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Steamsaint
2010-11-16, 08:10 AM
Basically, I'm starting off my campaign with each player individually and they're going to be kidnapped for various reasons and that's how they're meeting each other and escaping.

Any tips on capturing my players without making them feel bad?

Currently I'm planning on having them simply being overwhelmed with numbers, but it still feels a lot like railroading and also devaluing the heroics of the players.

EDIT: I should also add that this also places them firmly within the epic quest I've laid out for them, and that this is in 4e if that makes a difference.

mucat
2010-11-16, 08:44 AM
It's probably best if you use a different "trick" for each of them, tailored to the type of scene you think the player would enjoy. One might wade into a fight against overwhelming odds, and lose. One might defy a corrupt ruler, and be seized by guards. One might be trying to save a friend/lover/family member from danger, and succeed, at the price of being captured themselves. One might be carrying out an intricate plan which requires him to be captured, to infiltrate the enemy or bring a vital message to someone who is already captive. One might be trying to buy time for their allies to accomplish something important, and succeed in delaying the bad guys just long enough, though in the end they are captured.

This way, no one actually feels like they "lost" the opening scene. They all got a victory or a chance to shine -- cheerfully defying the odds, bravely speaking truth to power, advancing their Xanatos gambit, or telling themselves "Liz made it out; that's what counts."

Of course, in all these scenarios you want a backup plan in case the character doesn't react as you expect...but thinking on your feet is half the fun of DMing. :smallsmile:

PersonMan
2010-11-16, 08:49 AM
I'd just ask them. I mean, it's the first meet so you can't really spoil much of anything.

Just ask "If your character was going to be captured, how would you like it to be?", if your players stay within reasonable levels it should work.

Sir Swindle89
2010-11-16, 08:56 AM
if your players stay within reasonable levels it should work.

Thing is it's starting an epic campaign (granted 4ed epic) so the idea of them getting captured by anything other than like a dragon or the minions of hell seems unreasonable. (alghough having a character accidentally walk through a portal to hell would be hilarious)

Grogmir
2010-11-16, 08:57 AM
I wouldn't play this out at all - the adventure starts with them all kidnapped imo, Come up with cool reasons why / how it happened beforehand with the PCs, but otherwise - you've gotta railroad them so much whats the point in playing it out?

mucat
2010-11-16, 08:59 AM
Thing is it's starting an epic campaign (granted 4ed epic) so the idea of them getting captured by anything other than like a dragon or the minions of hell seems unreasonable. (alghough having a character accidentally walk through a portal to hell would be hilarious)

???

The OP didn't say it was an epic-level campaign...

Sir Swindle89
2010-11-16, 09:01 AM
I should also add that this also places them firmly within the epic quest I've laid out for them, and that this is in 4e if that makes a difference.

how did you interpret that?

mucat
2010-11-16, 09:03 AM
how did you interpret that?

I'm pretty sure he's using the word "epic" in its ordinary English sense, rather than as a term for a level range.

Dr.Epic
2010-11-16, 09:07 AM
Someone slips them a poison that knocks them out. Alternatively you could just start the campaign with them all kidnapped in the same room and leave how they got there a mystery (just say they each went through such trauma during the period they were captured they can't remember).

Pixiedragon
2010-11-16, 09:14 AM
If you're a bit of a writer, might it be an idea to let your PC's do some rolls for you, then write a short story for each PC how they get kidnapped? You can use the rolls to indicate how much they manage to resist, so they get a feeling of having added something to the story.
And overall, as far as I know of my players, they love reading stories that show how epic their characters are.:smallbiggrin:

Jan Mattys
2010-11-16, 09:16 AM
It's probably best if you use a different "trick" for each of them, tailored to the type of scene you think the player would enjoy. One might wade into a fight against overwhelming odds, and lose. One might defy a corrupt ruler, and be seized by guards. One might be trying to save a friend/lover/family member from danger, and succeed, at the price of being captured themselves. One might be carrying out an intricate plan which requires him to be captured, to infiltrate the enemy or bring a vital message to someone who is already captive. One might be trying to buy time for their allies to accomplish something important, and succeed in delaying the bad guys just long enough, though in the end they are captured.

This way, no one actually feels like they "lost" the opening scene. They all got a victory or a chance to shine -- cheerfully defying the odds, bravely speaking truth to power, advancing their Xanatos gambit, or telling themselves "Liz made it out; that's what counts."

Or even better: They do manage to get out of it all.. They get away with it, and the next time they stop at a Inn and have some ale, they fall asleep.

Cut to the kidnap scene, with a big grin on your face and a note reading "You thought you made it, uh?"

Psyx
2010-11-16, 09:28 AM
Currently I'm planning on having them simply being overwhelmed with numbers, but it still feels a lot like railroading and also devaluing the heroics of the players.


It is rail-roading, because you've already determined the end result.
Giving players the false option of escaping capture only to do anything it takes to nix it is going to cause frustration.

Personally, I'd take each character aside separately and narrate their capture, based on their background. Then start the game with everyone 'meeting' in a cell.

Steamsaint
2010-11-16, 09:29 AM
Great help guys.

Just to clarify:

The party is starting at level 1 but I'm hoping for them to reach level 30 and defeat a god etc. so yes, it's epic in the english sense of the word.
The point of the kidnapping is to provide a common cause and to serve as an introduction to one another
The characters are not adventurers at this point; one is a mercenary passing through town etc.
The kidnappers are in league with the town guards/officials for the most part, meaning that the party will have to deal with it themselves (apart from a couple of NPCs who are in similar positions but then will be taken out of action putting the PCs in the spotlight


Suggestions on how I could diversify the way they are kidnapped would be awesome as well - some of them are being kidnapped by reason of they are the kind of target the kidnappers are looking for, others because they witness similar events etc.
I know for a fact that I'm putting a new (as in new to D&D entirely) into the game with another experienced player at the same time.

Also, all I'm looking for are one or two encounters (the last in which they are overpowered somehow)


EDIT: I'm not quite sure whether I just want to narrate how the characters are imprisoned, it feels less personal that way, in that they won't feel so antagonised by the kidnappers. This way, I can already have a somewhat creepy monologue by a minor villain or somesuch.

EDIT: @Mucat, I can definitely use the loved one suggestions for one of my characters, but at least two of the characters are from out of town, and two of them are practically orphans (in entirely different and non-cliched ways, I assure you).

DwarfFighter
2010-11-16, 09:40 AM
Any tips on capturing my players without making them feel bad?


Start the adventure with them already captured. That's the most direct and fair way to put the PCs in a situation you don't intend to allow them to avoid.

However, players tend to be attached to their characters' stuff. So unless you really intend to screw them over, make sure that this will come back to them later. Simply tell them not to erase any of their equipment should put them at ease.

How did the PCs get captured?
You can tell them how, or even better: describe the situation they are in now and ask them how their character ended up in this situation. Hand them some xp right off the bat for a good stories.

Where's the stuff?
The classic is "in a chest outside the cell". You can spice things up a bit, though:

GM: "The guards dump all your stuff on a table, right there in plain view. They take careful notes and itemize everything down to the last copper piece. They label each item and put them into a big chest. The guard sergeant finally locks the chest and pockets the key. "The Master will be looking at this stuff later so don't touch nothing, you filthy maggots. Make sure our guests are comfortable and don't go nowhere!" He then exits, leaving the guards to discuss whether or not they're supposed to rough you up a bit or feed you."

So now that the players know their stuff is "safe" they should at least be able to focus on escaping rather than complaining that they were robbed.

-DF

Steamsaint
2010-11-16, 09:59 AM
Where's the stuff?
The classic is "in a chest outside the cell". You can spice things up a bit, though:

GM: "The guards dump all your stuff on a table, right there in plain view. They take careful notes and itemize everything down to the last copper piece. They label each item and put them into a big chest. The guard sergeant finally locks the chest and pockets the key. "The Master will be looking at this stuff later so don't touch nothing, you filthy maggots. Make sure our guests are comfortable and don't go nowhere!" He then exits, leaving the guards to discuss whether or not they're supposed to rough you up a bit or feed you."

So now that the players know their stuff is "safe" they should at least be able to focus on escaping rather than complaining that they were robbed.

-DF

That's not a bad idea, although at level one they don't have a great deal of magic items to be attached to. I'll definitely look at keeping the various family heirlooms etc. within their grasp however.

Psyx
2010-11-16, 10:14 AM
EDIT: I'm not quite sure whether I just want to narrate how the characters are imprisoned, it feels less personal that way, in that they won't feel so antagonised by the kidnappers. This way, I can already have a somewhat creepy monologue by a minor villain or somesuch.


Better that they not be antagonised with YOU, though.

I can't think of one 'plot kidnap' in a game or scenario that didn't royally annoy players. Giving them the illusion of free will while taking it away in an obvious manner is really soul-destroying. Especially at the start of the campaign because it automatically makes the players wonder how much choice they'll have in the game and sets a negative tone. Best to get it over with via a great narrative or written story - personalised for each player - and THEN start the game with them actually being able to steer the plot.

Also: Starting the game in-cell with characters coming around and not knowing each other is immediately bonding and a great way to start a story. Much better than 'you're all mercs' and then hitting them with bricks until they all fall over.

Mastikator
2010-11-16, 10:25 AM
Depends on who's doing the kidnapping. If it's epic then I imagine some super secret organisation of assassins or something like that.
They'd probably have some convoluted and unique way of kidnapping each, depending on the target's weaknesses.
Or maybe a group of archmages doing rituals that summon the players into a summoning circle where they're bound magically somehow.
Or maybe the good old "child in the middle of road, they walk up to child not noticing being surrounded by bandits" deal. I'm a fan of that one, but it doesn't have that epic feel.

You can make it not railroaded by allowing one of them a chance of escaping capture. Or all of them.

Steamsaint
2010-11-16, 10:46 AM
Depends on who's doing the kidnapping. If it's epic then I imagine some super secret organisation of assassins or something like that.
They'd probably have some convoluted and unique way of kidnapping each, depending on the target's weaknesses.

It's basically a convoluted power structure which will lead to the BBEG but is at the moment not an actual organisation, per se.


They'd probably have some convoluted and unique way of kidnapping each, depending on the target's weaknesses.
Or maybe a group of archmages doing rituals that summon the players into a summoning circle where they're bound magically somehow.
Or maybe the good old "child in the middle of road, they walk up to child not noticing being surrounded by bandits" deal. I'm a fan of that one, but it doesn't have that epic feel.

I've already included the lure of an illusion of an old face (one which is dead, killed by the party member in question) to lure him into an ambush, which will include a mixture of hired thugs and strange magics.


You can make it not railroaded by allowing one of them a chance of escaping capture. Or all of them.

Now this idea I do actually quite like - I hadn't thought of it, surprisingly, but now that I think about it, it may actually work.

Although... if some characters get captured and others get away freely, it does seem a bit unfair... *sigh*

The reason why I want to do this is because the chracters are otherwise an extremely diverse bunch - in fact, this is the reason that they are being targeted in the first place. For the most part, there is no reason that these people would get together (simply because they're unrelated, not because of alignment issues etc.)

mucat
2010-11-16, 11:03 AM
It is rail-roading, because you've already determined the end result.
Giving players the false option of escaping capture only to do anything it takes to nix it is going to cause frustration.

Personally, I'd take each character aside separately and narrate their capture, based on their background. Then start the game with everyone 'meeting' in a cell.
In an ongoing campaign, it would be too railroady, but as an opening scene it's forgiveable.

I did something similar to open a campaign I'm DMing right now: told the players "Once the campaign gets underway, it'll be a sandbox. But this first scene is a prelude, and I already know how it'll end, though not how you'll get there. So I request that each of your characters eventually make your way to such-and-such a location."

And they did, with lots of interesting character-establishing details taking place along the way. Once they were at the place I requested (which was a spot they all had a good IC reason to visit), things played out as I had planned, though they added all kinds of unforeseen twists to the action. They weren't captured as the OP plans -- that's not what the scene was about -- but at the end of the prologue, their mentor and strongest ally was dead, which had been pretty much inevitable all along.

I did consider starting the campaign after the death of the old mentor, precisely in order to avoid railroading. But the players all seem to agree that it worked out better this way. They had fun establishing their characters on a "normal" day before things got weird, they got to see why the mentor was important to them, rather than just being told that she was...and though the scene did end as I had expected it to, some of the crazy and unpredictable stuff they did along the way will have permanent effects on the campaign.

Damascus
2010-11-16, 11:06 AM
I am actually in the process of wrapping up a campaign that's been on-going for a few months now, that has the same basic concept.

Before I get into this story, I'll give you a summarized background of the region the characters are in (home-brewed world)... One quarter of a continent is Orcish lands. This extends from the Dead Pass to the eastern coast. The characters are in those lands.

-------Now then------
We started off as level 1 characters, and woke up with amnesia, shackled at the ankles in an enclosed room with no doors and no windows. After a certain number of tries, the characters finally got free. They then hoisted each other up to push the grate above them up/open so they could get free.

The room they entered was a torture chamber, and adjacent to it was a storage (they got their weapons). Slowly throughout the course of this dungeon, they remembered bits and pieces, until everything came back.

As they were going to leave, a group of Orcs showed up, and the characters were knocked unconscious with subdual damage. They woke up in a cage attached to a wagon/cart/whatever fits your fancy, and that drove into an arena. They were ushered out (shackled again) and forced to compete in an arena tournament. Eventually, they came up with a plan to get free, and are now on the run from Orcs.

Most of the fighting that they will do is against Orcs, Goblins, Gnolls, that sort of thing (at least in the land that they're in). The ultimate goal is to get out of the Orc lands (easier said than done), which is difficult thanks to the Dead Pass.

TL;DR version: Subdual damage for the knock-out.

Psyx
2010-11-16, 12:05 PM
In an ongoing campaign, it would be too railroady, but as an opening scene it's forgiveable.

Yes people STILL deride the opening Dark Sun scenario, some 15-20 years after publication!