Building a Monk - ideal racial choices?

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Warning: I've already decided I wanted to play a Monk. This is not asking for help building a 'monk-like character' or why I should play another class instead. There are a few things that appeal to me about playing a Monk (all good saves, the ability to be 'armed' and 'armored' wearing nothing but a toga, the fact that they can outrun just about anything, and so forth), and I'd rather not try to 'fix' it by multiclassing, for example :)

OK, now that that's out of the way.. A friend of mine has been bugging me about playing D&D but we don't exactly have a group, so I've decided to toss together a character so we can 1v1 each other, just for something to do. She's playing a Catfolk Battle Sorcerer\Stalwart Sorcerer and we've plotted it out to look something like this: Battle\Stalwart Sorcerer (http://www3.sympatico.ca/eleibrock/DnD/SorboGen.txt). She happened to roll rather good stats - I believe she doesn't have a score lower than 15, and has ended up with at least 1 20 after racial adjustments. I on the other hand rolled up some much less exciting scores: 12, two 13s, and three 14s. As Catfolk (Races of the Wild) is EL2 (one hit die and +1 LA), I'd like something comparable for taking her on. I'm hoping the mobility of the character will help. Any suggestions for a race would be greatly appreciated.

[turkishproverb]

Dwarves make decent Monks.

[NineThePuma]

Humans are the best monks EVER, but if you're discarding that, I'd go Goliath. Yes, it's weird, but you can turn yourself into a pretty fierce grappler.

[Keld Denar]

About the best 0 LA races you can pick would be Dwarf and Human. Human's have the bonus feat, and if you pick your feats wisely, thats a great boost. Dwarves have a bonus on Con, a vital monk stat, and a penalty to Cha, a monk's only dump stat. A monk's bonus move speed counters the dwarf's normally slow speed.

Really, as much as you said you don't want something else, all the things you say you want from a monk (except all good saves), you get from unarmed swordsage (ToB) as well, and you can even fake a good fort save with the Mind Over Body manevuer...

Not sure if you'd considered that option, so I figured you could just ignore it if you want. If you do look into it and like it, then it'll be worth it.

[Eldariel]

Depends on how many sources you're working with. Honestly tho? You'll prolly need to focus on something if you want to win so e.g. Water Orc could be a decent choice. Costs you -2 Wis (and Int and Cha of course), but for +4 Str and +2 Con. Lesser Aasimar [PGtF] would have +2 Wis with no real downside, so that's a consideration. Human is probably better though.

Half-Minotaur [DR313] Human could be excellent if Dragon Magazine templates are allowed; it's Level Adjustment +1 and has +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis. Oh, and 2 points of Natural Armor and all the normal Human goodies. And you'd be Large (this is ignoring certain editing error that states you'd get normal size increase changes out of it; obviously you don't 'cause that's stupid).


Really, if you're trying to win, I'd go Half-Minotaur. It gets you basically everything you need in spades; size (and thus damage dice + reach), strength, durability and your key AC stat. You miss out on Dex bonus but hey, c'est la vie; becoming large rarely makes you nimbler.

[The Shadowmind]

I might of missed it, but what level are you playing at?
And catfolk is an adjustedment of ECL+1, for races with only a single racial hit dice, you replace that with class levels. You only need to take the racial hit dice if it is more than one.

[Bayar]

Warning: I've already decided I wanted to play a Monk. This is not asking for help building a 'monk-like character' or why I should play another class instead. There are a few things that appeal to me about playing a Monk (all good saves, the ability to be 'armed' and 'armored' wearing nothing but a toga, the fact that they can outrun just about anything, and so forth), and I'd rather not try to 'fix' it by multiclassing, for example :)

OK, now that that's out of the way.. A friend of mine has been bugging me about playing D&D but we don't exactly have a group, so I've decided to toss together a character so we can 1v1 each other, just for something to do. She's playing a Catfolk Battle Sorcerer\Stalwart Sorcerer and we've plotted it out to look something like this: Battle\Stalwart Sorcerer (http://www3.sympatico.ca/eleibrock/DnD/SorboGen.txt). She happened to roll rather good stats - I believe she doesn't have a score lower than 15, and has ended up with at least 1 20 after racial adjustments. I on the other hand rolled up some much less exciting scores: 12, two 13s, and three 14s. As Catfolk (Races of the Wild) is EL2 (one hit die and +1 LA), I'd like something comparable for taking her on. I'm hoping the mobility of the character will help. Any suggestions for a race would be greatly appreciated.

And you want to use these scores on a monk versus a catfolk battle/stalwart sorcerer ?

Makes me wonder why you guys didn't do a Point Buy to make it more fair (although you would still come second best there).

I would suggest Goliath but seeing as this is only a level 2 duel, a LA 0 race is better so you can get evasion. Dwarf is a good idea.

[grimbold]

ask your dm if you can play a PF half-orc and get a wisdom bonus.
otherwise dwarves or humans are pretty good.
or for the worst core-character ever may i suggest HALF-ELF!

[Rasman]

ok, I've played a LOT of monks, I LOVE the class and splat books and supplements and alternate class features make them even more awesome.

The MOST effective Monk I've ever played was a Half-Dragon Human Monk.

It's only +2 LA and you get some WICKED stat bonuses.

+8 Str, +6 Con, +2 Int and +2 Cha, the Cha you don't really care about...but...+8 Str, that's +4 to hit for 2 levels and 4 extra damage per punch...that REALLY adds up. Not to mention you gain a breathweapon and Immunity to your breath type. +4 Nat Armor and Darkvision 60'. Did I mention that you get wings and can fly at twice your land speed...you...get...fast...

If you're allowed to take material from other books, see if you can get Improved Grapple and Greater Grapple feat chains. You can LITERALLY fly by, grab an enemy, fly straight up and let go as a free action ALL in one move.

To make it even BETTER, you take an alt class feature from the Pathfinder Advance Players Guide, think of it as PHBII, called Monk of the Four Winds. Instead of Stunning Fist, you get Elemental Fist, which when used, deals an extra 1d6 Fire, Ice, Electric or Acid damage, your choice, and with a MotFW, it scales with your level. At 12th level, you "Time Stop Light" also known as, I spend 6 Ki to take 3 standard actions, which are only limited by the fact that they can't be FULL ATTACK ACTIONS. What's that? You can FLY at super speeds and and grab 2 enemies and drop them from 70' up...or one enemy from 140' AND breathe your breath weapon on him? That's HORRIBLE!

Half-Dragon will make you UBER mobile and HIGHLY effective at a, TECHNICALLY, Higher BAB than a Human or Dwarf Monk would have at your level.

[Boci]

The MOST effective Monk I've ever played was a Half-Dragon Human Monk.

It's only +2 LA and you get some WICKED stat bonuses.

That's CR, the LA is +3.


TECHNICALLY, Higher BAB than a Human or Dwarf Monk would have at your level.

Higher attack bonus, not Base Attack Bonus. There's a difference.

[Cespenar]

{Scrubbed}

[Sinfonian]

ask your dm if you can play a PF half-orc and get a wisdom bonus.
otherwise dwarves or humans are pretty good.
or for the worst core-character ever may i suggest HALF-ELF!

Hell, if you could talk your way into PF races, dwarf is STILL a good bet. +2 Con and +2 Wis, along with a bonus to saves vs spells. However, by going dwarf you do miss out on one of the reasons you claim to want to be a monk in the first place (speed).

Edit:
+8 Str, +6 Con, +2 Int and +2 Cha, the Cha you don't really care about...but...+8 Str, that's +4 to hit for 2 levels and 4 extra damage per punch...that REALLY adds up. Not to mention you gain a breathweapon and Immunity to your breath type. +4 Nat Armor and Darkvision 60'. Did I mention that you get wings and can fly at twice your land speed...you...get...fast...

You only receive wings if you are large size or bigger.

[Togo]

Consider whether it's worth dumping wisdom. I know that seems like a weird choice for a monk, but if you're going for grapple feats rather than stunning fist, then all it really does is add to your AC. Dex does the same, and it's more useful for skills and the two-weapon fighting tree.

[Boci]

Consider whether it's worth dumping wisdom. I know that seems like a weird choice for a monk, but if you're going for grapple feats rather than stunning fist, then all it really does is add to your AC. Dex does the same, and it's more useful for skills and the two-weapon fighting tree.

Problem is, then you're like a mage: no armour, and just a single state to AC. Only you're supose to enter melee on a regular bases.

[Reluctance]

We'd need to know general levels and her build. At low levels or low op, you can count on the monk's solid defensive backbone while you whittle her down. If she has spells to give her tactical and/or defensive advantages, you're basically hosed.

The thing about monks is that they have good defenses, and then they're mediocre at everything else. A "good monk" - one who tries to cover everything that a monk can do - will be spread too thin and unable to contribute meaningfully. Your best bet is to focus on one thing that you want to do really well, and acknowledge that other traits will suffer as a result. So while large races with strength boosts are generally a good move, what particular monk shtick would most interest you?

[Killer Angel]

Half-Minotaur [DR313] Human could be excellent if Dragon Magazine templates are allowed; it's Level Adjustment +1 and has +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis. Oh, and 2 points of Natural Armor and all the normal Human goodies. And you'd be Large (this is ignoring certain editing error that states you'd get normal size increase changes out of it; obviously you don't 'cause that's stupid).


..and LA adj it's a minor downside, given that the monk won't have the problem of staying behind the casting ideal progression.

[Runestar]

Problem is, then you're like a mage: no armour, and just a single state to AC. Only you're supose to enter melee on a regular bases.

Why can't the monk wear armour? He only loses his wis mod to AC (which he doesn't have anyways), fast movement and flurry.

Arguably, you can swap out flurry for decisive strike (PHB2 variant), since it doesn't state that it fails to work in armour.

[Boci]

Why can't the monk wear armour? He only loses his wis mod to AC (which he doesn't have anyways), fast movement and flurry.

Not proficient armour (so thats another feat), and if they wear heavier armour they also loose evasion. They can do it, it just doesn't strike my as efficient.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Wow, leave it for a few hours and a flurry of blows responses show up! OK, lemme go through this..

1. Catfolk are indeed 1HD+1LA=EL2, and I mentioned that in the first post:

As Catfolk (Races of the Wild) is EL2 (one hit die and +1 LA), ...
As a result, I know I'm not looking for something equivalent to a PHB class, but slightly more powerful.

2. I didn't do point buy because she had already generated her character long before I came up with this idea. It's just going to be the two of us, so I'm looking at basically DM'ing her in an arena-style setting vs an NPC (the Monk) until we can get more together.

3. The 'shtick' I'm looking at to compensate for my lack of power is mobility. Between not wearing armor and a speed increase every 3 levels, I should be able to outmanoeuver her. Since she's starting off as Catfolk, though, she's already got 10' on most classes. One idea I had in mind was starting off as Nezumi (40') Barbarian (+10') for the first level, switch over to a Cleric with the Celerity Domain (+10') at second level - which gives me time to 'convert' to Lawful from Neutral - and then Monk the rest.

4.
Why can't the monk wear armour? He only loses his wis mod to AC (which he doesn't have anyways), fast movement and flurry.

What a monk 'only loses' for wearing armor is pretty much what a *lot* of people see being the entire reason for playing a Monk to begin with. Flurry is probably #1 on most people's list. If you take those three things away, you might as well just play a stock Fighter or Favoured Soul.

[Psyren]

Buomman (Planar Handbook) are a great choice. +2 to a key stat, -2 to a dump stat, 0 LA.

Neraphim (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2) are also really good. No stat bonuses (or penalties), but you get +2 NA (which stacks with monk AC) and you're an Outsider. Go Tattooed Monk later and you can turn into other Outsiders too.

[GoatBoy]

Feral half-minotaur. Trying to prove that it's balanced will be more fun than the game itself.

[Last Laugh]

I kinda like Githzerai for Monks
1 RHD (which can be switched for monk level?)
+2 LA
Gain +6 dex, -2 Int, +2 wis.
Inertial armor when conscious (+4 AC)
Shatter, feather fall, daze, and eventually (level 11) planeshift as spell like abilities.
Also SR=5+class levels

Instead of plain monk you might want to look into Sacred Fist (Complete Divine) it has monk goodies, full BA, and cleric casting. (the table contradicts the text, you are sposed to use the text when that happens. full cleric in that case)

[Myth]

I'm sorry I couldn't go past the part where you have 12s to 14s for ability scores and decide to roll a Monk anyway.

Arena matches are best done with point buy and equal tier characters. With the current setup you might as well forfeit.

If you are absolutely set on the "class" you should go with a Warforged and you should take Blind Fighting and 5 ranks in Balance, to negate at least some of the spells she can throw at you.

[kestrel404]

Wait, so do you want to play a pure monk or not? Because if you start out Barbarian and then go into other classes first, you're not really going to be very monk-like.

And given your rather lackluster attributes and choice of class, perhaps a heavily-templated and race? This one is gouda-flavored:
Mineral Warrior Feral Dragonborn Incarnate Construct Half-Golem Jermlaine

Race is Jermlaine (MM2, -8 str, +6 dex, -2 con, -2 int, +6 wis, -6 cha, 30' speed, la +0, tiny fey)
Add template: Half-golem (MM2, +12 str, -2 dex, con becomes -, -6 int, +0 wis, -6 cha, +11 natural armor, tiny construct)
Add template: Incarnate Construct(Savage Species, natural armor reduced to +3, any stat which is lower than 3 becomes 3, except Con and Int, which you get to re-roll at 4d6 drop lowest!, type becomes tiny humanoid, all other special abilities go away)
Add template: Dragonborn (Races of the Dragon, -2 dex, +2 con, natural armor goes away, type becomes Tiny Dragonblood Humanoid, gain breath weapon)
Add template: Feral (Savage Species, +4 str, -2 dex, +2 con, -4 int (min 2), +2 wis, +6 natural armor, +10 speed (40'), Improved Grab, Darkvision 60' and fast healing 2 (improves as level goes up!), Type becomes Tiny Dragonblood Monstrous Humanoid)
Add Template: Mineral Warrior (Underdark, +2 str, +4 con, -2 ind (min 1), -2 wis, -2 cha, +3 natural armor (total +9) burrow speed of 20', DR 8/adamantine, Earth Strike 1/day, Type becomes Tiny Dragonblood Earth Monstrous Humanoid)

Your final attributes become:
LA +0
Size Tiny
Speed 40' land, 20' burrow
+10 str, +0 dex, (Reroll con)+8, (Reroll int)-6, +6 wis, cha becomes 1
+9 natural armor
Breath Weapon based on HD, energy type changes at your whim
Darkvision 60'+
Fast Healing 2+
Improved Grab
DR 8/adamantine
Earth Strike 1/day
At higher levels you gain Pounce, Rake and Rend from Feral template, as well as more fast healing and better darkvision

That's pretty much the best race I can put together for +0 LA. No GM will ever accept it, but it's RAW legal. Given that you're playing a Monk vs a Sorceror with better stats, maybe they'll let you play this so you can challenge the Sorc.

Hope that helps.

[Myth]

And anything dealing Cha damage drops you on Round 1.

[kestrel404]

Stats can't go below 0. Dip binder and bind Naberius.

[Boci]

Stats can't go below 0.

True, but they can go to 0.

[Tael]

What you describe is achieved by a Monk 2/Unarmed(and Unarmored) Swordsage X.

The only difference is that you're awesome. :smallwink:

Also, If your opponent is even a remotely good optimizer or player, you have practically no chance of winning. Straight monk vs. Abjurant Champion Sorc? At level 20?!? Yeah, it's not gonna happen.

[kestrel404]

True, but they can go to 0.

Hence the other part - Bind Naberius. Your stat heals from 0 to 1 on your turn, and you're not disabled anymore. There are still spells that will put you down, and ability drain (rather than damage) is a killer, but if you're going to worry about save or die spells and abilities then you're talking about an entirely different set of problems.

[Tael]

Wow, leave it for a few hours and a flurry of blows responses show up! OK, lemme go through this..

1. Catfolk are indeed 1HD+1LA=EL2, and I mentioned that in the first post:

As a result, I know I'm not looking for something equivalent to a PHB class, but slightly more powerful.


Again, you replace the racial hit dice if the race only has 1 RHD. You do NOT take the racial hit dice for Catfolk.

[dsmiles]

How high do you want to go EL wise? Maugs (FF) are 2RHD+3LA constructs (with all attendant immunities) that have bonuses to all of their stats (except CON, which constructs don't have), and fast healing.

[The Glyphstone]

How high do you want to go EL wise? Maugs (FF) are 2RHD+3LA constructs (with all attendant immunities) that have bonuses to all of their stats (except CON, which constructs don't have), and fast healing.

He is level 2, I believe. So that's out of the question.

And while Swordsage is awesome...when the Op specifically calls out in his post that he's not interested in hearing about why he should play another class, can we please actually respect that statement?

[dsmiles]

He is level 2, I believe. So that's out of the question.

Maugs still make awesome monks. :smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

Maugs still make awesome monks. :smalltongue:

Indeed they do, but not this particular monk.:smallfrown:

I'd suggest Goliath myself, and go for a Grappler build. At this level, the Sorc won't have Freedom of Movement, and since it's not a Wizard, it can't get Abrupt Jaunt.

[Tael]

He is level 2, I believe. So that's out of the question.

And while Swordsage is awesome...when the Op specifically calls out in his post that he's not interested in hearing about why he should play another class, can we please actually respect that statement?

Where is level 2 coming from? The only reference to level I saw was his opponent, who is level 20.

As to the SS part, it really does fulfill everything he wants about a monk. With a 2 level dip in monk, you have FoB, great saves, ect. And by continuing SS you just get better at being unarmed and unarmored, and SS has a lot of movement related maneuvers.

[Erom]

And while Swordsage is awesome...when the Op specifically calls out in his post that he's not interested in hearing about why he should play another class, can we please actually respect that statement?
And then he went on to say that he was thinking Barbarian 1/ Cleric 1/ Monk X which would seem to indicate he is willing to dip some other classes, so suggesting what classes to dip seems fairly reasonable to me.

[dsmiles]

I've never used a Goliath, in any capacity, so I can't speak on their strengths/weaknesses, but I have played both Human and Dwarven monks to great effect. I have also played a Half-Orc Paragon 3/Human Paragon 3/Reaping Mauler 10/Chaos Monk (x). That was fun.

[Keld Denar]

If you don't mind being a slobbering, flesh hungering abomination of nature, Gravetouched Ghoul from Libris Mortis would make a decent monk. You lose Con, so thats a place for you to put one of your low stats. You get a claw/claw/bite routine which you can make on top of your UAS routine, all at -5 from your max AB, and all of your attacks have a chance to paralyze, which is GOLDEN. Simply make as many hits as you can, damage doesn't really matter, just land hits. It is a +2 LA though, but the stat mods are pretty awesome and the abilities are killer.

[The Glyphstone]

Where is level 2 coming from? The only reference to level I saw was his opponent, who is level 20.

As to the SS part, it really does fulfill everything he wants about a monk. With a 2 level dip in monk, you have FoB, great saves, ect. And by continuing SS you just get better at being unarmed and unarmored, and SS has a lot of movement related maneuvers.

That's absolutely true. SS is Monk^awesome. But ToB already has a 'reputation' for being shoved down peoples' throats as The Bestest Thing Evar, deserved or otherwise. And when the OP specifically and deliberately, in the second sentence of his post, says he doesn't want to hear about alternative classes instead of monk, people who simply post 'play a swordsage' seem to be deliberately ignoring the OP to plug ToB, which feels rude.

[dsmiles]

And when the OP specifically and deliberately, in the second sentence of his post, says he doesn't want to hear about alternative classes instead of monk, people who simply post 'play a swordsage' seem to be deliberately ignoring the OP to plug ToB, which feels rude.

There's more than a feeling (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcsVPis1iNs) of rudeness there. It's the real thing. It is absolutely rude to ignore what the OP specifically states in order to plug something that the OP specifically doesn't want.

[Tokuhara]

I suggest this combo for lv20:

Race: Half-Sand Dragon Strongheart Halfling (3LA)
Class: Halfling Monk 6/Initiate of Dragonic Mysteries 9/Fist of the Forest 2
Other Feats: Superior Unarmed Strike, Yondolla's Favor (WIS to Initiative)
This way you have:


A great BW
Skirmish
Unarmed Strike upgrades 3 dice sizes

[The Shadowmind]

How about a Spellwarped Human, +3 LA, since I think you are using LA buyoff(because of the 20 level build, while having 1 LA).
You get Str +4, Dex +2, Con +4, Int +4, and some other minor abilities, and a type change to aberration.
Then you want to go into the Tattooed monk PrC for the chameleon tattoo.
A level dip into cloistered cleric for knowledge,animal,and travel devotions is good for enabling the ability to fly, buff speed or attack, full attack while moving, and have an alternate attack.

[dextercorvia]

Template Velveeta

IIRC Feral is an inherited template and, as such, can't be applied after an acquired template like Incarnate Construct or Dragonborn.

[Aquillion]

3. The 'shtick' I'm looking at to compensate for my lack of power is mobility. Between not wearing armor and a speed increase every 3 levels, I should be able to outmanoeuver her. Since she's starting off as Catfolk, though, she's already got 10' on most classes. One idea I had in mind was starting off as Nezumi (40') Barbarian (+10') for the first level, switch over to a Cleric with the Celerity Domain (+10') at second level - which gives me time to 'convert' to Lawful from Neutral - and then Monk the rest.For that level of Barbarian? Make it Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, from Complete Champion. This gives you Pounce instead of the movement bonus. Yes, yes, I know you wanted it for the movement bonus, but listen to me: If you want to substitute mobility for defense, you need Pounce, otherwise you're never going to be able to apply your flurry of blows (because you need a full attack to use it, and without Pounce you can't full attack on a charge.)

Ok, I know you didn't want "play this instead" help, but this is a very minor change and will make you massively better at what you want, while still letting you play the actual Monk class just as much as you were planning to before.

It's not a big shift, since you were planning on going Barbarian for a level anyway (with the required alignment change), and it will help you much, much more as a Monk than any race would.

EDIT: Wait, I missed the fact that you're a Catfolk. Are you planning on taking the Catfolk Pounce feat from Races of the Wild instead? That does require that your target be flat-footed, so you need a way to ensure that will happen...

Basically, the big issue that mobile monks have is that you can't full attack (required to use your Flurry of Blows) in the same action than you move. So if you try to do hit-and-run tactics, you'll run up to the monster, make one attack, and then they'll clobber you before you even get your Flurry of Blows off once.

[Bayar]

The sorcerer is a Catfolk. OP wanted our help to find an optimum race for his monk.

[Aquillion]

Oh. Right. Definitely Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, then.

The extra +10 move speed won't help you if you can't get your flurry of blows off on a charge!

[Keld Denar]

There's more than a feeling of rudeness there. It's the real thing. It is absolutely rude to ignore what the OP specifically states in order to plug something that the OP specifically doesn't want.

If you look at the way I phrased MY suggestion, I went from the angle that not everyone even KNOWS about ToB. OP looks to be newish around here, which is fine, but in that newness there is the implied thought process that he may not know about all of his options. Swordsage is EVERTHING a monk is, except for the name, and even fits all of the criteria that the OP stated that he liked about the monk class. Since he didn't say "I know about swordsages and I don't want to play one", its entirely possible that he doesn't know the virtues of the class.

If one suggestion of "play a swordsage instead" lands on receptive ears, its worth more than a thousand ignored comments, IMO.

Plus, its the internet. As with everything else on it, you are free to take what you want and ignore what you don't. Its not like we are really wasting his time and money given that the advise is free.

[kestrel404]

Oh yeah, if you're going to take 1 level in Barbarian, you might as well take 2 for uncanny dodge. The Catfolk Pounce feat only works against flatfooted opponents!

[Boci]

Oh yeah, if you're going to take 1 level in Barbarian, you might as well take 2 for uncanny dodge. The Catfolk Pounce feat only works against flatfooted opponents!

Not much worry against a sorceror.

[Keld Denar]

Well, it is a battle sorcerer. She could cast Blade of Blood and pounce on him for some decent damage. Or similar buff/attack routine.

Thats assuming they might attack each other, which the OP never stated might happen.

[erikun]

Might I suggest the Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants) as an option? Powerful Build grants a large die size for unarmed attacks, along with the +4 size bonus to grappling without actually increasing the character's size. The psionic power Expansion will also help out with what you have planned, either from a feat of prestige class.

[Keld Denar]

While Powerful Build allows you to wield larger weapons, it doesn't make your UAS (or any other natural weapons) count as any larger. This is a decent houserule, one that one of my DMs uses for my Half-Giant Tashalatoran, but it IS a house rule.

[erikun]

While Powerful Build allows you to wield larger weapons, it doesn't make your UAS (or any other natural weapons) count as any larger. This is a decent houserule, one that one of my DMs uses for my Half-Giant Tashalatoran, but it IS a house rule.
That's an odd interpretation, although I can see what you mean.

I also note that it is in direct conflict with the "Monks are not proficient with their fists" interpretation of RAW - the interpretation that Monks take a nonproficiency penality because unarmed strikes are on the weapons table, yet are not one of the weapons listed in the Monk's proficiencies.

Ah, the absurdity of overanalyzation. :smalltongue: I don't think a DM would prevent Powerful Build from applying to a Monk's UAs, but it's worth checking just in case.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

The optimal race to play a monk is Samuel L. Jackson. Yes, Samuel L. Jackson counts as a race unto himself. I hear he has an insane LA, though.

[Psyren]

The optimal race to play a monk is Samuel L. Jackson. Yes, Samuel L. Jackson counts as a race unto himself. I hear he has an insane LA, though.

Mine would be Jason Statham :smallamused:

(He'd also be a TashWar but yeah)

[Quietus]

If you look at the way I phrased MY suggestion, I went from the angle that not everyone even KNOWS about ToB. OP looks to be newish around here, which is fine, but in that newness there is the implied thought process that he may not know about all of his options. Swordsage is EVERTHING a monk is, except for the name, and even fits all of the criteria that the OP stated that he liked about the monk class. Since he didn't say "I know about swordsages and I don't want to play one", its entirely possible that he doesn't know the virtues of the class.

If one suggestion of "play a swordsage instead" lands on receptive ears, its worth more than a thousand ignored comments, IMO.

Plus, its the internet. As with everything else on it, you are free to take what you want and ignore what you don't. Its not like we are really wasting his time and money given that the advise is free.

I think the point being made was that when the OP goes "I'm not looking to play some other class, I want to play a Monk, period, this is what I want advice for, not other classes", the correct response is NEVER "Oh, he didn't specifically call out swordsage as not being an option, so ..hey, play a swordsage!".

It's also annoying when you DO specifically say in your OP that "Hey, I want advice for a monk, SWORDSAGE IS NOT AN OPTION TOB IS NOT USED", people will go "A swordsage with XYZ can do that better, why aren't you using ToB, it's stupid to ban such an amazing book blah blah blah" - but that's a personal soapbox, and unrelated to this thread.

[Keld Denar]

Like I said though, the other side of the coin might be that he simply isn't aware. He said he didn't want to multiclass or use a different class because he likes a monk's ability to do X, Y, and Z. Swordsages also do X, Y, and Z, plus A, B, C and Q. If he wasn't aware of swordsages, or ToB in general, and this recommendation causes him to look into it, and like it, and he ends up playing it and enjoying it more than a vanilla PHB monk, then I'll have contributed to that enjoyment. If he was aware of it and simply didn't want to play it, he'll ignore my post and nothing will have been lost. Its not until other people step in on the OPs behalf and argue a stance which he may or may not hold, that things get mucky. By arguing against me, you are weakening your own point. Just ignore it.

And some people who say "I don't want to use ToB", say so due to an inaccurate representation they may have heard. Sometimes, a hammer really is the proper tool for the job, but because they heard that hammers are heavy, they are trying to pound in a nail with a screwdriver. In reality, not all hammers are heavy, so to speak, but the poster might not know that. Again, if one person is converted and ENJOYS that conversion, then that is worth more than a thousand ignored comments elsewise.

[Quietus]

The problem here is that I'm reading your post and seeing "No matter what objection you make, I can justify giving advice that was specifically called out as not being wanted". If someone says they don't want to hear about ToB, then.. they probably don't want to hear about ToB. It's incredibly rude to go around assuming that people who say they don't want to hear "Monks suck, play a swordsage" in their Monk character advice thread are Doing It Wrong.

[Keld Denar]

The problem here is that I'm reading your post and seeing "No matter what objection you make, I can justify giving advice that was specifically called out as not being wanted".

Welcome to the internet. We have cookies.

EDIT to add relevant content: Nobody is flaming the OP say "hey dummy, you are doing it wrong". NOBODY. All suggestions above were made respectfully. If they weren't, there would be little red scrubby marks all over. The only person who is taking insult here is you. Which leads me to the question...why? Why are you taking insult on behalf of the OP, who may or may not actually be offended?

[Tokuhara]

Having fiddled with cool-ness, I suggest:

Race: Kalashtar (lots of velveeta-y goodess)
Class: Monk 7 (use Kalashtar Monk racial substitution classes)/Psi-Warrior 5/Fist of Zouken 8
Feats: Talashatora

This way, you are a psychic juggernaut with truckloads of psionics, fists of death, and lots of racial feats to play with. You can literally screw 1 PP to add +1 to grapple (not for you) or Stunning Fist (definitely for you) rolls. Combo this with Stunning Master and Monk's Spade and you suddenly can Stunning Strike a 1d8/1d8 on some sorry punk!

[Urpriest]

OP, could you clarify something? You commented earlier that you wanted the character to be an NPC in an arena setting. Does that mean you want a character of ECL 2 (to be in the same party as the catfolk character) or CR 2 (to be an appropriate challenge for the catfolk character)?

[The Glyphstone]

Having fiddled with cool-ness, I suggest:

Race: Kalashtar (lots of velveeta-y goodess)
Class: Monk 7 (use Kalashtar Monk racial substitution classes)/Psi-Warrior 5/Fist of Zouken 8
Feats: Talashatora

This way, you are a psychic juggernaut with truckloads of psionics, fists of death, and lots of racial feats to play with. You can literally screw 1 PP to add +1 to grapple (not for you) or Stunning Fist (definitely for you) rolls. Combo this with Stunning Master and Monk's Spade and you suddenly can Stunning Strike a 1d8/1d8 on some sorry punk!

Don't forget that FoZ 8 lets you punch people into the future.:smallbiggrin:

[Leon]

Dwarf is always good
Draconic Dwarf is better (+2 Str, +4 Con, +0 Cha. +1 NA, assort bonuses to saves, claws)

[Quietus]

Welcome to the internet. We have cookies.

EDIT to add relevant content: Nobody is flaming the OP say "hey dummy, you are doing it wrong". NOBODY. All suggestions above were made respectfully. If they weren't, there would be little red scrubby marks all over. The only person who is taking insult here is you. Which leads me to the question...why? Why are you taking insult on behalf of the OP, who may or may not actually be offended?

I'm not saying that you told the OP he was doing it wrong. I'm telling you how I view what you said. Where you said "If they specifically say they don't want ToB advice, I give it anyway because they might have the wrong idea", I find that incredibly disrespectful - you actively assume that anyone who doesn't enjoy/use a particular tool that you like, isn't making an informed decision, that they - at BEST - are ignorant of the incredibleness of ToB.

I'm not taking insult on behalf of anyone - I'm addressing a pet peeve of mine on these forums, where build advice is always given that was specifically asked to be avoided. From the people who refuse to read the OP and go "MONK! MUST BE SWORDSAGE!", to people like yourself who simply assume that everyone who doesn't use ToB is Wrong in some way, it gets on my nerves because it often derails discussions, much like we've already done. If you want to continue this debate, make a new thread and PM me a link to it, but this will be the last I post on the matter, because I know from experience that the best we can do from here is swirl endlessly around a totally off-topic drain.

[Tael]

A few things to the Monk/Swordsage debate:
1. The OP clearly isn't very opposed to multi-classing, as is seen by how he talks about wanting to dip Barbarian and Cleric. Barbarian and Cleric, both of which are far less 'monkish' than a Swordsage.
2. The OP listed what he liked about the monk, and surprise surprise, that's exactly what a Swordsage does well too.
3. Far more people have suggested Gish/Tash Monks, both of which are less 'monkish' than a Swordsage.

[AslanCross]

Warforged's slam attack, as its only natural weapon, gains a +1.5 Strength bonus from damage. Combined with its ton of immunities and its innate, enchantable armor (which by RAW does not stop the Monk's abilities), it's a good choice. (though you do take a Wisdom hit; I assume you don't care about the Cha penalty)

You could also take the Unarmored Body feat if you really don't like the armor.

[Psyren]

Don't forget that FoZ 8 lets you punch people into the future.:smallbiggrin:

I think you mean Zerth Cenobite :smalltongue:

FoZ is this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm) rather more vanilla lad. (Despite this, FoZ actually has the edge power-level-wise.)

[The Glyphstone]

I think you mean Zerth Cenobite :smalltongue:

FoZ is this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm) rather more vanilla lad. (Despite this, FoZ actually has the edge power-level-wise.)

Sigh. I always get those mixed up....:smallmad:

[Mindstab_Thrull]

OK, apparently there's some confusion..

1. The Sorcerer character that I linked to earlier was an outline of how she would end up after 20 levels, not taking race into account - much like how the PHB lists 20 levels for each class. She is starting as a Catfolk, with one level in Battle\Stalwart Sorcerer. Thus she is starting as effectively second level for XP. I am looking to play a character equivalent to hers in an arena-style setting, with her character against mine. This means I need a character equivalent to a second-level character. It doesn't have to be LA+0, but it seems the choices are either:

(a) Two racial hit dice, no level adjustment, no class levels
(b) One racial hit die (replaced with a class level), +1 level adjustment - such as the Catfolk for the Sorcerer she's playing
(c) One racial hit die (replaced with a class level), no level adjustment, and a second class level.

I'd rather not use option (a) simply because I'd like to start with an actual class.

2. I'm not adverse to some minor 'off-tracking', but the only reason I brought up Barbarian and Cleric (Celerity Domain) at all was the increased speed bonus you get from both. This is one of those funny little things that really appeals to me about the Monk. Just for kicks, look this over..

Race - Nezumi: Base speed 40, EL1
Bbn1: +10', net 50'
Cleric1, Celerity Domain: +10', net 60'
Monk18: +60', net 120'
Feat - Run: Run at 5x speed when unarmored and unencumbered, net 600'.

Now, that being said, even if I go Human Monk20, I still hit (30+60)x5=450' per round, and I also plan on taking Spring Attack somewhere along the line. Pounce also came to mind, and I'd love to be able to move 120' and either make an attack in the middle or full attack at the end. That being said, I'd like to be able to hit 60' relatively quickly - which is why the single dips in Barbarian and Cleric with a Nezumi. Being able to take a move and attack in the same amount of time an opponent needs to take a double move appeals to me. It also means I can move out of range easier and force my opponent to come to me - provoking attacks of opportunity in the process.

Hope this helps clear up some of the confusion.

[Aquillion]

Oh yeah, if you're going to take 1 level in Barbarian, you might as well take 2 for uncanny dodge. The Catfolk Pounce feat only works against flatfooted opponents!It doesn't help with that. Uncanny Dodge allows you to keep your Dex to DC while flat-footed, but as written it doesn't actually prevent you from being flat-footed, so Catfolk Pounce still works on you.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

OK, some quick replies:

1. I'm a weird combination of old-timer and newbie. I'm pretty familiar with what's in the core books and some of the additional WotC D&D books, but other ones I'm not. I've tried flipping through Tome of Battle before, and a lot of it (manoeuvres, for example) hurts my brain trying to figure it out. On the other hand, if you stick me with simply PHB/DMG/MM, I can find a *lot*. I am, however, somewhat familiar with some of the more common 'outside' races and classes, like Favoured Soul and Warforged. But as for the Swordsage, no, I'm not familiar with it. I am, however, familiar with the Monk and really like what he is capable of doing.

2. Kestrel: Half-Golem has +3 to its CR, and the MM2 I found it in was under 3.0 rules. I would suggest that since CR refers to its capabilities for a single encounter (ie as a monster for the party to defeat) and LA refers to how it would play as a character, a CR of +3 or higher is probably realistically at least an LA of +2 or so. This, unfortunately, rules out your otherwise amazing character. :) Pretty much anything with a CR +3 or higher is unavailable.

3. Lion Totem Bbn from Complete Champion looks like an interesting suggestion. I've also come across a feat - I think it's called Two-Weapon Pounce (forget which book) - that seems to allow for something similar. Opinions?

So at this point, the suggested options seem to be mostly classes that give either a Strength or Constitution bonus, or Human. (Also, having flipped through the description for the Monk, I found one entire class-specific use for Wisdom other than AC, and that's that Quivering Palm ability at 15th level. This assumes, of course, no 'non-core' books ie PHB/DMG/MM.)

[Psyren]

So at this point, the suggested options seem to be mostly classes that give either a Strength or Constitution bonus, or Human. (Also, having flipped through the description for the Monk, I found one entire class-specific use for Wisdom other than AC, and that's that Quivering Palm ability at 15th level. This assumes, of course, no 'non-core' books ie PHB/DMG/MM.)

The Stunning Fist save DC is also Wis-based.

Buommans (Planar Handbook) are a 0 LA race with +2 Wis, -2 Cha (your dump stat.)

[turkishproverb]

The Stunning Fist save DC is also Wis-based.

Buommans (Planar Handbook) are a 0 LA race with +2 Wis, -2 Cha (your dump stat.)

just keep in mind, you can't talk.

[Gavinfoxx]

The main issue with monk is that they can't *leverage* their speed to be good at something. They can't run up walls, they can't take really weird routes and still charge, they can't airwalk, they don't get a full attack on a charge, and if they do get to something first, they don't have the durability to manage to stay alive when they are the only character in range of a big baddie.

So... you like mobility and speed, and the idea of being 'ready to go' pretty much naked.

You know what? There's a class in the SRD that does that. It's called the Psychic Warrior.

[Darrin]

just keep in mind, you can't talk.

Which is why you perform the Rite of Rebirth for 100 GP and become a Dragonborn of Bahumat. +2 Con, -2 Dex, and you lose the annoying "Vow of Silence" thing.

[Psyren]

just keep in mind, you can't talk.


Which is why you perform the Rite of Rebirth for 100 GP and become a Dragonborn of Bahumat. +2 Con, -2 Dex, and you lose the annoying "Vow of Silence" thing.

Or better yet, just use psionics (Tashalatora, woo) and you won't ever need to speak. Your psicrystal can be your "voice", or you can take the Communication Mantle for the Missive line, or even Control Sound to turn your Buommi singing into Common speech, or snap your fingers in morse code (or with no pattern at all) and Control that. Your only real limit is your imagination.

Buomman are a great fit flavorwise as well; their favored class is Monk, and their psionics are easily explained by being native to the Astral Plane (like Githzerai/Githyanki are.)

[kestrel404]

OK, some quick replies:
2. Kestrel: Half-Golem has +3 to its CR, and the MM2 I found it in was under 3.0 rules. I would suggest that since CR refers to its capabilities for a single encounter (ie as a monster for the party to defeat) and LA refers to how it would play as a character, a CR of +3 or higher is probably realistically at least an LA of +2 or so. This, unfortunately, rules out your otherwise amazing character. :) Pretty much anything with a CR +3 or higher is unavailable.

Half-Golem is not a playable race. It has no listed LA. But the Incarnate Construct template MAKES it a playable race, and treats that 'unlisted LA' as LA +0 (regardless of the CR, which is a separate system). It's an old TO trick, and one that pretty much every GM bans.

Not that I'm actually recommending the template gouda - I just wanted to post a 'theoretically best' LA +0 race.


3. Lion Totem Bbn from Complete Champion looks like an interesting suggestion. I've also come across a feat - I think it's called Two-Weapon Pounce (forget which book) - that seems to allow for something similar. Opinions?

There are several methods of getting pounce or pounce-like abilities, most of them not nearly as good as the original. Just remember that if you're going to use Pounce, you are charging and cannot use Spring attack. Pounce is MUCH, MUCH better than spring attack, but it's something to remember.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

1. My point regarding the CR was that since it doesn't have an LA listed, the DM should use the CR adjustment as a starting point for any player who wants to make a character based on it. I'm aware they measure different things - one is based on encounters, the other is based on long-term play. The problem with applying Incarnate Construct to a race that has no LA is that you don't have an LA to apply the IC template's -2 to, so you have to give it one - which is why I suggest using the CR adjustment as a starting point. Sure, it's not as accurate as an actual LA, but you gotta start somewhere ;)
(PS: What do you mean by "TO" here? The only abbreviation I can think of with respect to gaming is "tournament organizer", and that's not exactly applicable here. ;) )

2. I'm aware Pounce and Spring Attack do different things, but both of them make good use of having a larger speed. Assume I have a land speed of 60 feet. If my opponent is, say, 20 feet away, I can Spring Attack and move in 20 feet, attack, then move away 40 feet. If my opponent has a movement rate of less than 40 feet (and at least 20 feet), it requires a double move for him to get to me, which means he won't be able to attack back barring charging. On the other hand, if my opponent is 80 feet away, I can use Pounce and double move (with a charge attack), and get a full flurry attack at the end. Since Spring Attack will be relatively easy for me to get, I'm looking for a good method for picking up Pounce. I'd like to keep the Barbarian's extra 10' though; the rest of the abilities don't matter to me so much.

[Keld Denar]

1) You're good here...don't worry. Its an internet suggestion board, you don't have to take every suggestion (PS, TO is theoretical optimization...stuff not really ment to be played, just used in thought exercises)

2) The only problem with that is that Spring Attack dramatically reduces your attack output. Also, combat doesn't happen in a vacuum. You also have allies and NPCs and whatnot around, and spring attacking away will make things focus on foes other than you. Since your attack output is neutered, thats ok. In most situations, its best to just full attack. In the handful of situations where hit-and-run style works...well, its not worth wasting 3 feats for something that is situationally good.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

2) The only problem with that is that Spring Attack dramatically reduces your attack output. Also, combat doesn't happen in a vacuum. You also have allies and NPCs and whatnot around, and spring attacking away will make things focus on foes other than you. Since your attack output is neutered, thats ok. In most situations, its best to just full attack. In the handful of situations where hit-and-run style works...well, its not worth wasting 3 feats for something that is situationally good.

Well, this isn't for a regular dungeon crawl, as I mentioned earlier. This is basically for me vs her in an arena-type setting. So we don't have to worry about other party members or whatnot, just me and her in an 'enclosed open space' (the main area being about 100 feet in diameter).

[Grynning]

Well, this isn't for a regular dungeon crawl, as I mentioned earlier. This is basically for me vs her in an arena-type setting. So we don't have to worry about other party members or whatnot, just me and her in an 'enclosed open space' (the main area being about 100 feet in diameter).

If she's gonna be casting though, you don't necessarily want to get away from her. You gain no advantage by being far away; you'd still be in range of a glitterdust or color spray most likely. Full attacking and knocking her down quickly is your best bet.

If you are required to use LA or at least 1 RHD for whatever reason, combining Barbarian (lion totem) and monk for your ECL 2 arena won't be an option. But for low-mid levels, Pounce Barb 1/Monk 2-6 won't be bad if you have good Str, Wis, and Con. You won't be able to rage while you're lawful though.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

If that feat is still up for debate the feat Kung Fu Genius (Dragon 319) will make you a little less MAD. It replaces all things that require Wis with Int for a monk, so you could make Wis a dump like Cha.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

The only reason I ever considered Barbarian for this initially was simply to get the speed bonus. Once I swapped over to Monk I knew I'd be losing Rage, but for what I had in mind, I didn't mind. Ditto with Cleric, Celerity Domain. Neither are necessary, but again, if I plan on using Pounce and/or Spring Attack, I'd like to end up in a position where if I move away, my opponent has to double-move to get close to me.

[The Glyphstone]

That'll require significant speed, though - and if they can double-move, they can charge.

Spring Attack is a huge trap, and you should avoid it at all costs, because it's a great way to make yourself even more ineffective than usual. A Pouncing Flurry can at least be semi-respectable damage in a certain level bracket, with the Monk speed boost helping ensure that you're not counter-charged or intercepted before you get your charge off, but frequent use of Spring Attack reduces your damage output to minor stings that most enemies will just shrug off rather than chase ineffectually after you. At best, you'd be Pouncing in for a full attack, standing for a full attack from them, then Spring Attacking away next turn to set up a second Pounce - but even that cuts you damage output in half.

[Thurbane]

Warning: I've already decided I wanted to play a Monk. This is not asking for help building a 'monk-like character' or why I should play another class instead. There are a few things that appeal to me about playing a Monk (all good saves, the ability to be 'armed' and 'armored' wearing nothing but a toga, the fact that they can outrun just about anything, and so forth), and I'd rather not try to 'fix' it by multiclassing, for example :)
RESISTANCE...IS...FUTILE :smalltongue:

[Leon]

RESISTANCE...IS...FUTILE :smalltongue:

"if < 1 ohm"

[_flint_]

A deathouched gravetouched ghoul makes for a good monk; the con penalty is made up for by the removal of a con score and the d12 hit dice, the wisdom bonus is nice for your AC etc. , and you have undead traits, a bite and claws that can be incorporated into your flurry of blows, ghoul fever, and paralysis which is helped by the charisma bonus. If your DM uses points instead of dice for ability scores you can have something like three scores 18 or above. The only downside is that you'd have a +3 LA so you wouldn't be advancing too fast.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

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