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Kaeso
2010-11-17, 10:50 AM
Hey all,

I've heard some things about AoO (Attack of Oppertunity) focused builds, and heard that they work really well with the Crusader class from Tome of Battle. To be honest, I have my doubts about that. Not only does it almost demand that you have a high dex score and take the combat reflexes feat, it only works on opponents passing through areas adjecent to you. Even if you have a reach weapon, that won't make alot of difference, unless you're fighting in a really, really narrow corridor or defending a bottleneck. Speaking of defending, that's the weakness of an AoO build: it demands that you stand still and wait for enemies to come to you. Even a creature with animalistic intelligence (2 or 1) will figure out that going for your AoO character will be harder than running around you and attacking another party member. Even if we assume that you will be attacked while defending, you get only one AoO for them entering your threathened area. If you miss, you're ingaged in melee, thus making your attacks of oppertunity useless.

I'd like to know what actually makes Attack of Oppertunity focused builds worth the oppertunity cost.

mootoall
2010-11-17, 10:54 AM
Karmic Stike. Robilar's gambit. Enlarge person + Spiked Chain nets you 20ft. reach. Thicket of Blades makes your threatened squares (all of them!) difficult terrain. It'll take quite a bit to get past you ...

Greenish
2010-11-17, 10:54 AM
Tripping. Hold the Line. Stand Still. Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit. Stormguard Warrior.

Besides, a tripper can move as much as he wants, nothing says he has to stand in one place.

[Edit]:
Thicket of Blades makes your threatened squares (all of them!) difficult terrain.It doesn't, it merely causes all movement (5' step, withdraw) to provoke.

Sir Swindle89
2010-11-17, 10:55 AM
The idea is you get feats to get AoO's for any one doing any thing within like 30ft (think that was the reach on my AoO'er)

and yes you need a high Dex, as high as you can get it.

Fighters work great for this as well. (the best imho)

Kaeso
2010-11-17, 10:57 AM
I see. What would, for example, be a good AoO build?

Flickerdart
2010-11-17, 10:58 AM
A Knight is front-loaded for this, with abilities that make his threatened squares difficult terrain, negate Tumble and compel enemies to attack him. But more than the first five levels is really pushing it.

mootoall
2010-11-17, 11:01 AM
I was almost certain that there was a stance that made your threatened squares difficult terrain ... Either way, if you're a spiked chain tripper, it'll be pretty difficult to get past you no matter what.

Greenish
2010-11-17, 11:06 AM
I was almost certain that there was a stance that made your threatened squares difficult terrainDeepstone Sentinel has Mountain Fortress Stance, which makes all adjacent squares difficult terrain, but it's a class feature.

More likely, you're thinking about Thicket of Blades, but have forgotten what it actually does. :smallwink:

Sir Swindle89
2010-11-17, 11:11 AM
Deepstone Sentinel has Mountain Fortress Stance, which makes all adjacent squares difficult terrain, but it's a class feature.

More likely, you're thinking about Thicket of Blades, but have forgotten what it actually does. :smallwink:

Makes it so you still get AoO's on 5ft steps and tumbles.

SamsDisciple
2010-11-17, 11:23 AM
One of the key points of an AoO build is also to rely on your team mates to provide AoO, such as control the battlefield to force enemies to you instead of going around, bullrush enemies past you, make you invisible so that enemies don't know that the AoO king is there. My current one is great but you need to watch out for/prepare for incorporeal creatures that can't be tripped and can glide through most battlefield control spells

Farlion
2010-11-17, 11:26 AM
Have you heard of Jack B Quick? (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick)

Cheers,
Farlion

Ruinix
2010-11-17, 11:35 AM
One of the key points of an AoO build is also to rely on your team mates to provide AoO, such as control the battlefield to force enemies to you instead of going around, bullrush enemies past you, make you invisible so that enemies don't know that the AoO king is there. My current one is great but you need to watch out for/prepare for incorporeal creatures that can't be tripped and can glide through most battlefield control spells

Spiked Chain of FORCE and incorporeals also receive slaps from urs AoO XDDD

i love the idea of AoO king with impr. invi haha totally worth the build XDD

Derjuin
2010-11-17, 11:40 AM
If you can afford 10 rogue levels, you can also grab the Opportunist special ability and Savvy Rogue feat from C. Scoundrel, allowing you to make AoOs whenever an enemy is hit in melee by your allies. Also, Deft Opportunist (from C. Adv.) grants a +4 (untyped, I believe) bonus to attack rolls for AoOs.

Greenish
2010-11-17, 11:40 AM
Spiked Chain of FORCEThe Force property from MIC is ranged weapon only, I seem to recall. Incarnate 2 or a Shape Soulmeld & Open Whatwasitagain Chakra would work, but you still can't trip them.

Eldariel
2010-11-17, 11:46 AM
Crusader with or without small dips is a great tripper. The generic tripping shell is:

Combat Reflexes - Obvious. Might require Dex boosters eventually but c'est la vie.
EWP: Spiked Chain - For obvious reasons
Improved Trip/Stand Still - To deny enemy movement
Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades - To make escaping through mundane means basically impossible
Mage Slayer - Obvious. Otherwise this is completely useless against casters.
Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike - Obvious; if opponent has a long reach they might engage you so being able to give them a slappin' back is v. good.
Defensive Sweep - Since you use means to force opponent to stay still, you should be able to trigger this every round.


Few others you could add like Hold the Line (makes Charges provoke a bit earlier) & Overpowering Attack (full-round action to deal double damage on an attack, and double damage on all AoOs), etc. but that's the general build.

And yeah, you wanna be Enlarged either with help of a caster or under your own power; 20' reach means you can cover an area larger than an Entangle, and can move each round. It also means you compare favorably to most monsters (only bipedal Gargantuans and quadroped Colossals can match a 20' reach, though weapon wielders are much tougher).

Generally you can add a charger shell to the controller shell and charge in first round and benefit of your massive Power Attack bonus on all the AoOs. You can also, as a Crusader, walk in and Strike. Fighter builds want to get to use Overpowering Attack if possible, but that's Fighter 16 and thus not much of a consideration. The Monk-dip for Decisive Strike is slightly more accessible but it's more "meh" as well. But yeah, lockdown builds work, alright. They also combine well with chargers, especially with Travel Devotion or another way to move as an immediate action. And yeah. You basically malhandle somebod(ies) and then position yourself so as to disable as many people as possible.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-17, 11:47 AM
The Force property from MIC is ranged weapon only, I seem to recall. Incarnate 2 or a Shape Soulmeld & Open Whatwasitagain Chakra would work, but you still can't trip them.

IIRC That would be Shape Souldmeld: Planar chausable and open least chakra...

Greenish
2010-11-17, 12:16 PM
IIRC That would be Shape Souldmeld: Planar chausable and open least chakra...Planar Chasuble gives resistances (shaped), increases the radius of Incarnum Radiance (bound to brow) or gives you Gate (bound to soul).

I was thinking of Crystal Helm.

FMArthur
2010-11-17, 12:17 PM
AoO builds are actually quite varied and benefit from such a large variety of feats that fitting all the ones you want into a build is difficult/impossible. It's just nice to see such a well-supported combat option. :smallsmile:

I am especially fond of using Double Hit with Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit. You attack your foe four times if they strike you! If you have more feats than God but are somehow low level enough for melee combos to still work, you could also combine it with EWP (Kusari-gama) for weilding what are basically two spiked chains as light weapons, Improved Trip, and High Sword Low Axe. That takes 13 feats total, including their prerequisites, though. :smalltongue:

Last Laugh
2010-11-17, 12:26 PM
I was almost certain that there was a stance that made your threatened squares difficult terrain ... Either way, if you're a spiked chain tripper, it'll be pretty difficult to get past you no matter what.

The knight has an ability that makes threatened squares difficult terrain. However the opponent needs to begin his turn in your reach. (so they can tumbly from outside your reach)

Eldariel
2010-11-17, 12:44 PM
The knight has an ability that makes threatened squares difficult terrain. However the opponent needs to begin his turn in your reach. (so they can tumbly from outside your reach)

Difficult terrain doesn't prevent Tumble anyways, only increases the DC, not to mention stuff like Withdraw or Spring Attack; for all these reasons I prefer Thicket of Blades.

ericgrau
2010-11-17, 12:56 PM
Reach and combat reflexes are all you really need. Usually only a couple foes run by you anyway, so your dex doesn't need to be that high. Even a 12-14 may do it. You don't just stand still and wait for foes to be stupid, you use your reach to hit them from afar and if they want to hit you back they must provoke. Or even if some foes tumble you can still wail into them and AoO the rest. Protecting allies is nice but really in D&D most classes can take care of themselves and the melee is also the highest damage dealer. This isn't WoW.

FMArthur
2010-11-17, 01:03 PM
The Crusader's Devoted Spirit discipline is simply the best there is at ensuring AoO strategies can actually work. Typically AoO builds either focus on area denial or that brutal counterattack feat combo, and the Crusader has multiple options to make sure that each work and that your foes aren't going to have an easy time going after your allies.

Keld Denar
2010-11-17, 01:43 PM
One thing to remember...when your size goes up, your dex (and thus AoOs granted by combat reflexes) goes down. That means you'll probably need a rather decent starting dex and/or +dex items.

Most trip builds try to increase reach, and the easiest way to do that is to increases size. An enlarged fighter with a spiked chain spans a distance 50' across (20' reach on either side, + 10' base width). Thats a LOT of space to cover. If you do huge (via Expansion), you cover 75' across (30' on either side, + 15' base width). Most things don't have the movement speed to go ALL the way around you and your allies can stay within your threatened area, slightly behind you, allowing you to pin down foes in front of you with Combat Reflexes + Standstill. Size increases also synergize with tripping.

Master_Rahl22
2010-11-17, 02:25 PM
To expand on why Crusaders make a good class for AoO builds, there are quite a few Devoted Spirit maneuvers (which Crusader is the only ToB base class to get access to without spending feats) that are amazing for tanking and battlefield control. There are maneuvers to give enemies penalties to attack your allies, the aforementioned Thicket of Blades that makes any kind of movement provoke AoOs, and then the Crusader class feature to delay damage and turn it into attack and damage bonuses means you're more likely to hit with your AoOs. Put that all together and you get a win-win situation. If they ignore you, they take a penalty to attack and you may get an AoO against them as they try to go past you. If they come at you, you will likely get an AoO against them and your heavy armor will make you hard to hit, and hitting you just means you hit them harder with your AoOs from Robilar's/Karmic.

Keld Denar
2010-11-17, 02:30 PM
Well, there are really two different breeds of AoO builds, I guess. There's controller AoO builds who focus on things like expanding reach and tripping or using standstill to control foes. Then theres the crazy suicidal guys like Jack B Quick who trigger their AoOs with Karmic Strike and/or Robilar's Gambit and hit you back harder than you hit them. You generally don't have the available resources to do both at once, though.

Ruinix
2010-11-17, 02:40 PM
The Force property from MIC is ranged weapon only, I seem to recall. Incarnate 2 or a Shape Soulmeld & Open Whatwasitagain Chakra would work, but you still can't trip them.

gghhhaaa im always fall in that trap XDDD

ok

Ghost Touch ---> Ghost Strike.

now u can deal Criticals to undeads and hit incorporeals, also u can deal SA and alike :D all for +3 enhance ^^ both on MiC

Person_Man
2010-11-17, 02:43 PM
All the good advice has pretty much already been given by the other regulars.

I would just add that there are a ton of ways to add extra attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595). Attacks of Opportunity are good in that they occur during your enemy's turn and can theoretically stop his action. But they're not always the most efficient method of adding extra attacks/damage, and lots of effects can stop your enemy from acting.

For example, lets say you take Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise->Improved Trip->Knockdown, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency. You may also need/want to take the feat tax of Weapon Finesse, since you may not have the resources to have high Str AND Dex and perhaps also high Int, Wis, or Cha plus respectable Con.

That's 5 or 6 feats. And from that investment, you might get 1 extra attack per enemy that moves up to you, and your enemy's movement is limited (because you knock them Prone. And this latter effect may prevent them from attacking you in melee. Great stuff, right?

Well unfortunately, any enemy that is sufficiently big/strong is very hard to Trip. Plenty of enemies will stay away from you and use spells, ranged attacks, or other special abilities, and not attempt to move up next to you and attack in melee. Plus Tumble and 5 ft steps can bypass AoO from movement. Or if they're Prone, it barely effects them, because they're not using melee attacks or have plenty of reach.

Now there are ways to counteract those weaknesses - Blind Fighting->Mage Slayer, Martial Study->Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades), etc. But they take even more resources.

So my position is that you should decide on your build first, and then if it happens to have high Dexterity and class abilities that lend themselves to AoO, then you should optimize your use of them. If you don't have high Dexterity or you lack class abilities with good synergy, then beyond using a reach weapon and maybe taking Combat Reflexes, you should most likely find some other combos.

Greenish
2010-11-17, 02:54 PM
To expand on why Crusaders make a good class for AoO builds, there are quite a few Devoted Spirit maneuvers (which Crusader is the only ToB base class to get access to without spending feats) that are amazing for tanking and battlefield control.Also worth pointing out is the White Raven, which has a few very controller-y options (in addition to being generally awesome).

Ghost Touch ---> Ghost Strike.

now u can deal Criticals to undeads and hit incorporeals, also u can deal SA and alike :D all for +3 enhance ^^ both on MiCWith Spiked Chain, you probably won't be going crit fishing, and would thus be better served by Lesser Truedeath Crystal or Gauntlets of Ghost Fighting.

ShiningStarling
2010-11-17, 06:25 PM
As no one has said this yet, a fighter whip build seems best. Take the proficiency, foci, and improved whip proficiency. You threaten a 15 ft area, then get enlarged for 30 ft reach. The trick to this is having a ton of CCAAA$$$$HHH! so you can deal some of every kind of energy damage with a hit. Take TWF and get 2 whips, some trip feats, maybe martial feats for thicket of blades and presto! Most reach you will get without being some weird class or race, and your hits are elemental! :smallamused:

Eldariel
2010-11-17, 06:30 PM
As no one has said this yet, a fighter whip build seems best. Take the proficiency, foci, and improved whip proficiency. You threaten a 15 ft area, then get enlarged for 30 ft reach. The trick to this is having a ton of CCAAA$$$$HHH! so you can deal some of every kind of energy damage with a hit. Take TWF and get 2 whips, some trip feats, maybe martial feats for thicket of blades and presto! Most reach you will get without being some weird class or race, and your hits are elemental! :smallamused:

The issue with that is that Whip doesn't allow AoOs and can't damage armed opponents. So...it's fairly terrible for an AoO build. Whip Dagger or Awlpike would work but I consider both to be slightly too silly to use since they more or less obsolete other weapons (reach is the king in 3.X).

Pechvarry
2010-11-17, 07:00 PM
A Knight is front-loaded for this, with abilities that make his threatened squares difficult terrain, negate Tumble and compel enemies to attack him. But more than the first five levels is really pushing it.

I see this said a lot. Unfortunately, Knight DCs scale with class level instead of character level. This means the longer you're out of the Knight class, the less useful your Knight class features become (or at least, the less reliable they become).

Remember, kids, always cry to your DMs to let you base your DCs on character level. And to let you have Diplomacy as a class skill.

ShiningStarling
2010-11-17, 07:01 PM
The issue with that is that Whip doesn't allow AoOs and can't damage armed opponents. So...it's fairly terrible for an AoO build. Whip Dagger or Awlpike would work but I consider both to be slightly too silly to use since they more or less obsolete other weapons (reach is the king in 3.X).

That is what the improved whipped proficiency feat does, gets rid of all that stuff, it says so right here.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Improved_Whip_Proficiency_%283.5e_Feat%29

SurlySeraph
2010-11-17, 07:04 PM
As no one has said this yet, a fighter whip build seems best. Take the proficiency, foci, and improved whip proficiency. You threaten a 15 ft area, then get enlarged for 30 ft reach. The trick to this is having a ton of CCAAA$$$$HHH! so you can deal some of every kind of energy damage with a hit. Take TWF and get 2 whips, some trip feats, maybe martial feats for thicket of blades and presto! Most reach you will get without being some weird class or race, and your hits are elemental! :smallamused:

There's some low-level arcane spell in the Spell Compendium that turns your limbs into flaming whips. Which I think you can make AoOs with. I think Pyrokineticist works, too.


AoO builds are actually quite varied and benefit from such a large variety of feats that fitting all the ones you want into a build is difficult/impossible. It's just nice to see such a well-supported combat option. :smallsmile:

I am especially fond of using Double Hit with Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit. You attack your foe four times if they strike you! If you have more feats than God but are somehow low level enough for melee combos to still work, you could also combine it with EWP (Kusari-gama) for weilding what are basically two spiked chains as light weapons, Improved Trip, and High Sword Low Axe. That takes 13 feats total, including their prerequisites, though. :smalltongue:

Cavelord 4 gets Spiked Chains as one-handed weapons, though it's less efficient than kusari-gamas.

13 feats is easy. Human Fighter 2/ Martial Rogue 2/ Psychic Warrior 2/ Martial Wizard 1 with 2 flaws. (OK, the loss of BAB and low HD are terrible even with Abrupt Jaunt and powers to help out, and your DM will throw books at you. But it's totally doable). And Ranger, Swashbuckler, and Swordsage are good if you need specific feats.

Also, on a tangent, to what degree is it possible to chain attacks and combat maneuvers together? Improved Trip for an attack if you successfully trip, Knock-Down for a trip on pretty much any attack, Knockback for a bullrush on an attack, Shock Trooper for two trips on a bullrush...
So, hit an opponent, knock him back into another with Knockback, make a trip attempt against both with Shock Trooper (and a second trip attempt against the guy you hit, with Knock-Down), and make a free attack on each from Improved Trip if you succeed (and have enough reach). Then you make your next iterative attack.
This is without considering tactical feats, as with Aptitude Weapons things could get extremely confusing very quickly.

Eldariel
2010-11-17, 08:04 PM
That is what the improved whipped proficiency feat does, gets rid of all that stuff, it says so right here.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Improved_Whip_Proficiency_%283.5e_Feat%29

DnDWiki is not in any way official material so it may not be terribly useful to suggest homebrew items from there in generic discussions; sure, you could dig up X from our homebrew forums that makes Y less terrible too but that's hardly a solution for most people with limited or no homebrew access.

It doesn't help that the quality of DnDwiki homebrew is overall rather terrible (though not this particular feat; it's quite a decent fix to a terrible weapon, though allowing 15' reach weapons makes me doubtful for the usefulness of...well, other things). Official Whip is absolutely terrible for AoO builds for obvious reasons, but yes, you could certainly homebrew a less terrible version.

ShiningStarling
2010-11-20, 08:08 AM
DnDWiki is not in any way official material so it may not be terribly useful to suggest homebrew items from there in generic discussions; sure, you could dig up X from our homebrew forums that makes Y less terrible too but that's hardly a solution for most people with limited or no homebrew access.

It doesn't help that the quality of DnDwiki homebrew is overall rather terrible (though not this particular feat; it's quite a decent fix to a terrible weapon, though allowing 15' reach weapons makes me doubtful for the usefulness of...well, other things). Official Whip is absolutely terrible for AoO builds for obvious reasons, but yes, you could certainly homebrew a less terrible version.
I am sorry about that, I just knew that there were official feats or feat chains, but not what they were, finding them would be quite useful.

Runestar
2010-11-20, 08:19 AM
The fighter's devastating attack (PHB2) variant is quite useful in this aspect. True, you make only 1 attack at double damage, but all your AoOs do double damage as well. Even if you make only 1 extra attack via robilar's gambit, that more than justifies giving up your normal full attack routine. :smallcool:

Curmudgeon
2010-12-24, 09:21 PM
Makes it so you still get AoO's on 5ft steps and tumbles.
Yes to the 5' steps, but no to the tumbles. (This bogus notion is yet another fumble in the FAQ.)

Both the skill and stance descriptions state in absolute terms that movement either doesn't (Tumble) or does (Thicket of Blades) provoke AoOs. But Tumble wins this rules disagreement.
Errata Rule: Primary Sources

When you find a disagreement between two D&DŽ rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities. You can Tumble circles around someone in a Thicket of Blades stance, and never be in any danger if you make the DC on your checks.

FMArthur
2010-12-24, 09:30 PM
Doesn't Tumble automatically win for being a specific exception to the movement-provokes rule that the maneuver fails to specifically call out?