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View Full Version : So I was thinking... Will saves



Eldan
2010-11-16, 07:19 AM
I don't remember when it was, but someone mentioned in another thread that, if we go by classical fantasy fiction, fighter archetypes actually rarely have low will saves. Or rather:
While they may fall for illusions and other trickery that trickster or caster characters see through, they will rarely be magically dominated. Rather, they will tend to grit their teeth, maybe shout something, and beat the offending caster to a pulp with their weapons.

So, who, in fantasy, actually has low will saves? Casters seem to resist magic, they know it too well. Melee fighters and similar hero archetypes beat mind magic by sheer determination. Who else is there to actually fail their will saves?

hewhosaysfish
2010-11-16, 07:34 AM
I think you're barking up the wrong tree by dividing characters from published fiction into fighter-types, skill-monkeys and casters.

Protagonists tend to pass their Will saves; supporting and incidental characters tend to fail. "Character class" is not a relevant isssue.

EDIT: Although you're right to a degree: protagonists do tend to be fighter-types. But the link between being a fighting man and having a good Will save is due to a common cause (protagonsim) rather than either one causing the other.

shadow_archmagi
2010-11-16, 07:36 AM
general rule:


Melee protagonist: Wizard gets mind controlled by enemy wizard. Protagonist mutters "I told you don't touch that darn thing"

Wizard protagonist: Melee gets mind controlled by enemy wizard. Protagonist mutters "You idiots, only my superior training can persevere!"

Eldan
2010-11-16, 07:40 AM
Hmm. Right, then.

Rogues actually seem to be an exception. They are those who always touch the shiny thing and get possessed.

Though that may once again be a protagonist thing.

Myth
2010-11-16, 07:41 AM
The Plot Shield trumps any DnD mechanic you try to bring to actual novels.

Mastikator
2010-11-16, 07:43 AM
Fighters are (afaik) disciplined and trained, it makes sense that they'd have good will saves. Same with paladins imo.

Seeing through an illusion could be an intelligence check, or perhaps spellcraft even.

Rasman
2010-11-16, 07:47 AM
I think you're barking up the wrong tree by dividing characters from published fiction into fighter-types, skill-monkeys and casters.

Protagonists tend to pass their Will saves; supporting and incidental characters tend to fail. "Character class" is not a relevant isssue.

EDIT: Although you're right to a degree: protagonists do tend to be fighter-types. But the link between being a fighting man and having a good Will save is due to a common cause (protagonsim) rather than either one causing the other.

your key word is "protagonist" in this, so your real answer is "side characters and choads/red shirts/meatshields"

Eldan
2010-11-16, 07:48 AM
I've seen the suggestion of doing four saves in D&D, actually. A "skepticism" save for seeing through illusions and a will save for magical domination, but I'd rather not go there.

Mr.Smashy
2010-11-16, 08:03 AM
LoL.

I believe that published fiction has characters that are way above standard levels. Look at Conan (the Barbarian, not the late night TV show host), or Bremen (The Shannara series). These guys are way OP for the kind of crap they do. Occasionally they get hurt, or hit somehow, and judging by the rarity, i would say that they were Crits. Now if you look at some FR and DL books, they do not always make their will save, because the writers know the system and it would be total cheese for them to simply say "They always win".

shadow_archmagi
2010-11-16, 08:12 AM
I"m pretty sure that the talk show host would have a high will save too

Comedians get very good saves

Rasman
2010-11-16, 08:15 AM
I"m pretty sure that the talk show host would have a high will save too

Comedians get very good saves

...they don't get good saves against ratings though...

Psyx
2010-11-16, 08:17 AM
Take a leaf from that poxy drow's book: Take a level in Barbarian, then you can rage and that makes you utterly immune to anything that mind flayers can throw at you. The mindflayers will then use their mighty 20+ INT scores to keep trying the same tactic repeatedly, while you carve them up...

Psyx
2010-11-16, 08:20 AM
Comedians get very good saves

Poor Reflex, I'd argue. I've never seen one dodge a pie in the face.

Rasman
2010-11-16, 08:20 AM
Poor Reflex, I'd argue. I've never seen one dodge a pie in the face.

but they choose to fail those saves

lol...but, again, they can't dodge bad ratings

Tehnar
2010-11-16, 08:26 AM
In 2nd edition of ADnD Fighter types had the best save progressions (if I recall correctly). Why did WotC decide to change that beats me.

Maybe just give a good save progression in will saves to classes who you deem need it?

Myth
2010-11-16, 08:27 AM
The Berserker kit form AD&D was immune to everything but the kitchen sink when they raged. I used to love Korgan from BGII.

BobVosh
2010-11-16, 08:28 AM
but they choose to fail those saves

lol...but, again, they can't dodge bad ratings

Conan proved they can if they spend a ton of money. Making a big point out of it. (The comedian, not the barbarian. How tables have turned!)

Eldan
2010-11-16, 08:29 AM
He is... CONAN! THE COMEDIAN!

Now I'm imagining Arnie doing stand-up.

Radar
2010-11-16, 09:29 AM
I think the whole confusion is connected with unfortunate name of the save. Will saves are not about the force of your personality or your inner determination - they are about noticing, that someone or something is messing with your thoughts. All enchantments are about subtlety and making it so, that the victim doesn't even notice that somethings bad is happening to them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html).
That is the reason for them being connected with Wisdom score rather then Charisma.

RebelRogue
2010-11-16, 09:39 AM
He is... CONAN! THE COMEDIAN!

Now I'm imagining Arnie doing stand-up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDEuLXLNGBo

Mongoose87
2010-11-16, 10:12 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDEuLXLNGBo

Curses! Pre-ninja'd!

Boci
2010-11-16, 10:14 AM
I've seen the suggestion of doing four saves in D&D, actually. A "skepticism" save for seeing through illusions and a will save for magical domination, but I'd rather not go there.

The DMG has a variant rule to use a characters int modifier instead of wis for will saves against glamours.

Keld Denar
2010-11-16, 10:17 AM
Eh, it always struck me as more of a plot relevant IRON HEART SURGE!!!!!!!

Fail the initial save, have a slight plot induced moment of clarity due to orders contradictory to their nature, then ROAR OF EFFORT!

Person_Man
2010-11-16, 10:27 AM
A variety of game systems specifically designed to simulate that main characters can overcome things that easily work on everyone else (including death), usually through some sort of Destiny/Force/Action point mechanic.