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vip00
2010-11-17, 03:39 PM
I have two questions:

1) Would throwing a 2 Handed Weapon (Based just on the Thrown Weapons and Wielding weapons 2 handed categories)cause STR damage to be multiplied x1.5?

2) Can Hand of the Apprentice (Generalist Wizard) and Overhand Chop (Two Handed Fighter - from APG) be used together?

So my STR Bonus is +4, if I use Hand of the Apprentice will it double to +8?

3)If the character has weapon-specific feats, like weapon focus and weapon specialization, does he get to apply those when he throws his weapon? I don't see why training to fight with a greatsword would teach you how to throw it better... but the RAW don't prohibit it.

TO make things easier, here are a couple of reference passages:

Overhand Chop: At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls.

Hand of the Apprentice (Su): You cause your melee weapon to fly from your grasp and strike a foe before instantly returning to you. As a standard action, you can make a single attack using a melee weapon at a range of 30 feet. This attack is treated as a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, except that you add your Intelligence modifier on the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier (damage still relies on Strength). This ability cannot be used to perform a combat maneuver. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a 4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Diarmuid
2010-11-17, 03:50 PM
I have two questions:

1) Would throwing a 2 Handed Weapon (Based just on the Thrown Weapons and Wielding weapons 2 handed categories)cause STR damage to be multiplied x1.5?

2) Can Hand of the Apprentice (Generalist Wizard) and Overhand Chop (Two Handed Fighter - from APG) be used together?

So my STR Bonus is +4, if I use Hand of the Apprentice will it double to +8?

3)If the character has weapon-specific feats, like weapon focus and weapon specialization, does he get to apply those when he throws his weapon? I don't see why training to fight with a greatsword would teach you how to throw it better... but the RAW don't prohibit it.

TO make things easier, here are a couple of reference passages:

Overhand Chop: At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls.

Hand of the Apprentice (Su): You cause your melee weapon to fly from your grasp and strike a foe before instantly returning to you. As a standard action, you can make a single attack using a melee weapon at a range of 30 feet. This attack is treated as a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, except that you add your Intelligence modifier on the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier (damage still relies on Strength). This ability cannot be used to perform a combat maneuver. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a 4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Per the rules you quoted, throwing the 2H weapon is a full-round action. Using a full-round action for that removes the ability to combine that with using a Supernatural Ability like Hand of the apprentice. It could be argued that a full-round action is not technically an "attack action" and thusly might also be mutually exclusive with Overhand Chop.

Keld Denar
2010-11-17, 03:55 PM
1) Yes

2) Yes and no. You can use them together. Overhand Chop would give you the +8. Hand of hte Apprentice does not change this. The parenthesis in the 3rd sentance in Hand of the Apprentice is simply reminder text reminding you that the damage is based on Str. If you normally get 2x Str, then you deal damage normally.

3) Yes, it doesn't say they don't. Unless your DM kills it.

vip00
2010-11-17, 03:59 PM
1) Yes

I guess I'm confused about why. Here is the two-handed entry in SRD:
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

It explicitly mentions applying 1.5 times damage in melee only. The thrown weapon rules quoted above would seem to apply in a ranged situation - and those rules say to apply your strength modifier, not 1.5 your strength modifier...

AstralFire
2010-11-17, 04:32 PM
I'd let you do it just because two-handed weapon throwing usually sucks and it really shouldn't.

vip00
2010-11-17, 05:01 PM
Not to be rude, but isn't two-handed weapon throwing supposed to suck? It's like saying melee damage with bows sucks. Two-handed melee weapons are really not meant to be used that way, therefore it sucks when you do it
that way.

AstralFire
2010-11-17, 05:03 PM
Throwing any weapon designed primarily for melee use should suck. Two-handed throwing weapons should not suck. For the sake of expediency, I'm OK melding most thrown and melee weapons together mechanically.

vip00
2010-11-17, 05:13 PM
I am not aware of a class of weapons in pathfinder that are designated as two-handed throwing weapons. This discussion is using the universalist wizard ability that allows you to treat an attack with a melee weapon as an attack with a thrown weapon.

Rixx
2010-11-17, 05:17 PM
I'd rule that it does work, but take a full round action to do. You're usually going to be better off making a charge, but this is a handy ability for when that's not an option (and you're within 30 feet of your opponent).

El Dorado
2010-11-17, 05:45 PM
Attack action is also a standard action (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#attack). That would prevent you from using overhand chop and hand of the apprentice in the same round.

Keld Denar
2010-11-17, 07:13 PM
No. A standard action can be an attack action, but an attack need not always be a standard action. A full attack is several attack actions strung together. A charge is an attack action made at the end of a full round action. Attack actions are like, sub-actions. All attack actions really means is the choice between making an actual attack and using a pseudo-attack like a trip, sunder, grapple, etc attempt.

Not every rectangle is a square, even if the reverse is true.

vip00
2010-11-17, 07:38 PM
No. A standard action can be an attack action, but an attack need not always be a standard action. A full attack is several attack actions strung together. A charge is an attack action made at the end of a full round action. Attack actions are like, sub-actions. All attack actions really means is the choice between making an actual attack and using a pseudo-attack like a trip, sunder, grapple, etc attempt.

Not every rectangle is a square, even if the reverse is true.

No.

As you can see here (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/rules/archives/chargingWithAVitalStrike&page=1#22), Jason Bulmahn, lead designer of Pathfinder explains it in more detail. "...an attack action, which is a type of standard action."

In his words, an attack action is a type of standard action. Therefore, Davester is correct and you cannot both take an attack action (standard action) to satisfy the overhand chop requirement and activate the hand of the apprentice ability (standard action) in the same round.

Thank you, Davester.

Keld Denar
2010-11-17, 09:18 PM
I blame pathfinder for doing something as dumb as redefining attack action, and then not writing that definition down anywhere. In the absense of such a rule, I was going off of 3.5's definition of an attack action. By 3.5, I'm correct. By PF, I'm not, apparently. Basically, from what I've gathered, attack action is interchangable with standard action in all cases, and melee attack is the new term for 3.5's "attack action".

Its nice to know that the folks at pathfinder were busy doing important things like redefining attack action in a way that makes it MORE complicated, instead paying attention to more important things...like editing. Or balance.

WinceRind
2010-11-17, 09:26 PM
Not to be rude, but isn't two-handed weapon throwing supposed to suck? It's like saying melee damage with bows sucks. Two-handed melee weapons are really not meant to be used that way, therefore it sucks when you do it that way.

If you're an Exotic Weapon Master, you can REALLY lob a Fullblade at someone...

Reynard
2010-11-17, 09:33 PM
Somehow, no Bloodstorm Blade reccomendations?