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shadow_archmagi
2010-11-18, 07:29 AM
How do they interact?

For instance, an Artificer can cast Metamagic Item to apply a metamagic to a wand at no cost.

Does that mean I can heighten my spells to 9th level?

Psyren
2010-11-18, 09:14 AM
If it's an 8th-level spell, sure you can. (Casting Metamagic Item repeatedly won't let you keep Heightening, as spells do not stack with themselves.)

shadow_archmagi
2010-11-18, 01:26 PM
If it's an 8th-level spell, sure you can. (Casting Metamagic Item repeatedly won't let you keep Heightening, as spells do not stack with themselves.)



A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.


Why couldn't I heighten a 1st level spell into a 9th level spell? I'm pretty sure that's how heighten works.

Animefunkmaster
2010-11-18, 01:40 PM
What Psyren is mentioning is that unnamed bonuses of the same source do not stack. He is saying that the applied feat is a bonus and the spell is the source. Simply saying the spell will not stack with itself.

I am not 100% sure I agree here since the applied feat doesn't fit under the category of numbered bonuses. It would be best to talk to a DM about this since there isn't relevant raw on the topic. Also if you want to waste 8 3rd level infusions to make a lv1 wand a lv9 for a duration of round/lv (minus the 8 rounds it took to cast the spell). I have no problem with that. Seems like a waste of infusions considering all the better metamagic out there.

Zeful
2010-11-18, 01:52 PM
How do they interact?

For instance, an Artificer can cast Metamagic Item to apply a metamagic to a wand at no cost.

Does that mean I can heighten my spells to 9th level?

Heighten doesn't have a cost, it actually changes the spells level, so if your wording in this post is similar to the actual spell description, you can't use it to Heighten anything. Further Wands have a limit to the spell level that can be inside them so if you could heighten the spell inside to 9 the wand would (at best) simply stop working for the spell's duration (I would likely rule more along the lines of erasing the spell inside the wand because it's no longer a spell that can be placed inside a wand; but that's just me).

As for your actual question, free metamagic and metamagic reducers don't generally apply to Heighten spell because it has no cost (just like an ability score of "-" is different from a "0") and the feat itself tells you how it works when it's applied

Psyren
2010-11-18, 02:16 PM
Why couldn't I heighten a 1st level spell into a 9th level spell? I'm pretty sure that's how heighten works.

Because you're casting a spell to do it. Casting the spell repeatedly would just refresh the duration, not stack it.

Zeful
2010-11-18, 02:24 PM
Because you're casting a spell to do it. Casting the spell repeatedly would just refresh the duration, not stack it.

Heighten Spell doesn't work that way! It's inherantly variable, just like Endure Elements. Trying to apply it at all would allow him to specify the level of heightening as part of casting.

Psyren
2010-11-18, 02:32 PM
Heighten Spell doesn't work that way! It's inherantly variable, just like Endure Elements. Trying to apply it at all would allow him to specify the level of heightening as part of casting.

I don't understand your example :smallconfused: recasting Endure Elements doesn't give you additional protection either. Spells don't stack with themselves.

Zeful
2010-11-18, 02:44 PM
I don't understand your example :smallconfused: recasting Endure Elements doesn't give you additional protection either. Spells don't stack with themselves.

Yes, but when casting a spell with a non-random variable, the caster has to supply the variable themselves. Casting a spell to apply Heighten Spell to anything requires that the caster supply the new spell level or he doesn't finish casting the spell.

Psyren
2010-11-18, 02:47 PM
Yes, but when casting a spell with a non-random variable, the caster has to supply the variable themselves. Casting a spell to apply Heighten Spell to anything requires that the caster supply the new spell level or he doesn't finish casting the spell.

Which is fine if he's heightening multiple different spells (just like it would be fine to Bull's Strength multiple party members in succession.) What he is proposing is heightening the same spell through the roof.

Radar
2010-11-18, 02:58 PM
Which is fine if he's heightening multiple different spells (just like it would be fine to Bull's Strength multiple party members in succession.) What he is proposing is heightening the same spell through the roof.
Well yes, Heighten has a variable: "by how many levels you want to heighten the spell". So Heightening a spell from 1st level to 9th is one application of the feat - not eight. So there is no stacking here.

Psyren
2010-11-18, 03:02 PM
Ah I get it now, it's the feat itself letting him do it. Carry on :smallsmile:

Zeful
2010-11-18, 03:04 PM
Thank you Radar.

shadow_archmagi
2010-11-18, 03:15 PM
Heighten doesn't have a cost, it actually changes the spells level, so if your wording in this post is similar to the actual spell description, you can't use it to Heighten anything.

As for your actual question, free metamagic and metamagic reducers don't generally apply to Heighten spell because it has no cost (just like an ability score of "-" is different from a "0") and the feat itself tells you how it works when it's applied

My wording was copy-pasted from the SRD's entry on Heighten Spell.

Here is the exact wording on the infusion, just for completeness's sake.



You temporarily apply a metamagic feat you know to a single spell contained within a spell trigger item. Forthe duration of this infusion, anyone who casts that spell from the item gains the benefit of that metamagic feat. For example, you could imbue a wand of fireballs with the
Empower Spell feat or apply the Maximize Spell feat to the cone of cold spell in a staff of frost.

Radar
2010-11-18, 03:22 PM
Thank you Radar.
I am participating! :elan:

Psyren
2010-11-18, 03:26 PM
Won't that make the wand harder to use though? (For lower-level characters at least.)

dextercorvia
2010-11-18, 03:29 PM
Heighten doesn't have a cost, it actually changes the spells level, so if your wording in this post is similar to the actual spell description, you can't use it to Heighten anything. Further Wands have a limit to the spell level that can be inside them so if you could heighten the spell inside to 9 the wand would (at best) simply stop working for the spell's duration (I would likely rule more along the lines of erasing the spell inside the wand because it's no longer a spell that can be placed inside a wand; but that's just me).

As for your actual question, free metamagic and metamagic reducers don't generally apply to Heighten spell because it has no cost (just like an ability score of "-" is different from a "0") and the feat itself tells you how it works when it's applied

The Illumian Naenhoon ability specifically allows it to pay the "cost" of heightening.

Keld Denar
2010-11-18, 03:33 PM
It won't make it any harder to use. Wands only have one difficulty setting...DC20. The spell only has to be on your list to use it, you don't have to be able to actually cast that level of spells. The DC to emulate the ability to cast spells of a given list is DC20, regardless of the spell level of the spell. This is different from scrolls, which require you have the CL, stat, AND the spell has to be on your list.

Plus, the MM is argueably added AFTER the spell is cast, since otherwise you'd run into min CL issues. A Wand of Scorching Ray has a min CL of 3, because its a 2nd level spell. A Wand of Empowered Scorching Ray has a min CL of 7, since its a 4th level spell. A Wand of Scorching Ray with Metamagic Effect (Empower) applied to it is still only a 2nd level spell at CL3. If Metamagic Effect (Empower) actually made it a 4th level spell, its CL of 3 would be too low and the spell couldn't be cast. Since MM Effect doesn't change the CL, that means that the MM is applied after the spell is cast, but before it has it's effect.

Zeful
2010-11-18, 03:39 PM
My wording was copy-pasted from the SRD's entry on Heighten Spell.

Here is the exact wording on the infusion, just for completeness's sake.I was referring to the infusion, I know what Heighten does. And apparently you can, the language is really wonky though, so you should talk to your DM (or flip a coin if you are a DM).


Won't that make the wand harder to use though? (For lower-level characters at least.)Only for UMD, but the spell has Higher saves and such so it'd generally be worth it.


The Illumian Naenhoon ability specifically allows it to pay the "cost" of heightening.
Good for them, most Metamagic reducers still won't let you heighten a 5th-level spell to a ninth and cast it as an 8th, because they work by reducing the cost of metamagic feats, which Heighten explicitly doesn't have.