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Half-orc Bard
2010-11-16, 07:14 PM
I hear about nice kobold thing, but I can't find any. What are they and what books are they in?

AslanCross
2010-11-16, 07:16 PM
Races of the Dragon has a huge amount of Kobold fluff and crunch. Dragonwrought Kobold is from there, along with a number of feats, grafts, items and prestige classes.

Ernir
2010-11-16, 07:20 PM
Races of the Dragon and its web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) (also here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060127a), although with lesser goodies)

JaronK
2010-11-16, 07:27 PM
The big ones are mentioned above, but note a hidden benefit of Dragonwrought: according to the beginning of the Kobold section in that book, any Kobold with that feat suffers no penalties for old age. This means venerable ones get +3 to all mental stats as a bonus of that feat.

It's debated by some, but Dragonwrought seems to make a Kobold into a True Dragon (the definition given in Dragons of Kyrnn and Dragon Magic is any dragon with 12 age categories, and this matches the Draconomicon definition as well). This gives Kobolds access to Sovereign Archetypes in Dragons of Eberron, which are a series of powerful abilities intended to make True Dragons more powerful as player characters. This would be a sensible move (their LA is too high for them to be any good normally) but is quite nasty on the 0LA Kobolds... one can only assume the writers of Dragons of Eberron didn't realize Races of the Dragon had given Kobolds that status.

End result: It's quite possible to get +3 Sorcerer levels on any Kobold (+1 from Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, +2 from Loredrake) which is extremely potent. You could also get a free bonus feat every four levels from the Fighter list (Wyrm of War, and you can get a few other feats too). Basically, this makes Kobolds the single strongest 0LA race for most builds, though it does cost you one or two feats (Dragonwrought, and possibly Draconic Reservoir).

JaronK

mootoall
2010-11-16, 07:27 PM
Also, though I don't have a link, Tucker's Kobolds. Oh, god, Tucker's Kobolds ...

kyoryu
2010-11-16, 07:28 PM
Also, though I don't have a link, Tucker's Kobolds. Oh, god, Tucker's Kobolds ...

It's a very difficult link to find.

http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/

SurlySeraph
2010-11-16, 07:53 PM
Plus the alternative racial features presented in the web enhancement make Kobold great for Rogues, almost as good as Whisper Gnomes. Small + Slight Build means +2 on attacks and AC, and +8 to Hide. Three natural attacks means... three attacks, getting Sneak Attack on each.
And later, said attacks can be used to get quite powerful melee abilities, like Rapidstrike or the Soul Eater PrC.

true_shinken
2010-11-16, 08:53 PM
This would be a sensible move (their LA is too high for them to be any good normally) but is quite nasty on the 0LA Kobolds... one can only assume the writers of Dragons of Eberron didn't realize Races of the Dragon had given Kobolds that status.
Actually, steel dragon wyrmling is a very good 6th level character. With 4d12 hd, +4bab, 1st level sorcerer casting and alternate form (read: better wildshape) they are nowhere bad. If you add a sovereign archetype... they become awesome.

JaronK
2010-11-16, 09:25 PM
6th level characters with first level Sorcerer casting hardly counts as a decent caster. 4 BAB isn't too hot for that level as a melee type either. And they have virtually no other class features despite 6 ECL. Compare that even to an Orc Barbarian 4/Fighter 2 (more class features, more BAB, more HP, etc) and you can see the problem. Putting a Sovereign Archetype on such a creature just optimizes them, as opposed to being over the top.

But on a Kobold? It's nuts.

JaronK

true_shinken
2010-11-16, 09:28 PM
And they have virtually no other class features despite 6 ECL.
Alternate form. Any humanoid or animal form. No HD limit.
Legendary ape at 6th level? Yes, please.

JaronK
2010-11-16, 09:49 PM
Yeah, okay, that one's pretty silly.

JaronK

Coidzor
2010-11-16, 09:59 PM
Actually, steel dragon wyrmling is a very good 6th level character. With 4d12 hd, +4bab, 1st level sorcerer casting and alternate form (read: better wildshape) they are nowhere bad. If you add a sovereign archetype... they become awesome.

What's the source on steel dragons? Dragons of Faerun, right?

true_shinken
2010-11-16, 10:20 PM
What's the source on steel dragons? Dragons of Faerun, right?

Exactly. 4 racial hit dice, LA+2.

grarrrg
2010-11-16, 10:30 PM
It's a very difficult link to find.

http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/

Let's say this Twinkie represents the normal amount of sarcastic-etic energy in the kyoryu-post area. According to this evening's post, it would be a Twinkie thirty-five feet long, weighing approximately six hundred pounds.

Lev
2010-11-16, 11:12 PM
Let's say this Twinkie represents the normal amount of sarcastic-etic energy in the kyoryu-post area. According to this evening's post, it would be a Twinkie thirty-five feet long, weighing approximately six hundred pounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V13CZnUCOaQ
:smallbiggrin:

kyoryu
2010-11-17, 12:37 AM
Let's say this Twinkie represents the normal amount of sarcastic-etic energy in the kyoryu-post area. According to this evening's post, it would be a Twinkie thirty-five feet long, weighing approximately six hundred pounds.

That's a big Twinkie.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-17, 09:55 AM
Alternate form. Any humanoid or animal form. No HD limit.
Legendary ape at 6th level? Yes, please.

I'm pretty sure Legendary is a template, and you can't assume a form with a template with Alternate Form. Still a nice ability, but not THAT good.

The MMII doesn't really make it clear, but the Legendary template can be found here. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Legendary_Template_%283.5e_Template%29)

hamishspence
2010-11-17, 10:00 AM
In MM2, it's not written as a template.

There's a Dire template in 3rd party (Tome of Horrors)- this does not mean that ordinary Dire Creatures are templated.

D&D Wiki is 3rd party- and I'm pretty sure the template doesn't perfectly match up with all existing Legendary creatures anyway.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-17, 10:06 AM
In MM2, it's not written as a template.

There's a Dire template in 3rd party (Tome of Horrors)- this does not mean that ordinary Dire Creatures are templated.

D&D Wiki is 3rd party- and I'm pretty sure the template doesn't perfectly match up with all existing Legendary creatures anyway.

meh, not like it's a big deal anyway. i could have sworn i'd seen it somewhere else in a sourcebook too but i can't find it right now.

edit: ah...yes, i was confused. Was thinking of the "Monster of Legend" template rather than the "Legenary animal" thing. Do they really have to make things so similar?

Greenish
2010-11-17, 10:20 AM
Plus the alternative racial features presented in the web enhancement make Kobold great for Rogues, almost as good as Whisper Gnomes. Small + Slight Build means +2 on attacks and AC, and +8 to Hide.Attack roll or AC aren't opposed checks, so Slight Build does nothing for them.

HunterOfJello
2010-11-17, 10:24 AM
Desert Kobold (for the best stats) + Dragonwrought Kobold Feat + Loredrake dragon type + web enhancements for Kobolds + ritual feat

with optional Dragonborn ritual

= one very powerful little spellcaster

with

-4 Str
+2 Dex
+3 Int
+1 Wis
+3 Cha

+3 levels of sorcerer for spellcasting purposes

3/day casting of a chosen 1st level spell

and lots of small reptile shenanigans

hamishspence
2010-11-17, 10:47 AM
edit: ah...yes, i was confused. Was thinking of the "Monster of Legend" template rather than the "Legenary animal" thing. Do they really have to make things so similar?

There was a thread a while back devoted to commenting on things with the same name, that are different, in D&D.

Beguiler as a mouselike magical beast, in Shining South, but a player class in PHB2, was one of them.

Person_Man
2010-11-17, 02:49 PM
By default all Kobolds are dragonblooded. This gives you access to a variety of spells, soulmelds, and feats without having to spend a feat. They also have a natural armor bonus, which is required for a small number of feats and prestige classes.

A down side of playing a Kobold is that in most campaign worlds, Kobolds face a LOT of racism. I played one in a standard heroic campaign, and it was a huge issue. I personally loved the roleplaying challenge. But if you just want to be able to have a normal conversation with the Town Guard without being accused of something, then you should look elsewhere.

Esser-Z
2010-11-17, 04:37 PM
End result: It's quite possible to get +3 Sorcerer levels on any Kobold (+1 from Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, +2 from Loredrake) which is extremely potent. You could also get a free bonus feat every four levels from the Fighter list (Wyrm of War, and you can get a few other feats too). Basically, this makes Kobolds the single strongest 0LA race for most builds, though it does cost you one or two feats (Dragonwrought, and possibly Draconic Reservoir).

JaronK

...Or, y'know, the ability to cast the cleric or druid spell list as arcane spells. That has to be worth something.

Coidzor
2010-11-17, 04:43 PM
What's that, Esser-Z?

Esser-Z
2010-11-17, 04:47 PM
Some of the sovereign archetypes grant the ability to cast cleric (and one, druid) spells, including some domain spells, as arcane spells. There has to be something that can be done with this. Though not as much as the other way around (hi DMM!), I'd imagine.

HunterOfJello
2010-11-17, 04:51 PM
What's that, Esser-Z?

Those are some of the options you can get from having a Sovereign Archetype as a dragon. If you are a Dragonwrought Kobold then you are a dragon and can have one of the archetypes at pretty much 0 cost.

They're featured in Dragons of Eberron. Lore Drake gives +2 Sorcerer casting level. One allows you to select spells off of the Druid list (in addition to the Sorcerer list). Several different ones allow access to different cleric domain lists for spells. A war focused one gives martial weapon proficiency, armor proficiencies, and a fighter bonus feat every 4 levels. There's also one that improves your ability to create magical items.

I don't have the book on me, but those are just the ones that I can remember.

SurlySeraph
2010-11-17, 04:54 PM
Attack roll or AC aren't opposed checks, so Slight Build does nothing for them.

Thanks for the correction.

JaronK
2010-11-17, 06:26 PM
...Or, y'know, the ability to cast the cleric or druid spell list as arcane spells. That has to be worth something.

It says a lot about Kobolds that I totally blanked on that part. But yeah, a Kobold Warmage with one of those archetypes is NASTY. Hi, I'm a Tier 1 Warmage! Works well with Dread Necromancer too. Not that Beguilers are bad at it.

JaronK

Esser-Z
2010-11-17, 08:02 PM
Those are some of the options you can get from having a Sovereign Archetype as a dragon. If you are a Dragonwrought Kobold then you are a dragon and can have one of the archetypes at pretty much 0 cost.

They're featured in Dragons of Eberron. Lore Drake gives +2 Sorcerer casting level. One allows you to select spells off of the Druid list (in addition to the Sorcerer list). Several different ones allow access to different cleric domain lists for spells. A war focused one gives martial weapon proficiency, armor proficiencies, and a fighter bonus feat every 4 levels. There's also one that improves your ability to create magical items.

I don't have the book on me, but those are just the ones that I can remember.
Not just the domain list. Every single one that gives domains also gives the main cleric list.