, so adding him to the setting requires that he conform to the rules of that setting, just as he would have to conform to the rules of Greyhawk, or Eberron, or Dragonlance, or whatever setting the game is being run in).

In fact, where the Faithless can go (to his realm in the Abyss) sounds very much alike what happens to those who make a pact with an archdevil. You can draw divine spells from them, but the cost is that you don't go to the Fugue Plain when you die. You go to the Abyss (with archdevil pact-sufferers going to the Hells as the new whipping boy for said devil). Given that archdevils have some relationship to the gods, and can in some ways be seen as deities in their own right (or at least sharing some rules with them - it obviously varies), Sertrous likely falls under the same umbrella.

Sitzkrieg
2010-11-16, 01:11 PM
Can we drop this? Or at least make a new thread for it? I'm pretty sure this is irrelevant to the OP's question.

In any case, I would allow it. It seems like a really cool idea, as long as the rest of the party is cool with it, because having undead characters can be objectionable for the other players. Unless your DM is very picky about maintaining control over his/her world, I think it would fly.