Does Tarquin care about the people of the Western Continent? [Archive]

Gift Jeraff

2010-11-16, 07:08 PM

I know I said in the comic discussion thread that I hope he turns out to truly sorta-care for the people, but now that I think about it, maybe he just wants to be a hero? It fits, I think. Ego-driven, yet explains why he is proud that Elan is a protagonist (yes, villains can be protagonists, but he also asked if he thwarted any villains yet, which tells me that he knows Elan is a hero) and why he seems disgusted by Nale.

Plus, it would allow Elan or Roy to give an awesome speech on what a hero truly is. Preferably Elan, since Roy already gave his grand character-defining speech to Xykon.

kyoryu

2010-11-16, 07:11 PM

Meh. His "saving needless deaths" bit sounds more like a rationalization for his actions than a motivation.

Mando Knight

2010-11-16, 07:12 PM

It's a possibility he actually cares in his own tyrannical way (or thinks he does), but all too many evil dictators use that reason as an excuse and façade. Until he does something actually compassionate for them, I'm inclined to say that he's bluffing... possibly lying to himself as much as he is to Elan about it.

Eldan

2010-11-16, 07:12 PM

Why would Tarquin start being honest now? :smallamused:

EDIT::: Let's not forget that his whole pitch to his party members was about becoming filthy rich. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html) Not exactly up there on the list of the altruistic. :smallamused:

If he pulls it off correctly, he can do both. Be filthy rich *and* bring peace.

Porthos

2010-11-16, 07:18 PM

If he pulls it off correctly, he can do both. Be filthy rich *and* bring peace.

He also mentioned "forging the greatest empire ever seen". Which suggest that he is more than a bit enamored with power and glory.

Also, given Tarquin's well established slippery use of language, I'd look for possible loopholes in the line about "into three states that have no incentive to fight one another, we'll elminate the conflicts and deaths that they bring."

Or, to put it another way, Tarquin has shown that it is a terrible mistake to take him figuratively. It is far more important to listen to what he doesn't say rather than what he does say. Problem is, it's kinda hard to know what he isn't saying until it's too late. :smalltongue:

Morquard

2010-11-16, 07:26 PM

It's possible that he actually believes what he does is for the greater good of those people.
Maybe it is, who knows. We don't really know how much the people were actually affected by those constant wars and new rulers and such in the times before Tarquins masterplan.

But don't let yourself be fooled, it is not his driving motivation. He wants power, simple as that.
If that means the people are safer from war, because now its basicly one big empire which doesn't fight iself, instead of 30 small ones that do, then that's a nice byproduct.
But if for his goal he had to kill half the people on the continent then I have no doubt he would do it too.

He's not a chaotic evil sadist who relishes in destruction and misery, so he won't go out of his way and slaughter thousands of people if he doesn't have to (but won't go out of his way to safe them either, it just happens)

Mando Knight

2010-11-16, 07:37 PM

We all know where this is leading, anyway.

Tarquin will show Elan that he's going to make him an important official in the Empire. Elan will refuse, and they fight. Elan loses his hand, backs up on an outcropping. Tarquin stands on the balcony, beckoning him back. "Join me, and we can rule the continent together, as father and son."

Elan shouts a long "Noooooo" and jumps down. Haley or Roy arrives just in time to catch him. As they run from the Empire, Tarquin sends him a Sending to call him back yet again.

Morquard

2010-11-16, 07:39 PM

Why does everyone think Elan will loose a hand. Did I forget some prophecy or is that just because Luke did to Vader?

zimmerwald1915

2010-11-16, 07:43 PM

I think it far more likely that he loses an eye.

BRC

2010-11-16, 07:43 PM

Why does everyone think Elan will loose a hand. Did I forget some prophecy or is that just because Luke did to Vader?
Just a Star Wars reference.

And I doubt Tarquin set up this system of puppet empires in order to prevent needless conflict (It sounds like lots of that happens anyway, it's just Tarquin and Co overthrowing themselves)

Kish

2010-11-16, 08:02 PM

Why would anyone think Tarquin cared about the people of the Western Continent?

We've been having our noses mashed in how utterly vile the Empire of Blood is. Now he spells out that he has more responsibility for everything there than any other single entity.

Onyavar

2010-11-16, 08:10 PM

Heh.
Did anyone here read the Midkemia Saga? (and related books)

I'm talking about the Serpent War.

Western continent Novindus, quite similar in shape to our Western Continent, also a lot of deserts there.

Serpent Queen as puppet master is conquering the whole continent under disguise, destabilizing all the city states before conquer. Then, all the continents resources are used to ship the whole continents population (in form of a great army) to the larger continent in the Northeast (on the other half of the world), to conquer the whole world.

Any parallels? Meh, unlikely. Rich would not produce a rip-off.

I will shortly answer the OP: Yes, Tarquin does care about of "his" people. As fighters for his army, as pleasure slaves for him, as tools to keep him in power, as resource...

Xykon also cares about his zombies, since it is exhausting and timecostly to "recruit" them. Tarquin would not need Xykons lesson on power.

Morquard

2010-11-16, 08:12 PM

Why would anyone think Tarquin cared about the people of the Western Continent?
Because he basicly says that, and we're now discussing if he actually does.
I don't think he really does, as I said before.

If the people are better of or not... who knows.

"Hey did you hear, our nation got conquered again, third time this year. We're now the Tyrany of Cruelty and not the Empire of Doom anymore" - "Oh really? No didn't know that. What do you think how long this one will last?"

Seriously, if noone except the rulers were really affected by all those wars that happen, then they're probably not better of now than they were before.
However if villages got burned each time a new ruler conquered the empire, then now they probably are better of, seeing as the ruler defacto stay the same, they most likely don't want to burn their new-old empire to the ground when "taking it over".

The Pilgrim

2010-11-16, 08:27 PM

Very few people are like Xykon, being a monster and rolling with it. Most people don't like to think themselves as evil, so they need to justify their evil acts somehow.

We have plenty examples in read life. {Scrubbed}

In comic, Tarquin represents a half-way between Xykon (the complete monster who accepts it and likes it) and Redcloak (evil "for a good cause" crap). Tarquin doesn't buys he is doing it for the welfare of people, he does it to satisfy his own power hunger and knows it. He just rationalizes that his powerhunger is good for the people, too. Sort of "individual selfishness benefits the colective".

B. Dandelion

2010-11-16, 08:43 PM

Nope. It's always been about him. His own greed and megalomania. The people? He scarcely thinks of them as people, when you get down to it. Just last comic he openly admitted to having upped the violence level of the conquest just out of spite. He'd justify slavery via the same logic he's feeding Elan here. Keeps 'em fed, don't it? And some people just can't handle freedom. All of this from the guy obviously reaping the biggest rewards out of the whole deal in the first place. If he doesn't think of himself as a villain, it's only by virtue of the fact that he doesn't think his victims "count" -- essentially, a sociopath. He gets satisfaction out of having imposed "order" on the world because that's just another way in which he carves his own face out of the landscape. Caring never entered into it.

Drolyt

2010-11-17, 12:30 AM

Tarquin may very well believe what he is saying. He doesn't appear to be as card carryingly evil as Xykon or Nale. He even seems genuinely happy that Elan became a good guy rather than end up like Nale. That said, Tarquin's real goal is power. For himself, and maybe for his party and Elan. It may help him sleep better at night if he thinks his ambition will ultimately improve the lot of the common people, and hell, he might not be making that up. Without going into specifics many real world conquerors have improved their subjects' lives, and most of them had debatable motives. Even if Tarquin ends up making the western continent peaceful and prosperous that doesn't mean he's automatically a good guy.

Red XIV

2010-11-17, 02:01 AM

Just a Star Wars reference.

And I doubt Tarquin set up this system of puppet empires in order to prevent needless conflict (It sounds like lots of that happens anyway, it's just Tarquin and Co overthrowing themselves)
Still, their puppet empires' wars are presumably more controlled and have lower death tolls than real, non-orchestrated wars would. After all, Tarquin would want it to be that way, because fewer casualties means his puppet empires have greater military power.

Felhammer

2010-11-17, 02:11 AM

Of course Tarquin cares - in his mind he is bringing about an era of (relative) peace for the thousands upon thousands of sentients who live in Sub-Elven Western Continent. If he did not truly believe he was being the good guy (via evil acts of necessity), Tarquin would never have accepted his son who is a Hero.

paladinofshojo

2010-11-17, 02:41 AM

Nope. It's always been about him. His own greed and megalomania.

That may be true he's milking this conspiracy for his own benefit, but one would wonder why he's against unifying an entire continent together, any megalomaniac, greedy conqueror would jump at the chance. He's perfectly fine with simply indirectly ruling a third of the continent, and his reasons for not trying to unify the land for his own glory are valid, he doesn't want to be attacked by the elves or someone else shows that he is willing to put national security over his own petty desires...As for slavery, well it originated as a somewhat more humane solution on what to do with prisoners of war and conquered peoples instead of just wholesale slaughter and massace. And this region of the Ootsverse is the most politically unstable part of all, from what we can tell the slaves may have been loyalists of the defeated kingdoms who where absorbed into the three empires tarquin and his party made... Just my thoughts:smallsmile:

Korias

2010-11-17, 02:55 AM

Tarquin is basically textbook Lawful Evil.

I'm not so sure. From what I recall, LE is more of using the rules to further yourself without regard to screwing others over. Like using a loophole that gets you out of doing jail time when you killed your wife for sleeping with your party member or something similar.

Tarquin seems more resolutely LN with leanings toward LE, or even towards TN. See, it doesn't appear that he's above using underhanded methods, but is all for not only establishing dynasties but also overthrowing them, for the greater good. Now, while it is linked to the "Get Rich Quick" scheme, that could just be his way of getting support from his party members. It just seems as if people are pegging him as Evil when there may be more too him.

Coidzor

2010-11-17, 03:01 AM

Seraphem

2010-11-17, 03:45 AM

From what we've seen of Tarquin so far, I'm on the side of "For the greater good of the people" simply being something he tells himself/others (and by now probably even half believes) to try and rationalize his actions while really, he just wants power.

Not that he doesn't have a point that given the political situation of that region it would be better in the long run to have three stable, non-warring empires then several dozen smaller ones that are constantly fighting, but even then it's a lesser of two evils situation.

Porthos

2010-11-17, 04:19 AM

Like using a loophole that gets you out of doing jail time when you killed your wife for sleeping with your party member or something similar.

How 'bout torturing women until they agree to marry you?

Tarquin seems more resolutely LN with leanings toward LE, or even towards TN. See, it doesn't appear that he's above using underhanded methods, but is all for not only establishing dynasties but also overthrowing them, for the greater good.

Uh-huh.

Greater good.

Right.

Now call me silly, but do we actually have any, you know, proof that Tarquin is doing this for the "Greater Good"? I mean, with the whole "actions speak louder than words" thing.

All we have is one, maybe two lines where Tarquin (who by the way is knowingly talking to a CG person [and quite probably trying to seduce him]) claims that he is doing this for noble reasons. But he doesn't even start off with that. It's more a throwaway justification.

It just seems as if people are pegging him as Evil when there may be more too him.

Maybe the fact that people are "pegging" him as evil are for the following reasons (non exhaustive):
He sends people to their death when they embarrass him.
He lies to people and betrays (people who have become convinced that they are) allies for personal gain.
He risks the lives of others and then gloats about it when trying to "defuse" a situation.
He (as mentioned above) tortures women until they agree to marry him.
He eventually kills all of his wives.
He was described as Lawful Evil in a court of law :smallwink:.

Seriously, what more do you want? Do you want him to turn to the camera and kick a puppy? :smallbiggrin:

This. Dude. Is. E-Val.

He is, as I said in a previous Discussion Thread, Straight Outta Baator. I mean, I could just see a devil (who was trying to corrupt someone) pointing out that all they want is "Law and Order". Point out how they are doing the universe a favor by destroying Chaos Demons. By pointing out how much better things will be once (their) Order is established.

Does that make them Lawful Neutral? I think not.

Put simply, Tarquin is a rapist, a murderer, a torturer, a betrayer, and a liar. And, oh yes, out for glory and money. And he doesn't care who he has to crush to get those things. It would take an awful lot to move that needle back to Neutral. And a winning smile and a few glib words about how "this is all for your own good" doesn't do it. :smalltongue:

B. Dandelion

2010-11-17, 04:42 AM

That may be true he's milking this conspiracy for his own benefit, but one would wonder why he's against unifying an entire continent together, any megalomaniac, greedy conqueror would jump at the chance.

He's spelled out exactly his reasons for not doing exactly that. It'd just get the elves or someone else to unite against him and topple him from power once more. There's no mystery here that an altruistic motive could shed light on.

He's perfectly fine with simply indirectly ruling a third of the continent, and his reasons for not trying to unify the land for his own glory are valid, he doesn't want to be attacked by the elves or someone else shows that he is willing to put national security over his own petty desires...

He's not putting "national security" ahead of anything. There isn't even a consistent "nation" he's supposedly doing this on behalf of. The only thing that's really "stable" is his own position here atop the heap.

As for slavery, well it originated as a somewhat more humane solution on what to do with prisoners of war and conquered peoples instead of just wholesale slaughter and massace.

And this region of the Ootsverse is the most politically unstable part of all, from what we can tell the slaves may have been loyalists of the defeated kingdoms who where absorbed into the three empires tarquin and his party made... Just my thoughts:smallsmile:

Ironically I wasn't even trying to slam him on the slavery thing but merely saying that his kind of warped logic could be used to rationalize slavery which I would have thought was something most people already understood to be evil.

You're just making stuff up here, creating these false dilemmas (it was slavery or mass genocide, so clearly the lesser of two evils!) and an entire history that runs counter to everything we've already seen. Tarquin, again, openly admitted to increasing the violence level against the Free City of Blood out of total spite. If he were presented with an option of mass genocide or mass slavery, he'd opt for whichever one of those most helped his personal goals. Maybe it would wind up being the slightly less heinous choice, but that's what we call being a pragmatic villain, not a merciful one. But much more to the point, there is absolutely zero evidence anywhere that this is the origin of slavery on the continent.

It's okay that you like him, as a character, personally I find I'm loving to hate him which means he is actually enjoyable in that sense. But there's nothing really to grasp at here with the attempt to find some altruistic bent to his motives, he isn't misguided or anything like that, he's just a total bastard whose motives are in general somewhat understandable: power, as opposed to say, the unique and exquisite suffering of every living being on the planet.

Coidzor

2010-11-17, 05:18 AM

How 'bout torturing women until they agree to marry you?

Nah, that's just bad taste, not LE.

ObadiahtheSlim

2010-11-17, 08:29 AM

He is your classic LE dictator. He rules behind the scenes, uses innuendo and half truths to move through diplomacy. It is never what he says that is the lie, it is always what he doesn't say. He never murders his opponents, he pushes them through a kangaroo court that conveniently convicts them. Slavery and oppression are the name of the game for the common man.

To answer the OPs question, does he care about the people? No, not really. He may rationalize that he is saving lives with his 3 state solution, but he doesn't believe it. He is ruling for his own selfish reasons. He enjoys the wealth and power he has.

Morquard

2010-11-17, 08:40 AM

Don't forget that he pretty much said that he had all the pikemen from the south wall executed (and probably all pikemen, or all people on the southwall, just to make sure), just to "free" the woman he decided will be his next wife.

Or do you really think by saying her marital status wasn't an obstacle anymore in #757 he was having her husband sign divorce papers?

I'm sorry, anyone who says he's not evil is either trolling or has their moral compass so twisted that I hope to never meet them.

Burner28

2010-11-17, 09:06 AM

Why would anyone think that Tarquin isn't lying about his intentions to Elan? it makes way more sense. You guys might be fooled, but I am not.

Tarquin seems more resolutely LN with leanings toward LE, or even towards TN. See, it doesn't appear that he's above using underhanded methods, but is all for not only establishing dynasties but also overthrowing them, for the greater good. Now, while it is linked to the "Get Rich Quick" scheme, that could just be his way of getting support from his party members. It just seems as if people are pegging him as Evil when there may be more too him.

Using evil means to achieve a good end still makes you evil aligned. Even if the remote possibility of Tarquin caring about the people of the western continent is correct, he is still Lawful Evil, definetly not Lawful Neutral

Kaytara

2010-11-17, 11:20 AM

He may be saying that just to get Elan on his side but it does explain why instead of forming one world empire on the Continent he is content with just having three smaller empires "squabbling for power amongst each other for the sake of preventing an attack from a greater enemy".It suggests that he may have some empathy towards his subject's relative safety.

It strikes me as more likely that Tarquin is content with what he has because forming one world empire DID NOT WORK, and is not likely to work in the future, as he has pointed out.

Drolyt

2010-11-17, 11:34 AM

He eventually kills all of his wives.

I agree Tarquin is evil, but this one is only implied. There may be other reasons to cover up his wives' deaths besides "he did it"

Why would anyone think that Tarquin isn't lying about his intentions to Elan? it makes way more sense. You guys might be fooled, but I am not.
Because he doesn't lie about anything else. He isn't even trying to conceal his plan from Elan, and in general has been super nice to Elan.

Using evil means to achieve a good end still makes you evil aligned. Even if the remote possibility of Tarquin caring about the people of the western continent is correct, he is still Lawful Evil, definetly not Lawful Neutral
Deontological vs teleological ethical theories? In the latter, the ends justify the means. Admittedly, D&D does seem to use a (very strange) deontological ethical system, but at least some people would disagree with you here. If by playing his hand in the shadows and secretly uniting the western continent he can bring peace and prosperity then a few evil acts would be justified.
(A note on ends justify the means: in ethics, as opposed to cartoon villains, you have to consider all the ends, not just the final end. Even if you have a good final end it can be outweighed by all the evil ends along the way. It just cannot be outweighed because a particular action is viewed as "evil" by the masses. In particular, some would say Tarquin betraying that woman's call for help, thus preventing a much larger and bloodier battle, might actually have been a good decision.)

Burner28

2010-11-17, 11:46 AM

Deontological vs teleological ethical theories? In the latter, the ends justify the means. Admittedly, D&D does seem to use a (very strange) deontological ethical system, but at least some people would disagree with you here. If by playing his hand in the shadows and secretly uniting the western continent he can bring peace and prosperity then a few evil acts would be justified.
(A note on ends justify the means: in ethics, as opposed to cartoon villains, you have to consider all the ends, not just the final end. Even if you have a good final end it can be outweighed by all the evil ends along the way. It just cannot be outweighed because a particular action is viewed as "evil" by the masses. In particular, some would say Tarquin betraying that woman's call for help, thus preventing a much larger and bloodier battle, might actually have been a good decision.)

This is DnD remember:smallamused: and It still kinda is possible that Tarquin is lying. Remember that he is trying to get Elan support, so.... I wouldn't put it past him. Could you really imagine Tarquin of all characters having noble intentions?

Drolyt

2010-11-17, 01:41 PM

Could you really imagine Tarquin of all characters having noble intentions?
So far... its a bit of toss up. Tarquin and Malack both seem extraordinarily friendly compared to the evil guys we've seen so far. The real turning point for me is the implication that he apparently tortures women to get them to marry him and then kills them when he's done, up until that revelation he fell squarely into affably evil and maybe even noble demon territory. i t waits to be seen how sympathetic he will be made in the end.

Burner28

2010-11-17, 01:45 PM

So far... its a bit of toss up. Tarquin and Malack both seem extraordinarily friendly compared to the evil guys we've seen so far.

Compared to who?Nice has nothing to do with Good at all and Evil characters can be nice. Roy for example is Lawful Good and he isn't nice at all.:smalltongue::smalltongue:

Gnome Alone

2010-11-17, 02:30 PM

Y'know, even if dude is a million percent sincere about wanting to prevent needless bloodshed, screw that. It'd be one thing if that was his only goal, but he even flat out says that they're all going to "rule with an iron fist." So, how is that any better? Give me liberty or give me death and all that.

paladinofshojo

2010-11-17, 02:36 PM

The real turning point for me is the implication that he apparently tortures women to get them to marry him and then kills them when he's done

Well considering the feelings of most of the women he courts, he may have had to kill them in self-defense

Porthos

2010-11-17, 02:40 PM

he may have had to kill them in self-defense

...

I don't think "self-defense" means what you think it means. :smalltongue:

Drolyt

2010-11-17, 02:49 PM

Compared to who?Nice has nothing to do with Good at all and Evil characters can be nice. Roy for example is Lawful Good and he isn't nice at all.:smalltongue::smalltongue:
Compared to Xykon, Nale, the Snarl, the ancient black dragon, Kubota, several others... It is true that nice != good, but you are wrong in saying that they have nothing to do with each other. At the very least Tarquin has enough good in him to rejoice at meeting his long lost son and to devote time towards making him happy. Whether or not Tarquin was just using him has yet to be seen.

Well considering the feelings of most of the women he courts, he may have had to kill them in self-defense

...
I don't think "self-defense" means what you think it means. :smalltongue:
I'm with Porthos on this one. Either way, I did say we have to wait and see how sympathetic a character Tarquin ends up being.

Stmr5000

2010-11-17, 02:56 PM

Why would anyone think that Tarquin isn't lying about his intentions to Elan? it makes way more sense. You guys might be fooled, but I am not.

Simple. Why do you think that he IS lying to Elan? He want's his son on his side, and thinks that he can win him over with the truth. He makes no bones about being a dictator. He's not sugarcoating it. He's being honest.

Burner28

2010-11-17, 02:59 PM

Simple. Why do you think that he IS lying to Elan?

To make himself look sympathetic to his son as part of his plan? From what we seen of Tarquin, there is plenty to suggest that he is selfish and very little to suggest that he cares about the people of the Continent.

hamishspence

2010-11-17, 03:00 PM

Plus- there have been quite a few comments in the main #758 thread on how, when Tarquin's previous statements were checked with respect to the new info- they are still technically consistent with the current story about the takeover of the desert:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9777535&postcount=193

Tarquin's signature trait so far, when it comes to things he says, has been speaking misleading, incomplete truths, rather than outright falsehoods, IMO.

Porthos

2010-11-17, 03:02 PM

Tarquin's signature trait so far, when it comes to things he says, has been speaking misleading, incomplete truths, rather than outright falsehoods, IMO.

Or, for the reasons you mention, never take what Tarquin says at face value. :smallsmile:

Stmr5000

2010-11-17, 03:02 PM

To make himself look sympathetic to his son as part of his plan? From what we seen of Tarquin, there is plenty to suggest that he is selfish and very little to suggest that he cares about the people of the Continent.

Yes, but he's NOT trying to look sympathetic. He's basically saying "Yes, I am a merciless dictator. And you know what? It save lives, and gives me a nice paycheck."

Burner28

2010-11-17, 03:03 PM

Or, more simply, never take what Tarquin says at face value. :smallsmile:

Couldn't have said it better for an LE dictator

Porthos

2010-11-17, 03:04 PM

Yes, but he's NOT trying to look sympathetic. He's basically saying "Yes, I am a merciless dictator. And you know what? It save lives, and gives me a nice paycheck."

Except that whole "saves lives" thing was tacked onto the end only after repeated complaints from Elan. That smaks of justification.

And, no matter how much Evil Dictators might wish it to be, Justification After The Fact != Reason Why You Did Something. :smallwink:

Stmr5000

2010-11-17, 03:10 PM

Except that whole "saves lives" thing was tacked onto the end only after repeated complaints from Elan. That smaks of justification.

And, no matter how much Evil Dictators might wish it to be, Justification After The Fact != Reason Why You Did Something. :smallwink:

Actually, no. He first said "It's for their own good" in 757, before explaining any of this. It was not, in any way, "tacked on".

Porthos

2010-11-17, 03:21 PM

Actually, no. He first said "It's for their own good" in 757, before explaining any of this. It was not, in any way, "tacked on".

I was specifically talking about the speech in #758. But even in #757, when someone accuses someone of something heinous, one of the first things that often comes out of the accused mouth is, "it was for their own good".

...

Let me flip this a bit. Do you really believe that Tarquin is doing this to better the lives of the common folk of the Eastern Continent? I mean, really really? Deep deep down?

Because as I said, the actual evidence is somewhat lacking.

Let's pull a Compare and Contrast. It's pretty obvious that one of the motivations of Redcloak is the betterment of Goblinkind. We've been repeatedly hit over the head about it, actually. Now let's compare Tarquin to Redcloak. Have we seen anything from Tarquin that even approaches Redcloak's attitudes when it comes to this sort of thing?

I think not.
(Start of Darkness Spoilers)
And even Redcloak's motivations are subverted with the realization in Start of Darkness that for all of Redcloak's talk about Equality for Goblinkind, a good portion of it is just a roaring rampage of revenge against everyone else in the world.

So if even Redcloak's motivations aren't as pure as he would like to think, why we would think that Tarquin's is? :smallconfused:
Again, actions speak louder than words. And even if you give weight to words, we only have a couple of lines where he is, yes, trying to justify his behavior to people.

Until I see some signs that he actually gives a darn about people in general, I won't believe a word he says about wanting to do all of this for the "greater good".

hamishspence

2010-11-17, 03:23 PM

Until I see some signs that he actually gives a darn about people in general, I won't believe a word he says about wanting to do all of this for the "greater good".

Now if we saw him sacrificing something he values greatly, "for the good of the people" that would be different.

Stmr5000

2010-11-17, 03:25 PM

Well, your original point was that he was lying to Elan. My point is that perhaps he wasn't. Even if he does tack on the greater good schtick, the fact of the matter is that he isn't claiming to be anything other than an iron fisted dictator, ruling incognito. As to a motivation, power is clearly the motivation. Not has he denied it. Hence, he is telling the truth.

Porthos

2010-11-17, 03:33 PM

Well, your original point was that he was lying to Elan.

Actually my point is that he isn't being completely honest with Elan. If one wants to expand a bit on that point, I think he is trying to manipulate Elan for some end and will use whatever justification he can to do so.

And if that means twist what he is doing into the best possible light, so be it.

But the central question of this thread is: Does Tarquin really care about the people of the Western Continent?

And my answer is: Not really.

Oh sure, if as a result of his plans, the people of the Western Continent have a better life, well good. And if he can use that as Positive PR, so much the better. But if his plans for himself and his friends resulted in a worse off life for people in general, I don't think he would even blink an eye.

That's just the type of guy I think Tarquin is.

Stmr5000

2010-11-17, 03:46 PM

And in that, we are in agreement.

SinsI

2010-11-17, 05:10 PM

I wonder what he wants to conquer next. In medieval countries food was the thing that ultimately caused all the wars, because they needed to kill off extra mouths. Those extra "tens of thousands of people" are going to rebel really quick, unless Tarquin manages to kill them off in gladiator pits or something...

Stmr5000

2010-11-17, 05:28 PM

Hydro

2010-11-17, 05:49 PM

He runs a country where murder is the national pastime.

I do not believe for a second that Tarquin values peace over power. He is just noting, as a matter of fact, that his ends achieve both.

veti

2010-11-17, 06:09 PM

Now if we saw him sacrificing something he values greatly, "for the good of the people" that would be different.

What does he "value greatly"? We don't really know. Possibly he values Elan, but if Elan obviously turns against him, I doubt Tarquin would lose much sleep over sending him to the arena or worse. After all, we've seen his usual attitude to family feeling.

Other than that: does he value Malack? His other party members? His own comfortable position? The "peace" of the Western Continent? Until we see him forced to choose between some of these things, we can only guess.

(My guess would be, he values his own power, and everything else in exact proportion to how it increases his power. So people, including Malack and Elan, would be valued in proportion to how much he trusts them.)

Welf

2010-11-17, 06:57 PM

Again, actions speak louder than words. And even if you give weight to words, we only have a couple of lines where he is, yes, trying to justify his behavior to people.

His actions would actually paint Tarquin as a good/neutral man. He did invade the Free City of Doom, but that's something that would have happened anyway within a few years. And then again, and again and again. Instead there will be one invasion and then at least a generation of stability and peace. War is expensive, and a continent that has seen hundreds of years of warfare doesn't have any spare resources for conquerors to use. Thus the only way to pay your soldiers is to let them rob the land. It's nice to value liberty over safety, but you probably start thinking different when you live in constant fear that a mob of hungry mercenaries kill your family and rob all your possessions. Probably every successful takeover and the following pillaging produce the hungry mouths that are ready to join the next aspiring warlords army.

Which doesn't mean that Tarquin isn't evil. He did take care that the officers husband would be killed to get her. And with that kind of behaviour I doubt that he cares for the people of the continent. It's just that his rationalization actually is true; he does improve people's lives.

Drolyt

2010-11-17, 07:39 PM

Which doesn't mean that Tarquin isn't evil. He did take care that the officers husband would be killed to get her. And with that kind of behaviour I doubt that he cares for the people of the continent. It's just that his rationalization actually is true; he does improve people's lives.
This; as we've seen in the past, OotS has more complicated characters when it comes to morality than many people like to deal with. Tarquin may be evil, but still cares enough about people that he has to justify his actions this way. Then, as long as he can convince himself that he is actually making things better he feels free to do whatever he wants.

Zak3056

2010-11-17, 08:01 PM

He may be saying that just to get Elan on his side but it does explain why instead of forming one world empire on the Continent he is content with just having three smaller empires "squabbling for power amongst each other for the sake of preventing an attack from a greater enemy".
Or, three empires "squabbling for power" could simply be an instance of "Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia."

Damaris

2010-11-18, 08:41 AM

Frankly, if he cared for the people and thought he should fix their problems whether they want him to or not, he could have brought them peace *without* installing a repressive government with slavery and Death Squads and people being sent to the arena for not having papers. He chose not to. So really, maybe it does make him happy that his rule means less death, but I don't think he would care in the least if that wasn't the case.

SaintRidley

2010-11-18, 08:51 AM

I don't think he cares all that much and that any benefits they reap from his machinations are probably a minor side effect that he figures will probably be good PR later on, so he'll make use of it so long as it continues.

Benefiting the people of the continent is probably both unintended and not really all that important to him. He's smart enough to notice it happening, though, and he'll milk it for everything he can. Say, for example, to make himself look good to a visitor of importance like his son.

Orzel

2010-11-18, 05:38 PM

I think saving lives just an added bonus.

Belkar could save hundred of lives by killing evil people who happen to piss him off. But he wouldn't be doing it to save lives but to kill guys who annoy him.

Tarquin's plan is just a safe retirement plan. All the power you can grab without some wizard angry at you. Tarqain probably see adventuring as a losers game. Adventurers tend to die before they get to retire with oodles of riches and power. So he and his friends take the easy way out, nation-building. And if their plan prevents a few big wars, that's just a cool bonus, man.