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Moose Man
2010-11-15, 05:39 PM
Mira, A Customized Hobgoblin

Hobgoblin Race
+2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int
Medium Size Humanoid (Goblinoid)
Base Land Speed: 40 ft
Bonus Feat: At first, third and sixth level, hobgoblins can choose one feat from the following list (provided that they meet the prerequisites) as a bonus feat. This feat represents their specific style of combat training, but does not affect what classes or other feats they can take.
•Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Improved Grapple, Snatch Arrows, Lightning Reflexes, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot On the Run, Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Shield Proficiency, Improved Shield Bash, Tower Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Toughness, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus

Racial Bonuses:
•+4 to move silently
•+1 on attacks vs. creatures with the
(water) subtype.
•–2 penalty on all saving throws vs. the spell, spell-like
abilities, & supernatural abilities that have the
(water) subtype or are generated by creatures with
the (water) subtype.
• Resistance to Fire 5.
Improved Flanking: Due to extensive combat formation training, hobgoblins are very effective at flanking opponents. They receive a +4 attack bonus when flanking instead of a +2 bonus.
Keen Vision: A hobgoblin can see three times as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Military Training: Hobgoblins automatically have proficiency in light & medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).
Dwarf Hatred: Like all Goblins, Hobgoblins and Dwarves have a relationship of hate and war. They gain a +1 racial attack bonus against Dwarves.
LA: +1

Mira's Character Sheet:
Crusader/Warblade 1, Unarmed Swordsage/Warblade 5

{table=head]Ability|Score|Modifier

Str|19|4

Dex|20|5

Con|20|5

Int|20|5

Wis|18|4

Cha|16|3[/table]

{table=head] |Amount

HP|102

AC|21

Speed|40'

Initiative|+11[/table]

Saves: Fortitude 10, Reflex 15, Will 9

Skills: Balance 14, Climb 13, Concentration 14, Diplomacy 12, Hide 14, Jump 13, Listen 13, Move Silently 18, Tumble 14, Speak Language 9

Languages:Abyssal, Auran, Aquan, Celestial, Draconic, Common, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Gnoll, Halfling, Ignan, Infernal, Orc

Feats (can be changed):
Power Attack [Racial], Improved Bull Rush, Weapon Focus (greatsword) [Swordsage], Superior Unarmed Strike, Cleave [Racial], Leap Attack, Shock Trooper [Racial]

Maneuvers (Crusader):
{table=head]Name|Effect

Crusader's Strike|Attack Heals 1d6 Dmg/Initiator Level

Vanguard Strike|If your attack hits, allies gain +4 to target

Douse the Flames|If your attack hits, Target can’t make AoO for 1 Round

Leading the Attack|If your attack hits, allies gain +4 to target

Stone Bones|If your attack hits, gain DR 5/Adamantine[/table]

Maneuvers (Warblade):
{table=head]Name|Effect

Sudden Jump|Jump as a Swift Action
Steel Wind|Attack 2 Opponents

Steely Strike|+4 to Attack Roll, Other Opponents gain a +4 on Attack Rolls against you

Stone Vise|+1d6 Dmg, Target’s Speed Drops to 0 feet

Mountain Hammer|+2d6 Dmg, Ignores DR and Hardness

Iron Heart Surge|End 1 Effect, +2 to Attacks[/table]

Maneuvers (Swordsage)
{table=head]Name|Effect

Blistering Florish (Su)|All creatures in a 30’ area must make a Fort save (DC 11 + Wis Modifier) or be dazzled for 1 minute.

Burning Blade (Su)|Extra 1d6 +1/Initiator Level Fire Dmg for the Turn

Charging Minotaur|2d6 Dmg on a Bull Rush

Clinging Shadow Strike (Su)|+1d6 Dmg, and Target Must Make a Fort Save (DC 11 + Wis Modifier) or suffer a 20% Miss Chance to Melee and Ranged attacks

Death Mark (Su)|Attack sets opponent on fire. 6d6 Fire Dmg, and the fire Spreads. DC 17 Reflex save. to see the spread table*


Emerald Razor|Turn Melee Strike into Touch Attack

Flashing Sun|Additional Melee Attack, -2 Penalty

Shadow Blade Technique|Roll 2d20. Pick the higher; resolve as normal. Pick the lower; add 1d6 Extra Cold Dmg.

Strength Draining Strike (Su)|Extra 4 Str Dmg, Fort Save (DC 13 + Wis Modifier) halves Str Dmg[/table]

*Spread Table
{table=head]Size|Range

Small or Smaller|5'

Medium|10'

Large|20'

Huge|30'

Gargantuan|40'

Colossal|50'[/table]

Stances:
{table=head]Name|Effect

Stonefoot|+2 to Str checks, +2 AC larger opponents

Punishing|+1d6 DMG, -2 AC

Martial Spirit|+2 Hp/Melee Attack

Island Of Blades|If adjacent to the same creature, automatic flank

Child of Shadow (Su)|Move 10 ft, Gain Concealment
Pearl Of Black Doubt|Gain +2 AC Each time a foe misses you[/table]

Need to be able to destroy up to CR 20's.

Edit: changed feats, and added some maneuvers (swordsage).

Keld Denar
2010-11-15, 05:44 PM
I'd pick up Emerald Razor and Baffling Defense for sure. ER is a big damage move with Power Attack, and BD is nice for negating crits and such assuming you have a decent Sense Motive bonus.

Am I reading this right that you are a level 5 gestalt character trying to take out CR13s? Dear lord I hope the one you find isn't a Hezeru...

Coidzor
2010-11-15, 05:52 PM
I'm not very familiar with TOB, so... how are you getting natural weapons?


All Swordsage maneuvers are up for grabs, need to be able to destroy up to cr 20's.

...You want to reliably take out pre-epic enemies with a gestalt character that isn't even maxed out in E6? :smalleek:

SurlySeraph
2010-11-15, 05:54 PM
OK. First off, what level are you exactly? I'm reading this as a 5th level character with LA +1 (1 Crusader or Warblade level, then 4 Unarmed Swordsage or Warblade levels). Or possibly a gestalt Crusader 1/ Unarmed Swordsage 4// Warblade 5. Or Crusader 1/ Warblade 5/ Unarmed Swordsage 4. Please clarify that.
Whatever the class levels, you appear to have more ranks in Move Silently than is allowed. Unless those are your skill bonuses, not your skill ranks.

Quick Draw does nothing useful for a straightforward combat build. If you'll be fighting with a greatsword, you don't need Improved Natural Weapons (I assume you mean Improved Natural Attack). Monkey Grip isn't worthwhile; a large greatsword does an average 3.5 damage more than a medium greatsword, and you'll take a -2 attack penalty from using Monkey Grip. Compare Power Attack: power attacking for 2 with a 2-handed weapon gives you an extra 4 damage.

If you're 5th-level, your maneuvers look pretty good, though I'd skip on Charging Minotaur. And take Keld's advice.

Moose Man
2010-11-15, 05:55 PM
unarmed swordsage. remove light armor proficiency and gain a monk's unarmed strike progression. no flurry though..

Keld Denar
2010-11-15, 06:02 PM
UAS are treated as a manufactured weapon in the sense that you make iteratives with it (instead of a single attack per round per weapon like other natural weapons). So...you wouldn't be gaining any extra attacks per round with your UAS unless you are TWFing (Greatsword/UAS is a valid TWF combo).

Even so, your UAS damage is only 1d8 base at ECL5, which INA increases to 2d6. Not terrible, but not amazing either.

Coidzor
2010-11-15, 06:05 PM
unarmed swordsage. remove light armor proficiency and gain a monk's unarmed strike progression. no flurry though..

Why are you monkey gripping and grabbing Improved Natural Attack? (or is there a different feat actually called Improved Natural Weapons?) I think Superior Unarmed Strike would work better for just upping the damage dice for your unarmed strike anyway. None of your stances or maneuvers appear to allow you to use both your unarmed strike and your great sword together, either.

Also, monkey gripping is inferior to strong-arm bracers or power attack, fwiw.

Also, what does quick draw grant you? You already have your unarmed strikes constantly available (or you can drop what's in your hands as a free action if you don't want to kick or headbutt or elbow slam or knee or body slam or shoulder check or beardfist) You can draw your single great sword as part of a move action due to your BAB anyway, and mountain hammer prevents you from having to play golf by switching out weapons for DR/Energy Immunity.

SurlySeraph
2010-11-15, 06:19 PM
Can you take a 6th class level instead of using a race with level adjustment? If so you can get the Shock Trooper feat, which lets you power attack for full and take the penalty to your AC instead of to your attack bonus, which is very useful against tough enemies.

If not, and you're serious about fighting CR20 enemies, and this is in fact a 5th-level gestalt character, I recommend you change your build to something like Warblade 5// Cloistered Cleric 1/ Abrupt Jaunt Conjurer 1/ Monk 2/ Favored Soul 1.

Basically, you want one side of the gestalt to be heavy on "active" class features, and the other to be heavy on "passive" class features.
Cloistered Cleric can give you a lot of power by trading out the 3 domains (2+ Knowledge domain) it gets for Devotion feats; Travel Devotion, Law Devotion, Healing Devotion, and especially Knowledge Devotion are good choices.
Abrupt Jaunt Conjurer is a Wizard variant that can teleport 10 feet as an immediate action, a number of times per day equal to its Int mod. Whenever you're targeted with something you're unlikely to survive, activate it to get out of the way. It's a great way to avoid full attacks - the enemy 5-foot-steps towards you, makes its first attack, and you can teleport 10 feet away before any attack hits you - thus making it waste its round.
The Monk and Favored Soul levels are there mainly because they advance all your saves. Favored Soul spells are useful, but getting +5 to all saves in those three levels is why they're there.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-11-15, 07:41 PM
Buy off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) that +1 LA. You'll start with 3,000 fewer XP at +0 LA. Assuming you're starting at the minimum XP for ECL 6, you'll be at 12k instead of 15k, you'll still have only five class levels but you should be getting more XP per encounter and the amount you need to gain the next level is much smaller. An Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) would give you a 10% XP boost which would actually make you pull ahead of everyone else in just a few levels.

You should definitely consider getting levels in something besides an initiator class. For example, pick up Wizard or Sorcerer and you can use (Lesser Rod of Extended) Wraithstrike with Power Attack + Leap Attack. Get a Circlet of Rapid Casting and on the second round of the Wraithstrike you can Power Attack + Leap Attack again and then cast Whirling Blade to hit every opponent in a line including your initial target with a melee attack with all those same bonuses. Get a Lesser Rod of Sculpting and you can make Whirling Blade instead affect four 10-ft. cubes, which can all four be placed on the same four creatures to hit each one four times.

Moose Man
2010-11-15, 09:06 PM
what would you recommend? (actually curious)
Sarcasm Mode: ON
it's not as if know every feat, their weaknesses and their strengths backwards and forwards.
Sarcasm Mode: OFF

Moose Man
2010-11-15, 09:16 PM
next level, i can invest a skill point in UMD and get a +20 umd item.
i have oodles of money

Moose Man
2010-11-16, 08:48 PM
Buy off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) that +1 LA. You'll start with 3,000 fewer XP at +0 LA. Assuming you're starting at the minimum XP for ECL 6, you'll be at 12k instead of 15k, you'll still have only five class levels but you should be getting more XP per encounter and the amount you need to gain the next level is much smaller. An Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) would give you a 10% XP boost which would actually make you pull ahead of everyone else in just a few levels.

1)already did
2)Ecl 5
3)Dm is the "i say when you level" dm type

Keld Denar
2010-11-16, 09:32 PM
My advise...you get out of this process what you put into it. There are still a lot of unanswered questions. We need more info to help. What exactly are you trying to do (other than fight CR20 monsters at ECL5...)

Coidzor
2010-11-16, 09:53 PM
what would you recommend? (actually curious)

I can only give you meaningful feedback about your feat choices if I know why you picked them, so that we can better help you to achieve your ends.

If you want quickdraw, a least crystal of returning from the Magic Item Compendium will grant you quickdraw with whatever weapon of at least masterwork quality you attach it to without having to expend a feat, just gold. Since you mentioned that money's not tight for you right now.

Similarly strong-arm bracers are another magic item, and if I remember correctly, from the same source, that mimic and in this case actually are superior to the feat Monkey Grip.

Increasing weapon damage dice via size increases is only so-so though, as if you size increase yourself (which is more valuable to your tactically due to reach and if you happen to be tripping, bull-rushing, or grappling), the weapon will only size up to the size you acquire. So a greatsword for a Large character won't increase size to that of a Huge character without house-ruling if it's being wielded by a Medium character who gets a size increase to Large.

And is this a personal challenge or does your DM really expect you to fight and have a chance of winning against CR 20 opponents?

Have you seen this challenge? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160998) It's basically what you want, focused on a balor, and all of them that I read require more feats than a sixth level character will have in a standard game.

Moose Man
2010-11-19, 08:55 PM
Coidzor
And is this a personal challenge or does your DM really expect you to fight and have a chance of winning against CR 20 opponents?
We are up against a Black Zombie Dragon half a mile long. great wyrms only grow to a length of 200'-300'. that is the size of it's neck.

Keld Denar
There are still a lot of unanswered questions. We need more info to help. What exactly are you trying to do (other than fight CR20 monsters at ECL5...)
We are trying to get back to the past. The Hadarac Company, whom i used to work for[character], discovered Element Zero 500 years ago. Element Zero (commonly known as EZo) stores and augments any thing you throw at it, not literally. For Example,
if you run an electric current through some EZo, then activate it,

THUNDERSTORM!!!

--Conner, My DM
splicers (DM's Fancy Zombies) have taken the entire world by siege. there are three main governments left, and we have two airships. One needs to be fixed, but Our Artificer is seeing to it.

Force
2010-11-19, 09:09 PM
Element Zero (commonly known as EZo)


splicers (DM's Fancy Zombies)

Has your DM been playing Mass Effect and Bioshock recently, by chance?

Moose Man
2010-11-19, 09:17 PM
yes. he has

Q.1
Can leap attack and shock trooper be used in tandem??

Mystic Muse
2010-11-19, 09:25 PM
We are up against a Black Zombie Dragon half a mile long. great wyrms only grow to a length of 200'-300'. that is the size of it's neck.

What size category is that? I'd expect the thing to have a dexterity score of 1 at this point.

Moose Man
2010-11-19, 09:26 PM
unbelievably giagantomungus. ac=-2000 (joking)

Mystic Muse
2010-11-19, 09:28 PM
leap attack and shock trooper can indeed be used together.

It could also help us to know the stats of what this thing is you're facing.

And if there is an official size category for that it might help.

Urpriest
2010-11-19, 09:31 PM
yes. he has

Q.1
Can leap attack and shock trooper be used in tandem??

Yes, they're commonly used together.

Your problem is pretty obviously not an optimization one though. The situation is a puzzle, and even from this distance I can see the solution. I don't mean to be obnoxious about this, but it would be unfair of me to tell you. So look at what your DM has given you, both directly and in the world. You have ways to defeat this thing besides traditional combat, and these are almost certainly what your DM intends you to use.

Moose Man
2010-11-19, 09:35 PM
Kyuubi, I'm sorry. i have no idea what a millennia-old dragon's stats would be. and I'm pretty sure that if i want to slash, i'll hit. Unless i roll a nat 1... Sigh

BTW: Kyuubi, your avatar looks like hinata

Mystic Muse
2010-11-19, 09:41 PM
Kyuubi, I'm sorry. i have no idea what a millennia-old dragon's stats would be. and I'm pretty sure that if i want to slash, i'll hit. Unless i roll a nat 1... Sigh

BTW: Kyuubi, your avatar looks like hinata

Oh I don't know. If a Dragon has lived a couple millenia I think it's natural armor is going to be pretty good.


it's Hinata combined with Saber from Fate/stay Night. I've been informed it's good but haven't read/played it yet. I also have a normal Hinata avatar.

Moose Man
2010-11-19, 10:48 PM
awesome, Kyuubi. it's natural armor might be incredible, but as it is around 2910' long, it would be MANY sizes larger than colossal.

Mystic Muse
2010-11-19, 10:55 PM
awesome, Kyuubi. it's natural armor might be incredible, but as it is around 2910' long, it would be MANY sizes larger than colossal.

Okay, then look at the rules for increasing monster sizes here. http://www.d20srd.org/

You should find the answer to your problem there under "improving monsters".

Moose Man
2010-11-19, 11:01 PM
unfortunately, I'm not the DM. so i won't be able to provide the info you've been asking for, Kyuubi.

Mystic Muse
2010-11-19, 11:09 PM
unfortunately, I'm not the DM. so i won't be able to provide the info you've been asking for, Kyuubi.

I know.

okay, well, Here's the answer for how to beat the guy if you really want it and don't want to figure it out yourself. if you do, don't highlight the text below this.

The higher the size category goes, the lower the creature's touch AC goes. Unless the DM is breaking the rules on this, the dragon's touch AC is going to be abysmal and you should be able to hit it on anything but a 1. Also, mental stat damage.