(3.5) Quick Dervish/Tempest question

[Silus]

Ok, I have a character that I'm tinkering with, mostly with looking at how her character progression will be. And I have a logistics question regarding the combination of the Dervish and Tempest prestige classes:

Dervish gives you Dervish Dance, allowing you to essentially move turning at Full Attack (assuming I read it correctly). It is doubled by One Thousand Cuts, which doubles the attacks you can do during a Full Attack (Along with Great Cleave).

Tempest mostly relies on Two Weapon Fighting and Spring Attacks, and the end class ability lets you attack with both weapons during a spring attack.

So, if you pull off a Dervish Dance, and move between attack, would the Two Weapon Spring Attack from the Tempest kick in, allowing you to do two attacks (Main and off-hand) per Dervish Dance attack (the number of which is doubled thanks to 1000 Cuts)? I think it would, assuming this guess is correct, quadruple the number of attacks you can make while doing the Dervish Dance (Move, Two Weapon Spring Attack kicks in due to the moving and attacking (Attack with Main and Offhand), 1000 Cuts kicks in, allowing another Main and Offhand attack, move, repeat).

Like, is it:
Activate Dance, attack with main hand, move, attack with main and off, move, attack with main and off, continue until you either run out of movement or attacks.

Or like this:
Activate Dance, attack with main, move, attack with main, move, ect. ect.

Also, is that class combination pointless? Seems like it would mesh pretty well IMO.

[Rad]

The main problem with Dervish dance is that it is severely limited (per day) so it's not reliable as your primary attack. I've never really considered tempest to be worth the levels and the requirements.
The combo you described should work, but it is largely because of the wording of Spring Attack that is a bit fuzzy on the action economy.
I'd suggest taking skirmish to improve the damage on a dervish dance. I think that Scout or Swift Hunter are known entries to Dervish.

[Last Laugh]

Dervish dance is a full attack action, while spring attack is an Attack Action. (If spring attack allowed you to mobile full attack it would be wonderful) So I really don't think that you can use spring attack 5-10 times a round (unless you have 5-10 standard actions)

Instead of dervish dance consider taking 3 levels of binder and the Improved binding feat (tome of magic both) to bind Paimon.
You would gain +2 initiative (or +5 hp/+1ac/+1 attack, your choice) from being a binder 2 bound to a vestige.
Paimon gives you a 1/5 rounds attack that lets you attack EVERY enemy you move by (1 hit per enemy per move, no limit on number of attacks)
You also gain +4 untyped bonus to dexterity, whirlwind attack, uncanny dodge, and weapon finesse.

[Master_Rahl22]

I don't think Dervish Dance and Spring Attack work together that way.

Tempest doesn't really give you much if you already have One Thousand Cuts and can Dervish Dance multiple times per day. What are you using as your entry to Dervish? One of my favorite Dervish builds is Warblade 5/Dervish 3/Warblade 1/Dervish 2/Warblade 2/Dervish 5/Warblade 2. You alternate the levels like that so each new level of Warblade gets you higher level maneuvers, and you concentrate on boosts and counters since your offense is primarily handled by Dervish Dance. The best part is at level 20, you have One Thousand Cuts + Girallon Windmill Fleshrip. If you're TWFing, you get 16 attacks and using them on one or just a few enemies can give each one like 8d6 bonus damage. :smallbiggrin:

[Tokuhara]

Hold on...

Doesn't the 9th level Diamond Mind Maneuver work flawlessly with Dervish?

[Last Laugh]

Yes it does. Time stands still works flawlessly with just about everything!

Of course you only get 9th levels at IL 17. So 6 levels of non martial classes. (this could still be plenty fun and you could wind up with full BA and Eternal Blade.)
Something like Warblade5/Dervish 5/Eternal Blade10 This gives you +10 fast move from dervish, +2 AC and Dance 3/day and has an Ilvl of 17.5 (5+2.5+10=17.5)

[Silus]

I don't think Dervish Dance and Spring Attack work together that way.

Tempest doesn't really give you much if you already have One Thousand Cuts and can Dervish Dance multiple times per day. What are you using as your entry to Dervish? One of my favorite Dervish builds is Warblade 5/Dervish 3/Warblade 1/Dervish 2/Warblade 2/Dervish 5/Warblade 2. You alternate the levels like that so each new level of Warblade gets you higher level maneuvers, and you concentrate on boosts and counters since your offense is primarily handled by Dervish Dance. The best part is at level 20, you have One Thousand Cuts + Girallon Windmill Fleshrip. If you're TWFing, you get 16 attacks and using them on one or just a few enemies can give each one like 8d6 bonus damage. :smallbiggrin:

Swashbuckler >.>

Edit: Already played two sessions with it and my character is already pretty well established, so I highly doubt the DM will let me do a class change. And I've wanted to play a Dervish for a while, so.....yeah.....

[Last Laugh]

Swashbuckler >.>
Just remember that Swashbuckler is a 3 level class. Ranger would give you 6+int skills (take it as a first level, way better than 2 hp) and Two weapon fighting at second level. Fighter 2 would give you dodge and mobility.Warblade would be even more Int synergy and if you delay entry to Dervish you could pick up a bonus feat at Warblade 5. Dervish takes 4 'meh' feats to get into (1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th without bonus from fighter/Warblade)

Consider Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz from PHBII they are mid-late game (first one requires BA+12) but give you one more attack on a spring attack. (if you take both you get 3).

Skirmish damage could also be worth looking into. After 5 scout levels you can take Improved Skirmish for +2d6/+2AC with 20ft movement.

As far as help from your team goes Haste is a must. Magic Weapon/Sacred Vestment would help you out too.

Honestly Tempest is a better TWF than Dervish. (Tempest + double hit + Kusari-gama is awesome.)

[Silus]

Just remember that Swashbuckler is a 3 level class. Ranger would give you 6+int skills (take it as a first level, way better than 2 hp) and Two weapon fighting at second level. Fighter 2 would give you dodge and mobility.Warblade would be even more Int synergy and if you delay entry to Dervish you could pick up a bonus feat at Warblade 5. Dervish takes 4 'meh' feats to get into (1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th without bonus from fighter/Warblade)

Consider Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz from PHBII they are mid-late game (first one requires BA+12) but give you one more attack on a spring attack. (if you take both you get 3).

Skirmish damage could also be worth looking into. After 5 scout levels you can take Improved Skirmish for +2d6/+2AC with 20ft movement.

As far as help from your team goes Haste is a must. Magic Weapon/Sacred Vestment would help you out too.

Honestly Tempest is a better TWF than Dervish. (Tempest + double hit + Kusari-gama is awesome.)

To be honest, I was just wondering if the Two Weapon Spring Attack worked with Dervish Dance. If it did, then I'd be looking into taking Tempest and have the character turn into a TWF Dervish. My character's already a Tiefling with two levels in Swash, so I can't really go back and substitute in Ranger or Scout...

[Master_Rahl22]

Have a look at The Dervish Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870778/The_Dervish_Handbook?pg=1). It gives great ideas for classes that work well as entry to Dervish and other fun combos like Skirmish. That's where I found my Warblade 10/Dervish 10 build, and even without being about to grab 10 levels, Warblade or perhaps Swordsage might make good dips for boosts that apply to full attacks.

Tempest isn't bad to add on top of Dervish for the removed TWF penalties, due to the fact that you'll already have all of the requirements so your only cost is the opportunity cost of not using those levels for another class. You could use the Spring Attack bonuses when you're out of Dervish Dances for the day or don't want to use one.

Perhaps you should post your full build. If you aren't already committed to TWF, you could consider being a Power Dancer as mentioned in the guide. Power Attack + Dervish Dance + some way to boost accuracy (Shock Trooper, etc.) = Metric tons of hurt

[Silus]

Ooh, thank you =D