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Otherworld Odd
2010-11-16, 06:04 PM
I've been toiling this over for about a week now and decided to ask you guys what kind of character you think Randall Flagg would be. Be it from The Dark Tower, The Stand, The Eyes of the Dragon, etc. I'm thinking Sorcerer or Psion of some sorts, although I have no idea what level he would be (Seeing as he's usually among regular people) or what alignment.

What do you guys think?

hamishspence
2010-11-16, 06:13 PM
He might actually be closer to a fiend, than to, say, a spellcaster. Immortal, and when the dog in Eyes of the Dragon catches his scent:

"But if she could have spoken, Frisky would have told them that the black scent approaching them from behind did not belong to a man; it was a monster chasing them, some horrible It."

Callista
2010-11-16, 06:15 PM
...Alienist?

hamishspence
2010-11-16, 06:20 PM
He might even be, not just an alienist, but some "horror from beyond" disguised as a human.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-16, 06:23 PM
Tsochari with a willing psion/Shadowcaster host? The Tsochari would have dozens of spell slots saved up from past hosts in a wide variety of spell lists, so he could heal/summon animal things/everything else.

Make it old enough and it would have all of the spells from every spell list, and its host could use none spells (like a Shadowcaster, a Psion, a Binder, etc).

Otherworld Odd
2010-11-16, 06:27 PM
That would make sense, since he has control over predators (Druid-like spells), among many other things that he's able to accomplish such as manipulation, telepathy, shapeshifting, etc.

Khatoblepas
2010-11-16, 06:28 PM
Randal Flagg is Nyarlathotep (honest. He's Stephen King's hands on Great Old One).

He's at least as powerful as, if not more so, than It. And It is a cosmic horror from beyond the stars.

How would you stat him? Easy, you wouldn't. He can do anything the plot requires, and is defeated by thwarting his plans.

But he'll always be back in another form.

Otherworld Odd
2010-11-16, 06:31 PM
Randal Flagg is Nyarlathotep (honest. He's Stephen King's hands on Great Old One).

He's at least as powerful as, if not more so, than It. And It is a cosmic horror from beyond the stars.

How would you stat him? Easy, you wouldn't. He can do anything the plot requires, and is defeated by thwarting his plans.

But he'll always be back in another form.

Didn't Mordred flat-out kill him in The Dark Tower though?

Thurbane
2010-11-16, 06:33 PM
Wait wait wait...Randall Flagg is in books other than The Stand? I did not know that...

Otherworld Odd
2010-11-16, 06:36 PM
Wait wait wait...Randall Flagg is in books other than The Stand? I did not know that...

Yeah, he's actually a pretty large character in The Dark Tower series (Which is a great series, btw. I highly recommend it.)

I've never read Eyes of The Dragon myself, but he's in that one too.

Khatoblepas
2010-11-16, 06:36 PM
Didn't Mordred flat-out kill him in The Dark Tower though?

The power of plot. Also I have not yet read that far into The Dark Tower :P

To clarify, sure, you can BEAT Nyarly. it's just supposed to be something that's not easy to do by conventional means.

SurlySeraph
2010-11-16, 06:44 PM
Yeah, The Dark Tower made it clear that
Flagg was once human, and quite weak, and gained his power through magic. And that he really isn't very difficult to kill.

Flagg's demonstrated or stated powers include animal control, telepathy, teleportation, levitation, causing disease, calling down lightning, contingent reincarnation or resurrection on death, and instantly killing small animals with no apparent effort ("When he grins, birds fall dead off the telephone lines"). So yeah, clearly some kind of caster. Eyes of the Dragon also indicates skill with poison, and some combat ability (he worked as an executioner, if I remember correctly).

I'd lean towards Sorcerer since he's tremendously charismatic and persuasive, though of course he's very intelligent as well, and holds no real loyalty to any deity. Flagg's Wisdom seems to be in the average range; he gets tricked a fair number of times and succumbs to hubris, though he's certainly not stupid. However, Cleric of an ideal (perhaps Envy or Evil) would work, and would be a way to help him get the aforementioned Contingent Reincarnation effect within the rules.

As for race, starting human and gaining a template such that he's no longer human makes sense. I can see the arguments for Alienist, but the Wisdom drop, summoning, and penalties to social skills don't really make sense - unless his Charisma is already so through the roof that they don't matter.

Alignment? Neutral Evil. Absolutely, absolutely neutral evil.

hamishspence
2010-11-16, 06:49 PM
The scene in Eyes of the Dragon when Flagg is shot, might provide some clues- he has black body fluid, and his body disappears, but for a moment, his clothes still hold their shape.

Spoilered for those that haven't read the book:
Foe-Hammer was perhaps the greatest arrow ever made, its bolt of sandalwood, its three feathers honed from the wing of an Anduan peregrine, its tip of flashed steel. It grew hot at the draw; he felt its heat bake his face like an open furnace.

"You told me only lies, magician," Thomas said softly. He released.

The arrow flew from the bow. As it crossed the room, it passed directly through the centre of Leven Valera's locket, which still dangled from the stunned Peter's outstretched fist. The gold chain parted with a tiny chink! sound.

As I have told you, even since that night in the north forests when he and the troop he had commanded had camped following their fruitless expedition in search of the exiles, Flagg had been plagued by a dream he couldn't remember. He always awoke from it with his hand pressed to his left eye, as if he had been wounded there. The eye would burn for some minutes after he awoke, although he could find nothing wrong with it.

Now the arrow of Roland, bearing the heart-shaped locket of Valera on its tip, flew across Roland's sitting room and plunged into that eye.

Flagg screamed. The two-bladed axe dropped from his hands, and the haft of that blood-soaked weapon shattered apart once and for all when it struck the floor. He staggered backward, one eye glaring at thomas. The other had been replaced by a golden heart with Peter's blood drying at the tip. From around the edges of that heart, some stinking black fluid- it was most assuredly not blood- dribbled out.

Flagg shrieked again, dropped to his knees-
-and suddenly, he was gone.

Peter's eyes widened. Ben Staad cried out. For a moment Flagg's clothes held his shape; for a moment the arrow hung in empty air with the pierced heart dangling from it. Then the clothes crumpled and Foe-Hammer clattered to the cobbles. Its steel tip was smoking. So it had smoked, long ago, when Roland had pulled it from the dragon's throat. The heart glowed dull red for a moment and forever after its shape was branded into the stones where it fell when the magician disappeared.

Earlier in the book, he is reading what sounds awfully like the Necronomicon for that world. "written on the high, distant plains of Leng by a madman called Alhazred".

Since "to read it too long is to risk madness" he's only got through a quarter of it through a thousand years of reading.

Otherworld Odd
2010-11-16, 06:56 PM
The scene in Eyes of the Dragon when Flagg is shot, might provide some clues- he has black body fluid, and his body disappears, but for a moment, his clothes still hold their shape.

Spoilered for those that haven't read the book:
Foe-Hammer was perhaps the greatest arrow ever made, its bolt of sandalwood, its three feathers honed from the wing of an Anduan peregrine, its tip of flashed steel. It grew hot at the draw; he felt its heat bake his face like an open furnace.

"You told me only lies, magician," Thomas said softly. He released.

The arrow flew from the bow. As it crossed the room, it passed directly through the centre of Leven Valera's locket, which still dangled from the stunned Peter's outstretched fist. The gold chain parted with a tiny chink! sound.

As I have told you, even since that night in the north forests when he and the troop he had commanded had camped following their fruitless expedition in search of the exiles, Flagg had been plagued by a dream he couldn't remember. He always awoke from it with his hand pressed to his left eye, as if he had been wounded there. The eye would burn for some minutes after he awoke, although he could find nothing wrong with it.

Now the arrow of Roland, bearing the heart-shaped locket of Valera on its tip, flew across Roland's sitting room and plunged into that eye.

Flagg screamed. The two-bladed axe dropped from his hands, and the haft of that blood-soaked weapon shattered apart once and for all when it struck the floor. He staggered backward, one eye glaring at thomas. The other had been replaced by a golden heart with Peter's blood drying at the tip. From around the edges of that heart, some stinking black fluid- it was most assuredly not blood- dribbled out.

Flagg shrieked again, dropped to his knees-
-and suddenly, he was gone.

Peter's eyes widened. Ben Staad cried out. For a moment Flagg's clothes held his shape; for a moment the arrow hung in empty air with the pierced heart dangling from it. Then the clothes crumpled and Foe-Hammer clattered to the cobbles. Its steel tip was smoking. So it had smoked, long ago, when Roland had pulled it from the dragon's throat. The heart glowed dull red for a moment and forever after its shape was branded into the stones where it fell when the magician disappeared.

A similar thing happens in The Stand:
When Trashcan Man brings back the a-bomb, or h-bomb or whatever it was, I forgot, and the "hand of god" sets it off, Flagg seems to disappear and his clothes hold the shape for a few seconds before dropping or being vaporized or whatever happened to them. He woke up at the end of the book on a island filled with savages.

hamishspence
2010-11-16, 07:07 PM
I've never read Eyes of The Dragon myself, but he's in that one too.

I suspect you'd like it- though it's more fantasy, and less post-apocalyptic, than The Dark Tower.

Noedig
2010-11-16, 07:13 PM
Mr. Flagg is bad news, and I simply leave him at that. Stats lessen him.

Mewtarthio
2010-11-16, 07:27 PM
Yeah, The Dark Tower made it clear that
Flagg was once human, and quite weak, and gained his power through magic. And that he really isn't very difficult to kill.

Flagg is powerful, but the Crimson King is on a level above even him, and Mordred is the Crimson King's son. Yeah, he died easily, but that's because he was taking on a creature way out of his league.

Re: His powers: I haven't read Eyes of the Dragon, but from The Stand and The Dark Tower, I'd say a large portion of his power is reliant on his victims' fear. Flagg takes great pains to keep everyone under him in a constant state of terror, and he can back up his threats with some pretty impressive tricks, but he's surprisingly ineffective against people who dare to call him out. You'll notice that he's actually afraid of anyone who believes they can pose a threat to him, regardless of their capabilities.

SurlySeraph
2010-11-16, 07:42 PM
Point taken. I thought the idea was that Flagg's hubris made him think Mordred was no threat, and that he probably could have escaped or killed Mordred if he realized the lil' spiderkid wasn't gullible.

Good point on how a lot of his power is psychological and resistance scares him.

Currently, I'm thinking Sorcerer 5/ Mindbender 1 to start out. Mindbender so he can read minds and take Mindsight (I don't recall anyone ever sneaking up on Flagg completely unaware, and it would explain how he found Lloyd in the prison). One or more levels in Wayfarer Guide would work as an explanation for how Flagg covers so much ground, though Shadow Walk, etc. means it's not necessary. Levels in Cleric or Archivist (of the Crimson King, evil as an ideal, or suchlike) will probably be necessary for his life-restoring abilities (on himself, and on the man he brings back to life in the first Dark Tower book), though thinking of Flagg as a Mystic Theurge is kind of painful.
Shadowcrafter might work, for becoming an outsider and more skill with illusions (like the illusionary buildings he creates in book... 4, I think... of The Dark Tower).

He'd have spells for all the abilities we've mentioned above, but definitely be focused on enchantment and illusion.

Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, Disguise, and all Knowledges should be maxed.

Urpriest
2010-11-16, 07:46 PM
Wasn't there a Flagg-related entry in one of the Iron Chefs? Pyrokineticist I think, with levels in Jade Pheonix Mage.

SurlySeraph
2010-11-16, 07:59 PM
Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8991354&postcount=223) Basically the Trashcan Man from The Stand, except a magical pyromaniac focused on fighting instead of a magical pyromaniac focused on acquiring weapons.

Otherworld Odd
2010-11-16, 10:36 PM
I like the Mindbender thing. It would make sense, since he knows how The Kid is after him even before he reaches Vegas, and the same with the spies sent over, besides Tom of course. He'd definitely have to have some sort of telepathic ability or else it wouldn't make much sense.

And yeah, I'm definitely going to read Eyes of the Dragon. I just finished The Stand and haven't received my next paycheck however. This weekend. >.>


Personally, I think Flagg would have had a chance against Mordred if he didn't fall into his trap and if Mordred couldn't read minds. All in all, he just became too gullible thinking that Mordred would side with him.

Mewtarthio
2010-11-16, 11:59 PM
I like the Mindbender thing. It would make sense, since he knows how The Kid is after him even before he reaches Vegas, and the same with the spies sent over, besides Tom of course. He'd definitely have to have some sort of telepathic ability or else it wouldn't make much sense.

I'd argue against giving him class levels at all, though. Walter o'Dim may have been human at one point, but Randall Flagg is something else entirely.

Otherworld Odd
2010-11-17, 01:32 AM
I'd argue against giving him class levels at all, though. Walter o'Dim may have been human at one point, but Randall Flagg is something else entirely.

So what a good chunk of you guys seem to be suggesting is if he were a character in some sort of RPG game, he would be an entirely plot-driven character. That makes sense too.

Scarey Nerd
2010-11-17, 03:50 AM
So what a good chunk of you guys seem to be suggesting is if he were a character in some sort of RPG game, he would be an entirely plot-driven character. That makes sense too.

In the same way that Dr Manhatten should have 21 levels in Plot Device, Flagg is an unimaginably powerful magician whose full powers have never been shown in any books involving him. In The Eyes of the Dragon:

Flagg is shown as a force of chaos. He only exists to bring misery to the kingdom of Delain, and has been doing so for about 1000 years. He is cruel, strong, twisted and more than a little bit insane, but cold and calculating with it. However, throughout the entire book, he barely casts any significant spells, trusting rather in manipulation and poison to do his work. His powers could easily exeed anything that a D&D class could giv him, no matter how much multiclassing and trickery is involved.

He could have destroyed all of Delain with but a thought, but he doesn't want to destroy. He wants unbridled chaos, revolutions, revolts, murder, regicide, blood. Because that way it's more fun, and he can come back and do it again, and again, and again. For millenia.

Yes, I'm a Flagg-lover. Sue me.

Lost Demiurge
2010-11-17, 10:58 AM
The way I see it, Flagg is a supremely powerful magician, who remains human at the core of it. He's as squishy as any other person, but as long as he has time to prepare, he can put up contingencies left and right to defend against damn near anything.

The problem comes when something arises he didn't prepare for. Unexpected resistance, or a surprise assault in an uncommon manner.

Like, oh, a locket taking out his eye. Arrows you can spell against, but who puts up protective charms against JEWELERY?

He also can't do ANYTHING. Magic's got limits and prices, and he tends to reserve his power for things he's willing to pay the price on.

Otherworld Odd
2010-11-17, 06:49 PM
Everyone agrees to Neutral Evil though? I'm not very good with alignments so I don't know. >.>

Scarey Nerd
2010-11-18, 02:52 AM
Everyone agrees to Neutral Evil though? I'm not very good with alignments so I don't know. >.>

I'm not as well-versed with Dark Tower as I'd like to be, but in EotD I'd say he was NE with CE tendencies, as he wants chaos and ruin, but shows huge amounts of self-discipline. Up until: The little bit where he goes a teency bit... insane... yeah...

Amphetryon
2010-11-18, 10:08 AM
Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8991354&postcount=223) Basically the Trashcan Man from The Stand, except a magical pyromaniac focused on fighting instead of a magical pyromaniac focused on acquiring weapons.

People remembered and linked my stuff! *SQUEEEEE!* Ahem. :smallredface:
Sorry I have nothing more useful to add.