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Scarey Nerd
2010-11-16, 01:40 PM
As the title says, what do you think of the Necropolitan template? Personally I like it, but I am by no means an expert on them, and I'm interested to know what you guys think :smallsmile:

Halae
2010-11-16, 01:45 PM
Combined with evolved undead from libris mortis, you can become an undead that naturally heals at a rate of 3 per level, among many other nifty bonuses. even without that, the undead type is quite useful, particularly when you realize that never getting tired or needing to sleep means you can literally run for eternity and never need to stop, and immunity to citical hits has saved my ass from both enemy warriors and rogues. very useful, but the big drawback is the loss of constitution (despite the d12 HD, a big con modifier will, in the end get you more hp) and the fact that you have no negative end to your hit points - you are destroyed at HP 0

personally, I like using the template for dark mages, like dread necros. other than that, there's better choices in my eyes

Duke of URL
2010-11-16, 01:47 PM
Pretty much a no-brainer for a Dread Necromancer. The only drawback is if you're going DN 20 -- then you'll have to pay for a true resurrection so you can become a lich. But, since DN is an 8-level class, that's kind of irrelevant.

Starbuck_II
2010-11-16, 01:55 PM
As the title says, what do you think of the Necropolitan template? Personally I like it, but I am by no means an expert on them, and I'm interested to know what you guys think :smallsmile:

The 1000 Exp and 1 Level loss means you can't play one at level 1, but ECL 2/3 it becomes a good choice.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-11-16, 04:25 PM
This or being a Warforged are probably the easiest ways to get some blanket immunities. The only other way of that I know of off the top of my head that makes becoming undead easy is the Dry Lich template and its associated PrC, but that won't kick in until ~ECL 13 at the earliest.

Jarrick
2010-11-16, 07:04 PM
A warforged Dread Necro with tomb-tainted soul that finishes the Pale Master PrC gets everything (Immunities, and everything else but the d12 hit die) that an undead creature gets plus they cant be turned and still have a Con score.

You actually have to be 3rd level to become a necropolitan, since you lose a level (Which puts you at the midpoint of the previous level in XP, 500 for 1st) AND then lose 1000 XP. (making you dead.)

I like what necropolitan tries to do, putting an undead race into PC hands without a lot of the bells and whistles that most undead come with, but they need (I think at least) a flat LA (probably +1) instead of the level/xp strangeness.

KillianHawkeye
2010-11-16, 07:13 PM
It's too fragile at low level. My level 2 Necropolitan Dread Necromancer was bludgeoned to death by a 10-year-old Orc Sorcerer. :smallfrown::smallsigh:

Coidzor
2010-11-16, 07:19 PM
It's too fragile at low level. My level 2 Necropolitan Dread Necromancer was bludgeoned to death by a 10-year-old Orc Sorcerer. :smallfrown::smallsigh:

...I'm thinking poor tactics were involved here more so than the fragility of a level 2 character that can heal himself at will. :smallconfused:

You have a touch attack that can reliably hit and kill low level opponents and also works to heal yourself.

CodeRed
2010-11-16, 07:23 PM
Necropolitans are awesome in flavor. The only problem is that it can lead to some serious cheese. As a player I think they are cool but as a DM I'd only put one in the hands of a mature player who isn't out to "win the game."

Jarrick
2010-11-16, 07:23 PM
It's too fragile at low level. My level 2 Necropolitan Dread Necromancer was bludgeoned to death by a 10-year-old Orc Sorcerer. :smallfrown::smallsigh:

Wait, what???

How is that even...? No, someone messed up... He overcame your DR and your d12 hit die? Why didnt you just Inflict light wounds + Charnel Touch + (Optional) Unarmed strike him? (1d8+1d8+2+1d3nonlethal=KO'd half-orc npc).

Sophistemon
2010-11-16, 08:16 PM
Pretty much a no-brainer for a Dread Necromancer. The only drawback is if you're going DN 20 -- then you'll have to pay for a true resurrection so you can become a lich. But, since DN is an 8-level class, that's kind of irrelevant.
Off topic, and I only ask because I'm playing one:

Why is the Dread Necromancer only good up until 8th level?

Please pardon my ignorance.

Psyren
2010-11-16, 08:21 PM
Off topic, and I only ask because I'm playing one:

Why is the Dread Necromancer only good up until 8th level?

Please pardon my ignorance.

Most base classes have what is called a "breakpoint" - a point at which they get a great class feature, and the remaining class features they get are an acceptable opportunity cost for joining a PrC with greater benefits or multiclassing out entirely. Some classes (e.g. Fighters and Ardents) have multiple breakpoints.

At Dread Necro 8, they get the ability to control 4+Cha mod HD of undead per caster level (instead of the regular 4HD per CL). The other abilities aren't as strong, and so the only reason to stay pure Dread Necro is free lichdom at the capstone.

Sophistemon
2010-11-16, 08:23 PM
Explanation.
Interesting. Thanks for the information.

Psyren
2010-11-16, 08:36 PM
Note that by RAW, they can only control 4HD+Cha undead per class level with animate dead. This is a considerably weaker interpretation that makes multiclassing/PrCing much less attractive for them.

Was there errata for Heroes of Horror that fixed this?

Sophistemon
2010-11-16, 09:06 PM
Apparently not (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153557), unfortunately. I didn't even know that there were problems to rectify.

KillianHawkeye
2010-11-16, 10:19 PM
...I'm thinking poor tactics were involved here more so than the fragility of a level 2 character that can heal himself at will. :smallconfused:

You have a touch attack that can reliably hit and kill low level opponents and also works to heal yourself.


Wait, what???

How is that even...? No, someone messed up... He overcame your DR and your d12 hit die? Why didnt you just Inflict light wounds + Charnel Touch + (Optional) Unarmed strike him? (1d8+1d8+2+1d3nonlethal=KO'd half-orc npc).

Well, A) it was a 1-on-1 fight.

B) Healing myself for 1 point of hp a round is not a valid survival strategy during combat.

C) DR 1 is not going to make that big of a difference.

D) I was under the impression that I couldn't combine charnel touch with spellcasting.

E) I don't know what level the enemy was.

F) I didn't have a very good attack bonus.

And G) neither did the skeleton I summoned.

Coidzor
2010-11-16, 10:31 PM
B) Healing myself for 1 point of hp a round is not a valid survival strategy during combat. That's... not what Charnel touch does....


E) I don't know what level the enemy was. What level was he? Because by strict RAW he's below the minimum age to have a PC class level. So it sounds more like your DM screwing with you than anything else.

JaronK
2010-11-16, 10:35 PM
There was never an errata for DNs, and considering Undead Mastery and Fear Aura are both off class level, there's good reason to not multiclass out.

As for Necropolitan, it's a great template. Just make sure to become one near a desecrated alter for +2 HP/HD. If you can get a Dread Necromancer or UA Necromancer variant Wizard to do it, that's +4 Str/Dex as enhancement bonuses for free and an additional 2HP/HD. Ask your DM if Corpsecrafter would also help (though that says you have to be created by a necromantic spell).

One big piece of advice: use the disguise skill to seem alive. That way people don't specifically come after you with undead killing attacks.

JaronK

KillianHawkeye
2010-11-16, 10:39 PM
That's... not what Charnel touch does....

Oh really?


At will, but no more than once per round, she can make a melee touch attack against a living foe that deals 1d8 points of damage, +1 per four class levels. This touch heals undead creatures, restoring 1 hit point per touch, +1 per four class levels.
(emphasis added)



And I just said I didn't know what level he was! Why are you asking me that? :smallannoyed:

Jarrick
2010-11-17, 08:08 AM
That's not what charnel touch is for. Charnel touch can be used in conjunction with touch spells, like inflict light wounds, to deal a goodly amount of damage even at low levels. If you have to heal yourself, Inflict yourself instead.

Your DR was 2/Bludgeoning and Magic. Also, a low base attack isnt a big deal since you hit with touch attacks, which, btw, can be used with weapon finesse, which is good since casters should have high dex anyways.

More info can be found here: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook

KillianHawkeye
2010-11-17, 08:59 AM
That's not what charnel touch is for. Charnel touch can be used in conjunction with touch spells, like inflict light wounds, to deal a goodly amount of damage even at low levels. If you have to heal yourself, Inflict yourself instead.

There's nothing in the description to indicate that charnel touch can be used in conjunction with spellcasting. Absent of such a reference, the default RAW is that it requires its own standard action to activate. I also didn't have tons of spell slots to waste healing myself when the battle isn't over yet.


Also, a low base attack isnt a big deal since you hit with touch attacks, which, btw, can be used with weapon finesse, which is good since casters should have high dex anyways.

Low Strength and no feats to waste on Weapon Finesse. Anything else?

Jarrick
2010-11-17, 07:46 PM
Fixed the link. Also we dont typicially call names on the forums around here. It's rude. But, you didnt ask for my help so I shouldnt have offered it. Beg your pardon.

JaronK
2010-11-17, 07:56 PM
There's nothing in the description to indicate that charnel touch can be used in conjunction with spellcasting. Absent of such a reference, the default RAW is that it requires its own standard action to activate. I also didn't have tons of spell slots to waste healing myself when the battle isn't over yet.

Please see the rules for holding the charge when used with touch spells. Now look at the Charnel Touch rules. You can indeed hold a charge, then hit someone with Charnel Touch to do both effects. Vampiric Touch + Charnel Touch can be quite nice that way.

And you should have no problem hitting despite a low str score and low BAB at low levels... though honestly I wouldn't become Necropolitan until you can be effected by your Undead Mastery ability when you do it.

JaronK

Aquillion
2010-11-17, 08:02 PM
Necropolitans are awesome in flavor. The only problem is that it can lead to some serious cheese. As a player I think they are cool but as a DM I'd only put one in the hands of a mature player who isn't out to "win the game."In general, though, Necropolitan is nice in that it gives you a way to play a very different sort of character without crippling yourself (unlike, say, most of the monster classes, which tend to be poorly balanced on the 'suck' side of things.) It's also real easy to apply, so Jimmy can just say "hey, I want to be undead!" at almost any point in his character's progression and slap it on and you're good to go -- you can't really use Necropolitan 'wrong' (unless you have high con, I guess, in which case it's sort of a waste.) I like the fact that it doesn't require planning your character carefully from Level 1 to make use of it (although, granted, the nature of 3.5 means you're going to get punished if you didn't plan your character from level 1 anyway, but at least Necropolitan averts that.)

But yeah, the flipside to this is that it's potentially abusable. Still, it's important to make a distinction between abusable and inherently abusive -- Necropolitan itself is fine, it's only when you start to combine it in specific exploitative with stuff that assumed that the player wouldn't be undead that you get problems.

KillianHawkeye
2010-11-17, 08:45 PM
Please see the rules for holding the charge when used with touch spells. Now look at the Charnel Touch rules. You can indeed hold a charge, then hit someone with Charnel Touch to do both effects. Vampiric Touch + Charnel Touch can be quite nice that way.

I know about holding the charge, but spending 2 rounds to make 1 attack is also not a good strategy in a 1-on-1 fight at level 2.

EDIT: Considering this is all about a character who died a year and a half ago, please stop giving me suggestions on how I could have done it better. The point is that, even with a d12 HD and max hit points, the lack of that dying at -10 buffer makes low level Necropolitan characters too fragile.

awa
2010-11-17, 09:17 PM
you were a caster of course you were fragile. for a d4 hit die class jumping up to die 12 means an average of +4 hp per hit die which does a great deal to offset the fact you die instantly at 0 (thus the template is better the smaller your hit die is). in addition you gain a lot of immunities which increases your survivability. every one is in danger of being wiped out at low level its part of the way the game works.

from a meta game perspective if you our planing on taking the template right from the get go it means you can afford to dump con hard so one of your other stats will probably be a lot higher

Psyren
2010-11-17, 09:43 PM
you were a caster of course you were fragile. for a d4 hit die class jumping up to die 12 means an average of +4 hp per hit die which does a great deal to offset the fact you die instantly at 0 (thus the template is better the smaller your hit die is).

Nitpick: Dread Necro gets d6 HD

bannable
2010-11-17, 09:56 PM
Nitpick: Dread Necro gets d6 HD

He was a Necropolitan.

JaronK
2010-11-17, 10:09 PM
Yes, but it's d6->d12 for doing so. Still, if you do it right (next to a Desecrated Alter, do it with a level 1 UA Necromancer or a level 8 Dread Necromancer) you end up with D12+4 HP, and you can't do it until level 3 anyway. Plus you can dump con (and Str, especially with the +4 enhancement bonus you get) which helps your other stats. Either way, going from D6 HD to D12+4 HD is awesome... at level three you're looking at 37hp, which is far higher than you would have had at that level (with a con bonus of +2 you'd only have had 19hp, so you're way better off). And it only gets better from there at every level.

JaronK

Psyren
2010-11-17, 10:26 PM
He was a Necropolitan.

I was correcting the d4 starting point, not the d12 endpoint.

awa
2010-11-17, 10:35 PM
i was referring to necropolitan casters in general not the dread necromancer in particular

mikau013
2010-11-18, 07:49 PM
Yes, but it's d6->d12 for doing so. Still, if you do it right (next to a Desecrated Alter, do it with a level 1 UA Necromancer or a level 8 Dread Necromancer) you end up with D12+4 HP, and you can't do it until level 3 anyway. Plus you can dump con (and Str, especially with the +4 enhancement bonus you get) which helps your other stats. Either way, going from D6 HD to D12+4 HD is awesome... at level three you're looking at 37hp, which is far higher than you would have had at that level (with a con bonus of +2 you'd only have had 19hp, so you're way better off). And it only gets better from there at every level.

JaronK

It was my understanding that if you enter it at lvl 3 you get a d12 for your first hitdie, but if you lvl afterwards you revert back to the hitdie from the class you gain?

Thus you gain at lvl 1 : 12 hp + 4
lvl 2 : 6 hp + 4
lvl 3 : 6 hp + 4

thus max 36 hp at lvl 3 ?

awa
2010-11-18, 08:26 PM
undead always get d12 all past and future levels should be d12

JaronK
2010-11-18, 10:29 PM
Indeed, all your HD become D12s. As such, if you had low HD classes the HP gain from Necropolitan becomes VERY significant.

JaronK

Runestar
2010-11-19, 01:01 AM
undead always get d12 all past and future levels should be d12

Only for templates which explicitly state that all current and future HD become d12s.

For example, a mummy cleric10 rolls 8d12+10d8 for hp (see the mummy lord in MM).