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The Oakenshield
2010-11-15, 06:01 PM
I'm going to be using a few in my next adventure, tell me what you think!

All classes, except the Wizard, get at least 4+ skill points.
The fighter gets d12 hit dice, 6+ Skills, Spot and Listen.
The monk gets full BAB, 8+skill points.
The druid and cleric have a spells known list like the sorcerer's, plus domains for the cleric.
Wizards cannot specialize.

Miracle, Wish, Alter Self, Polymorph Any Object, Polymorph and Shapechange are banned.

There is no longer a lower limit on cross-class skills, they still cost 2 points, though.

Opinions?

big teej
2010-11-15, 06:58 PM
being a fan of d12s I really like the idea they will see more use... I am afraid at this time I have nothing further to contribute.

Warlawk
2010-11-15, 08:37 PM
My opinion? Someone has had a wizard crap all over their campaign one time too many.

If you're going to open up spot and listen, open them up for everyone.

Just an observation... anyone who can optimize a wizard to break your game can do the same with a cleric or druid if they can be bothered to learn the mechanics to do so.

My opinion is that you should take the offending player aside and swat them on the nose with a rolled up newspaper and yell "BAD!" No really... if a player is breaking your game with the wizard class talk to the player, don't nerf the class into the ground. Doubly so when you're buffing other classes that are arguably equal, or at worst, very close in power to the wizard.

My group has never had a problem with wizards because we tend to be self regulating and things just don't escalate out of hand. The group as a whole is interested in a good story instead of "winning". When we're at the table and someone says "hey, remember that time..." it's almost invariably about one of our spectacular failures that made for a great story instead of about some amazing victory.

aboyd
2010-11-15, 08:39 PM
Oakenshield, you don't explain the logic behind your changes, so I suspect that a few readers will be baffled.

Having said that, I love the changes. They are so simple and yet will likely result in a game that is far more balanced.

Obviously, your fighters will actually be able to be guards. And your monk won't suck so badly.

I like the druid & cleric limitations, which will reign them in a bit. However, the wizard limitations are sucky -- the only change I don't agree with. I understand your thinking, of course. That is, reign in the wizard as much as the CoDzilla needs reigning in. However, your approach for that one thing isn't as awesome as the rest.

Also, be careful with skill points. The rogue needs niche protection -- if you give out lots of points to other classes, the rogue becomes unnecessary. And although you didn't do it, don't forget that the fighter needs niche protection too, so don't make getting feats easy for other classes. If the rogue is a skill monkey, the fighter is a feat collector.

Anyway, really, I do believe this is good work. You've boiled complicated changes down to very simple concepts. Good job.

TeqSun
2010-11-15, 09:52 PM
All classes, except the Wizard, get at least 4+ skill points.
Wizards cannot specialize, and must choose 3 schools to ban.
Don't hate the spell casters, hate the broken spells!



The fighter gets d12 hit dice, Spot and Listen.
The monk gets full BAB, 8+skill points.
Good, but too conservative when it comes to skills IMO. [The following mini-rant is not directed at you personally.]

I'll never understand this obsession with cross-class skills and skill lists. Seriously, would it be so horrible to open up all skills to everyone? Would kittens really die? How many angels would lose their wings? Okay, I can see restricting stealth and perception skills because every adventurer uses those, but otherwise why can't I choose the skills I want based on ya know, my character rather than my class?



The druid and cleric have a spells known list like the sorcerer's, plus domains for the cleric.
This is actually an official variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm), the only difference being that WotC gave druids Summon Nature's Tool spells for free.



Miracle, Wish, Alter Self, Polymorph Any Object, Polymorph and Shapechange are banned.
This is a good start.

The Oakenshield
2010-11-15, 09:59 PM
Edited opening post.
Was nicer to the wizard, and eased cross-class skills a little.


Thanks for all the replies! Keep 'em comin!

Coidzor
2010-11-15, 10:06 PM
I'd suggest that you just go ahead and make Spot and Listen class skills for anything that has the necessary sensory organs.

KillianHawkeye
2010-11-15, 10:15 PM
There is no longer a lower limit on cross-class skills, they still cost 2 points, though.

Do you mean there is no longer an upper limit on cross-class skills? :smallconfused:

Kylarra
2010-11-15, 10:19 PM
Do you mean there is no longer an upper limit on cross-class skills? :smallconfused:Nah, he means that the lower limit, ie a lesser cap, is no longer there.

Warlawk
2010-11-15, 10:47 PM
Do you mean there is no longer an upper limit on cross-class skills? :smallconfused:

I think the following is the intent.

There is no longer a lower limit on cross-class skills than there is on class skills, they still cost 2 points, though.

IE: They no longer cap at 1/2 even though they still cost 2 points.

sambo.
2010-11-15, 10:49 PM
The fighter gets d12 hit dice, Spot and Listen.

i'd also give them a thumping great huge bonus number of skillpoints.
say, 6 or 8 per level.

let the fighter double as a bit of a skillmonkey.

KillianHawkeye
2010-11-16, 08:02 AM
Nah, he means that the lower limit, ie a lesser cap, is no longer there.


I think the following is the intent.

There is no longer a lower limit on cross-class skills than there is on class skills, they still cost 2 points, though.

IE: They no longer cap at 1/2 even though they still cost 2 points.

Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up. :smallsigh::smallbiggrin:

Psyx
2010-11-16, 08:13 AM
Looks good to me. Non-specc'ed wizards make me cry, though.

4 skill points per level for fighters seems reasonable. I don't think that they need to be a skill-monkey, but spot and listen for them is a nice addition, which would be diminished by giving it to everyone. Protect the rogue role!

Curmudgeon
2010-11-16, 08:40 AM
All classes, except the Wizard, get at least 4+ skill points.
You should also add the Erudite (variant Psion) to that exception; it's another Tier 1 INT-based character.

The Oakenshield
2010-11-16, 03:31 PM
I'm just doing core for now, but thanks for the suggestion, I will add that in later.

Godskook
2010-11-16, 04:35 PM
1.Initiative is a d12 check. Thus, with improved initiative, 18 dex, and facing an opponent with 4 dex, you'd still win initiative on a natural 1, due to tiebreakers.

2.Point-buy can be increased mid-game(not necessarily mid-session, though) at the cost of current point-buy squared. So someone with 20 point-buy stats currently can upgrade by one point at the cost of 400xp. This is capped at an arbitrary value dependent on GMs. Personally, I use level + 30. Allows the use of alternative and less generous stat generation rules than players are otherwise used to without gimping their character's long-term growth. Also produces a more organic character, since the ability scores don't just 'start' awesome.

3.Test of Spite is *ALWAYS* considered a pirate's code for gaming sessions, and the DM is the pirate king. This doesn't make the listed items off-limits, but it does mean that they're not going to be free-reign accessible.

4.Scouts use the Rogue skill list in addition to their own. I'm honestly not sure why the rogue-alternative didn't get this to begin with. This may be true of other poorly designed rogue-alternatives(such as the ninja), but Scout is the only one I know for sure needs it.

5.Rich Burlew's polymorph rules are a 1st generation patch. If we need more fixing done, so be it, but for now, this might hold.

6.The standard TWF feat tree is now one feat instead of 3. The bonus attacks become available as normal for your primary hand's iteratives.

7.Favored Souls are now strictly Cha-based. No reason to gimp the worst tier-2 full-caster. Archivists still suffer a split-casting stat, since they're already tier-1+, being better than a wizard in the RAW-verse, and still in the tier-1 pack quite handily with a reasonable DM.

8.Additional feats can be bought for xp as well. The cost for the first is 1kxp, and further feats cost and additional 1kxp per feat bought this way, and this is capped at HD/2 feats purchased this way. Yes, I know the fighter(and pretty much only him) was balanced on the premise of feats being exclusively 1/3HD, but I really don't care. Its a bad class, and the rest of the field shouldn't suffer for that. By extension of this rule, I don't allow flaws.

9.Fractional BAB/Saves

10.Increases to Int increases skill points the same way that increases to Con increase HP. This is both to increase incentive to raise Int by non-casters and to decrease DM-headaches when reviewing sheets.

kyoryu
2010-11-16, 06:45 PM
I'm going to be using a few in my next adventure, tell me what you think!

All classes, except the Wizard, get at least 4+ skill points.
The fighter gets d12 hit dice, 6+ Skills, Spot and Listen.
The monk gets full BAB, 8+skill points.
The druid and cleric have a spells known list like the sorcerer's, plus domains for the cleric.
Wizards cannot specialize.

Miracle, Wish, Alter Self, Polymorph Any Object, Polymorph and Shapechange are banned.

There is no longer a lower limit on cross-class skills, they still cost 2 points, though.

Opinions?

What are the goals of the house rules?

I'd almost consider just gestalting fighter and rogue, as you're halfway there already... maybe even barbarian. That'd make a solid tier 3 class.

Yora
2010-11-16, 06:52 PM
If I would still run D&D games, I would allow all of these changes if my players request them.
And I'm really extremely reluctant to make any house rules to my games, if I don't consider something to make the game completely unplayable. So yeah, I think you can use all of them without any negative effects.