Knowledge based class

[Epsilon Rose]

Does anybody know of any good Knowledge based base or PrC classes for 3.5? It doesn't have to be based on the Knowledge skills per-say or even really focused on knowledge in the crunch, but it should have a scholarly/pursuing knowledge feel to it. It can be from homebrew or Official material but I'm trying to avoid a wizard and to a lesser extent classes that have to prepare spells in general.

Thank you.

[Morph Bark]

While this first off should be in Roleplaying, the Core Loremaster has this a great deal to it. Off the top of my head though, I only really know base classes that really have to do with that.

[Admiral Squish]

Well, Archivist fits the knowledge part perfectly. It prepares spells, though.

I agree, this should be in roleplaying.

[Vaynor]

While this first off should be in Roleplaying

The Red Towel: Indeed. Moved to Roleplaying.

[AugustNights]

How tragic... I was really hoping to see a Knowledge Based PrC that didn't seem as boring as the Lore Master.

True-Namers don't prepare spells and do a lot of Knowledgy things.
Monstrumologist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9668220#post9668220)is a very knowledgeable non Spell-caster PrC (ish) made by Vorpal Tribble.
Otherwise you will most likely wind up preparing spells as a wizard.
Archivist is a pretty fun Base class from Heroes of Horror, they're like Wizards, only they do divine magic.

[Eldariel]

Archivist and Factotum are probably the closest. Both prepare spells, unfortunately. It just so happens, in a game where spellcasting is traditionally Intelligence-driven, Knowledge tends to be automatically associated with Knowledge-based spellcasting.

[Rhuadin]

Well there's always the Truenamer, right? It's based on knowing the names of things... and it's not a spell preparation class, or really anything. :)

[Maho-Tsukai]

Cloistered Cleric may be what your looking for. It gets a nice knowledge ability and the knowledge domain as a bonus domain. The only downsideds for you would be A) It's a preparation caster like a wizard and B) Uses Wis as it's casting stat, meaning you have less int then you may like.

[Quietus]

An int-primary Bard could do this well, too. Add in Knowledge Devotion, and you can get some pretty good self-buffing and beatsticking in. Maybe prestige into Swiftblade later if it gives Knowledge skills, or take Able Learner or whatever it's called that'll let you buy cross-class skills at 1 rank; Your max rank will always remain level+3 if you've ever had it as a class skill.

[Psyren]

If the preparation part is what's getting you down, you can be a Psion. Seers are Int-based, spontaneous and have an ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a) that replicates bardic knowledge.

Savants are also int-based but must prepare spells.

You could be a Beguiler (int-based, spontaneous) and PrC into Loremaster or Paragnostic Apostle.

[Dracons]

Be sure to add that knowledge domain feat dealy. The one that allows bonus damage based on skill ranks in various knowledge skills.

[Amphetryon]

Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) mixed with Bardic Sage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantBardicSage) , headed to the Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b) prestige class. Definitely Knowledge-fluff.

[erikun]

The Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm), specifically the Seer, seems to fit your description. If you have access to Complete Psionic, then the Erudite and Ardent (with Knowledge and Communication mantles) fit just as well.

[Epsilon Rose]

Sorry about puting this in the wrong place, I could have sworn I saw similar stuff there before.

Psion or Truenamer would probably be perfect, unfortunately both are disallowed in this campaign.
I was originally thinking of going invoker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153863) but factotum/monstumologist looks pretty interesting. The only things that really worry be about that rout are that we'll be facing a lot of thing that are immune to crits and monstrumologist doesn't stack for IP but both of those could be less of an issue than I think.

If I went that route would it be viable to carry a tower shield and crossbow of some sort and drop the tower shield in-front of me as a form of portable cover when I'm ready to start fighting?

Chameleon looks interesting, except I'm not sure how useful it is, and far more importantly I'm planing to play a gnome.

Edit: I just looked up Paragnostic Apostle and I'd probably want to dip a level in that for the factotum/monstumologist thing.

[Person_Man]

It's worth mentioning that Knowledge based classes and feats tend to be highly inefficient, in that you need ranks in Arcana (constructs, dragons, magical beasts), Dungeoneering (aberrations, oozes), Local (humanoids), Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, vermin), Religion (undead), and Planes (outsiders, elementals).

So if you do go with one, I suggest playing an Intelligence based build. You'll probably also want to look at:

Knowledge Devotion feat: Make a Knowledge check to gain a scaled insight bonus (up to +5 if you can hit 36 or higher) to hit and damage. Complete Champion pg 60.

Lunatic Insight: You are considered trained in all Knowledge Skills, and gain a +2 (untyped) bonus to Initiative and Mind Effecting abilities. Heroes of Horror pg 123.

Trivial Knowledge: Whenever you make a Knowledge check or a Bardic Knowledge check, roll twice and use the better result. Requires that you be a Gnome. Races of Stone pg 145.

Mantle of Second Chances: Reroll one die once per day. No reason you can't have several, and swap them out each combat. 6,000 gp, DMG II pg 269.

Binder: Though Cha based, all you need is one level to get you into the Anima Mage prestige class, which provides full duel vestige/arcane caster progression. This can get you access to some amazing vestiges, like Balam (reroll any die once every 5 rounds) and Dantalion (+8 unnamed bonus on all Knowledge checks).

[Thurbane]

Collector of Stories skill trick (Complete Scoundrel p.85) gives a +5 bonus on Knowledge checks to identify the weakness of monsters.

Paragnostic Apostle (Complete Champion p.94) is a decent Knowledge based PrC - synergizes well with Archivist, and grants Lore ability.

Also, one of the 1st level Dragonfire Adept invocations - Draconic Knowledge - (Dragon Magic p.80) gives a +6 bonus of Knowledge and Spellcraft checks for 24 hours.

The Make Your Own Luck feat (Complete Scoundrel, p.79) allows you to expend a luck reroll to reroll any skill check.

Some items:

Book of All Knowledge (Complete Champion p. 142) can give a +10 insight bonus to a Knowledge check, after persuing the book for 2d4 hours.

Tome of Worldly Memory (Magic Item Compendium p.190) gives a +5 competence bonus to a Knowledge check, after persuing the book for 1 minute 3/day. If you have 5 ranks in the skill in question, it only requires a standard action.

[Dr.Epic]

Loremaster is good.

[Greenish]

Knowledge Devotion feat: Make a Knowledge check to gain a scaled insight bonus (up to +5 if you can hit 36 or higher) to hit and damage. Complete Champion pg 60.Also gets you a knowledge skill of your own choosing as a permanent class skill. Handy if you were missing one.

If you're missing more than one, Education (ECS and others) gets you all knowledge skills as class skills. Tagging it on a rogue gets you a poor man's factotum. :smallamused:

[Epsilon Rose]

Alright, I think I'll be using the factotum/monstumologist/Paragnostic Apostle I described, only I'm thinking of going with a half-orc variant that doesn't get penalties to int (the campaign I'm in uses custom races) and I'll definitely be taking Knowledge devotion and I might try throwing a level of fighter on there. So I guess at this point the question is: any tips on building this thing? I'll be starting at lv7 and low on cash.

[Master_Rahl22]

Duskblade works well as a Knowledge based class. I play mine as an absent minded professor who just happens to be able to kick ass when channeling Shocking Grasp and Power Attacking for full after the Knowledge Devotion check. :smallbiggrin:

[Thurbane]

Yeah, Knowledge Devotion is like the 3rd level feat for a Duskblade. :smallbiggrin:

On a tangent, is there a list of which base classes get all Knowledge skills as class skills?

Adept
Archivist
Aristocrat
Bard
Cleric (Knowledge domain)
Dragonfire Adept
Duskblade
Erudite
Expert
Factotum
Human Paragon
Magewright
Marshal
Psion
Savant
Shugenja
Truenamer
Wizard
Wu Jen

[ericgrau]

A bard crafter or other item crafter could get into loremaster easily enough. Technically even a paladin or ranger could but the pre-req feats are a lot less useful. From there it's only a 2 level dip to get lore plus one of your feats back. The rest isn't all that unique so continuing is purely optional.

[Thurbane]

If the OP is open to homebrew, then he might also be open to 3rd party...you could have an INT based bard using the redonkulous feat Lost Tradition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9406787&postcount=6).

[CyMage]

Yeah, Knowledge Devotion is like the 3rd level feat for a Duskblade. :smallbiggrin:

On a tangent, is there a list of which base classes get all Knowledge skills as class skills?

Archivist
Bard
Cleric (Knowledge domain)
Duskblade
Factotum
Savant
Wizard


You missed at least one. Marshall actually has 'Knowledge(All)' as well.

[Dusk Eclipse]

This has just gave me a silly build idea

rogue 12/whatever (perhaps swashbuckler for Daring Outlaw)

Make sure you have high int modifier a +3 is enough but you may want higher.

Use education to get all knowledges as class skills, and take knowledge devotion.

At level 10 take the special ability Skill mastery on the main knowledge types you would use. at level 10 we are seeing a bonus of 10 (skill mastery)+13 (ranks)+3(int bonus can be higher) so 22 on knowledge devotion is not bad right?

At level 12 we take savy rogue (CS) to take... 11 (or 12) so it becomes 11 (or 12) + 15 (ranks) +5 (a decent int boosting item is affordable at this level) so a 30ish knowledge check to get a good bonus on knowledge devotion.

Combine with sneak attack and TWF for more lulz.

[JaronK]

Archivist and Factotum, either using Knowledge Devotion, is the most obvious example. Factotum is less about preparing spells. A Bardic Knack Bard might work reasonably well too.

JaronK

[Psyren]

You missed at least one. Marshall actually has 'Knowledge(All)' as well.

Also: Psion, Erudite

[ericgrau]

Hmm 1 level dip into marshall to add your charisma modifier to your knowledge checks, in addition to int.

[Epsilon Rose]

Hmm 1 level dip into marshall to add your charisma modifier to your knowledge checks, in addition to int.

That would be nice, unfortunately it along with the rest of miniatures is banned.

[satorian]

You could always be something draconic, take draconic knowledge and then go dracolexi. A bard or sorcerer would do the trick, probably bard for the synergy. Doesn't prepare spells. Loses 1 caster level, but you get A LOT back. You could also, staying with the draconic thing, go with Dragon Prophet from Eberron and take the Io mark.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Your max rank will always remain level+3 if you've ever had it as a class skill.
I was just wondering where this rule appears? Is it just in PHB and I missed it?


You could try Beguiler 5/Prestige Bard 15 with knowledge devotion?

Although this makes your bardic music less powerful it allows you to get up to 8th level spells as a Bard.

Beguiler is from PHB2 and Prestige Bard is from UA.

[Thurbane]

In the section on skills -

Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level + 3.

[Tytalus]

Mantle of Second Chances: Reroll one die once per day. No reason you can't have several, and swap them out each combat. 6,000 gp, DMG II pg 269.


The Mantle was updated in MIC and costs 12k now, which makes swapping considerably less attractive.

[ubergeek63]

Yeah, Knowledge Devotion is like the 3rd level feat for a Duskblade. :smallbiggrin:

On a tangent, is there a list of which base classes get all Knowledge skills as class skills?

Adept
Archivist
Aristocrat
.
.
.


What you guys seem to be forgetting is that barring lenient house rules you can not use primary class skill points to up "dipping class" skills.

I am contemplating a lvl 10 artificer.

At lvl1 I am taking mercantile background (1st lvl only) for buy/sell at 75%, education (1st lvl only) for all knowledge skills as class skills, vulnerable flaw (-1 on AC for another feat), and knowledge devotion.

at lvl3 i will take item familiar for the extra 10% xp and other bennies, one being able to liberalize the invest spell option to invest an infusion that the item can cast on me in a pinch (healing) ...craft wondrous item is free

at 4th extraordinary artisan for another 25% off the creation price...craft homunculus is free ... dedicated wright is 2100gp+180xp and does the rest of my crafting for me and a headband of knowledge (+10 on all six for the knowledge devotion feat) for

(10x10x100(reg price)x(1(1st)+0.75(2nd)+0.5x4(other 4 knowledge))x.25(25% off for mercantile and 25% off for extraordinary artisan from 1/2 price to craft) = 37500/4 = 9375 + 1500xp

for 10 ranks of 6 types of knowledge with the side benefit of being able to start up a college that never loses money even if you are never there (60 knowledge ranks minus 25 minus various modifiers is always a positive number DMGII)

And I do like the hint from elsewhere about buying old party magic at 60% instead of the 50% market rate and selling at 75%, one of the other advantages of mercantile background feat

Dan

[Thurbane]

What you guys seem to be forgetting is that barring lenient house rules you can not use primary class skill points to up "dipping class" skills.
Or Able Learner...

[dgnslyr]

My necromancy senses are tingling. Best let it rest in peace...

[ubergeek63]

My necromancy senses are tingling. Best let it rest in peace...

i have just the cure for that: an energy bow (2d6@+2) with mage bane (2d6@+2) and splitting (x2) even in the hands of a lvl10 that is up to 24d6... that should be enough to scratch the nec itch ... even a that of an out of phase lich for that matter!

[ubergeek63]

Or Able Learner...

nice... i'll do that one instead

[Leon]

Suggestion for WIS heavy Dwarfs is to take the Ancestral Knowledge Feat

[mikau013]

I always liked the dark scholar class myself. Knowledge vibe and some nice book masteries.
Always thought it was a shame some features require a high lvl though, but yeah.