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Idleone
2010-11-16, 02:12 PM
I was wondering if such a thing was out there?

Or perhaps a way to open up more spells to them? I like everything about the class accept the very limited spell list. I am trying to use it as my base class for a gestalt game, but wizard just seems more useful in combat.


I know combat isn't the only part of the game. As it stands now with the build I am looking at this is the only option I have to be more then just mildly useful during combat due to a power gamer being in the group.

Optimator
2010-11-16, 02:14 PM
No, no variants. Things like Arcane Disciple can add spells known.

Grendus
2010-11-16, 02:27 PM
Wizards are one of the most powerful classes in the game. Of course their spell list will be more effective.

Functionally, a wizard will be able to do the same thing as almost any other class at least as well (ever seen the thread about the wizard who out-melee'd the fighter? Yep, no contest). Beguilers are very good at what they do, but accept them for what they are - a very good attempt at toning down what is arguably one of the most broken classes in 3.5.

gorfnab
2010-11-16, 02:32 PM
Well there are a lot of prestige classes that would add spells to your list. Although there are two classes that come to mind that may help you. The first is Mage of the Arcane Order. You would need the feats Arcane Preparation and Cooperative Spell. Basically it would allow you to cast pretty much whatever sorc/wiz spell you wanted to. Another option, if you're a gnome, is Shadowcraft Mage. This one can turn your Silent Image spells into basically any conjuration or evocation spell you need.

Thalnawr
2010-11-16, 02:37 PM
Or you can go the Ultimate Magus route.

Psyren
2010-11-16, 02:50 PM
Exalted Arcanist
Sandshaper
Rainbow Servant (this one will get books thrown at you)

Fouredged Sword
2010-11-17, 12:49 PM
Let the other side of the gestalt be duskblade?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-11-17, 02:54 PM
Beguiler is excellent at buffing allies and debuffing opponents during combat. A Wizard will get better tools for this, but a Beguiler can do it well enough that it's still a viable choice. Outside of combat, a Beguiler has the perfect set of tools to succeed. A Wizard would have to rethink all of his prepared spells to be just as successful, and the Beguiler will still have way better skills. If you can get the feat Versatile Spellcaster to gain early access to the next level of spells, you'll get the next spell level one level earlier than a Wizard instead of one level later.

Expanded Knowledge is the easiest way to get more spells on your list, and there are some excellent choices available. With Versatile Spellcaster you can pick higher level spells, and with a single level in something like Mindbender at the earliest opportunity each Expanded Knowledge after that will fall on an even numbered character level for yet one level higher spell choices. A Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 14 with Versatile Spellcaster can pick a 2nd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 9th level spell for Expanded Knowledge. My favorite choices are Ray of Stupidity, Shadow Form, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Evocation, and Superior Invisibility. Ray of Stupidity will disable any animal in a single hit, and can disable most bruiser type opponents in only one or two shots. The Shadow Conjuration/Evocation spells will significantly expand your spellcasting options.

Another route to go would be Shadowcraft Mage, from Races of Stone. There are plenty of handbooks online, just do a search for 'Shadowcraft Mage Handbook' or 'Killer Gnome' and you should get an idea of what it can do.

For a gestalt character, you should probably give us an idea of what you plan to take on the other side of your progression. A Beguiler//Factotum or Beguiler//Warblade would probably be better off taking Wizard instead, since Factotum already gets better skills and Warblade would benefit better from the Wizard's personal-range buffs. Something like Beguiler//Psion or Beguiler//Archivist on the other hand could focus the psionic powers or divine spells on offense and all-day buffs, plus filling in the gaps where the Beguiler list is lacking, and use the Beguiler side for skills and noncombat situations. It really just depends on the character, but Beguiler can be extremely fun to play.

Psyren
2010-11-17, 03:18 PM
I'm a big fan of Exalted Arcanist for Beguilers. You immediately get some very sweet additions to your list (Planar Ally line, Heavenly Lightning, Holy Word etc.) which serve the double-whammy of broadening your spell choice and specifically hosing the Beguiler's bane, undead.

And then you get to the capstone, and learn every Sanctified Spell in the game :smallsmile: A grand total of 53 extra spells!

Exalted Arcanist also qualifies you for Thaumaturgist. Throw out some summons and illusions, and see if your foes can tell which is which. (Or your DM.)

AslanCross
2010-11-17, 06:47 PM
Is the Beguiler spell list really that limited? It gets almost all of the good Wizard stuff. It has the really good transmutation and conjuration spells listed. It even gets time stop at level 9. There are very few ways to get that spell.

The only thing it doesn't get is blasting spells, but you can either use wands with UMD or pick shadow conjuration or shadow evocation for Advanced Learning.

More to the point:

Lv 1: color spray, sleep, expeditious retreat
Lv 2: glitterdust, mirror image, touch of idiocy, whelming burst
Lv 3: haste, dispel magic, displacement, hold person, legion of sentinels
Lv 4: confusion, crushing despair, freedom of movement, greater invisibility, solid fog
Lv 5: dominate person, hold monster, mind fog
Lv 6: greater dispel magic, mislead
Lv 7: ethereal jaunt, spell turning, power word: blind
Lv 8: mind blank, moment of prescience
Lv 9: etherealness, power word: kill, time stop

It's almost like a list of Batman spells.

Psyren
2010-11-17, 07:09 PM
Beguilers are indeed great, but get royally hosed by AMF and SR due to lacking real conjurations.

(Though for many tables this can be a point in their favor.)

Thurbane
2010-11-17, 08:05 PM
There are two beguiler variants I know of:

One loses skill points. trades class features for others related to undead/necromancy, and focuses on necromantic spells - Dread Necromancer.
The other also loses skill points, trades it's class features for basically nothing, and focuses on blasting spells - Warmage.

:smallbiggrin:

Thefurmonger
2010-11-17, 08:48 PM
There are two beguiler variants I know of:

One loses skill points. trades class features for others related to undead/necromancy, and focuses on necromantic spells - Dread Necromancer.
The other also loses skill points, trades it's class features for basically nothing, and focuses on blasting spells - Warmage.

:smallbiggrin:

^^^Awsome, Loved it. And it's sooooo true.

Thurbane
2010-11-17, 09:14 PM
^^^Awsome, Loved it. And it's sooooo true.
Forgot to mention, both "variants" trade the coveted casting stat of INT for the less desirable CHA. :smalltongue:

Reynard
2010-11-17, 09:16 PM
If you consider the fluff, Beguiler should be Cha, and War Mage should use Int.

Thurbane
2010-11-17, 09:18 PM
If you consider the fluff, Beguiler should be Cha, and War Mage should use Int.
I agree with this 100%. It's like the designer of the Beguiler just wanted his class to be "better" than the other two "full class list" spont. casters...

Reynard
2010-11-17, 09:28 PM
Houserule ahoy!

And it doesn't really change much but boost the War Mage a bit in skills, and give the Beguiler a bit more synergy with it's class features.

But anyway, I've played both DNs and Beguilers. Dread Necros are more fun, especially when you turn that Huge Bulette your DM threw at you into personal transport.

EDIT: For the whole party, I should mention. And several chests that got bolted to the pelvis. And later, it acted as a sort of subterranean aircraft carrier.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-11-17, 09:30 PM
Well, Shadowcraft cheese will probably get you to a point where you're not worried about your powergamer friend any more. Mindbender and Mindsight is delicious utility, though I get the feeling you're less worried about utility.

As a hybrid style class, Beguiler has fewer combo-based options in a gestalt game without allowing for dual advancing PrCs (which is recommended against, for good reason). If you insist on sticking with beguiler, I'd pair it with Archivist for versatility or Psion for action economy, although Beguiler wouldn't be the definitive 'main' side at that point.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-11-18, 12:17 AM
I almost forgot, Beguiler can cast spells from every spell list you know if you take Versatile Spellcaster: "You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher." Take one level in Cleric, and you can cast the entire Cleric spell list plus any domain lists you get. Same goes for Druid, as well as Ranger/Paladin if you get at least four levels.

Beguiler is the perfect candidate for a Vow of Peace+Nonviolence build, your only damage dealing spells are the Whelm line which exclusively use nonlethal damage. Plus the aura of calm you project would possibly keep the rest of your party from even harming anything. The obvious route to those would be Vow of Poverty to use the bonus exalted feats, and of course since this is gestalt you may as well take Apostle of Peace as that's all the prerequisites. I'd probably go Paladin 4/ (Cloistered) Cleric 1 into it, and maybe pick up classes like Contemplative, Seeker of the Misty Isle, Divine Oracle, etc. Taking one Divine Oracle level on the Beguiler side would accomplish the same thing as the Mindbender dip for your Expanded Knowledge choices.

GoatBoy
2010-11-18, 01:27 AM
There's no ACF for the Beguiler, but there's one for the Warmage (in PHB2 I believe) called "Eclectic Learning" which allows the Advanced Learning class feature to be used to learn any spell from the Sorcerer/Wizard list, instead of only Evocation spells, on the condition that the spell be treated as if it were one level higher.

A liberal DM might allow you to apply this feature to the Beguiler as well, since they have the same Advanced Learning feature with the same restriction (Illusion or Enchantment spells only).

Thurbane
2010-11-18, 02:05 AM
I almost forgot, Beguiler can cast spells from every spell list you know if you take Versatile Spellcaster: "You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher." Take one level in Cleric, and you can cast the entire Cleric spell list plus any domain lists you get. Same goes for Druid, as well as Ranger/Paladin if you get at least four levels.
I'm not sure it works that way...a 1st level Cleric doesn't "know" any Cleric spells other than 0 or 1st level. I suppose you could sacrifice two 0 level Beguiler spells for any level 1 Cleric or appropriate domain spell, but not anything higher.

Even if you had more levels in Cleric, I would say a lot of DMs would argue that RAI, versatile spellcaster would only allow you to swap spells for others on the same list...

Idleone
2010-11-22, 01:59 PM
I am going to be joining a game where the DM has allowed me to play a Doppelganger without the LA(tho I have to buy the 3 lvls of HD). This game is an EVIL campaign with Gestalt characters. I will be starting at lvl 10 so far this is what I have come up with so far.

1) Beguiler/Monstrous Humanoid
2) Beguiler/Monstrous Humanoid
3) Beguiler/Monstrous Humanoid
4) Beguiler/Hexblade
5) Beguiler/Hexblade
6) Hexblade/Mindbender
7) Hexblade/Shadow Adept
8) Beguiler or Hexblade/Cabinet Trickster
9) Beguiler/Mindspy
10) Beguiler/Mindspy

The above was my 1st build, but I believe I end up going with

1) Wizard/Monstrous Humanoid
2) Wizard/Monstrous Humanoid
3) Wizard/Monstrous Humanoid
4) Wizard/Hexblade
5) Wizard/Hexblade
6) Hexblade/Mindbender
7) Hexblade/Shadow Adept
8) Wizard/Cabinet Trickster
9) Wizard/Mindspy
10) Wizard/Mindspy