PDA

View Full Version : Tier 1 Caster Slaying: Part Deux!



Nanoblack
2010-11-17, 01:21 AM
I've been going over the previous "How to slay a tier one caster without being one" thread and found all of the arguments (Well... most of them) compelling. Now that I am deeply interested in the subject, one thing that I believe was mentioned once and is the sole reason for me creating this thread:

Too many things were based off of an imagined character sheet! Every turn in the argument was "oh but he could do this" or "well he has such and such contingency". I challenge this forums best optimizers to build this uber paranoid wizard so that we can finally put an end to this argument.

EDIT: Here's the rules as presented from the last thread.



1. Despite my original post, this thread has, for the most part, been about the killing of a theoretical level 20 Wizard.
2. As such the DM is not a valid way of reasoning out of broken spells.
3. It is assumed by the majority of this fine community that, a very intelligent level 20 Wizard will take the best advantage out of his spells and protect himself to the best of his ability.
4. The following effects are assumed based on point 3:
4.1. The Wizard's real body is sitting home at his private demiplane, created via Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm).
4.2. The Wizard will usually be using Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm). If the silver cord is serverd he has Clones waiting around, or contingent Ressurections etc. So this point is moot.
4.3 Assuming we can somehow get the Wizard to step out of his home in physical form, he has taken further precautions. Those are:
4.3.1. He has cast Foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm), either extended via rod, or persisted via the Incantatrix class ability. This means he is never flatfooted.
4.3.2. He has memorized Celerity, or Greater Celerity (PHBII) which lets him act when imitative is rolled. Hence the Wizard always goes first.
4.3.3. He will cast Contact Other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) to be even better prepared. See the vast discussion about the spell's effectiveness above.
4.3.4 He will be flying around, by virtue of his Phantom Steed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm), or will simply Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm) to his destination. This eliminates anyone walking up behind him as he is strolling trough the park. We are not talking about Gandalif and his walking stick here.
4.3.5. Whenever he has to rest out of the comfort of his Demiplane, he will not do so at an inn, or eat foot prepared by level 1 Commoners. He has a Magnificent Mansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm) at his disposal to cover for those needs. So stabbing him while he is sleeping is also quite hard to pull off.
4.5.6. Even if you are somehow able to get to him, and past Foresight + Celerity, he has Contingency and Crafted Contingencies so he can safely get away from you.


Things that have been proposed, and are remotely viable are:

Using 10 levels of Silver Key to enter his Demiplane and MMM spell.
Using Black Dog to somehow poison him.
Going action Nova in round 0 and splattering him with physical attacks.

Those however, while overcoming some of the Wizard's advantages, can't really cope with everything he's got.

Using this information from the last thread, an keeping in with this level of optimization (so no Pun-Pun level of brokenness)

A Wizard who has alotted a total of 190,000xp for those who missed it...

The total amount of xp the wizard possesses is designated to prevent XP abuse.

Eloel
2010-11-17, 01:36 AM
Building the wizard is easy, selecting spells is the harder part, and is done by seeing the future. So, you'll need to give answers to a bajillion Contact Other Plane (or similar) questions before anyone can reliably select all spells.

Nanoblack
2010-11-17, 01:44 AM
The important part of having it down on paper is so we know what spell slots have been consumed for what contingency. If the wizard can't feasibly perform this every day then it shouldn't be a part of this discussion.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-11-17, 01:51 AM
Too many things were based off of an imagined character sheet! Every turn in the argument was "oh but he could do this" or "well he has such and such contingency". I challenge this forums best optimizers to build this uber paranoid wizard so that we can finally put an end to this argument.

What level of cheese is acceptable? Is Planar Binding on the table? Gate chaining/abuse?

Psyren
2010-11-17, 02:00 AM
I challenge this forums best optimizers to build this uber paranoid wizard so that we can finally put an end to this argument.

End an argument? On the internet?

Tvtyrant
2010-11-17, 02:16 AM
End an argument? On the internet?

BTW, Psyren. You are my favorite :P

The Shadowmind
2010-11-17, 02:19 AM
But we can't stop arguing:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png
xkcd 386

JaronK
2010-11-17, 02:24 AM
You only need to cast Contact Other Plain once if you ask the right question (it involves using a handy property of the powers of two, such that the question you ask ends up being answered with a single number, but answers as many yes/no questions as you like).

We need to know the level, though. Otherwise, how can we build it?

JaronK

Nanoblack
2010-11-17, 02:30 AM
1. Despite my original post, this thread has, for the most part, been about the killing of a theoretical level 20 Wizard.
2. As such the DM is not a valid way of reasoning out of broken spells.
3. It is assumed by the majority of this fine community that, a very intelligent level 20 Wizard will take the best advantage out of his spells and protect himself to the best of his ability.
4. The following effects are assumed based on point 3:
4.1. The Wizard's real body is sitting home at his private demiplane, created via Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm).
4.2. The Wizard will usually be using Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm). If the silver cord is serverd he has Clones waiting around, or contingent Ressurections etc. So this point is moot.
4.3 Assuming we can somehow get the Wizard to step out of his home in physical form, he has taken further precautions. Those are:
4.3.1. He has cast Foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm), either extended via rod, or persisted via the Incantatrix class ability. This means he is never flatfooted.
4.3.2. He has memorized Celerity, or Greater Celerity (PHBII) which lets him act when imitative is rolled. Hence the Wizard always goes first.
4.3.3. He will cast Contact Other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) to be even better prepared. See the vast discussion about the spell's effectiveness above.
4.3.4 He will be flying around, by virtue of his Phantom Steed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm), or will simply Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm) to his destination. This eliminates anyone walking up behind him as he is strolling trough the park. We are not talking about Gandalif and his walking stick here.
4.3.5. Whenever he has to rest out of the comfort of his Demiplane, he will not do so at an inn, or eat foot prepared by level 1 Commoners. He has a Magnificent Mansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm) at his disposal to cover for those needs. So stabbing him while he is sleeping is also quite hard to pull off.
4.5.6. Even if you are somehow able to get to him, and past Foresight + Celerity, he has Contingency and Crafted Contingencies so he can safely get away from you.


Things that have been proposed, and are remotely viable are:

Using 10 levels of Silver Key to enter his Demiplane and MMM spell.
Using Black Dog to somehow poison him.
Going action Nova in round 0 and splattering him with physical attacks.

Those however, while overcoming some of the Wizard's advantages, can't really cope with everything he's got.

Using this information from the last thread, an keeping in with this level of optimization (so no Pun-Pun level of brokenness)

Level 20 Tier 1 Caster for those who missed it...

Fishy
2010-11-17, 02:59 AM
You only need to cast Contact Other Plain once if you ask the right question (it involves using a handy property of the powers of two, such that the question you ask ends up being answered with a single number, but answers as many yes/no questions as you like).

If you're using binary math with Contact Other Plane, I'm using Alan Turing's Halting Paradox for Oracle Machines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_machine#Oracles_and_halting_problems). If you ask the right question and hook it up to a Contingency, you can create an attack that mathematically can't be predicted by the gods themselves.

Godskook
2010-11-17, 03:12 AM
Ok, to start off the series of RAW possible abilities that may or may not be allowed in this challenge at an extreme end:

Is epic spellcasting allowed?
---Yes, I can build a caster with it. Yes, he's capable of getting by level 20.


If you're using binary math with Contact Other Plane, I'm using Alan Turing's Halting Paradox for Oracle Machines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_machine#Oracles_and_halting_problems). If you ask the right question and hook it up to a Contingency, you can create an attack that mathematically can't be predicted by the gods themselves.

Problem is, the gods don't necessarily use mathematical prediction in their prophetic wisdom. They could just *know*.

Nanoblack
2010-11-17, 03:21 AM
For the sake of the argument I'll say no.

Godskook
2010-11-17, 03:25 AM
For the sake of the argument I'll say no.

Ok, now can you start a list of all the RAW-verse stuff you're not allowing? Or at least a gist of it? It'll make building this wizard easier if we know how many hands we have to tie behind his back up front.

Killer Angel
2010-11-17, 04:29 AM
Here's the rules as presented from the last thread.

(snip)

Level 20 Tier 1 Caster for those who missed it...

Why (even in the thread's title) are we still talking 'bout 20 tier 1 caster, when it's evident we're discussing lev. 20 Wizard?
I don't see any plan to defeat a lev. 20 Druid...

JaronK
2010-11-17, 04:31 AM
Obviously the easiest method here is going to be any Wizard (or Archivist, actually, or even Sorcerer) who can cast Genesis simply doing so. Since you can set the planar traits to be whatever you can visualize, make it Flowing Time 1,000,000,000, Timeless, and any other traits of your choice (the rest mostly don't matter much, though ripping off the Ysgard trait that True Resurrects you every time you die in battle might be nice). Now you get 1 billion actions before anyone can do anything. This means you can battle by opening up a Gate near the target, attacking with every spell can cast within the Gate's time limit (which should kill darn near anything), and repeat until you're out of spells. Now rest for the night and repeat, memorizing new spells as needed. You can do this countless times before the enemy even gets a round to respond.

This is basically a perfect offense, and only a single spell was needed to make you basically unstoppable. Defensively, you can secure your plane so it's almost impossible to enter, using a variety of spells that make it virtually impossible to even enter the plane (and then you might as well set up traps for anyone entering). Forbiddence is a solid choice, though it's a Cleric spell... so Gate in a Solar to cast it for you. Now no one can ever enter your plane. Why bother with personal defenses when you can simply be too far from anyone to target? Now you send Astrally made copies of yourself to do the adventuring if you so desire, with your astral self retreating to your real body when you want to go into hyper kill mode... you've got a nice backup at home base (that respawns, as far as normal time is concerned, instantly if you die in battle).

JaronK

Hida Reju
2010-11-17, 05:56 AM
And this thread explains why Theoretical optimization for 3.5 wizards is a headache no one should try to replicate a max power Wizard with all of the fixins.

All of this can be summed up like so.

WOTC did not read every book prior to printing a new one and has a lot of material that when pasted together creates force multipliers that are near infinite in power.

Any discussion without limiting the wizard is impossible to overcome due to power lvl being impossible to gauge.

If you put limits on the wizard then its no longer RAW therefore outside of the realm of discussion usually.

Now the question that has to be ignored is why the wizard would take these steps to protect himself. You just have to assume that they are on guard for everything at all times.

Bayar
2010-11-17, 06:42 AM
Now the question that has to be ignored is why the wizard would take these steps to protect himself. You just have to assume that they are on guard for everything at all times.

This is the wizard's brain:

Left hemisphere: It's them man ! They want your brain to see why you are so smart and can cast all those spells ! You need to hide, yes. Hide well so no one can find you. They will find you so you need to kill them. Yes. Kill them all without getting killed. And if you get killed, try to return to life before they take your brain. Don't let them take your brain !

Right hemisphere: You should listen to Friend Innevitable and have fun in your very own Alpha Complex.

Myth
2010-11-17, 08:48 AM
Hey I was quoted :smallsmile:

I'd say that practical optimization is allowed for both sides.

Taking Incantatrix and Dweomerkeepr is ok, using Beholder Slayer's CL255 build is not. Wish looping, PAO racial change, not allowed.

I WAS going to build a level 20 Abrupt Jaunt Conjurer / Master Conjurer / Incantatrix / Archmage/ Iot7V with an "every day" spell list and defenses, but I got sidetracked and forgot.

I remember there being a challenger also, but last time the thread specified killing the Tier 1 (in this case, the Wizard) without using a Tier 1 class.

There are some finer aspects though, like the Foresight argument, the COP argument, how much XP do we get to spend per encounter etc.

Psyren
2010-11-17, 08:51 AM
BTW, Psyren. You are my favorite :P

I just barely made my will save vs. sigging :smalltongue:


*snip*

JaronK

*Insert inevitable modification of guidelines to try and hose this particular strategy*

Trouvere
2010-11-17, 09:11 AM
I don't care what anyone says... if you've got to the point where a wizard is spending his entire life alone in extradimensional spaces in the form of a dire tortoise, just in case, you've already won.

Gametime
2010-11-17, 09:59 AM
Astral Projection is a wonderful way to see the sights and sounds of other planes, if you should ever feel the need.

Considering Gate makes it possible for the wizard to kill any number of important figures and generally wreak havoc on the world, I don't think you can really claim to have won just because he never goes to a puppet show or something.

jseah
2010-11-17, 10:06 AM
Here's a link to the BG boards that I linked to last time.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3821.0

There's a few examples of 'T1 Wizard' in there, coming in varying flavours of CO.
Might have to click on a few links on the 1st post to get the builds and strategies though.

Builds on that one aren't comprehensive. Especially since they do things like 'Prepares spells according to COP answers'.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-17, 10:19 AM
Obviously the easiest method here is going to be any Wizard (or Archivist, actually, or even Sorcerer) who can cast Genesis simply doing so. Since you can set the planar traits to be whatever you can visualize, make it Flowing Time 1,000,000,000, Timeless, and any other traits of your choice (the rest mostly don't matter much, though ripping off the Ysgard trait that True Resurrects you every time you die in battle might be nice). Now you get 1 billion actions before anyone can do anything. This means you can battle by opening up a Gate near the target, attacking with every spell can cast within the Gate's time limit (which should kill darn near anything), and repeat until you're out of spells. Now rest for the night and repeat, memorizing new spells as needed. You can do this countless times before the enemy even gets a round to respond.

This is basically a perfect offense, and only a single spell was needed to make you basically unstoppable. Defensively, you can secure your plane so it's almost impossible to enter, using a variety of spells that make it virtually impossible to even enter the plane (and then you might as well set up traps for anyone entering). Forbiddence is a solid choice, though it's a Cleric spell... so Gate in a Solar to cast it for you. Now no one can ever enter your plane. Why bother with personal defenses when you can simply be too far from anyone to target? Now you send Astrally made copies of yourself to do the adventuring if you so desire, with your astral self retreating to your real body when you want to go into hyper kill mode... you've got a nice backup at home base (that respawns, as far as normal time is concerned, instantly if you die in battle).

JaronK

Don't forget the clones...*just in case*...since there are some ways to kill (I think) that make it impossible to be resurrected.

Invelios
2010-11-17, 10:20 AM
Was the point to build an optimized tier 1 or to defeat one?

I mean using manual of the plains and complete arcane, along with core you could get a build they might actually annoy the wizard at least.

With some combo of Rogue (scout/acf ranger/factotum)/Gate crasher/mage slayer.

Psyren
2010-11-17, 10:27 AM
I don't care what anyone says... if you've got to the point where a wizard is spending his entire life alone in extradimensional spaces in the form of a dire tortoise, just in case, you've already won.

Right, like any deity.

Chess435
2010-11-17, 01:30 PM
To stop cloning/Res, you'll need a way to soul trap him. The trigger object method sounds promising, especially when combined with sympathy and the concealing of magic auras. Probably the best way to do this is to use contact other plane/greater scrying to find out the wizard's whereabouts, pose as a merchant wherever the wizard ends up going, (mundane disguises aren't foiled by true seeing) and offer to buy magic items at ridiculous prices. If you attract the wizard's attention, do business as normal, but include a specially prepared gold piece as the trigger object on top of the sack. That just might do the trick.

Realms of Chaos
2010-11-17, 01:40 PM
Hmmm, if we want to derive a spell list and only use practical optimization (no infinite loops), a couple of questions should probably be answered.
1) What are we considering to be the maximum caster level accessible to the caster? 30? 50? 100? 200?
2) What is the highest that we are assuming that the target could boost their primary ability score for long enough to benefit from bonus spell slots? By extension, answering this will help us get a ball-park estimate of the caster's spell DCs? Again, does 50 seem high enough here? I've seen builds that can get very very very high but I'm not sure if they rely on "practical optimization".

Z3ro
2010-11-17, 01:52 PM
Just a quick question:

Alot of people are mentioning that the wizard in in his demi-plane, astrally projecting to protect his physical body. But you can't do that by strict RAW -

astral projection
You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation.

So is this a big problem, or are people just bending RAW a little?

Nanoblack
2010-11-17, 02:04 PM
Was the point to build an optimized tier 1 or to defeat one?

I mean using manual of the plains and complete arcane, along with core you could get a build they might actually annoy the wizard at least.

With some combo of Rogue (scout/acf ranger/factotum)/Gate crasher/mage slayer.

The point was to build a tier 1 wizard the way any sufficiently paranoid player would. I want to see how many of these alleged uber-safeguards the wizard is capable of keeping up at all times. This way when a build to defeat him is presented, there can't be anyone to chime in and say "oh well any paranoid wizard would have this spell prepared just in case". I want to see items, spells, and feats that this character would have on an average day of his eternal toil in paranoia.

Psyren
2010-11-17, 02:07 PM
So is this a big problem, or are people just bending RAW a little?

Manual of the Planes specifies that Astral Projection leaves your body on the source plane and projects your Astral form to the Astral Plane - pg. 46.

Chen
2010-11-17, 02:12 PM
Manual of the Planes specifies that Astral Projection leaves your body on the source plane and projects your Astral form to the Astral Plane - pg. 46.

Isn't that 3.0 material and thus superceded by the definition in the 3.5 PHB?

Z3ro
2010-11-17, 02:13 PM
Manual of the Planes specifies that Astral Projection leaves your body on the source plane and projects your Astral form to the Astral Plane - pg. 46.

Okay, thanks. Not a book I have, explains that.

Emmerask
2010-11-17, 02:14 PM
Isn't that 3.0 material and thus superceded by the definition in the 3.5 PHB?

Yep it is srd/phb supersedes any enhancements the spell might have gotten in mop by raw

Psyren
2010-11-17, 02:22 PM
Isn't that 3.0 material and thus superceded by the definition in the 3.5 PHB?

Except it wasn't. Planar Handbook (3.5.) specifically instructs players and DMs to reference MotP for planar adventures. MotP is thus grandfathered into 3.5. without needing an explicit update.

JonestheSpy
2010-11-17, 05:14 PM
I wonder how long it takes for that demiplane to run out of oxygen? No plant life to turn that carbon dioxide into something breathable, y'know.
Waiting for someone to point out that nothing in the rules says you need oxygen to breathe...

On a more serious note, I rather wonder how this would work out if one said this was about a caster who's earned 190,000 xp, instead of simply '20th level'. So many of these assumptions about wizards that people insist on include significant expenditures of xp, so it seems to weight things very heavily in the caster's favor to say they get all that stuff AND are still 20th level.

Nanoblack
2010-11-17, 05:17 PM
I think that's fair... I'll try to edit that in.

JaronK
2010-11-17, 06:15 PM
Nothing stops the Wizard from becoming undead if he so desires, but since Planar Traits are basically unlimited with genesis, you can just have the air stay nice and fresh. Or put a Chamber of Comfort in (Stronghold Builder's Guide). No worries.

And yeah, the Wizard's not trapped forever in his plane, as he has spells that let him effectively wander out (like Astral Projection) without risking his physical body. Nor does this cost much Exp: 5k for the Genesis, and you're done. If you want a bigger home plane you could spend more Exp I suppose, or just use that rediculous Exp save point item so you can make your plane as big as you want.

JaronK

Psyren
2010-11-17, 06:19 PM
I wonder how long it takes for that demiplane to run out of oxygen? No plant life to turn that carbon dioxide into something breathable, y'know.
Waiting for someone to point out that nothing in the rules says you need oxygen to breathe...

Trivial - sit next to a bottle of air. Or PAO into a Warforged/Solar etc.

Chess435
2010-11-17, 06:42 PM
Question: Does Trap the soul work on the Wizard if he's using Astral Projection? I would think that it does, but that's just me.

JaronK
2010-11-17, 07:00 PM
It might, so that's a thing to guard against. Also, because Astral Projection costs money, I'd imagine a good starting build would be a Dwarf Wizard 15/Runesmith 5. That means you can have True Creation as a spell like ability thus granting you the ability to cast it without exp costs and thus generate as many material components as you might ever need. Though with that said, a Shadowcraft Mage can cast Shadow Genesis, making even that spell free... but you'd need to be a gnome for that. Either way, you won't be paying much.

I'd also imagine that when journeying around it would be best to have some assistants. If we stick with the Runesmith idea, we can get Animate Dread Warrior as a spell like as well (going undead and getting the Spell Stiched template also works). That means you can spend a bit of time (less than a second really, using the Gate tactics in the previous Genesis strategy post) going to graveyards of various humanoid heroes (or killing powerful humanoids) and raising them into your bodyguard army. Now when you actually do your Astral Projection adventuring, you can have a whole party of high level types with you. They take an intelligence penalty but are otherwise quite effective, and they're completely loyal. Don't forget to disguise them as living so as to avoid specific anti undead tactics.

JaronK

Psyren
2010-11-17, 07:03 PM
It might, so that's a thing to guard against. Also, because Astral Projection costs money, I'd imagine a good starting build would be a Dwarf Wizard 15/Runesmith 5. That means you can have True Creation as a spell like ability thus granting you the ability to cast it without exp costs and thus generate as many material components as you might ever need. Though with that said, a Shadowcraft Mage can cast Shadow Genesis, making even that spell free... but you'd need to be a gnome for that. Either way, you won't be paying much.

Just wanted to note that both Runesmith and Shadowcraft Mage have adaptations opening them up to any race. (Pages 119 and 121 respectively.)

Gametime
2010-11-17, 07:09 PM
Except it wasn't. Planar Handbook (3.5.) specifically instructs players and DMs to reference MotP for planar adventures. MotP is thus grandfathered into 3.5. without needing an explicit update.

Even without the mention in the Planar Handbook, un-updated material from 3.0 is considered 3.5 viable. Sources only supercede one another insofar as one is the "primary" source for any given piece of information, and since any book specifically dealing with planes is going to be the "primary" source for planar cosmology, the PHB gets overwritten.


I wonder how long it takes for that demiplane to run out of oxygen? No plant life to turn that carbon dioxide into something breathable, y'know.

I think a lot of planes are lacking in plant life without specifying that they are therefore impossible to breathe on. Whether this means that many more planes are hostile than their descriptions would suggest or that magic is capable of compensating for lots of things is up for debate.

The description for air-dominant planes says they usually have a breathable atmosphere, despite lacking any vegetation, so there is precedent for planes remaining breathable by magic alone, without any mundane source of oxygen.


On a more serious note, I rather wonder how this would work out if one said this was about a caster who's earned 190,000 xp, instead of simply '20th level'. So many of these assumptions about wizards that people insist on include significant expenditures of xp, so it seems to weight things very heavily in the caster's favor to say they get all that stuff AND are still 20th level.

Part of that is because a lower level character will gain more experience; in the process of a party getting through enough encounters to reach 20th level, a wizard who frequently spends experience can actually gain more than 190,000 experience.

Of course, that's highly dependent on when you do the crafting, and any expenditures that take place at 20th level should obviously be deducted, but the point is that it's not easy to figure out how much experience the wizard should get in total.

JaronK
2010-11-17, 07:24 PM
Note that it's a timeless plane, so air consumption (as well as food consumption, waste production, etc) isn't much of an issue.

JaronK

Jack_Simth
2010-11-17, 07:30 PM
You only need to cast Contact Other Plain once if you ask the right question (it involves using a handy property of the powers of two, such that the question you ask ends up being answered with a single number, but answers as many yes/no questions as you like).

We need to know the level, though. Otherwise, how can we build it?

JaronK
Per Contact Other Planes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm): "All questions are answered with 'yes,' 'no,' 'maybe,' 'never,' 'irrelevant,' or some other one-word answer"

Tell me, how many words does it take to say the equivalent of the binary 01111000001000001010001001011110000101010101010001 11100000101010101010101010?


I wonder how long it takes for that demiplane to run out of oxygen? No plant life to turn that carbon dioxide into something breathable, y'know.
Well:
1) He spends most of his time there in stasis.
2) He gets to select the standard traits (which include atmosphere)
3) Nothing says he can't import a bunch of plants and some way to make them survive.
4) Bottle of Air, that particular Ioun stone, Necklace of Adaptation, and a few other ways to not need air.


Question: Does Trap the soul work on the Wizard if he's using Astral Projection? I would think that it does, but that's just me.
Unless he's got something else stopping it, yes, and that one is somewhat hard to foil if you do it 'right'. What you end up doing is trapping his Astral Projection - which defeats him if you succeed at it, as his real body is in stasis until the astral copy dies, or he gets an action to return.


It might, so that's a thing to guard against. Also, because Astral Projection costs money, I'd imagine a good starting build would be a Dwarf Wizard 15/Runesmith 5. That means you can have True Creation as a spell like ability thus granting you the ability to cast it without exp costs and thus generate as many material components as you might ever need. Though with that said, a Shadowcraft Mage can cast Shadow Genesis, making even that spell free... but you'd need to be a gnome for that. Either way, you won't be paying much.

There's several ways to get free astral projections. One of the more popular ones is Core, even: A Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightmare.htm) Cohort (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#leadership). And with the Cohort at ECL 10, a Leadership score of 14 will do - which is -6 in penalties for that Wizard-20. Charisma 6 isn't a problem, really, even if he doesn't fix it up with items and has a familiar (probably an Improved Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFamiliar) (Quasit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#quasit)), for the free Commune 1/week).

Endarire
2010-11-17, 07:30 PM
Any Wizard can benefit from these core items:

Ring of Sustenance - 2500G
Necklace of Adaptation - 9000G

Also, astral projection states:
"You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation."

Regardless, you shouldn't need to eat, drink, nor breathe. If you need to sleep, it won't be very long.

JaronK
2010-11-17, 07:53 PM
Per Contact Other Planes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm): "All questions are answered with 'yes,' 'no,' 'maybe,' 'never,' 'irrelevant,' or some other one-word answer"

Tell me, how many words does it take to say the equivalent of the binary 01111000001000001010001001011110000101010101010001 11100000101010101010101010?

They don't answer in binary, you're just using the properties of powers of 2 that make binary good for computer languages to get a number that answers all your questions. They just give you a number. "Fifty-Three" is a perfectly acceptable answer. Better yet, get the answer in base 36. "Eighteen" would then mean the same as 44 in base 10, while "zedteen" is the same as 71 in base 10. Come on, you're a hyper intelligent wizard! You can do this... without getting into numbers that can't be expressed as one word.


Unless he's got something else stopping it, yes, and that one is somewhat hard to foil if you do it 'right'. What you end up doing is trapping his Astral Projection - which defeats him if you succeed at it, as his real body is in stasis until the astral copy dies, or he gets an action to return.

Okay, so this is one tactic the Wizard must avoid. An item that gives you that will save maneuver is really cheap and would stop it once per encounter... otherwise, optimizing Will saves a bit should be sufficient (not too hard). The Wizard himself should never pick up any gems... that's what his undead "party mates" are for. Gems can be returned to your home plane for analysis before being added to any treasure trove you may have (not sure why you'd bother though, as free True Creation is accessible).

Still, it's at least a tactic that could theoretically work.


There's several ways to get free astral projections. One of the more popular ones is Core, even: A Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightmare.htm) Cohort (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#leadership). And with the Cohort at ECL 10, a Leadership score of 14 will do - which is -6 in penalties for that Wizard-20. Charisma 6 isn't a problem, really, even if he doesn't fix it up with items and has a familiar (probably an Improved Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFamiliar) (Quasit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#quasit)), for the free Commune 1/week).

That's a bit easier than actually taking levels of Runesmith, though Runesmith is quite valuable in general. But why bother with a cohort? It's an outsider. Planar Binding + Kill it + Animate Dead + Awaken Undead should do the trick.

JaronK

Chess435
2010-11-17, 08:20 PM
Remember, the trigger object doesn't have to be a gem. It can be any specially prepared trigger object, so something like a gold piece laced with sympathy and with magic auras concealed would work.

JaronK
2010-11-17, 08:24 PM
Either way, no need for the Wizard himself to ever pick up anything... and he's still able to have one heck of a will save just in case. Mind Blank should of course always be up (if you're not undead already), which means you can't be compelled into grabbing the thing.

JaronK

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-17, 08:38 PM
To the OP: building this supposed wizard would be a fruitless exercise. It would be pretending that one person's character is representative of an ideal. So building the TippyWizard complete with stats, spells, contingencies, etc. would not help in any way.

Nanoblack
2010-11-17, 09:06 PM
To the OP: building this supposed wizard would be a fruitless exercise. It would be pretending that one person's character is representative of an ideal. So building the TippyWizard complete with stats, spells, contingencies, etc. would not help in any way.

Hardly so. We only need an example to be built in the manner of a typical paranoid wizard so it may be used as a template. Once we have the majority of our TO experts agreeing that the proper choices were made, we can then finally prove whether or not it's possible to do as the OP suggests.

Yes, I know that there are many varying opinions, but the purpose here is to eliminate the objections stating that this caster could have X spell that is a counter to Y anything when it is most likely beyond their capacity.

JaronK
2010-11-17, 09:10 PM
At this point we haven't really needed much of a build yet. Heck, all we have is a general strategy, requiring only that Astral Projection be cast (either directly, or through minions) and that minions be cast in advance. We've said nothing of the spells memorized on a given adventuring day. We've included one item (a 3kgp item to ensure one passed will save) and nothing more. And yet we've still made something nearly invincible. Everything stated could happen on any build, so long as that build doesn't require being paladin levels of good (due to the undead thing, but even a good character could decide that for the greater good it's a decent idea).

JaronK

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-17, 09:11 PM
Hardly so. We only need an example to be built in the manner of a typical paranoid wizard so it may be used as a template. Once we have the majority of our TO experts agreeing that the proper choices were made, we can then finally prove whether or not it's possible to do as the OP suggests.

Yes, I know that there are many varying opinions, but the purpose here is to eliminate the objections stating that this caster could have X spell that is a counter to Y anything when it is most likely beyond their capacity.

Well, as shown so far, the wizard doesn't really NEED X spell to counter Y. He doesn't care about Y. The only thing so far that is remotely close is trapping an astral projection via Trap the Soul or Imprisonment while the wizard sits in stasis, and even that isn't much of a threat.

Psyren
2010-11-17, 09:13 PM
Hardly so. We only need an example to be built in the manner of a typical paranoid wizard so it may be used as a template. Once we have the majority of our TO experts agreeing that the proper choices were made, we can then finally prove whether or not it's possible to do as the OP suggests.

The only thing you're proving is that complete wizard build isn't even necessary for this challenge.

SurlySeraph
2010-11-17, 09:48 PM
Would using a Thinaun weapon on the Astral Projection trap its soul?

And of course can't build *the* optimized Wizard, but we can build a pretty good example of one. Let's try to nail down some criteria we can agree on for such a wizard's traits:
1. Excellent detection abilities, frequent use of Divination
2. Can use powerful spells with xp costs, but remains at 20th level
3. Lives in a private demiplane
4. Astral Projection
5. Most of his buffs are up pretty much always
6. Contingencies
7. Knows more or less every Wizard spell printed
8. Can cast whatever spell is necessary to escape a situation proposed as a way to defeat him
9. Arbitrarily high wealth and whatever magic items would be helpful

Most of these aren't difficult.
1. Mindbender 1 and taking Mindsight is a good way to detect most things; likely a divination specialist
2. Runecaster, Shadowcraft Mage, Dweomerkeeper, anything that turns spells into SLAs...
3. Genesis
4. Planar Binding as mentioned above.
5. A level in Sacred Exorcist for Turn Undead, DMM: Persist and an arbitrarily large number of Nightsticks. Or an arbitrarily large number of Metamagic Rods of Persist, to make things easier.
6. Even if he bans Evocation, Shadow Evocation does it handily. He can have any number of Contingencies with Craft Contingent Spell, a way of evading xp costs, arbitrarily high wealth, and enough time; we should keep them within reason, though.
7. Arbitrarily high amount of money, use of planar travel and powerful divination.
8. Mage of the Arcane Order 7 is a good way. Shadow Conjuration and Evocation open up numerous options, and is all else fails there's Wish and Limited Wish.
9. Repeated casting of Wish, selling walls of iron, etc. to get the money, ability to visit any magic item crafter in existence for the items.

The build should almost certainly use early entry.
I propose, as a start:
1. 1 level in Mindbender, for Mindsight
2. 7 levels in Mage of the Arcane Order, for Spellpool III
3. 5 levels in Shadowcraft Mage, for abuse of Shadow Evocation and Conjuration
4. Some levels in Shadowcrafter, to get at least 100% real Shadow spells.
Thoughts?

Nanoblack
2010-11-17, 09:51 PM
Well, as shown so far, the wizard doesn't really NEED X spell to counter Y. He doesn't care about Y. The only thing so far that is remotely close is trapping an astral projection via Trap the Soul or Imprisonment while the wizard sits in stasis, and even that isn't much of a threat.

*facepalm*

What I'm getting at is that every time a weakness in the uber-wizards plan was exposed, someone would always chime in saying that "well they have a spell that can stop that". I want to have everything down so that doesn't happen. I'm not asking for anything to be perfect, but this topic fascinates me and I would like to see what people come up with.

Jack_Simth
2010-11-17, 10:07 PM
They don't answer in binary, you're just using the properties of powers of 2 that make binary good for computer languages to get a number that answers all your questions. They just give you a number. "Fifty-Three" is a perfectly acceptable answer. Better yet, get the answer in base 36. "Eighteen" would then mean the same as 44 in base 10, while "zedteen" is the same as 71 in base 10. Come on, you're a hyper intelligent wizard! You can do this... without getting into numbers that can't be expressed as one word. There's a limit to the number of syllables that can be pronounced. Plus there's that pesky limit that your DM is human.... but eh, whatever.

Okay, so this is one tactic the Wizard must avoid. An item that gives you that will save maneuver is really cheap and would stop it once per encounter... otherwise, optimizing Will saves a bit should be sufficient (not too hard).
Ah... you need to re-read the trigger object portion of the Trap the Soul spell if you think a Will save will help.
The Wizard himself should never pick up any gems... that's what his undead "party mates" are for. Gems can be returned to your home plane for analysis before being added to any treasure trove you may have (not sure why you'd bother though, as free True Creation is accessible).You've got some problems in getting things back.

See, if you leave the possibility of transferring items to your Demiplane, then a method exists to put things onto your demiplane.

If a method exists to put things onto your demiplane, then someone could put something there that you don't like (like, say, an anti-osmium bomb, but almost anything highly lethal will do).

If you do not leave the possibility of transferring items to your Demiplane, then you're rather stuck yourself ... which isn't necessarily a problem, but as you noted with the 'not sure why you'd bother, though', that applies to a lot more than just wealth at this level of optimization. See, you've got him getting the answer to any answerable question without difficulty, and in a very short span of time. You've got him generating free wealth at will. How many motives does he really have?


Still, it's at least a tactic that could theoretically work.Less theoretically than you might think.
That's a bit easier than actually taking levels of Runesmith, though Runesmith is quite valuable in general. But why bother with a cohort? It's an outsider. Planar Binding + Kill it + Animate Dead + Awaken Undead should do the trick. I did say 'there are many ways', right? You can also use Shapechange (on yourself or your familiar, if you have one), as the Nightmare's Project Image is Su (another Core Method, incidentally).

JaronK
2010-11-17, 10:15 PM
Ah... you need to re-read the trigger object portion of the Trap the Soul spell if you think a Will save will help. You've got some problems in getting things back.

As long as the Wizard doesn't pick things up (mine generally doesn't, and if we're going paranoid he should be adventuring in a mini fortress... the cube is a concept build that uses this idea) trigger objects don't matter.


See, if you leave the possibility of transferring items to your Demiplane, then a method exists to put things onto your demiplane.

But only things the Wizard allows to be put there (because only he can create gates to that plane, thanks to Forbiddence, and possibly preset planar traits). Heck, nothing stops you from having multiple demi planes, where you check out items as they come back.

Also note your strategy requires knowing the Wizard's name and being specifically after him.


If a method exists to put things onto your demiplane, then someone could put something there that you don't like (like, say, an anti-osmium bomb, but almost anything highly lethal will do).

Only if you can trick a genius level Mindblanked Wizard into sending it there. That seems unlikely at best.


If you do not leave the possibility of transferring items to your Demiplane, then you're rather stuck yourself ... which isn't necessarily a problem, but as you noted with the 'not sure why you'd bother, though', that applies to a lot more than just wealth at this level of optimization. See, you've got him getting the answer to any answerable question without difficulty, and in a very short span of time. You've got him generating free wealth at will. How many motives does he really have?

I dunno, he's a god. Maybe he's bored.


Less theoretically than you might think.

It's one avenue of attack, which can be stopped by anything that guarantees a successful will save. A single 3k item from Tome of Battle does that. And the flying fortress I'd have a paranoid Wizard traveling in makes it very hard to directly target him anyway.

In case you're wondering, the flying fortress concept is quite simple. Cast Greater Floating Disk. On this, put a slab of metal (or Blue Ice, or whatever else really). On this, put an Enveloping Pit, then build fortifications around this pit of various kinds. The Wizard can peer out and make attacks as needed, but then use the fortress to block line of effect when he's not casting.

JaronK

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-17, 11:45 PM
*facepalm*

What I'm getting at is that every time a weakness in the uber-wizards plan was exposed, someone would always chime in saying that "well they have a spell that can stop that". I want to have everything down so that doesn't happen. I'm not asking for anything to be perfect, but this topic fascinates me and I would like to see what people come up with.

I know that's what you're saying. What I'm saying is that then it becomes a PvP match, and those are not representative of true possibilities.

Eldariel
2010-11-17, 11:51 PM
Didn't that thread on BG stat out a relatively defended high level caster? At least some attempts were made here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3763.0). Then again, I recall I became nauseous with all the fail in that thread and stopped following it so I'm not sure what became of it.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-11-18, 12:23 PM
5. A level in Sacred Exorcist for Turn Undead, DMM: Persist and an arbitrarily large number of Nightsticks. Or an arbitrarily large number of Metamagic Rods of Persist, to make things easier.


IIRC, DMM was errataed so that it only works with divine spells.

Bayar
2010-11-18, 02:09 PM
Didn't that thread on BG stat out a relatively defended high level caster? At least some attempts were made here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3763.0). Then again, I recall I became nauseous with all the fail in that thread and stopped following it so I'm not sure what became of it.

Actually, I was thinking the same thing, but apparently it happened here, on GitP. Paranoid Casters guide to Safe Astral projection (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116975&highlight=paranoid+wizard+simulacrum+astral+projec tion) . Much win inside.

SurlySeraph
2010-11-18, 07:09 PM
IIRC, DMM was errataed so that it only works with divine spells.

The Southern Magician feat takes care of that.