Help on a crusader/ Master of nine build

[soulsabre345]

I want to try and build a crusader build with master of nine between levels 11 and 15, as of now my current idea is as follows:

Progression
{table=head]Level|S:IL|S:R|W:IL|W:R|C:IL|C:R|Class taken|Feats

1st|
0.5|
0|
0.5|
0|
0.5|
0|
Cobra Strike monk|IUS, Dodge, Imp Initiative

2nd|
1|
0|
1.5|
3|
1|
0|
Warblade|

3rd|
1.5|
0|
2.5|
3|
1.5|
0|
Warblade| Blind-Fight

4th|
2|
0|
3|
3|
2.5|
2|
Crusader|

5th|
3|
4|
3.5|
3|
3|
2|
Swordsage|

6th|
4|
4|
4.5|
3|
4|
3|
Shadow Sun| Extra Granted Manuver

7th|
5|
4|
5.5|
3|
5|
3|
Shadow Sun|

8th|
6|
4|
6.5|
3|
6|
3|
Shadow Sun|

9th|
7|
4|
7.5|
3|
7|
3|
Shadow Sun| Adaptive Style

10th|
8|
4|
8.5|
3|
8|
4|
Shadow Sun|

11th|
9|
4|
9.5|
3|
9|
4|
Shadow Sun|

12th|
10|
4|
10.5|
3|
10|
4|
Shadow Sun| Exotic Weapon Proficency

13th|
11|
4|
11.5|
3|
11|
4|
Shadow Sun|

14th|
12|
4|
12.5|
3|
12|
5|
Master of 9|

15th|
13|
4|
13.5|
3|
13|
6|
Master of 9|

[/table]

Manuvers
{table=head] # | LVL | DW | De | Di | Ir | Se | Sh | St | Ti | Wh | Manuver | Class From | Type | Class Added to | LVL taken

1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Stone Bones |Warblade 1 | Strike | | 2

2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Charging Minotaur |Warblade 1 | Full Strike | | 2

3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | Douse the Flames |Warblade 1 | Strike | | 2

S1| 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | Punishing Stance |Warblade 1 | Stance | | 2

4 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 2 | Leading the Attack |Warblade 2 | Strike | | 3

5 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 2 | Crusader's Strike |Crusader 1 | Strike | | 4

6 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 2 | Vanguard Strike |Crusader 1 | Strike | | 4

S2| 1 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 2 | Martial Spirit |Crusader 1 | Stance | | 4

7 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 2 | Shadow Jaunt |Swordsage 1 | Strike | | 5

8 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 2 | Fire Riposte |Swordsage 1 | Counter | | 5

9 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 2 | Wind Stride |Swordsage 1 | Boost | | 5

10| 1 | 2 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 2 | Counter charge |Swordsage 1 | Counter | | 5

11| 1 | 2 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 2 | Sudden Leap |Swordsage 1 | Boost | | 5

12| 1 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 2 | Action Before Thought |Swordsage 1 | Counter | | 5

S3| 1 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 2 | Child of Shadow |Swordsage 1 | Stance | | 5

13| 2 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 2 | Cloak of Deception |Shadow Sun Ninja 1 | Boost | Crusader | 6

14| 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 2 | Death Mark |Shadow Sun Ninja 3 | Strike | Warblade | 8

S4| 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 2 | Assassin's Stance |Shadow Sun Ninja 5 | Stance | Crusader | 10

15| 6 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 2 | Rallying Strike |Master of Nine 1 | Strike | Crusader | 14

16| 6 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 2 | Shadow Stride |Master of Nine 1 | Move | Crusader | 14

17| 6 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 5 | 2 | 1 | 2 | Shadow Blink |Master of Nine 2 | Boost | Crusader | 15

S5| 6 | 3 | 5 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 5 | 2 | 1 | 2 | Aura of Perfect Order |Master of Nine 2 | Stance | Crusader | 15

[/table]





And I have 5 levels to fill between 6 and 10, and 16 and 20, that I want to have advance initator level but i'm not sure what would be the best option to go about doing so (assume a animated shield).

I was thinking take levels in shadow sun ninja for 6-10 for the utility, because I envision a warrior in full plate pulling out the right tool for the right situation and having several active counters/boosts. I was contemplating bloodclaw master as well for those levels, but I don't know if going after a dual wield build with mostly crusader levels is worthwhile considering the majority of standard strikes

Edit: Turned progression into a table

[Mongoose87]

Since IL from other classes is level/2, the cardinal rule in ToB multi-classing is to use even numbers. As such, I would suggest a second Swordsage level, which would net you Wis to AC,+1 BaB, +1 to Will and Reflex saves, six skill points and another maneuver known.

[soulsabre345]

whoops, forgot about that clause when I posted it, fixed it :smallsmile:. ok, now going to bed :P

[Mongoose87]

I'd also like to suggest putting your SS level first, as it'll net you at least the 6x4 skill points, if not the un-errata'd 6x6.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You should definitely start out Crusader 2/ Unarmed Swordsage 2 and continue from there. That allows you to get a 2nd level Swordsage maneuver and your initiator level for Crusader isn't delayed at all.

You'll probably want Extra Granted Maneuver somewhere in there, so your Crusader maneuvers cycle through every three rounds instead of every four rounds.

Master of Nine requires ten ranks in four skills, which means you can jump in after 7th level instead of waiting until after 10th. Crusader 2/ Swordsage 2/ Crusader 3/ Master of Nine 5 would be decent, but keep in mind you can take nearly any prestige class and it will still advance your initiator level in full:

"Prestige classes work a little differently. In most cases, you add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine your initiator level." ToB page 39, at the end of the 'multiclass characters' entry.

You could go something like Crusader 2/ Swordsage 2/ Crusader 2/ Occult Slayer 1/ Master of Nine 5/ Occult Slayer 4/ Crusader 4. Your initiator level at each Master of Nine level would be one behind your character level for Crusader, or two behind your character level for Swordsage. Your initiator level at those last four Crusader levels would still only be one behind your character level. The inclusion of Occult Slayer is more of a defense-focused character, plus you'll already have all the prerequisite feats. You could maybe use Pious Templar or Master of Masks instead, and ask your DM if it could grant additional maneuvers known/readied instead of spellcasting. It really just depends on what you want this character to be able to do.

[Runestar]

You may want to hold off swordsage so you can pick up higher lv maneuvers.

I think you can go crusader8/swordsage2/master of nine.

[soulsabre345]

Alright, I will say I was contemplating between switching the 2 levels in swordsage for 1 in warblade and 1 in fighter, because the AC bonus from swordsage becomes inert when in heavy armor using a shield, so that bonus is kind of useless, while adaptive style could be handy (as well I'm making this build even more MAD because if I'm using light armor instead of heavy I need decent str, dex, con, and wis, instead of just str, con, and int for the warblade side)

As for the 'most prestige classes advancing initator level, I'm pretty sure that it only applies to the prestige classes in the book, because of the next line

" See the prestige class descriptions in Chapter 5 for details."

Which seems to imply that it only works for the prestige classes in this book, thus any other prestige class advances IL at 1/2 rate

And Pious templar looks interesting, but aside from mettle and weapon specialization I don't quite see why it's better than more levels in crusader

The reason I'm taking master of nine at 11 is because I want access to pick 3 level 7 maneuvers, if i take it as early as possible I'm at level 5 maneuvers.


Oh, and because I probably should have mentioned it, my DM uses a modified point buy, each point costs 1, you have 86 points, only 1 18 and no stat lower than 8.

i.e. optimized stat build is 18-16-16-16-10-10 and that these likely are the stat setup i'll have available

[Mongoose87]

As for the 'most prestige classes advancing initator level, I'm pretty sure that it only applies to the prestige classes in the book, because of the next line

" See the prestige class descriptions in Chapter 5 for details."

Which seems to imply that it only works for the prestige classes in this book, thus any other prestige class advances IL at 1/2 rate


I've seen both sides of this argument, but I think allowing any PrC that doesn't specify full IL advancement to do so is a somewhat unintuitive interpretation.

[soulsabre345]

I suppose, but I will say some of the stronger prcs, to have full IL advancement might be a bit much. If it was up to me I'd probably just say if it advances any sort of spellcasting it advances IL at the same rate, and at half rate for the levels that doesn't advance. a Hulking Hurler Bloodstorm Blade that has full IL progression may be pushing it a bit.

[Mongoose87]

I was agreeing with you.

[Keld Denar]

A little trick is to take White Raven and Stone Dragon manevuers with Warblade levels prior to taking your first Crusader level. That way you cut the number of Crusader manevuers known WAY down. Since the Crusader recovery mechanic triggers when there are no maneuvers readied but not granted. If your manevuers known is less than or equal to your manevuers granted, then all of your manevuers known will be readied subsequently granted. Each round, since all of your manevuers readied are granted, you're maneuvers will reset. This allows you to have the same pool of manevuers readied every round.

Once you have that set up, when you take levels of Mo9, add manevuers readied to your Crusader base (which also adds manevuers granted), and then pick and choose the manevuers you want always accessable and add them as well. So long as your manevuers known <= manevuers readied for your Crusader base, you'll be able to spam those manevuers each round without the randomness normally built into the mechanic. White Raven Hammer every round? Stunlock!

[soulsabre345]

(my phone ate my post so giving a shorter one)

what if you want access to level 6-9 devo manuvers though?

I may very well use this idea, sounds awesome, but it's more for a warblade based build. I do want access to level 8-9 devo manuvers before epic though

[Keld Denar]

UA Swordsage1/Warblade1/Crusader1/Swordsage+1/Warblade1/ShadowSunNinja5/Mo95/Crusader+5?

That'll give you a Crusader IL of 13 by ECL15, and 18 by ECL20. Alternatively, be an Elf and finish with Eternal Blade, which also gets Devoted Spirit manevuers.

[soulsabre345]

Very nice, you just gave me my build :). Would replacing the second or both levels of swordsage with fighter also work? (I don't really want to deal with 3 refresh mechanics and 3 lists). I'm not at home so i don't remember if shadow sun ninja needs swordsage

[Keld Denar]

Technically, you could, but then you'd have to take IUAS as a feat.

Also, don't forget Extra Granted Manevuers (preferably at level 3). Thats a feat you can take that increases your Granted Manevuer by 1. That gives you 3 base manevuers you CAN know as a Crusader. Each manevuer Readied you gain from a PrC gives you one more manevuer granted (according to the rules), so you just have to keep your manevuers known equal to or less than your maneuvers readied. Dump all of the manevuers known you DON'T want on your Warblade side, but be mindful of prereqs.

As far as 3 lists, its not THAT hard. Crusader will only have a couple maneuvers that you'll spam. Warblade should probably pick up all 3 Diamond Mind save counters (so they are always available) as well as a couple of minor useful tricks like Sudden Leap. Swordsage should pick up things that are more useful out of combat, like Cloak of Deception or the lowest level teleport.

[soulsabre345]

alright, i'll work with it. Any reason for the particular order? I was thinking for the first 5 levels potentially Warblade/ Fighter / Warblade /Crusader / UA Swordsage so i can get 6 level 2 swordsage maneuvers, with the 2 warblade levels taking up the 4 maneuvers needed to have crusader only have 2 available. I don't get moment of perfect mind..but..i think getting multiple level 2 SS maneuvers is worth it

EDIT:

I just fiddled with the order and realized your order is more efficient use of ILs, although i am replacing the 2nd SS level with fighter

[Keld Denar]

Eh, SS2 is a pretty good level. You get +Wis to AC in light armor (Mith BP is light), and assuming no-fractional BAB/Saves: +1 BAB, +1 Ref/Will, and 6+int skill points. I wouldn't take the 3rd level, but as far as shear stats, its not bad.

Do you really need the feat for that Fighter level?

[soulsabre345]

well if i want to get extra granted before level 12 then i do

[soulsabre345]

Original post has been updated with my current plans for the build, still open to suggestions for maneuvers to take or level progression

[Keld Denar]

Have you settled on a race yet? If not, Human gets you that extra feat, but I'd actually do some flavor of elf. I'd actually recommend jumping out of Mo9 after 3 levels and take a couple levels of Eternal Blade. This allows you to use those awesome Mo9 levels to pick up some awesome higher level manevuers.

Something to aspire to...Shadow Stride + Shadow Blink + big Strike all 3 on your constant Crusader list. That way you can swift blink in, standard strike, then move blink out. Otherwise Shadow Blink + X-leader's Charge allows you to charge most rounds and then blink away or blink back and charge again. Every round.

[soulsabre345]

yeah i was contemplating elf, so what would you think ideal?

at level 11, 3 levels in Mo9. 3 levels in eternal blade, 2 levels in Mo9, then the rest in eternal blade?

and how exactly does assigning prestige class levels to various initiator classes work? can i choose to have the level based on crusader and pick a manurer based on crusader level but add it to the warblades list even if the warblade doesn't have the IL for it?

[Keld Denar]

You pick which class to add each feature to. If you get +1 maneuver known and +1 maneuver readied, you can apply one to Crusader, and the other to Warblade, if you which. As for what you get, that depends on what the class you take gives. If you add Eternal Blade, it has to be Devoted Spirit or Diamond Mind, since those are what EB gives. It doesn't matter what you give it to, so you could add Devoted Spirit to your Warblade side, or Diamond Mind to your Crusader mechanic. Mo9 lets you pick from any school, so you can get whatever you want and put it whereever you want. The class you add the maneuver to has to have an IL high enough to add that manevuer, so if you had a Warblade IL of 9 and a Crusader IL of 13 and you wanted to add a 7th level manevuer, it would have to go on your Crusader mechanic. PrCs that grant maneuvers add their levels to ALL of your class' ILs.

That should pretty well cover all those rules.

[Optimator]

A single Level of Cobra Strike Monk (UA) nets Improved Unarmed Strike and Dodge. I heard that is a good dip for Mo9s. Not sure if that helps you, but the only Mo9 I've seen in play used it.

[Master_Rahl22]

If you're not dipping to get Dodge as a bonus feat, you should take Expeditious Dodge instead, I believe it's from Races of the Wild. Especially if you end up charging every round, you'll have no trouble moving enough to activate the feat and you get +2 to AC against everybody, instead of just +1 against one enemy.

[soulsabre345]

i may look into expedious dodge or desert wind dodge. i was wondering however that if replacing higher manuvers with lower every 2 IL is a feature of the base tob classes or if it's a given for any manuver class that every even IL past 4 lets you exchange manuvers.

as well, perhaps cobra strike monk/ua swordsage instead of ua swordsage/ fighter

Original post updated with current plan to level 15

[soulsabre345]

Ok, so right now I haven't picked a race specifically, but since I have 10 levels of monk progression I was thinking of grabbing a race with a str or dex bonus, and no wis penalty, or human.

Stats would be 18/16 dex/str, lower stat in dex if going human, or aiming for 18/18 after bonuses if a different race. Other stats are
con 16
int 10
wis 16
cha 10

Before racial mods.

Suggestions for feats would still be nice as the only 2 non-prereq feats I've taken are extra granted manuver at 9 and EWP at 12 to take advantage of warblade's adaptive style because I imagine around 12 or so I'll have the cash to get a good weapon. Then again, with superior unarmed strike and a monk's belt perhaps I might be better of as well taking 2 monk levels and 1 more SSN level instead of monk/ua swordsage as to get greater flurry

[Keld Denar]

Are you starting at level1? If so, what you have is ok. If you aren't, swap around your first 2 levels slightly to put that Warblade level 1st. That gets you 2 more HP and no loss of skills or change to your manevuers. Heck, even if you are starting at 1st, Warblade at 1 will start you stronger out of the gate, although you'll have to change your fighting style once your UAS damage gets about up to greatsword level.

Do you see yourself using UASs or a weapon? I'd focus on one or the other. The EWP doesn't really get you a whole lot that late, especially since you're UAS damage will be decent. What weapon did you have in mind?

An alternative to that would be Snap Kick, which would give you an extra UAS on top of your normal UAS + Strike damage. Thats pretty decent. Otherwise, if you will be striking a lot, 1:1 Power Attacking with an UAS isn't that bad, although Snap Kick is probably better. You definitely want to keep Extra Granted Maneuver though. Its really good.

As for race...If you are going for Eternal Blade, elf would be required. Luckily, elves come in lots of varieties of colors and flavors. Wild Elves get +2 Str and +2 Dex, which is nice, although they have a penalty to Con which is less than desired for a warrior. Still, its better than vanilla elf.

[soulsabre345]

originally i was planning on using a greatsword or spiked chain, i kind of wanted to avoid UAS because that requires full attack and i wanted to have a mobile character, But it will probably work well. bah, now i need to remake my manuver list again to focus more on full attack instead of run and gun. at least class levels are set though. I'll probably enter the campaign anywhere between level 5 to 20, this is a backup char currently

but it seems like right now my current progression plan is warblade 2/ crusader 1/ monk 1/ ua swordsage 1/ SSN 10 / MO9 5

[Keld Denar]

Why and why?

If you can get your UAS damage high enough, you can deliver powerful strikes with UASs. Also, Snap Kick essentially doubles your base UAS damage the the cost of a -2 to hit. As long as your UAS does more than 4 average damage, Snap Kick comes out ahead of Power Attack on a bonus per penalty basis.

Its not hard to get UAS damage up to ~2d6, and even easier if you can bribe a friendly wizarding type to cast Greater Mighty Wallop on you every adventuring day. Then its REALLY worth it.

[soulsabre345]

gotcha, so going full UAS focus