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Myth
2010-11-16, 06:39 AM
The party has to be:

4 PCs (leadership allowed, hirelings not so much)
ECL 20.

It has to be able to:

- Beat any kind of encounter with projected CR to a maximum of 24. - challenges proposed by GitP posters.
- Have tactical and logistical mobility with redundancy (fly, swim, burrow speed as needed, overland flight, teleportation, planeshift) and each type of mobility must be granted by at least two characters (so at least two guys who can Teleport the party for example)
- Have a reliable way to prevent/reverse TPKs and character death.
- Have all the immunities (single character or spread out amongst it's members), whether inherently or with preparation (all energy types, ability drain and damage, petrification, transmutation, energy drain, criticals etc. etc.)
- Not require massive preparation to be effective.
- Function efficiently in dead magic/AMF/Dispel
- Have a perfect scout who can hide, be undetectable by any means, and who has spot and listen maxed. Trap detection is a must but not necessarily for this same character.
- Have protection vs enemy scrying, especially vs. scry-and-die the enemy can employ.
- Have all the social skills maxed.
- Have all the knowledge skills maxed (Bardic Knowledge or similar things are a bonus)
- Can cast 9th level spells from all the major sources (Arcane, Divine, Druidic)
- Can function with self sufficiency if pitted in a situation where no help, shelter, food, water and supplies are available but there is daily fighting.
- Can reliably win initiative and/or not be flatfooted in any situation.

Coidzor
2010-11-16, 07:07 AM
So you don't need psionic or martial adept characters too, then?

Myth
2010-11-16, 07:31 AM
Psionics mimic the Arcane tree of spells too closely. They are allowed though.

Martial adepts are allowed, possibly needed for the "function inside dead magic/amf"

Last Laugh
2010-11-16, 07:36 AM
(Arcane, Divine, Druidic)


Don't druids cast divine spells?

Myth
2010-11-16, 07:39 AM
In essence - yes, but they have some unique spells in their selection warrants having them separate IMO. This could be said for Psionics but I figured that Druids have more "druid only" spells then Psions have unique Psionic Powers.

Eldan
2010-11-16, 07:42 AM
I'd say Archivist, then. You'll probably want something like Archivist (for cleric and druid spells), Wizard (for arcane spells), and then probably a gish of some kind for the melee fighting and a rogue/wizard hybrid for the sneaking.

Last Laugh
2010-11-16, 08:00 AM
a rogue/wizard hybrid for the sneaking.

A spellthief/wizard/unseen seer could probably fill this role. It has magic that supplements sneak attack, access to trapfinding, all of the sense skills, knowledge skills, social skills, and sneaking skills.

it also benefits from Master Spellthief.

Although the rogues evasion may be worth getting. especially since Unseen Seer has only 1 good save (will) and you would only lose 1 caster level and steal spells.

Gnorman
2010-11-16, 08:19 AM
Wizard, Archivist, Druid, Beguiler.

Two sources of divine magic and two sources of arcane. The druid can provide the muscle and the beguiler the social skills and stealth skills (will be stretched somewhat thin, though). All are full casters. The druid could potentially be subbed out for something more martially-inclined, but I see no reason to. The beguiler could be easily replaced with a factotum for higher function in dead-magic zones etc., but isn't as powerful of a caster.

Of course, the AMFs are problematic, but the Wizard can starting binding critters to help out there.

Myth
2010-11-16, 08:22 AM
Summons have short durations.
You can't summon inside dead magic/amf. Dead magic zones can cover entire buildings.
Summons can't reliably take on CR 20+ enemies.

Gnorman
2010-11-16, 08:29 AM
Summons have short durations.
You can't summon inside dead magic/amf. Dead magic zones can cover entire buildings.
Summons can't reliably take on CR 20+ enemies.

Hence the change to bound creatures, which sidestep all of those problems. Either the wizard or the archivist should invest in Malconvoker.

Last Laugh
2010-11-16, 08:38 AM
Binding creatures is a nice option, but I think there should be more than one way around an anti-magic field (bound critters can be dismissed, no?)
Warblade 20 with Ironheart Surge :P

Eldan
2010-11-16, 08:39 AM
With four people, at least one of them should conceivably be able to get out of the field and cast spells that go through it.

JeminiZero
2010-11-16, 10:11 AM
I don't think I can stat out a whole party, so I'll just throw 1 build here:

Melee Cleric
Air Race (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm) Feytouched: LA 1 / Cloistered Cleric 5 / Dweomerkeeper 6 / Bone Knight 8

Important Stats
*Wisdom: As your prime casting stat, needs to be at least 14-15, and all level up points go there
*Charisma: Needs to be at least 13.

Domains
1. Magic (Dweomerkeeper prerequisite)
2. Planning
CC Bonus: Knowledge (Swap this out for something else useful with Substitute Domain)

Feats
1. Item Crafting Feat of Choice (Prerequisite for Dweomerkeeper)
3. Magical Training (Gives Arcane Spells, Prerequisite for Dweomerkeeper)
6. Ocular Spell (Required to apply Persist to Delay Death)
9. Persist Spell
12. DMM Persist Spell
15. Sanctum Spell (Fake Level 10 spells to qualify Extra Spell Known to pick up a 9th level spell)
18. Extra Spell Known: Invoke Magic [LoM]

You can take an extra Flaws for extra feats. Notable, Power Attack and Practiced Caster Cleric are missing from the above.

Planning Domain Bonus Feat
*Extend Spell (Persist Spell/Dweomerkeeper prerequisite)

Equipment
*Armor should have Proof Against Transmutation.
*Silthilar Healing Blood graft (Fast Healing 2)
*Tome of Leadership (+5 Inherent to Cha, total 18 for 7 Turn Attempts, enough for 1 DMM Persist, without relying on Nightstick abuse)

Important Buffs
*Supernatural Invoke Magic (removes material cost)/Supernatural DMM Persist Delay Death.

Immunities:
Feytouched gives: Immunity to Mind Affecting

Air Race gives: Immunity to Suffocation

Bone Knight 8 gives: 50% Fortification, Ferocity, Immunity to Nonlethal, Poison, Sleep effects, Paralysis, Disease, Death
effects, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Physical ability damage, Ability Drain, Energy Drain, and death from massive damage.

Proof Against Transmutation: Immunity to Polymorph, Disintegration does not turn it to dust or reduce HP below -10.

Delay Death: Prevents death from negative HP.

How it Works:
This uses the standard combination of Delayed Death and Ferocity to keep fighting despite negative HP (and Silthilar Blood to fast heal back to positive territory between fights). Besides that, most of its immunities are extraordinary, requiring minimal buffing, and functioning even in a dead magic zone. Additionally, we apply Supernatural Spell and Invoke the Magic to Delay Death to prevent it from being dispelled/disjoined, and to let it function in AMFs. The one thing that doesn't function in an AMF (Proof Against Transmutation) will not be needed, since Disintegrate/Polymorph likewise do not work in AMFs.

Ernir
2010-11-16, 01:15 PM
Clerics with the Initiate of Mystra feat should be the clear solution to AMF/Dead Magic troubles.

SurlySeraph
2010-11-16, 04:19 PM
First off, any limits on what WotC sources we're allowed to use?

Second, we might want to note douglas's Team Solars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81794) for an example of what can be done with sufficient use of Shapechange and other spells.


4 PCs (leadership allowed, hirelings not so much)
ECL 20.

If the entire party takes Leadership, has at least 10 Cha, and has "great renown" (20th level, they better), a stronghold (again, 20th level), "special power" (20th!), that's an extra 4 17th-level characters. I don't plan to attempt a party with Leadership since statting out 8 characters takes quite a while, but just be aware of that.


Beat any kind of encounter with projected CR to a maximum of 24[/B]. - challenges proposed by GitP posters.

Depends heavily on the encounter, but OK.


- Have tactical and logistical mobility with redundancy (fly, swim, burrow speed as needed, overland flight, teleportation, planeshift) and each type of mobility must be granted by at least two characters (so at least two guys who can Teleport the party for example)

Shouldn't be tough.


- Have a reliable way to prevent/reverse TPKs and character death.

Are you allowing Craft Contingent Spell? If not, Tleilaxu Ghola's psionic "save game" trick should work, though I can't find a still-active link to it.


- Have all the immunities (single character or spread out amongst it's members), whether inherently or with preparation (all energy types, ability drain and damage, petrification, transmutation, energy drain, criticals etc. etc.)

Exactly which immunities do you want? You can't be immune to a lot of conditions, such as being prone.


- Not require massive preparation to be effective.

Subjective, but doable.


- Function efficiently in dead magic/AMF/Dispel

Hard, but doable.


- Have a perfect scout who can hide, be undetectable by any means, and who has spot and listen maxed. Trap detection is a must but not necessarily for this same character.

Not doable. I don't believe there's any means to avoid detection by Touchsight with the Transdimensional Power metapsionic feat attached. Evading Lifesense is also difficult, though a Warforged or Undead can also do it. And True Sight's a pain, though there *are* ways around it.


- Have protection vs enemy scrying, especially vs. scry-and-die the enemy can employ.

How much protection? Magnificent Mansion + occasional castings of Extended Transdimensional Fog Cloud (possibly with Invisible Spell added) should do for most detection methods.


- Have all the social skills maxed.
- Have all the knowledge skills maxed (Bardic Knowledge or similar things are a bonus)
- Can cast 9th level spells from all the major sources (Arcane, Divine, Druidic)

So we'll throw in an Archivist, and maybe a Factotum.


- Can function with self sufficiency if pitted in a situation where no help, shelter, food, water and supplies are available but there is daily fighting.

Easy. Hero's Feast, Rings of Sustenance, Magnificent Mansions, etc.


- Can reliably win initiative and/or not be flatfooted in any situation.

The entire party, or just one member? Getting the entire party never flatfooted *and* either a means of casting Celerity or arbitrarily high Initiative will be tough.

Preliminary plan:

The primary fighter uses the Troll-Blooded Bone Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9712439&postcount=10) trick (EDIT: which is quite similar to what JeminiZero, the undisputed master of Things That Are Really Hard To Kill, demonstrated above). At his 10th level of Bone Knight, he gains all the undead immunities except immunity to mind-affecting (easily obtained via Mind Blank), uses Flame's Blessing with maximum ranks in Tumble to be immune to fire (Searing Spell can still take him down, though), casts Energy Immunity (acid), and has been immune to damage since his 4th level in Bone Knight. Pretty sure there's a spell for immunity to petrification, not sure about immunity to transmutation. He can take the Time Domain in his Contemplative levels to get Contingency, for Resurrection if he is somehow killed.

The Scout will also be a divine caster. He's a Necropolitan Archivist/ Sacred Exorcist X/ Contemplative Y/ Divine Oracle 10. Archivists can cast any divine spell they can learn, and Necropolitan XP loss isn't enough to keep him from getting 9th-level spells, so that takes care of the divine casting requirement. I mentioned Transdimensional Touchsight above, but most means of detection can be evaded by being nonliving, ethereal, having Mind Blank up to evade Mindsight, and having a way to avoid True Sight. Warforged are non-living, and he'll use DMM Persist with Ethereal Jaunt, Mind Blank, and Nondetection at a high CL. If the rest of the party dies, he skips off invisibly to resurrect them, plus he can pick up the Time domain (from Contemplative) for Contingency to put Contingent Revive Undead on himself, so he can help resurrect the party if destroyed. Also, he's immune to surprise, even in an AMF.

The primary arcane caster would be best as a pure caster, but I like gishes. So I'm going with a Grey Elf Wizard 6/ Swiftblade 9/ Abjurant Champion 4/ Mindbender 1. +16 BAB, 17th-level casting, he can get Mindsight for excellent detection abilities, and he's pretty effective in an AMF. And can cast the various ridiculous Wizard spells we know and love, from Astral Projection on down.

The fourth member will be a Factotum 19/ whatever 1, probably taking Font of Inspiration 9 or 10 times. He'll have the maxed social skill ranks if I can't think of a way to give them to the other party members, maxed Knowledge ranks, and will serve to find traps and fill any gaps that appear, mostly using Use Magic Device, but capable of using all the maneuvers of a 15th-level Crusader or Swordsage in an AMF due to Cunning Brilliance.

Psyren
2010-11-16, 04:46 PM
4 Archivists with Cheater of Mystra/Invoke Magic

If Psionics Are Different, 4 StP Erudites

Myth
2010-11-16, 06:26 PM
First off, any limits on what WotC sources we're allowed to use? All official 3.5 sources.


Second, we might want to note douglas's Team Solars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81794) for an example of what can be done with sufficient use of Shapechange and other spells.Of course Shapechange has a duration on it's own and when it expires, or is dispelled or seen trough they revert back to their original forms. But noted, it's a fun build.


If the entire party takes Leadership, has at least 10 Cha, and has "great renown" (20th level, they better), a stronghold (again, 20th level), "special power" (20th!), that's an extra 4 17th-level characters. I don't plan to attempt a party with Leadership since statting out 8 characters takes quite a while, but just be aware of that.
I am aware. Of course the party that does not use Leadership will be superior to the one that does make use of the feat. By virtue of acomphisng the task with less resources (as in: less things that can be banned or DM governed)


Are you allowing Craft Contingent Spell? If not, Tleilaxu Ghola's psionic "save game" trick should work, though I can't find a still-active link to it.Yes it's a great feat and It's RAI equals it's RAW. It gives contingencies. Ain't balanced if you're a fighter but that's not my problem. :smallbiggrin:


Exactly which immunities do you want? You can't be immune to a lot of conditions, such as being prone. Anything you can be immune to. If the party encounters X obstacle they should be able to be immune to whatever it is either by default OR by preparation.


Not doable. I don't believe there's any means to avoid detection by Touchsight with the Transdimensional Power metapsionic feat attached. Evading Lifesense is also difficult, though a Warforged or Undead can also do it. And True Sight's a pain, though there *are* ways around it. I thought the biggest problem would be Mindsight. Also let me point this build to you (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9429287&postcount=421) it's supposed to kill a batman Wizard on round 1 (debatable) but IMO it has potential.


How much protection? Magnificent Mansion + occasional castings of Extended Transdimensional Fog Cloud (possibly with Invisible Spell added) should do for most detection methods.Enough so that those without access to Epic magic or are Deities cannot reliably find you and nuke you from orbit. Like say your friendly cabal of Liches who got tired of your party grinding them into flour.


Easy. Hero's Feast, Rings of Sustenance, Magnificent Mansions, etc.Good. I could step it up and say that it requires full autonomy from vendors and NPCs. Like if you were thrown in an endless waste filled with random encounters with demons. Weapons get sundered eventually. Clothes get disintegrated or burned. Magic items get Disjoined. This is an optional challenge however. Perhaps adding some artificer cohorts could suffice?


The entire party, or just one member? Getting the entire party never flatfooted *and* either a means of casting Celerity or arbitrarily high Initiative will be tough.Never flatfootd usually means Foresight which all of the major casters can get. Miles on end of Mindsight or any other ways of reliably knowing bad things are coming or are near is good. Greater Anticipate Teleportation is a must s well.

Preliminary plan:

The primary fighter uses the Troll-Blooded Bone Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9712439&postcount=10) trick (EDIT: which is quite similar to what JeminiZero, the undisputed master of Things That Are Really Hard To Kill, demonstrated above). At his 10th level of Bone Knight, he gains all the undead immunities except immunity to mind-affecting (easily obtained via Mind Blank), uses Flame's Blessing with maximum ranks in Tumble to be immune to fire (Searing Spell can still take him down, though), casts Energy Immunity (acid), and has been immune to damage since his 4th level in Bone Knight. Pretty sure there's a spell for immunity to petrification, not sure about immunity to transmutation. He can take the Time Domain in his Contemplative levels to get Contingency, for Resurrection if he is somehow killed.

The Scout will also be a divine caster. He's a Necropolitan Archivist/ Sacred Exorcist X/ Contemplative Y/ Divine Oracle 10. Archivists can cast any divine spell they can learn, and Necropolitan XP loss isn't enough to keep him from getting 9th-level spells, so that takes care of the divine casting requirement. I mentioned Transdimensional Touchsight above, but most means of detection can be evaded by being nonliving, ethereal, having Mind Blank up to evade Mindsight, and having a way to avoid True Sight. Warforged are non-living, and he'll use DMM Persist with Ethereal Jaunt, Mind Blank, and Nondetection at a high CL. If the rest of the party dies, he skips off invisibly to resurrect them, plus he can pick up the Time domain (from Contemplative) for Contingency to put Contingent Revive Undead on himself, so he can help resurrect the party if destroyed. Also, he's immune to surprise, even in an AMF.

The primary arcane caster would be best as a pure caster, but I like gishes. So I'm going with a Grey Elf Wizard 6/ Swiftblade 9/ Abjurant Champion 4/ Mindbender 1. +16 BAB, 17th-level casting, he can get Mindsight for excellent detection abilities, and he's pretty effective in an AMF. And can cast the various ridiculous Wizard spells we know and love, from Astral Projection on down.

The fourth member will be a Factotum 19/ whatever 1, probably taking Font of Inspiration 9 or 10 times. He'll have the maxed social skill ranks if I can't think of a way to give them to the other party members, maxed Knowledge ranks, and will serve to find traps and fill any gaps that appear, mostly using Use Magic Device, but capable of using all the maneuvers of a 15th-level Crusader or Swordsage in an AMF due to Cunning Brilliance.

This build is all kinds of awesome! Good work![/QUOTE]

kestrel404
2010-11-16, 06:31 PM
Not doable. I don't believe there's any means to avoid detection by Touchsight with the Transdimensional Power metapsionic feat attached.

Ethereal in an anti-psi/magic field. Since there's so little to 'feel' in the ethereal plane, not feeling a ghost due to the anti-psi field should work.

Give him the Extraordinary Spell Aim feat so he can AMF himself and still use spells. If Magic =\= Psi, then a 1 level dip of Ardent for the Magic mantle will make the AMF work against psionics.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-11-16, 09:55 PM
That Damn Gnome pretty much fits this. By himself. So does the Cheater of Mystara, due to being immune to AMF/dead zones.

Barring that, it's difficult to get flat immunities without buffs or toys, which means AMF removes those immunities, but also removes most of the things you need to be immune to from the picture as well. Although I suppose going with something like Necropolitian will make you immune to a whole host of things by template. Ghost template would make an awesome Scout. Natural invisibility and lack of noise, just get Darkstalker and you're all set.

So an all undead group might not be the worst idea. One Dread Necro to act as healbot as well as utility and battlefield control (who actually started out 'alive' and gained the litch template at 20). One Wizard/Incantatrix/Initiate of mystara, one Ghost Scout/Ranger Swift Hunter with a Ghost Touch bow and Darkstalker, and a ClericZilla. Toss in a pet IkeaTarrasque for fun.

Best way to avoid Touchsight? Simple, go through the ground. He doesn't have valid LoS on you, touchsight doesn't work. Tremorsense doesn't work because you aren't physical. Everything else blocked by Darkstalker. So the Ghost scout is immune to being detected, and can literally (by virtue of lifesense) skirmish you from less than 30' under the ground without ever giving you a viable target to attack.

SurlySeraph
2010-11-16, 11:00 PM
A ghost will need Nondetection to avoid Detect Undead, though, won't it? Or does that require line of sight?

Also, you could have a Necropolitan Psion (Egoist) metamorph into a ghost to save on the high LA. Or you could use that low LA ghost template from Ghostwalk.


I thought the biggest problem would be Mindsight. Also let me point this build to you (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9429287&postcount=421) it's supposed to kill a batman Wizard on round 1 (debatable) but IMO it has potential.

Nah, Mind Blank stops Mindsight handily by every interpretation I've seen. If you argue that it can't, things are harder; you can take a level in Hellbreaker (FCII) to shut down telepathy, though.

That build's good, but it's *not* immune to divination without an extremely weird interpretation of the Cover Identity feature. A paranoid wizard is unlikely to be comfortable with anyone sneaking around him regardless of said person's cover identity. I don't see any way that "immune to see invisibility and true seeing" can be a valid part of a cover identity when the example of a cover identity in the class writeup is "Murek, the tailor from Sumberton."
And if the Wizard has a contingent teleport that activates when he's attacked, not hit, he can escape with no trouble whatsoever.
It's an excellent anti-caster build nonetheless, though; Wizards have theoretical counters to everything, having some to that build isn't a strike against it.

Sufficient usage of Wall of Iron + Polymorph Any Object (say, iron to cloth) + Fabricate can allow for total self-sufficiency where mundane items are concerned. As for magic items, yeah, you'd want Artificer cohorts.


Never flatfootd usually means Foresight which all of the major casters can get. Miles on end of Mindsight or any other ways of reliably knowing bad things are coming or are near is good. Greater Anticipate Teleportation is a must s well.

Foresight's not too tough to get, yeah. Divine Metamagic + Reach Spell + Chain Spell + Persist is a good way to get it on the entire party. Any and all arcane casters can take a level in Mindbender for Mindsight, and Necropolitans can take Lifesight. I'd like to find a way to do this in an AMF *without* using Dweomerkeeper, but... wait, why am I not using Dweomerkeeper again? The party needs a Dweomerkeeper!


This build is all kinds of awesome! Good work!

Thanks!

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-11-16, 11:36 PM
A ghost will need Nondetection to avoid Detect Undead, though, won't it? Or does that require line of sight?

Something a lot of people forget about Detect X... 'Cone Shaped Emanation'. That means that if you don't think to point it DOWN, it won't spot ya. Plus, Duration: Concentration *MAX* 1min/lv. You have to *actively concentrate* on it, which means spending several turns spending a standard action concentrating to be able to use the damn thing. Not the best use of time.

Jallorn
2010-11-17, 12:40 AM
3 StP Erudites, and a Warblade.

Malachei
2010-11-17, 12:33 PM
For flexibility, I like the killer gnome:

Illusionist / Mindbender / Shadow Adept / Shadowcraft Mage / Shadowcrafter

Casting 160% (*) quasi-real evocations and conjurations at effective spell level 10th at caster level +7 (+11 against weave users) and spell penetration +11 (+15 against weave) is just nice.

(*) +20% more with Enhanced Shadow Reality (DR 325) for damage spells

The killer gnome's best friends:

o Archivist to fill cleric and bard / buffer role

o Wizard (Conjurer) / Master Specialist / Incantatrix / Dweomerkeeper to supply persists, planar binding and deal with AMF

o Rogue / Beguiler / Mindbender / Unseen Seer with Mindsight feat to serve as the scout

Myth
2010-11-17, 04:43 PM
*puts hands on hips* hey those builds look familiar. :smallannoyed:

Godskook
2010-11-17, 05:04 PM
How much cheese is allowed? My favorite starting point for that question is do you allow epic spellcasting(Yes, I can get it. Hell, it'd come with 6 epic spell slots).

Eldariel
2010-11-17, 06:21 PM
I'd just run 4 Twice-Betrayer Initiates of Mystra Dweomerkeepers (that is, take Twice-Betrayer & Cheater and combine them; it's rather elementary though so obscenely broken people don't really talk about it). Or really just DMM: Persist Clerics whose crap works everywhere. And then proceed to persist enough Supernatural Spells to be immune to everything everywhere and to have crap like Shapechange & co. to deal with everything (random forms give almost every spell in the game as a supernatural ability, which is nice). I guess you could True Mind Switch each of them into the body of something slightly durable like Big T. Not that it matters since they're immune to everything (well, Disjunction could possibly do theoretically something).

That's a reasonable level of optimization but doesn't use crap like Epic Spellcasting to make the multiverse weep a bit more. Of course you could technically just loop every single one of those into infinite stats and divinity with their spell access, but I don't find that very interesting so I'll skip it. If we really think we need someone with good oldfashioned Spot, we just give one of them Whispered Secrets (or Ruathar-level) & Planar Touchstone for Kobold-domain and have him max Spot, Listen, Search, Disable Device & co. and handle all that crap.


Honestly, you really should ban some of the stupidest **** for this to be sensible. Like most ways to cast spells in AMFs, and most spells that give you permanent underlings or something else equally retarded.

Myth
2010-11-18, 05:43 AM
Go for RAI over RAW. Anything done with the spell that was not supposed to be done is out. Favorite example: Craft Contingent Spell - strong but works as intended (gives contingencies). Gate - strong. Using Gated Solars to power Epic Spells - not as intended.