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View Full Version : Best Bull Rusher that isnt a one-trick pony? 3.5



gallagher
2010-11-16, 12:13 PM
so i perused a different thread on here that was about dungeoncrashing, and i was wondering, what is a good way to incorperate the bull-rush onto a character, but in a way that wouldnt just make him be all about bull rushing?

i am assuming that i can do this in one of three ways.
A) TOB+6 levels of fighter
B) Psychic Warrior+6 levels of fighter
C) Cleric + 6 levels of fighter

i am only slightly familiar with tome of battle, so what would a good chassis to put this on be? i assume warblade would probably be the go-to for this, what would that build look like?

Psychic warrior would be interesting, as eventually you would be able to expand to two sizes larger, thus giving you a +8 instead of +4 as a size bonus to your bullrushing. too bad there probably wouldnt be enough room for tashlatora in here, because you will already be beefing up your wisdom for the power points, and animal affinity and inertial armor would make this all so much better. i like this versatility a bit more than warblade, but that is probably just due to familiarity

and finally cleric. i wouldnt just want to take a one level dip, i would probably be trying to make this into a persist-bot and take as many extra-turning feats as possible. i would want divine strength and righteous might to be persisted at all times unless i am going underground. it would help overcome the lack of BAB and points that i wouldnt be able to put into strength, thanks to the need for wisdom and charisma.

what do you think? what would be the best build from all of this? i am currently leaning on psychic warrior, picking up practiced manifester, earth power, and whatever feats that would make bullrushing more relevent. i heard that there is a feat out there that would let me bullrush with a shield or something.

Eldariel
2010-11-16, 12:38 PM
Warblade is good since it synergises with charging and bull rushing and doesn't lose as much as the others by multiclassing. Of course it's less powerful than Cleric even at Cleric 14 though. But there's even a maneuver that uses Bull Rush; combine with Dungeoncrasher 6, the Charge maneuvers, Rampaging Bull Rush (I guess you need Barbarian for that), Knockback, Shock Trooper and so on and you are a nice Dungeoncrasher with lots of things you can do with Bull Rush, and full maneuver access for everything else.

gallagher
2010-11-16, 01:11 PM
Warblade is good since it synergises with charging and bull rushing and doesn't lose as much as the others by multiclassing. Of course it's less powerful than Cleric even at Cleric 14 though. But there's even a maneuver that uses Bull Rush; combine with Dungeoncrasher 6, the Charge maneuvers, Rampaging Bull Rush (I guess you need Barbarian for that), Knockback, Shock Trooper and so on and you are a nice Dungeoncrasher with lots of things you can do with Bull Rush, and full maneuver access for everything else.

then i have two questions with that:
how much barbarian is needed? if i suck it up and grab the feral template, i will have pounce, some rakes, a rend, and improved grab... which all will make it look nicer as a more complete melee character that doesnt just revolve around bullrushing
and how much warblade is needed? i ask this because prestige classing is an option, and there are many prestige classes that would probably do well with this chassis. frenzied berserker looks like it would indeed be fun (going crazy and pushing everyone into walls and tables.

also, what are the rules for pushing something into someone else? for instance, say i am at a bar, and i get mad, so i push a table into someone. would the damage be the bullrush (for pushing the table) or an improvised weapon damage (for it being a table). i see this being similar to having someone fall on someone else (do they both take the falling damage of the original guy who dropped?)

Eldariel
2010-11-16, 02:00 PM
then i have two questions with that:
how much barbarian is needed? if i suck it up and grab the feral template, i will have pounce, some rakes, a rend, and improved grab... which all will make it look nicer as a more complete melee character that doesnt just revolve around bullrushing

Barbarian 1 is enough; you just need Rage for Rampaging Bull Rush [RoS], which is a hilarious way to knock people prone with Bull Rush. Pounce doesn't hurt, though Barb 2 could grant you additional toys.


and how much warblade is needed? i ask this because prestige classing is an option, and there are many prestige classes that would probably do well with this chassis. frenzied berserker looks like it would indeed be fun (going crazy and pushing everyone into walls and tables.

As much as possible, if versatility is what you're going for. None, if you just wanna deal tons of damage (though Warblades can certainly do that too). It's worth noting that Fighter 6/Warblade 14 still gets 9th level maneuvers on level 20, which is cool.


also, what are the rules for pushing something into someone else? for instance, say i am at a bar, and i get mad, so i push a table into someone. would the damage be the bullrush (for pushing the table) or an improvised weapon damage (for it being a table). i see this being similar to having someone fall on someone else (do they both take the falling damage of the original guy who dropped?)

I'm not sure if it would do much by RAW, but I'd imagine it'd be a lot painful to have a Dungeoncrasher smash a table to you than just a random guy.

Person_Man
2010-11-16, 02:06 PM
You only need 3 things for Bull Rush to work well:

A high Bull Rush modifier. This is usually accomplished by getting very big (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777). But you can also add on anything that boosts your Strength and Strength checks, like Marshal, Factotum, a variety of feats and magic items, etc.
An efficient method of getting Bull Rushes. Knockback, Brutal Surge weapon enhancement, Shield of the Severed Hand, various Tome of Battle maneuvers, etc.
Free Movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358). Pushing an enemy away from you can prevent you from making a full attack against them. So you need a way to follow up in order to complete Full Attacks. Alternatively you can just get ridiculous reach (see the getting big thread I linked to above) or a method of Bull Rushing at a range (Bloodstorm Blade, and maybe the Comp Warrior Knockback ranged weapon enhancement if your DM is feeling generous).


You can optimize it further with Dungeoncrasher, Shock Trooper, and dozens of other things. But it's not really necessary. And getting big/strong and getting free movement are good for a lot of things, not just Bull Rushes. So you're only a one trick pony if you choose to put all of your resources into it, which you shouldn't do.

Keld Denar
2010-11-16, 02:24 PM
Another fun thing to do is to take Dungeoncrasher1 (the first half of it) as part of a 2 level Fighter dip on your way into Suel Arcanamach. Fighter2/Warblade2/Duskblade2 gets into Suel Arcanamach just fine. If you do it on a Goliath chassis (buy off LA if possible), you can actually Knockback people from RANGE with the Whirling Blade spell. Whirling Blade is explicitly treated as a melee attack in ALL regards. That means you can PA with it, and thusly Knockback with it. Thats all kinds of silly, IMO. Also, since Whirling Blade doesn't specify a direction it attacks from, I guess technically you could read it as attacking from any direction you want, meaning that you could Knockback people TOWARD you if you so desired, or Knockback them laterally into a conveniently located wall.

gallagher
2010-11-16, 06:04 PM
You only need 3 things for Bull Rush to work well:

A high Bull Rush modifier. This is usually accomplished by getting very big (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777). But you can also add on anything that boosts your Strength and Strength checks, like Marshal, Factotum, a variety of feats and magic items, etc.
An efficient method of getting Bull Rushes. Knockback, Brutal Surge weapon enhancement, Shield of the Severed Hand, various Tome of Battle maneuvers, etc.
Free Movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358). Pushing an enemy away from you can prevent you from making a full attack against them. So you need a way to follow up in order to complete Full Attacks. Alternatively you can just get ridiculous reach (see the getting big thread I linked to above) or a method of Bull Rushing at a range (Bloodstorm Blade, and maybe the Comp Warrior Knockback ranged weapon enhancement if your DM is feeling generous).


You can optimize it further with Dungeoncrasher, Shock Trooper, and dozens of other things. But it's not really necessary. And getting big/strong and getting free movement are good for a lot of things, not just Bull Rushes. So you're only a one trick pony if you choose to put all of your resources into it, which you shouldn't do.

so then mixing it with a psychic warrior would actually work well, as not only can i get really large (double large thanks to augmentations) but i also get hustle and psionic lions charge...

all i would need is an effective way of constantly bullrushing and i am good. then i can just use my psychic warrior-ness to stay relevant since i can be versatile with that!