Mimic (3.5 Base Class)

[GnomeWorks]

Let's see what folk think of this one...

This class is originally posted here (http://trinitywiki.org/Class:_Mimic).

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Mimic
"Anything you can do, I can do better."

http://trinitywiki.org/images/c/c5/Mime2.jpg

Gogo, iconic mimic
Sometimes, the best thing to do has already been done. This is the stratagem of the mimic: rather than develop a suite of abilities of her own, she mimics the abilities of those around her.

Adventures: For the mimic, life is an adventure. While she has hobbies, skills, and goals of her own, a mimic is often in a state of near-perpetual awe regarding the world around her. An adventuring mimic is one who has grown tired of the sights of wherever she hails from, and seeks new and exciting experiences.

Characteristics: Mimics are often intensely curious creatures, seeking to understand the world around them even as they copy nearly perfectly what is happening in that world. Akashics (http://trinitywiki.org/Class:_Akashic) are too withdrawn and distant from their subjects of study, learners (http://trinitywiki.org/Class:_Learner) are too martially-driven to really put much thought into their abilities, and trainers (http://trinitywiki.org/Class:_Trainer) only make use of the Blue by a technicality; mimics, however, are right in the thick of the creation of memory, and deal with it while it is still fresh. Despite being tied to the world memory, they are more interested in the now than the past.

Ethos (http://trinitywiki.org/Journey:_Ethos): Mimics usually straddle the line between Blue and Red ethoi, favoring the thinking and curiosity of blue beliefs while also holding creativity and freedom to be paramount virtues. Like almost all users of world memory, mimics' beliefs are often tinged White, believing in order. In terms of beliefs, mimics have more in common with anarchs (http://trinitywiki.org/Class:_Anarch) than akashics.

Races: Any race with a penchant for curiosity has potential to give rise to mimics; moogles (http://trinitywiki.org/Race:_Moogle) in close proximity to gnomes (http://trinitywiki.org/Race:_Gnome), in particular, are more likely than most to look to the path of the mimic. As with most classes, almost any race in existence has the potential to give rise to mimics, given the right circumstances.

Other Classes: Despite their Force alignments clashing, mimics often get along swimmingly with anarchs; oftentimes the philosophical opposition is abstract and removed enough that members of the two classes can work in tandem. Surprisingly, mimics do not get along well with most other members of their Force, primarily due to the other classes heavy into memetics are too far removed from the present for the mimic's taste. In general, mimics prefer their companions to be as varied as possible, to better experience more and different things more readily; as such, mimics tend to be welcoming to almost anyone.

Role: A mimic is limited to what the creatures and people around her are capable of; on her own, a mimic is almost completely without skills. Provided she has companions, however, the mimic is able to fulfill any role her companions can fill, though perhaps not as well. The saying "jack of all trades, master of none" almost certainly applies to the mimic.

Table: The Mimic
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Active Memes|Memory|Belief-Space
1|+0|+1|+1|+1|Action Mimic|1|---|---
2|+1|+2|+2|+2||2|---|---
3|+1|+2|+2|+2|Mimic Save|3|---|---
4|+2|+2|+2|+2||3|---|---
5|+2|+3|+3|+3|Mimic Class|4|1|1
6|+3|+3|+3|+3||5|2|1
7|+3|+4|+4|+4|Movement Mimic|6|3|1
8|+4|+4|+4|+4||6|5|2
9|+4|+4|+4|+4||7|6|2
10|+5|+5|+5|+5|Mimic Talent|8|7|2
11|+5|+5|+5|+5||9|9|3
12|+6/+1|+6|+6|+6|Mimic Talent|9|10|3
13|+6/+1|+6|+6|+6||10|11|3
14|+7/+2|+6|+6|+6|Mimic Talent|11|13|4
15|+7/+2|+7|+7|+7||12|14|4
16|+8/+3|+7|+7|+7|Mimic Talent|12|15|4
17|+8/+3|+8|+8|+8||13|17|5
18|+9/+4|+8|+8|+8|Mimic Talent|14|18|5
19|+9/+4|+8|+8|+8||15|19|5
20|+10/+5|+9|+9|+9|Mimic Talent|15|21|5[/table]

Game Rule Information
Mimics have the following game statistics.

Abilities: All ability scores are important to a mimic; however, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma improve her memetics, allowing her to mimic more, longer, and better.

Hit Die: d6.

Class Skills: The mimic's class skills are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Disguise (Cha), Listen (Wis), Mimic Voice (Cha), Perform (Cha), Read/Write Language, Search (Int), Speak Language, and Spot (Wis).

Skill Points at First Level: (4 + Int mod) x 4.

Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int mod.

Alignment: Any.

Starting Age: Moderate.

Starting Gold: 4d4 x 10gp.

Favored By: Vesuvan (http://trinitywiki.org/Race:_Vesuvan).

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the mimic.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A mimic is proficient with simple weapons and light armor, but not shields.

Memetics (Bl): As with all classes aligned with the Blue, the mimic utilizies memetics. Unlike other Blue-aligned classes, however, the mimic is much more active in her usage of memes; whereas other classes pull deep from the world memory, mimics' talents lie in utilizing just-formed memories.

Active Memes (Me): A mimic's active memes are those she learns through her class features.

At the end of each of her turns, a mimic's active meme slots are flushed: any meme slots she has that have been filled with an action or other meme are emptied.

You gain additional active meme slots equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Action Mimic (Me): Whenever an action is taken, the mimic may - as a non-action - declare the action as an active meme. If she does so, she records the type of action and what d20 rolls were made, as well as their modifiers.

If she takes the action, she uses the exact same modifiers for any d20 rolls involved that the original action used. Rolls made that are independent of the origin of the action - such as equipment - are informed by the mimic's equipment and independent effects, rather than the origin.

Example: A creature makes an attack with a masterwork greatsword, which the mimic - who is wielding a +2 longsword - uses action mimic on. The creature has a +4 attack roll. The mimic can make an attack with her weapon at +5 to attack (+3 from the creature's own attack roll, +2 from her own sword), but uses her normal damage bonuses.

This ability allows the mimic to use skills and feats she otherwise does not possess or meet the prerequisites for. Copied Force abilities use one-half her mimic level (round down, minimum one) as the Force-user level, and use her own ability scores to set the saving throw DC.

If the mimic has insufficient active meme slots open, she may flush an active meme slot and fill it with the new action.

Mimic Save (Me): At third level, the mimic can mimic the saving throw of another creature, if she is affected by the same effect. As an immediate action, she can use an active meme slot to make a saving throw with the same bonus as the mimicked creature; the active meme slot used to do this is considered filled and is automatically flushed at the end of your next turn.

Such a mimicked save is effective only against the effect the original save was against, and cannot be used again for other purposes.

You cannot flush a meme slot filled by this ability until the end of your next turn.

If the character in question benefits from an ability that improves their saves in some fashion, such as evasion, the mimic enjoys the benefit of that ability for a mimicked save.

Mimic Class (Me): Beginning at fifth level, a mimic can begin fully imitating the abilities of those around her. At the beginning of each day, she may gain a "virtual level" for every belief-space she has open; this virtual level gives her the class features of the first level of any one base class. A creature must be present who has at least as many levels in the class as she desires virtual levels, and must remain present for at least an hour, during which the mimic studies the creature.

A mimic can, if she has enough belief-space, acquire multiple virtual levels in a class. She must invest one belief-space in a class for each virtual level she desires.

If you gain virtual levels in a class that grants access to Force abilities (such as spells or memes), you must select them from the Force abilities the creature you are imitating the class from can access.

If you have a Charisma modifier, you gain an additional belief-space at seventh level and every two levels after, until you have bonus belief-space equal to your Charisma modifier.

Memory (Me): Beginning at fifth level, a mimic has become sufficiently advanced in her understanding of the Blue to begin investing part of herself and her memory into the abilities she mimics.

As a free action, a mimic can assign her memory to her active memes. If she does so, gain one of the following benefits: she gains a +1 insight bonus to any d20 roll involved in the active meme; or, she gains a +1 bonus to her effective caster level when using a Force ability. A mimic can only invest an amount of memory into an active meme up to or equal to her mimic level. The result of a d20 roll cannot exceed the original action's result, and your effective caster level cannot exceed the caster level of the original effect (as such, such information should be recorded when you choose an action as an active meme).

During your turn, as a swift action, you may allocate your memory to any of your active memes, in any way you see fit. When a meme slot is flushed, the memory is deallocated, and you can allocate your full memory again on your next turn. If you gain additional swift actions during your turn, you can reallocate your memory amongst your active memes as you see fit.

You may also choose to allocate your memory as an immediate action.

Memory is not "spent;" that is, you always have access to your full allotment, and do not need to rest to access it. If, in some fashion, you suffer a temporary loss of memory, you regain any such lost memory after a full night's rest.

You gain additional memory equal to your Intelligence modifier.

Movement Mimic (Me): At seventh level, the mimic may copy the movements of a creature. As an immediate action, in response to a creature moving, she may move the same number of squares in the same direction, provided that she can traverse the terrain she covers and can end her movement in the final square.

For Large and larger creatures, use the creature's center point to determine how the mimic moves.

Example: A creature moves two squares northeast and one square east. The mimic can move two squares northeast and one square east, even if the mimic cannot normally move that far, and provided she can move through those squares end her turn in that square.

This movement is concurrent with the original action; that is, each time the origin of the effect moves a square, the mimic moves a square, as well, until the move action is finished. As such, the mimic nor the original creature provoke attacks of opportunity from each other for moving through or out of threatened squares.

Using this ability requires an open active meme slot, the active meme slot used to do this is considered filled and is automatically flushed at the end of your next turn. If a mimic uses this ability, she cannot use an action to move on her next turn.

You cannot flush meme slots filled by this ability until the end of your next turn.

Mimic Talent: At 10th level and every two levels thereafter, the mimic gains a deeper understanding of the ways of mimicry. Choose one of the abilities below.

Act the Part (Me): When the mimic is using the Bluff, Disguise, and/or Mimic Voice skills to imitate another person, creatures who use supernatural means to attempt to identify her must make a level check with DC 10 + mimic level. If the check succeeds, the means used identify the mimic correctly; otherwise, they identify the mimic as the individual she is imitating.
Counter Mimic (Me): When the mimic is the target of an attack or other ability, she may - as an attack of opportunity, after the ability is resolved - use an active meme to mimic the ability (as per action mimic) and use it against the origin of the ability. The active meme slot is considered filled and is flushed automatically at the end of the mimic's next turn.
Final Mimic (Me): When the mimic is the target of an attack or other ability that drops her below 0 hit points, she may - as an attack of opportunity, after the ability is resolved - use an active meme to mimic the ability (as per action mimic) and use it against the origin of the ability. The active meme slot is considered filled and will be flushed automatically at the end of the mimic's next turn, and the mimic falls unconscious and/or dies. (Prerequisites: Counter Mimic)
Extended Memory (Me): When the mimic's active memes would be flushed, she may invest memory into them to avoid this. At the end of each of her turns, if she invests a point of memory into a meme, it is not flushed that round; this is cumulative. If she frees up the memory invested in an active meme for this purpose, the slot is immediately flushed.
Mimic Mastery (Me): When the mimic acquires an action as an active meme, she may use the original rolls for the action rather than make her own.
Mirror Mimic (Me): The mimic may, rather than select a single action taken by a creature, choose to mimic a creature's entire turn. Declaring a usage of mirror mimic is an immediate action, and requires the mimic to use all of her active meme slots to do so; on her turn, the mimic must perform the exact same actions in the exact same order. She uses the exact same results the original creature had for any rolls. If she takes an action that the creature did not perform, her turn immediately ends after the resolution of that action. (Prerequisites: Mimic Mastery)
Mimic Subconscious (Me): Whenever a creature attempts to detect the mimic's mental state, such as reading her alignment, thoughts, or emotions, the mimic subconsciously and automatically mimics the detector's alignment, thoughts, or emotions, for the duration of the effect; the detector may make a caster or equivalent level check against DC 10 + mimic level, with success indicating that they see through the ruse and can read the mimic's mind normally.
Anonymity (Me): The mimic has become adept at hiding herself, making her mind and temporal signature resemble the world around her through mimickry, and is no longer detectable through supernatural means. She becomes immune to any ability that would detect her presence; this ability only affects the mimic and her possessions. A mimic can suppress or resume this ability at will. (Prerequisites: Mimic Subconscious)
Photographic Reflexes (Me): Whenever an action is taken, the mimic may - as an immediate action - use an active meme to mimic the ability (as per action mimic) and use it; the mimic's action happens after the initial action. The active meme slot is considered filled and flushed automatically at the end of your next turn.
Concurrent Mimic (Me): When the mimic uses her photographic reflexes ability, the actions are resolved simultaneously. (Prerequisites: Photographic Reflexes)
Feat: A mimic may take a bonus feat in place of a mimic talent.

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For those of you who are curious what (Bl) and (Me) mean, they are roughly equatable to (Su) and (Sp), respectively.

Wherever you see the term "Force-user," substitute "spellcaster or manifester," or similar appropriate terminology.

Any references to "the Blue" are references to where the mimic draws its power from; mechanics relevant to that have been stripped out of the class, because they would take more explanation than I'm interested in giving here for starters. Suffice to say that they're primarily flavor-related and an integral part of my campaign setting, and not terribly important for anyone else interested in using the class.

Yes, I use median saves; no, I don't care if they're not used in standard d20, they serve my purposes rather well.

I'm looking for feedback on whether or not folk think this is a useful class, and whether or not it seems overpowered. Are there loopholes with this that I haven't considered, etc etc.

Edit: This class has been edited since it was first posted, and is hopefully clearer now. Let me know.

[Fizban]

That thing is pretty cool. It's complicated and simple at the same time, and seems to focus mostly on grabbing higher bonuses and action management to get the edge over your opponents. One extremely important thing I'm confused about though: sometimes it sounds like you can copy a spell and then cast it, other times it doesn't. More examples would be good, maybe even a mixed combat round by round, and what the mimic might do in such a situation. I feel the class would be easy to use once you knew exactly what it could and couldn't do, but it's a little hard to figure out just from the words. Seriously cool though.

[~Nye~]

I assume you can mimic spells? if so Concurrent mimic and photographic reflexes are nice, if not a little overpowered, you could counterspell anything thrown at you?

Appart from that, I really REALLY like this!
I have a Pair of D'vati I was looking to have an interesting base class to play with, and I think this will do nicely ;)

[GnomeWorks]

That thing is pretty cool.

Thanks!


It's complicated and simple at the same time, and seems to focus mostly on grabbing higher bonuses and action management to get the edge over your opponents.

That is pretty much what it's all about.


One extremely important thing I'm confused about though: sometimes it sounds like you can copy a spell and then cast it, other times it doesn't.

Hmm... would you mind pointing out which sections are confusing, in this regard? I'll admit that, in the class's development, I did a bit of flip-flopping on whether or not they could mimic spellcasting, but in the end decided they could do so at severely reduced caster level. It is entirely possible that parts of the text don't support that, though.


I assume you can mimic spells? if so Concurrent mimic is nice, if not a little overpowered, you could counterspell anything thrown at you?

Yep, you can mimic spells, albeit at a reduced caster level (which you can improve if you invest memory into the action).

You cannot, however, counterspell with concurrent mimic. You have to perform the action as it was performed, not modify it (other than investing memory into the action); counterspelling requires a modification of the spell being cast, and so is beyond the mimic's ability.

[Fizban]

So do you mimic spellcasting with Mimic Action [cast Fireball] and then start with CL 0, which is what it sounds like you just said, or did you mean to do it only with Belief-Space? (speaking of which, Belief-Space should be on the table).

[GnomeWorks]

So do you mimic spellcasting with Mimic Action [cast Fireball] and then start with CL 0, which is what it sounds like you just said, or did you mean to do it only with Belief-Space? (speaking of which, Belief-Space should be on the table).

If you mimic a spellcaster casting fireball, you can fill an active meme with that action, which would be casting fireball at half the CL of the origin (so if you mimic a 14th-level caster, you would cast at 7th).

You can invest memory, if you have any, into that action, to improve the CL, up to a maximum of the original CL (so you could invest 7 memory to improve it back to 14th CL).

Using belief-space allows you to copy someone else's class, with your equivalent level in their class equal to the amount of belief-space you put towards that class. So if you copy up to 5th level of wizard, and the person you're copying knows fireball, then you can cast fireball, as though you were a 5th-level wizard.

Belief-space is already on the table.

[Pyromancer999]

Bit complicated for my tastes, but I like the belief space class feature. It'd be awesome if there was a PrC that revolved around that.

[Realms of Chaos]

There are many things that should really be spelled out here so that we can understand them.

For one thing, what does it mean when a meme is flushed? There is no definition for that terminology here. It sounds like it might mean getting rid of the previous meme and opening up the slot again (?) but if that's true, that means that the bonuses you get typically don't last for more than one round and many people would be hard-pressed to actually use 15 memes in a single round.

On the topic of refreshing memes it seems a bit redundant to tell us when the memes are flushed both under the description of the active meme ability and under the descriptions of every ability that uses them as well (unless some abilities are specifically intended to flush later on).

As a third thing, you never actually spell out what memory does and what we'd do with a full 21 memory. Can we assign more than one as a meme by spending additional slots? Are they useful for other abilities and purposes. I only see a couple other uses for memory there and the fact that those abilities are optional (coming from a list) may mean that you end up with a bunch of memory and no real outlet for it unless I'm missing something.

How does mimic save work? Can I copy any number of saving throws against any number of effects at a given time? Does using them as an active meme and having them flushed mean that I can't use that mimicked saving throw anymore.

Looking at Action Mimic, you may have forget to allow players to use a mimicked skill untrained if the mimicked target is trained in that skill unless you chose not to give that on purpose.

In addition, Action Mimic mentions a save DC in the last couple of sentances but you neglect to point out that a saving throw is allowed (or what type of saving throw) in the first place. As Me is the equivalent of Sp, we can't even guess the save DC of the ability (what is the effective spell level of this ability?). Also, what is the "caster level" for this ability?

For that matter, why do you even use the term "Active Memes" when there is no such thing as an "Inactive Meme"? Wouldn't it save a whole lot of time to just call them all memes?

Perhaps all of these questions would be answered in some other link I could reach from the link that you provided but it seems odd that you'd post this expecting commentary without a direct link to the rules that people need to know in order to give a decent idea of how powerful this is.

I can't even tell you if there are infinite loops or broken-ness because you may be using half a dozen force-using classes that may be broken when used in combination through belief space or this guy might have five times the memory of similar classes or something like that.

In short, I can't tell you much about the power level assuming that this is a stand-alone class and I can't tell you anything if this is intended to be an entirely new system with new classes, feats, etc.

Can you give us a better summary of what's going on or at least provide a link to all of the relevant links that would be needed for us to piece this together ourselves? :smallconfused:

Edit: I just searched through the wiki and I still can't find the answer to half of my questions. The mechanics of blue magic are still as slippery as mud since they function differently for every single class that has them (what with the trainer using belief-space for creature control and the learner getting more spell-ish abilities) so all that I could find out is that it functions "kind of like incarnum", though I couldn't find any more detail than that. :smallsigh:

[GnomeWorks]

There are many things that should really be spelled out here so that we can understand them.

Yep, I was thinking that earlier today. I was on quite a bit of medication when I posted it, so I'll blame any lack in the original write-up on that. :smalltongue:


For one thing, what does it mean when a meme is flushed? There is no definition for that terminology here. It sounds like it might mean getting rid of the previous meme and opening up the slot again (?) but if that's true, that means that the bonuses you get typically don't last for more than one round and many people would be hard-pressed to actually use 15 memes in a single round.

Correct. When a meme slot is flushed, the action occupying it is removed, and the slot is open for use again.

In standard d20, you're right, having 15 actions to choose from may not be all that useful. However, the Mimic has quite a bit of synergy with other classes I've homebrewed, which include an extensive amount of action-granting.

In addition, having 15 slots means versatility. With only a few slots, you have to ask each time an action happens - is that worth taking? What if what I have now is better when my action comes up? With more slots, you've got more options available when the time comes to use them.


On the topic of refreshing memes it seems a bit redundant to tell us when the memes are flushed both under the description of the active meme ability and under the descriptions of every ability that uses them as well (unless some abilities are specifically intended to flush later on).

Some abilities specifically do not allow you to flush the slot, instead occupying the slot until you automatically flush your meme slots at the end of your next turn.

These include the mimic save and action mimic abilities.


As a third thing, you never actually spell out what memory does and what we'd do with a full 21 memory. Can we assign more than one as a meme by spending additional slots? Are they useful for other abilities and purposes. I only see a couple other uses for memory there and the fact that those abilities are optional (coming from a list) may mean that you end up with a bunch of memory and no real outlet for it unless I'm missing something.

True that. The write-up for memory and what it entails and how it functions and all that jazz is in the text for another class, which - for whatever reason - never made it to the mimic.

Memory can be expended to improve rolls and caster levels, as outlined in the text above; as mentioned, you can't improve a roll over the original roll's result, and you can't improve a spell's caster level to higher than the origin's caster level.

Memory is essentially a reflavoring of essentia from Magic of Incarnum, and behaves similarly.


How does mimic save work? Can I copy any number of saving throws against any number of effects at a given time? Does using them as an active meme and having them flushed mean that I can't use that mimicked saving throw anymore.

When you mimic save, you essentially get to choose any of the saves made against an effect to use as your saving throw.

The ability is only useful against a single effect, so you'd have to mimic save multiple times against multiple abilities (or against an effect that calls for multiple saves). You could use it multiple times against a single effect... though that doesn't really do much for you.

This requires an open meme slot, and the slot is filled and cannot be flushed until the end of your next turn (when it does so automatically).


Looking at Action Mimic, you may have forget to allow players to use a mimicked skill untrained if the mimicked target is trained in that skill unless you chose not to give that on purpose.

I sort of assumed that was implied in the text, that you could do that. It is a mimic, after all.


In addition, Action Mimic mentions a save DC in the last couple of sentances but you neglect to point out that a saving throw is allowed (or what type of saving throw) in the first place. As Me is the equivalent of Sp, we can't even guess the save DC of the ability (what is the effective spell level of this ability?). Also, what is the "caster level" for this ability?

Seemed fairly self-evident to me - when you mimic a spell, when you use it, you use your own ability scores to set the effect's saving throw DC.


For that matter, why do you even use the term "Active Memes" when there is no such thing as an "Inactive Meme"? Wouldn't it save a whole lot of time to just call them all memes?

While this class doesn't have what would effectively be "inactive memes," other classes I have written that use the same mechanic and the same power source also use memes, and there is a distinction between the memes they have active and the ones they don't. Mimics, as users of the same power source, get stuck with the same terminology.

It admittedly makes more sense in context.


Perhaps all of these questions would be answered in some other link I could reach from the link that you provided but it seems odd that you'd post this expecting commentary without a direct link to the rules that people need to know in order to give a decent idea of how powerful this is.

Well, to be fair, I think part of the idea of posting it was also to see if someone could understand the write-up without necessarily having to reference other materials (which isn't something I stated as a goal, because that seemed like an awkward goal to have and bring out in the open).

Also part of the problem here is that most of these mechanics are things that I've been messing around with for months, if not years, so it looks rather complete to me because I know what I'm thinking when I write it; I've got a vision of how it works, in my head, and with that I can "fill in the gaps" when the text is unclear. It's hard to say if there's things missing that other folks need to know because I'm pretty much blind to them, unfortunately.


I can't even tell you if there are infinite loops or broken-ness because you may be using half a dozen force-using classes that may be broken when used in combination through belief space or this guy might have five times the memory of similar classes or something like that.

I generally assume that my classes are balanced against each other. However, since - at this point - I've pretty much eradicated every core class and replaced them with homebrew classes of my own design, I need to know if it's balanced against core classes and core assumptions. Since I've pretty much cast those off a long time ago, I'm no longer in the mindset that a user of the core is, and was interested in whether or not this was balanced in respect to the core (or whatever else additional stuff, homebrew or not, folk have used or come up with).

The question is if this class is balanced/useful/etc "in the wild."


In short, I can't tell you much about the power level assuming that this is a stand-alone class and I can't tell you anything if this is intended to be an entirely new system with new classes, feats, etc.

Fair enough. I think you've given a fairly decent outline, thus far, of what information is missing to make an informed opinion, so I'll get to work on modifying the write-up to include such information.


Can you give us a better summary of what's going on or at least provide a link to all of the relevant links that would be needed for us to piece this together ourselves? :smallconfused:

I can give it a shot.


Edit: I just searched through the wiki and I still can't find the answer to half of my questions. The mechanics of blue magic are still as slippery as mud since they function differently for every single class that has them (what with the trainer using belief-space for creature control and the learner getting more spell-ish abilities) so all that I could find out is that it functions "kind of like incarnum", though I couldn't find any more detail than that. :smallsigh:

Man, learners are a massive PitA, let me tell you... I spent like four years working on that class, and I'm still not happy with the mechanics. :smallsigh:

Trainers are also basically shoehorned into the Blue, for explanations that are kind of wonky and rather nonsensical. Using belief-space for creature control seemed the best way to work them in.

Akashic, being the primary Blue caster, is unfortunately not finished, of course. :smallfrown: That'd make things convenient if it was.

[Fizban]

If you mimic a spellcaster casting fireball, you can fill an active meme with that action, which would be casting fireball at half the CL of the origin (so if you mimic a 14th-level caster, you would cast at 7th).
Ah, I see why I couldn't find it: it's under the example. I take it you see no problem with infinite spells then?

Belief-space is already on the table.
They're on the right with the other increasing pools of points, but the use of Belief-Space (to copy entire class levels) is important enough I'd mark it in the class ability column, so it's easier to tell at a glance when it shows up. Memory should probably be listed there as well. Basically, if you gain the ability to do something you couldn't before, it should be mentioned in the features column.

[GnomeWorks]

Ah, I see why I couldn't find it: it's under the example. I take it you see no problem with infinite spells then?

It's only infinite if someone else has infinite casting. At best, you're doubling a friendly caster's casting.


They're on the right with the other increasing pools of points, but the use of Belief-Space (to copy entire class levels) is important enough I'd mark it in the class ability column, so it's easier to tell at a glance when it shows up. Memory should probably be listed there as well.

Fair enough. I figured that, since the belief-space showed up at fifth level, and their only use for it was the ability to mimic other classes, that that would be sufficient.

Memory... eh. The class tables for paladins and rangers don't indicate they gain spellcasting when they are able to start casting spells; I don't see a reason to clutter the table with "hey, you've got memory," since it follows the same vein.

[GnomeWorks]

The first post of the thread has been modified; I've cleaned up some wording and included some more explanation of how the mechanics work.

Let me know if this helps, or if more clarification is required.