Why Did Nale Betray His Father?

[The Pale King]

Yes, I'm aware that Tarquin "answered" this back in 727, but considering how true the rest of that story turned out to be, I'm doubting that explains it. Did Tarquin ever tell Nale about how he's effectively ruling all of the Western Continent? Because if he did, it makes no sense for him to want to be crowned instead of the Empress of Blood, because there's no actual power in being the ruler. I know Nale has an ego problem, but he doesn't seem stupid enough to betray his father over something that can't even benefit him. I'm sensing Nale had a different reason for betraying Tarquin then we're aware of.

[suszterpatt]

I don't think it'd be out of character, actually. We're talking about the guy who almost killed his own brother (and then almost imprisoned him for months and killed his friends), simply because Elan refused to join his party.

If I'd want to let my imagination run wild, I'd say that Nale did want to seize the crown for himself for his own secret plan to put Tarquin and co. out of power, but Tarquin obviously wouldn't let him run an empire for that exact reason. So ultimately, Tarquin's story is true.

[Shale]

Also, Nale isn't exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer. He's not Elan, but that's a backhanded compliment if ever I've made one.

[Souhiro]

Nail is inteligent, but that don't mean being clever at all. You know, and this comic show it in many ways, like the BrainSucker who choosed Roy before Vaarsuvius.

It isn't diferent as many INT-8 barbarians who creates a cunning plan, but many Int-20 wizards can only search for the "I Win" spell, and if they couldn't find it, they just enter, shoots fireballs and cry and weep.

It could have been just jealousy from Nail's part, or Sabine (an IFCC pawn) meddling. Or just can be Someone Else Problem. SEP.

[Darakonis]

It isn't diferent as many INT-8 barbarians who creates a cunning plan, but many Int-20 wizards can only search for the "I Win" spell, and if they couldn't find it, they just enter, shoots fireballs and cry and weep.
To be fair, 8-INT barbarians who come up with cunning plans is attributable to bad roleplaying on the part of the player.

If you read the "tactics" sections in the Monster Manual, as Intelligence goes down, the tactics become increasingly simple and animalistic.

Peace,
-Darakonis

[Felhammer]

Knowing Nale, he probably thought he could directly rule the entire continent. Why fear eventual oppositions when you can accomplish what your father could not?

[Gift Jeraff]

Knowing Nale, he probably thought he could directly rule the entire continent. Why fear eventual oppositions when you can accomplish what your father could not?
This + Nale is conceited as Hell. If he's going to share power with 6 other people (and I doubt he wants that), he at least wants the image of a ruler.

A better question would be why didn't Tarquin just let Nale rule and either learn his lesson or just die? I mean, yeah, there's the whole "being denied" and "disproportionate revenge" both of them got going on, so I wouldn't be surprised if Tarquin attacked Nale first for even suggesting something that goes against the plan. Maybe he felt he knew too much?

[Theodoriph]

To be fair, 8-INT barbarians who come up with cunning plans is attributable to bad roleplaying on the part of the player.

If you read the "tactics" sections in the Monster Manual, as Intelligence goes down, the tactics become increasingly simple and animalistic.

Peace,
-Darakonis


Except the Monster Manual explicitly ignores that when describing monsters. It describes creatures like the Deionychus as using "cunning tactics" during pack hunting. They have an int score of 2. Hyenas (int 2) are also known for their cunning. So I'm pretty sure a barbarian with int 8 can manage a cunning plan.

Wolves (also int 2) distract you from the front while have other members of the pack sneak up from the flanks and rear to nail you.

Meanwhile Griffons (int 5) have a very simplistic attack pattern. "Griffons prefer to pounce on their prey, either diving to the attack or leaping from above."

[slayerx]

Yes, I'm aware that Tarquin "answered" this back in 727, but considering how true the rest of that story turned out to be, I'm doubting that explains it. Did Tarquin ever tell Nale about how he's effectively ruling all of the Western Continent? Because if he did, it makes no sense for him to want to be crowned instead of the Empress of Blood, because there's no actual power in being the ruler. I know Nale has an ego problem, but he doesn't seem stupid enough to betray his father over something that can't even benefit him. I'm sensing Nale had a different reason for betraying Tarquin then we're aware of.

There is power in being the ruler, the ruler just doesn't realize that they are being controlled and only does what the advisors want them to do. Tarquin's party picks rulers by the simply fact that they are easily influenced and controlled. Nale however would not allow himself to be controlled and thus would keep all the power to himself and not give his father and malack any influence. So ya, Nale could indeed rule over the empire of blood...

However though Nale is smart he is not as smart or wise as tarquin... Nale is so focused on ruling over others that he does not fully realize what could result from his rule; namely what happened to Tarquin... Nale doesn't realize that he would probably loose his empire within the next year or so. He's got a big enough ego to believe that he can hold the empire together, even expand it without falling as his father did

[Shale]

The larger hazard is that any ruler who's not on board with The Plan (Western Continent Edition) would immediately and irrevocably make enemies of both other empires. Nale would have a target painted on his back from day one, and nothing short of removing Tarquin's other associates from Sweat and Tears would get rid of it.

[NerfTW]

Given that Nale attacked with at least 4 members of the Linear Guild, I think a far more likely explanation is simply that he intended to take over his father's plan with his own team.

[Sylthia]

Maybe Tarquin isn't telling the whole truth. Maybe he toppled an empire and installed Nale as the puppet king before toppling Nale's new kingdom.

[Darakonis]

Except the Monster Manual explicitly ignores that when describing monsters. It describes creatures like the Deionychus as using "cunning tactics" during pack hunting. They have an int score of 2. Hyenas (int 2) are also known for their cunning. So I'm pretty sure a barbarian with int 8 can manage a cunning plan.

Wolves (also int 2) distract you from the front while have other members of the pack sneak up from the flanks and rear to nail you.

Meanwhile Griffons (int 5) have a very simplistic attack pattern. "Griffons prefer to pounce on their prey, either diving to the attack or leaping from above."

I suppose this boils down to semantics. I still consider the "cunning tactics" used by animals to be animalistic (by definition). I agree that an 8-int character can manage concepts like flanking and distraction.

If you look at the tactics of intelligent Dragons, you'll find more clever and strategic uses of abilities.

Peace,
-Darakonis

[Iranon]

Sorry for the wall of text, but I don't think INT 8 should be a straitjacket that rules out being cunning.

*

If we assume that naturally rolled INT is comparable to IQ and the population at large still rolls 3d6 for their stats and sticks with them, a very good approximation is IQ = 5*INT+47.5.

IQ is defined to follow a Normal Distribution with a mean of 100 and a standard distribution of 15... mean and sd match, not quite a Normal Distribution but closer than anything we can do IRL since we don't need to worry about measuring errors.

INT 8 would therefore imply an IQ of 87.5, which means 1 out of 5 randomly chosen people would be less intelligent. That's not low enough to rule out any cunning plans, even before you consider that intelligence isn't uniform.
I'm a Mensa member (requiring the real-life equivalent of INT 17) but I don't consider myself cunning at all and I'm utterly useless at some things associated with intelligence. Especially not if they involve memory, concentration or human beings.

Even if you think IQ and INT are something very different, the same principles hold... 'bottom 20% over the full set' doesn't really tell much about a single aspect. And 'cunning' could arguably be driven by WIS or CHA rather than INT anyway.

[Darakonis]

Sorry for the wall of text, but I don't think INT 8 should be a straitjacket that rules out being cunning.

*

If we assume that naturally rolled INT is comparable to IQ and the population at large still rolls 3d6 for their stats and sticks with them, a very good approximation is IQ = 5*INT+47.5.

IQ is defined to follow a Normal Distribution with a mean of 100 and a standard distribution of 15... mean and sd match, not quite a Normal Distribution but closer than anything we can do IRL since we don't need to worry about measuring errors.

INT 8 would therefore imply an IQ of 87.5, which means 1 out of 5 randomly chosen people would be less intelligent. That's not low enough to rule out any cunning plans, even before you consider that intelligence isn't uniform.
I'm a Mensa member (requiring the real-life equivalent of INT 17) but I don't consider myself cunning at all and I'm utterly useless at some things associated with intelligence. Especially not if they involve memory, concentration or human beings.

Even if you think IQ and INT are something very different, the same principles hold... 'bottom 20% over the full set' doesn't really tell much about a single aspect. And 'cunning' could arguably be driven by WIS or CHA rather than INT anyway.

I'm not implying that 8-intelligence is "drooling from mouth" stupid. 8-intelligence is simply below average for humans. However, if you consider the great military strategists throughout history (Caesar, Sun Tzu, etc.), they were all regarded as being of above-average intelligence.

Yes, a stroke of genius can emerge on occasion from someone of below-average intelligence, but those with higher intelligence have the brain capacity to more easily factor in the complex interactions involved in creating a complex battle plan, including "thinking outside the box." Coming up with a plan is a form of problem solving, which is an intellectual function.

Quoting the poster to whom I initially replied:


It isn't diferent as many INT-8 barbarians who creates a cunning plan, but many Int-20 wizards can only search for the "I Win" spell, and if they couldn't find it, they just enter, shoots fireballs and cry and weep.

In theory, there shouldn't be many 8-INT barbarians coming up with cunning plans and 20-INT wizards able to do no more than hit things with their magic stick. But in practice, players tend to be more intelligent than their 8-INT barbarians and less intelligent than their 20-INT wizards.

Peace,
-Darakonis

[hamishspence]

In theory, there shouldn't be many 8-INT barbarians coming up with cunning plans and 20-INT wizards able to do no more than hit things with their magic stick. But in practice, players tend to be more intelligent than their 8-INT barbarians and less intelligent than their 20-INT wizards.

Baldrick, from the Blackadder series, regularly comes up with them, despite (except maybe the first one) being pretty stupid. Problem is, the plans nearly always have major flaws.

"I have, a cunning plan...."

[Coidzor]

Nale is stupid and wanted to try to take over the world, starting with the wartorn western continent and then attacking the Elves.

He just doesn't strike me as intelligent enough to try any other tactic.

Because he thinks he's better than his father.

[krossbow]

IMO, he probably wanted to try and unite the empires and continue gobbling up the surrounding areas, dangers of being overthrown be damned.


Ambition is one of nale's weaknesses; as such, i think he probably tried to overthrow his father so he could try and merge the empires.

[B. Dandelion]

Well Nale was there as Tarquin unveiled the real plan to his real allies. Sure, realistically a baby could not be expected to remember that, but I think the intended impression was that he grew up in the midst of this conspiracy.

I wouldn't put it past Tarquin to be self-serving in his recounting of how the fallout happened, though. In fact, this bit:


"It's my fault, really. I raised him to be ruthless and efficient--or at least tried to. I shouldn'tve been so surprised when he turned on us."

...strikes me as the kind of thing that could be obfuscating some entirely different conflict. "I raised him to be evil, and he turned on us" implies a correlation between these two events, thus becoming "Nale turned on us because he is evil" in the listener's mind, without actually stating that outright at all. Nale could have turned on Tarquin for any reason and yet that statement wouldn't technically be a lie.

[Coidzor]

Well Nale was there as Tarquin unveiled the real plan to his real allies. Sure, realistically a baby could not be expected to remember that, but I think the intended impression was that he grew up in the midst of this conspiracy.

I wouldn't put it past Tarquin to be self-serving in his recounting of how the fallout happened, though. In fact, this bit:



...strikes me as the kind of thing that could be obfuscating some entirely different conflict. "I raised him to be evil, and he turned on us" implies a correlation between these two events, thus becoming "Nale turned on us because he is evil" in the listener's mind, without actually stating that outright at all. Nale could have turned on Tarquin for any reason and yet that statement wouldn't technically be a lie.

And yet, going by Nale's personality, it's entirely plausible that he would've tried to take power away from his old man.

A here-to-fore unknown source of conflict isn't necessary. Though if Rich did pull one out it'd be interesting.

[SadisticFishing]

Cunning is a wisdom thing. An 8 int 8 wisdom barbarian could not have cunning plans.

18 wisdom, 8 int? Awesome plans for tactics, terrible strategy, imho.

Then again, there is some overlap between the mental attributes, clearly.

[B. Dandelion]

And yet, going by Nale's personality, it's entirely plausible that he would've tried to take power away from his old man.

A here-to-fore unknown source of conflict isn't necessary. Though if Rich did pull one out it'd be interesting.

Sure, it's just not out of character for Tarquin to mislead, either. I think there could be more to that story, not that there must be.

[Orzel]

I think Nale, like Ian, figured out Tarquin and Associates's plan by observation. Nale faked not knowing that the rulers were pawns and thought he could get his dad to make him king. His dad realized that Nale was so smart to be controlled, would try to take the whole desert, and get get ganked by rebels and elves.

So he told him No.
Then Nale decided to betray his dad and tried to make himself King of Blood.

[RMS Oceanic]

I'm throwing my lot in with the general idea that Nale didn't see the point in all this subtlety, he probably pushed Tarquin to unify the empires and make himself king so that Nale would be heir apparent, and when Tarquin refused Nale decided that he knew better and tried to seize power, which failed.

[cho_j]

I think there could be more to that story, not that there must be.

Couldn't agree more with this. When you've got a character as narcissistic as Nale, and one as ruthless as Tarquin, both of whom are extraordinarily deceitful, more if's, and's, and but's come out of the woodwork than do termites when you tent. On the other hand, it seems totally in keeping with the situation on the Western Continent as we now know it as well as with Nale's personality for him to have challenged his father's rule in some way or another, either (as has been rather cleverly suggested above) by asking to be a puppet king and expecting to make Tarquin & co. defunct, or by flat out challenging his father's party with his own.

[Gift Jeraff]

I am going to retract my previous post and come up with a new theory:

Tarquin really did care about Nale. He just didn't want Nale to be crowned because he knew he might end up dying within a year. Nale thought he would be able to do better than his father did as king, took Taquin's denial as an insult, formed his own party, and attacked because he couldn't allow him to continue breathing after an insult like that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0061.html).