Damage Dealing Unarmed Swordsages?

[Azernak0]

The Warblade, I can totally understand. I have played them to great results. The Crusader, I can also completely understand. Their mechanic took me a little while to fully understand, but they are pretty high on the awesome scale. Swordsages, I just have no idea where to even start. They have so many damn options that it's worse summoning creatures that all have different abilities. Frankly, I am lost.

I am looking to build an Unarmed Swordsage that focus on being a damage factory. Other than adaptive style i have no idea where to even start.

[Runestar]

At lower lvs, I find that a combination of desert wind and tiger claw is both fun and effective, though this rapidly decreases past mid lvs, as fire resistance becomes more common. You also have shadow blade (dex mod to damage) and assassin's stance (+2d6 sneak attack).

[Master_Rahl22]

If you don't want to grapple/trip without the use of Setting Sun maneuvers, one great way to go is to keep your strength around 10 and pump just Dex, Wis, and Con. You then grab the Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse feats so you're using Dex for attacks, damage, AC, initiative, and Dex skills. Pump Dex at every level up and get stat boosting items for Dex first.

One Unarmed Swordsage I built went a different direction. He was a Goliath and had Improved Trip for fun with the Setting Sun throws and went into Shadow Sun Ninja. I used the Swordsage levels to grab mostly non-Setting Sun and Shadow Hand maneuvers, since that's all the SSN has access to. He focused on Setting Sun throws and Shadow Hand everything since it's possibly my favorite discipline. He had the invisibility and teleport maneuvers with fun stances like Child of Shadow and Assassin's Stance.

Either way, you'll definitely want Superior Unarmed Strike as soon as you qualify (I believe at level 6) and you'll probably want Improved Natural Attack from the SRD. Snap Kick is also a very good feat for any character with decent unarmed damage, since you can make that extra attack even after using a strike.

[Boci]

Craven can also be used with assassin's stance, but SA immunity is a problem. Also, could you use a pair of fey craft gauntlets to avoid the need of weapon finesse?

[AstralFire]

Desert Wind never really loses effectiveness if you play in a campaign which doesn't have a tendency to throw a lot of fire resist monsters, I should note. Which can happen in, say, a humanoid-enemy focused campaign.

[Psyren]

Desert Wind never really loses effectiveness if you play in a campaign which doesn't have a tendency to throw a lot of fire resist monsters, I should note. Which can happen in, say, a humanoid-enemy focused campaign.

Mid- to late-game though, what's to stop those same humanoids from doing some research on the guy that's been kicking their asses for several levels?

If it's a ToB campaign, then the baddies know about the 9 swords too... which means they know about Desert Wind style... which means they know what spells/items they'll need to prevent their rectums from being reamed with Xd6 fire damage.

[Emmerask]

You could also use the swordsage only as a dipping class and focus the whole build around unarmed damage progression and a magic using class :smallwink:.

Something like
monk 1/wujen 3/ swordsage 2/ enlightened fist 3/ Jade Phoenix Mage 10/ Swordsage 1

something like 4 attacks with 20d6+30 (unarmed strike damage (with giant size spell) + booster + stance +str and enh) and a touch attack spell should be quite doable

I did not check all the prereqs for the build so there might be some errors ^^

[AstralFire]

Mid- to late-game though, what's to stop those same humanoids from doing some research on the guy that's been kicking their asses for several levels?

If it's a ToB campaign, then the baddies know about the 9 swords too... which means they know about Desert Wind style... which means they know what spells/items they'll need to prevent their rectums from being reamed with Xd6 fire damage.

You can make this argument for a lot of things and, as a DM, if you're taking steps to screw your players without allowing them space to fight back, ehhh.

[Psyren]

You can make this argument for a lot of things and, as a DM, if you're taking steps to screw your players without allowing them space to fight back, ehhh.

I find the notion that every attempt to challenge the players is "screwing them" to be quite odd. If your PC is optimized around fire damage and routinely kicks the enemy's ass, how is having some of the subsequent enemies sport fire resistance out of the ordinary? :smallconfused:

Unless your villains roll the Idiot Ball everywhere, anyway...

[The Glyphstone]

I find the notion that every attempt to challenge the players is "screwing them" to be quite odd. If your PC is optimized around fire damage and routinely kicks the enemy's ass, how is having some of the subsequent enemies sport fire resistance out of the ordinary? :smallconfused:

Unless your villains roll the Idiot Ball everywhere, anyway...

There's a difference. Giving your BBEG and his Dragon Rings of Fire Resistance is fine and logical. Making your party fight nothing but Fire Elementals, Fire Giants, Efreeti, and Red Dragons is not okay, or for the same reason, having the next bunch of ogre bandits they punch out conveniently have decided to cast Resist Energy (Fire) on themselves a few minutes beforehand. If it's internally consistent, it's not out of the ordinary, but there is a point when it turns from providing a challenge to deliberately screwing the PC over.

[Psyren]

There's a difference. Giving your BBEG and his Dragon Rings of Fire Resistance is fine and logical. Making your party fight nothing but Fire Elementals, Fire Giants, Efreeti, and Red Dragons is not okay, or for the same reason, having the next bunch of ogre bandits they punch out conveniently have decided to cast Resist Energy (Fire) on themselves a few minutes beforehand. If it's internally consistent, it's not out of the ordinary, but there is a point when it turns from providing a challenge to deliberately screwing the PC over.

I never suggested that. In fact, Astral Fire's example was specifically directed at humanoids, who could be expected to pick up a ring or amulet if they're being marauded by a Desert Wind master, assuming they have an Int score somewhere above bread and any skill at recon. (At least, the leaders would.)

Not once did I say anything about Efreeti or Red Dragons.
(Also, I said fire resistance, not immunity. I'm not a fan of screwing PCs either, but challenging them is different.)

[The Glyphstone]

I never suggested that. In fact, Astral Fire's example was specifically directed at humanoids, who could be expected to pick up a ring or amulet if they're being marauded by a Desert Wind master, assuming they have an Int score somewhere above bread and any skill at recon. (At least, the leaders would.)

Not once did I say anything about Efreeti or Red Dragons.
(Also, I said fire resistance, not immunity. I'm not a fan of screwing PCs either, but challenging them is different.)

You didn't, but it seems to be fairly common that people do make that mistake. So consider my second example more relevant to your point - there shouldn't be any reason for, say, the random-encounter ogre chieftain to be wearing a Ring of Fire Resistance more than any other energy type. Only plot-relevant antagonists should have the wherewithal and initiative to do said scouting and prepare for their foe's attacks, anything else threatens disbelief.

[Boci]

there shouldn't be any reason for, say, the random-encounter ogre chieftain to be wearing a Ring of Fire Resistance more than any other energy type.

Actually technically you could argue there would be because fire is the most common energy type and the most damaging. So if an NPC had a potion of energy resistence I would roll to determine its exact type, but slant the odds in favour of fire.

[Azernak0]

Thanks for the advice. The problem I am having with Shadow Blade is that it burns a feat and would mandate you to stay in a Shadow Hand maneuver forever basically, or waste a feat completely.

[Keld Denar]

Do note that unlike DR, Energy Resistance is PER ROUND, not per attack. You'll punch through that on your first swing with Searing Blade or Inferno Blade. Yea, you'll have trouble if you try to use the various fireball-like nukes, but the boosts will still kick butt.

So, unless its something like devils or efreets or red dragons that have straight up immunity, you won't lose THAT much damage.

[Boci]

Thanks for the advice. The problem I have having with Shadow Blade is that it burns a feat and would mandate you to stay in a Shadow Hand maneuver forever basically, or waste a feat completely.

You could always use your other stances for out of combat or rare situations, such as scent or the ability to walk through difficult terrain without a penalty.


Do note that unlike DR, Energy Resistance is PER ROUND, not per attack.

I'm not 100%, but I think Rules Compendium changed that.

[The Glyphstone]

Do note that unlike DR, Energy Resistance is PER ROUND, not per attack. You'll punch through that on your first swing with Searing Blade or Inferno Blade. Yea, you'll have trouble if you try to use the various fireball-like nukes, but the boosts will still kick butt.

So, unless its something like devils or efreets or red dragons that have straight up immunity, you won't lose THAT much damage.

That..depends actually. Monsters with innate Resistance to Energy are total/round. Spells like Resist Energy, and the potions/items that grant it to their users, are specifically per attack.

[Psyren]

You didn't, but it seems to be fairly common that people do make that mistake. So consider my second example more relevant to your point - there shouldn't be any reason for, say, the random-encounter ogre chieftain to be wearing a Ring of Fire Resistance more than any other energy type. Only plot-relevant antagonists should have the wherewithal and initiative to do said scouting and prepare for their foe's attacks, anything else threatens disbelief.

Well sure, but you don't need magic rings either. Even the ogre chieftain has a shaman that can cast resist energy. He might be dim enough to need to see you in action first, but a buff would be useful after that.
Then you've got the ranking members of the Thieves' guild, the evil mercenary company you're trying to thwart, The dragon/fiend/dead god cult, the evil king's private army, the rival band of adventurers, the cabal of renegade wizards, etc. All humanoid and all capable of adapting their tactics.

[The Glyphstone]

Well sure, but you don't need magic rings either. Even the ogre chieftain has a shaman that can cast resist energy. He might be dim enough to need to see you in action first, but a buff would be useful after that.
Then you've got the ranking members of the Thieves' guild, the evil mercenary company you're trying to thwart, The dragon/fiend/dead god cult, the evil king's private army, the rival band of adventurers, the cabal of renegade wizards, etc. All humanoid and all capable of adapting their tactics.

Those would be good examples of enemies that should be adapting their tactics, as all of them would know of the PCs, and if they expected to be going head-to-head with the PCs, be prepared. I'm just saying that sprinkling enemies/items (particularly consumables) tailored to hamper your uberPC into random encounters is Doin' It Wrong.

[Keld Denar]

Wow, wierd...yea.

So, either the MM is wrong or the spell is, since the spell says "This spell gives you energy resistance", which is a reference to the resistance to energy special ability. Then it goes on to say how that energy resistance works, which is in direct contradiction to the MM entry.

[The Glyphstone]

Wow, wierd...yea.

So, either the MM is wrong or the spell is, since the spell says "This spell gives you energy resistance", which is a reference to the resistance to energy special ability. Then it goes on to say how that energy resistance works, which is in direct contradiction to the MM entry.

I've always just accepted it, or decided the MM is wrong simply by being outnumbered in # of contradictory primary sources. It could make sense that a creature whose energy resistance is innate would be less resistant than one whose resistance was imposed on them by a magical spell, since we all know magic is hax.

[Azernak0]

Does an Unarmed Swordsage compare to an Armed Swordsage or a Warblade? Not having Power Attack might suck.

[Psyren]

Does an Unarmed Swordsage compare to an Armed Swordsage or a Warblade? Not having Power Attack might suck.

Armed Swordsage is generally accepted to be more powerful. Neither of them can hold a candle to a Tashalatora Psywar (or Ardent!) though - so if you want fists and fury, psionics are the way to go.

[Eldariel]

If you don't want to grapple/trip without the use of Setting Sun maneuvers, one great way to go is to keep your strength around 10 and pump just Dex, Wis, and Con. You then grab the Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse feats so you're using Dex for attacks, damage, AC, initiative, and Dex skills. Pump Dex at every level up and get stat boosting items for Dex first.

One Unarmed Swordsage I built went a different direction. He was a Goliath and had Improved Trip for fun with the Setting Sun throws and went into Shadow Sun Ninja. I used the Swordsage levels to grab mostly non-Setting Sun and Shadow Hand maneuvers, since that's all the SSN has access to. He focused on Setting Sun throws and Shadow Hand everything since it's possibly my favorite discipline. He had the invisibility and teleport maneuvers with fun stances like Child of Shadow and Assassin's Stance.

Either way, you'll definitely want Superior Unarmed Strike as soon as you qualify (I believe at level 6) and you'll probably want Improved Natural Attack from the SRD. Snap Kick is also a very good feat for any character with decent unarmed damage, since you can make that extra attack even after using a strike.

Wisdom-base exists too. Intuitive Attack [Book of Exalted Deeds] with the Insightful Strikes-class feature. Then you just focus on Strikes from those two schools, mayhap use full attack enabling maneuvers like Bounding Assault (if you have Pounce) or so and get Wis to attack, damage, AC & all that. This also makes the Shadow Hand maneuvers relying on saves much, much more usable.

But yeah, Unarmed Swordsage can be built in a dozen different ways. They're definitely excellent regardless. For damage, Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw offer very nice damage dealing options. Stone Dragon isn't all that terrible either, except it can only be used on the ground.

[AstralFire]

I find the notion that every attempt to challenge the players is "screwing them" to be quite odd. If your PC is optimized around fire damage and routinely kicks the enemy's ass, how is having some of the subsequent enemies sport fire resistance out of the ordinary? :smallconfused:

Unless your villains roll the Idiot Ball everywhere, anyway...

I didn't say that. I said, without a chance for the PC to counter it themselves. Offer the PC ways to improve their ability to penetrate fire resistance, for example. There are none for swordsages in canon; but the DM should feel free to help them make stuff up. If the PC knows they are fighting people specialized to fight them, they also should be given room to improve their fighting style to counter these people.

[Psyren]

I didn't say that. I said, without a chance for the PC to counter it themselves. Offer the PC ways to improve their ability to penetrate fire resistance, for example. There are none for swordsages in canon; but the DM should feel free to help them make stuff up. If the PC knows they are fighting people specialized to fight them, they also should be given room to improve their fighting style to counter these people.

I'm fine with that (especially since doing so will probably mean splashing in maneuvers other than Desert Wind.) In all honesty though, they shouldn't really need to - the fire resistance will just keep them from one- or two-shotting certain enemies. It's not like they still won't be contributing.

[Person_Man]

Swordsage really isn't a great source of pure damage. When I played one, I saw it more as just a box of fun toys. Even if you pick sub-optimal maneuvers, you almost always end up dealing respectable damage and pulling off some sort of interesting trick.

[Curmudgeon]

Do note that unlike DR, Energy Resistance is PER ROUND, not per attack.
Not since Rules Compendium, as Boci mentioned. From page 48:
RESISTANCE TO ENERGY

A creature that has resistance to energy has the ability (usually extraordinary) to ignore some damage of a certain energy type each time it takes damage of that type.