Entangling Exhalation on a Level 2 Dragonfire Adept: Too Powerful?

[theonesin]

So, I like to play powerful characters in tabletop games, but so far I've never really got any complaints about being too powerful. That is, until the first session of a new campaign I'm in.

We're all level 2 (except for the Tiefling Ninja), and I'm playing a Dragonfire Adept with the Entangling Exhalation feat. The setup works well in that I wanted my character to focus more on battlefield control rather than pure damage (the Ninja, outside of some terrible luck, was the one doing the most damage in a single turn). But I wonder if it's working TOO well.

The Ninja player, and even the DM a little (he's new to DMing) complained a bit about the use of the feat in how I can use it as much as I want due to the DFA's Breath Weapon being usable infinitely, though when I was making the character, I didn't notice if it would be too powerful or not, and it wasn't my intention to "break the game".

Is it too overpowered for this level? If so, will things balance out as we gain levels? I just don't really want to be off-putting to the group.

[Kylarra]

It's decently powerful at level 2, throwing around continuous damage and status effects. What's the rest of the party look like? It may just be that you should stick to just breathing on people normally for a level or two.

It's not overpowered by most stretches of the imagination, although a bit cheesy at the levels you're at since it actually increases the damage dealt by your breath weapon (initial halving is mitigated by the additional D6/round).

[mootoall]

Heh, Entangling Exhalation is pretty much a required DFA feat. Just remind them you're filling your party role. I'm assuming you took the Endure Elements invocation? Just remember, you're helping your team out without doing too much damage to your enemies. I'd say it's a perfectly fair feat, especially as Entangle gets less effective as enemies get access to freedom of movement.

[AtwasAwamps]

The ninja player is playing a NINJA. Nothing is going to go his way. It is a powerful set up, but not overpowered by most standards. Just expect your DM to start mixing in enemies with rogue and monk levels soon, though.

[Rasman]

it's a powerful feat, but I wouldn't call it OP...it's not exactly your fault that you're optimized and they aren't

if you're playing with a new DM, then he PROBABLY needs to ramp it up a little bit if he's having that much trouble dealing with you

[Tael]

If the unoptimized Ninja is the one doing the most damage, it's not you, it's them.

[theonesin]

The current party is made up of the Ninja (who is AMAZING outside of combat, as he pretty much auto-succeeds on several skill checks. For combat, he has one setup with some weapon that does more damage on a charge, so he's able to do larger chunks of damage when he has things lined up right), a Duskblade (he didn't do much mostly because his character was getting drunk all the time), and a Fighter who simply had a lot of bad luck with rolls.

My DFA does NOT have Endure Exposure yet (I opted to take Draconic Knowledge first to save on skill points), though I plan on taking it at 3rd level. This did lead to an interesting intro to the campaign where my character tried to burn down a bar, leaving some of the enemies inside (and the Duskblade) entanged so they would have a difficult time getting out (wasn't intended for the Duskblade. The party hadn't officially met yet).

The DM DID almost kill me in the second battle of the session. Due to the above bar-burning, my character actually ran away, and the other party members chased me. This eventually led to a fight against city guards who were looking for me, one of which critted me for 20HP (my character had 25HP). So I do think he's trying to balance things.

[randomhero00]

I don't think its OP. He just needs to throw some ranged enemies that are spread out at you.

[Kylarra]

Well I'd say one session is hardly conclusive enough evidence and if you're still being outdamaged by the ninja, then you're probably not the problem.

[mootoall]

Well, frankly it's not that OP no matter how you look at it, especially at higher levels. Now, when you grab yourself Power Surge so you can grab some metabreath feats, your DM should watch out. Clinging Lingering Widened Expanded Shaped Energy Admixtured Five Fold Breath of Tiamat = end of the world.

[Psyren]

outdamaged by the ninja

It's opposite day already?

[Kylarra]

It's opposite day already?well he is only doing 1D6 per round whereas the ninja gets weapon damage +str, so ... :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

For combat, he has one setup with some weapon that does more damage on a charge, so he's able to do larger chunks of damage when he has things lined up right)I'm curious as to which weapon is that. I doubt ECL 2 ninja has managed to spring for a +2 weapon.

Anyhow, if you keep outperforming the others for a session or two, it's time to consider down-scaling.

[TroubleBrewing]

I'm curious as to which weapon is that. I doubt ECL 2 ninja has managed to spring for a +2 weapon.

Frankly, me too. This sounds like something the DM didn't look too closely at upon character creation, which the Ninja player may or may not have "misread".

[theonesin]

He may have. The DM had us roll for our starting GP, and the Ninja did roll a lot higher than the rest of us.

As far as metabreath feats go, I wasn't sure if I was actually going to bother with them. At least right now, my character can't do much in battle besides using his breath weapon (strength was pretty much my dump stat at 12), so tacking on recharge rounds would leave me with little to do until I get to a level where I can get a good offensive invocation.

[Greenish]

He may have. The DM had us roll for our starting GP, and the Ninja did roll a lot higher than the rest of us.As in 8000+ gp? :smallconfused:

[theonesin]

Not that much, I'm sure. I really don't know remember what the weapon was, unless it's not a weapon and something else entirely.

[Greenish]

Not that much, I'm sure. I really don't know remember what the weapon was, unless it's not a weapon and something else entirely.If you remember/find out, do tell us. I believe the boards would be happy to hear about a mundane weapon that does double damage on charge.

Well, unless he's using lance, but that only works when mounted.

[Tael]

If you remember/find out, do tell us. I believe the boards would be happy to hear about a mundane weapon that does double damage on charge.

Well, unless he's using lance, but that only works when mounted.

Yeah, and charging on a mount kind of defeats the purpose of being a ninja.

[Psyren]

Yeah, and charging on a mount kind of defeats the purpose of being a ninja.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JKY6JCe4zE

[Zergrusheddie]

At level 2, EVERYTHING is overpowered. Things have like 20 HP at the most. A Half Orc Barbarian can do 1d12+12 damage with a single hit. A Rogue does something like 2d6+1 damage. Sleep can take out several enemies instantly. As was mentioned, critical hits are essentially auto-death at this level. A non-raged Barbarian would eviscerate anything with a 3d12+27 critical hit. Even the Duskblade's 1d8+2d6+strength damage is incredibly lethal. At super low levels, you are playing rocket tag.

I would say that Entangling Exhalation is more powerful at low level than at higher levels. You are doing 1d3+1d6 damage a round (before saves), and are lowering their AC, Attack, and Reflex save by 2. At higher level, a -2 is simply not as powerful because it is less of a percentage of the enemies AC or hit bonus. If a Dragon goes from 29 AC to 27, it is less of an impact than if a Ghast goes to 15 from 17. Entangling Exhalation is still awesome at high level, but it just even more awesome at low levels.

I wouldn't worry too much about Entangling Exhalation. I would guess that it is the Ninja player and the DM are mostly talking about the infinite use of Breath. I have seen DM's say that Warlocks were too powerful because of their infinite use mechanic. Some people just don't like 'special' abilities that can be used infinitely.

[Boci]

Even the Duskblade's 1d8+2d6+strength damage is incredibly lethal.

Nitpick: At second level a duskblade doesn't have arcane channeling, so your damage estimate may be a bit off.

[Zergrusheddie]

Nitpick: At second level a duskblade doesn't have arcane channeling, so your damage estimate may be a bit off.

Yes, a second level Duskblade doesn't. A third level does. I thought Arcane Channeling and Combat Casting were reversed. Thanks for pointing that out. :smallsmile:
The end result is still mostly the same. Low level is very difficult to gauge whether something is too powerful. If having Entangling Exhalation is seen as too powerful at that level, than just don't use it until level 3-5. I don't think that is necessary, but it is usually easier for everyone to compromise with the DM if need be.

Best of luck.
-Eddie

[Jair Barik]

Depends entirely on the campaign really. Somebody thought it would be 'fun' to play this character build in a zombie apocalypse campaign. It was vetoed very quickly.

[theonesin]

This campaign is just standard DnD fantasy.

[Urpriest]

This campaign is just standard DnD fantasy.

There's a very very wide range of things that could mean though.

[theonesin]

Well it's only the first session of the campaign, but I'm pretty sure it's not going to be a zombie apocalypse.

[Lev]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JKY6JCe4zE

1. Seishinteki kyōyō (spiritual refinement)
2. Taijutsu (unarmed combat)
3. Kenjutsu (sword techniques)
4. Bōjutsu (stick and staff techniques)
5. Sōjutsu (spear techniques)
6. Naginatajutsu (naginata techniques)
7. Kusarigamajutsu (kusarigama techniques)
8. Shurikenjutsu (throwing weapons techniques)
9. Kayakujutsu (pyrotechnics)
10. Hensōjutsu (disguise and impersonation)
11. Shinobi-iri (stealth and entering methods)
12. Bajutsu (horsemanship)
13. Sui-ren (water training)
14. Bōryaku (tactics)
15. Chōhō (espionage)
16. Intonjutsu (escaping and concealment)
17. Tenmon (meteorology)
18. Chi-mon (geography)


At level 2, EVERYTHING is overpowered.
Not to mention Psi War 1/half-giant 1, use expansion and there you go, a huge sized melee weapon with 10' reach at level 2.

Or, yaknow, aboleth mucus.

[Jair Barik]

While the zombie apocalypse example was my personal experience it can be applied to anything similar. If the GM has an undead heavy campaign planned out the DFA will crush a lot of them with ease. Similarly natural beasts vary rarely have any means of ranged attack and so on.

[Kylarra]

Well it's only the first session of the campaign, but I'm pretty sure it's not going to be a zombie apocalypse.Well... entangling will definitely be useful against the zombie apocalypse, limiting their already slow movement.

[theonesin]

I swear, the DM must have read this thread. Second fight our session tonight had us fighting 4 zombie orcs, CR3.

The Ninja talked a little about my so-called overpoweredness, but in the same sentence, said he didn't care right now, since we needed all the help we could get. And in the same fight, I was knocked to 0HP, but managed to get back up.

Sadly, my character was the only one not to hit level 3, since despite burning down a bar in the first session which resulted in killing several bandits, the DM ruled that I didn't get that XP since I had ran away from the battle (to get away from the bar I just lit on fire, obviously). Though not intentional, I suppose that's one way to "balance" me: keep me at a lower level. >.>

As for what the Ninja's weapon was that I mentioned before, it's something called a Ninja Toe, and it does indeed to double damage on a charge. Apparently it wasn't very expensive either, and supposedly only the Ninja can use it (which the class he's using is some sort-of supported homebrew Ninja).

[Tael]

Ah, Homebrew, that explains it.

[Boci]

Though not intentional, I suppose that's one way to "balance" me: keep me at a lower level. >.>

You could point out to your DM that this means you will be getting more XP because you're lower level than the rest of the party.

[theonesin]

I'll remember that in the future, but I've been rethinking how much XP I gained in the campaign and found that I actually did level up after all (though I'll still be about 300XP behind the party).

Anyway, I have a quick question that a Google search didn't answer. I'm thinking about when I get to level 5 and can pick up Slow Breath. Does the effects of Slow Breath and Entangling Exhalation stack?

[Akal Saris]

I don't think you can have an Entangling Slow Breath, since the entangle effect is intended to replace half of your non-existent damage. However, entangling lasts 1d4 rounds and slow breath lasts 1-2 rounds, so if you alternate between the two there will be rounds where opponents are both slowed and entangled.

By the way, both the ninja and the DM sound like they are over-reacting in my opinion. The DFA is hardly overpowered, entangling exhalation or not, and even if the ninja does less damage than you he's also got a ton of non-combat utility and more defensive abilities than you have. And when you're dealing 1d3+1d6 a round, well, that's not exactly a lot of damage against most foes.

[theonesin]

Well, the description for Entangling Exhalation says that if the breath does no damage, enemies are still entangled, but don't take the ongoing damage. My question was whether or not the effects of being both entangled and slowed stack. For example, both effects lower movement speed, attack rolls, AC, and Reflex (those are the things they share. They have differences too). Would they take both penalties, or only one?

[tyckspoon]

Well, the description for Entangling Exhalation says that if the breath does no damage, enemies are still entangled, but don't take the ongoing damage. My question was whether or not the effects of being both entangled and slowed stack. For example, both effects lower movement speed, attack rolls, AC, and Reflex (those are the things they share. They have differences too). Would they take both penalties, or only one?

Both. They're different effects from different sources; there's no way they can conflict with each other (because as much as some people cling to the idea, there is no rule that says penalties don't stack with each other as long as they're otherwise in compliance with the general stacking rules.)

[Lev]

Ah, Homebrew, that explains it.

Yeah I was trying to look it up and while doing so I was also trying to figure out how a breath weapon could "entangle".

Dragon snot sneeze?