(3.5) Well-rounded melee warrior

[Jeivar]

What class or class build is generally considered to be a competent fighter without any particular weaknesses or excessive specialization? I'm thinking of a 7th level character here. Rogue, warrior, fighter, whatever, I'd just like to get some opinions.

[Amphetryon]

What class or class build is generally considered to be a competent fighter without any particular weaknesses or excessive specialization? I'm thinking of a 7th level character here. Rogue, warrior, fighter, whatever, I'd just like to get some opinions.

What books do you have available?

I assume 'Cleric' and 'Druid' are not the answers you want...

[Person_Man]

Most full casters, any Tome of Battle class, Psychic Warrior, Totemist, Incarnate, or Binder. The key is that you need a set of well scaled powers - magic, maneuvers, soulmelds, vestiges, or psionics.

If you want more/better advice, then you need to narrow down your parameters.

[Jeivar]

What books do you have available?

I assume 'Cleric' and 'Druid' are not the answers you want...

Complete Divine, Warrior and Scoundrel.

[Thurbane]

Most people here will suggest one of the ToB classes, Warbalde or Swordsage...

Or Cleric with DMM Persist Divine Power.

...and depending how you define "warrior", Duskblade is a possibility. Or some other gish (Wiz/Abj Champion etc.).

[Jeivar]

Most full casters, any Tome of Battle class, Psychic Warrior, Totemist, Incarnate, or Binder. The key is that you need a set of well scaled powers - magic, maneuvers, soulmelds, vestiges, or psionics.

If you want more/better advice, then you need to narrow down your parameters.

Well, like I said I'm thinking of melee combat, not spellcasting.

[herrhauptmann]

Next question, what do you think of when you say 'competent'? Sword and board fighter with weapon focus?
If you can get your mitts on Savage Species, combine the warhulk with the hulking hurler, and you can large damage output, but at the cost of mental skills and iterative attacks.
Cleric X is generally quite powerful so long as you actually do more than cast cure spells. So Cleric radiant servant of pelor. Your immediate weakness is being sneaky, but most characters in armor have that issue. For you however, enough care will net you the right spells to negate even that weakness.

[Person_Man]

Then you might also consider a Paladin 7 with the Leadership feat for an interesting mount (like a dragon). Play a small race on a medium mount, use a lance two handed with Spirited Charge, buy some wands, and you're set.

[Greenish]

Complete Divine, Warrior and Scoundrel.Can you use SRD? Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm) seems to fit the bill, though it is a partial manifester.

Your other options are multiclassing quite a bit, since there aren't many great melee PrCs, but short dips to even the core melee can be pretty powerful.


As a side note, people who dislike how others keep suggesting ToB for everything should notice how some threads are just begging for it. :smallcool:

[Thurbane]

For core-only, the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) is considered an effective build, but I'm not sure how well-rounded it is (it seems to do one thing very well).

[Coidzor]

Well, there's the horizon tripper. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) A core-only build designed to try to address this.

Edit: Ahh, ninjas! Uncanny Trickster might be fun to tack onto the build for more skillpoints if you want to go that direction.

[Tael]

Well, like I said I'm thinking of melee combat, not spellcasting.

Take a closer look at the classes he suggested. They are all melee classes.

[Greenish]

For core-only, the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) is considered an effective build, but I'm not sure how well-rounded it is (it seems to do one thing very well).That's very well-rounded for core-only melee. :smallamused:

Besides, it has the dimension door and other fancy gadgets.

[Leon]

What ever class you settle on be sure to take the Obese trait for a fully rounded nature

[Jeivar]

Next question, what do you think of when you say 'competent'? Sword and board fighter with weapon focus?
If you can get your mitts on Savage Species, combine the warhulk with the hulking hurler, and you can large damage output, but at the cost of mental skills and iterative attacks.


Well . . . I guess I just mean a warrior who isn't dependent on some special circumstance or certain kinds of enemies to be effective. For example . . .


Then you might also consider a Paladin 7 with the Leadership feat for an interesting mount (like a dragon). Play a small race on a medium mount, use a lance two handed with Spirited Charge, buy some wands, and you're set.

. . . I WANT to make a Paladin with mounted combat feats, maybe a dog-riding halfling paladin in dear memory of Mazzy Fentan, but those feats all become useless the moment you get into a situation where mounted combat isn't an option. Plus, halfling-sized weapons don't pack the same punch.


For core-only, the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) is considered an effective build, but I'm not sure how well-rounded it is (it seems to do one thing very well).

Interesting build, but too high level for what me and friends are getting into.

[Mongoose87]

. . . I WANT to make a Paladin with mounted combat feats, maybe a dog-riding halfling paladin in dear memory of Mazzy Fentan, but those feats all become useless the moment you get into a situation where mounted combat isn't an option. Plus, halfling-sized weapons don't pack the same punch.


When are medium-sized people going to be able to fit, yet a halfling on a dog not?

Also, the difference in damage is negligible, with decent STR.

[Coidzor]

. . . I WANT to make a Paladin with mounted combat feats, maybe a dog-riding halfling paladin in dear memory of Mazzy Fentan, but those feats all become useless the moment you get into a situation where mounted combat isn't an option. Plus, halfling-sized weapons don't pack the same punch.

Considering you have Complete Warrior available, I believe part of the supermount build is open to you. Unfortunately you don't have Complete Adventurer so Devoted Tracker is offlimits... as is animal lord/beastmaster. :/

Leon: Thanks for reminding (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EpbyzjlO20&feature=related)me. x.x

[Master_Rahl22]

Jeivar, the Horizon Tripper is designed to be playable from level 1, so it's certainly not "too high level," it merely gives you a good idea where to go once you level up. At level 7 you could have all of the recommended feats and 2 levels of Horizon Walker.

I'm a big fan of the Dervish in Complete Warrior. Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2 is a very simple and effective entry point to the PrC, which would let you have 2 levels of Dervish to start. You can dual wield Scimitars with no penalty and can make a full attack while moving when in your Dervish Dance. Your only combat challenge is stuff with DR, so sources of bonus damage are a must (even if it's buffs from your friendly neighborhood Wizard). If you're interested, check out The Dervish Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870778/The_Dervish_Handbook?pg=1)

[agahii]

If you go dervish Id try to get a transmuting weapon(for dr). My favorite way is to go kensai if your dm likes low magic item games.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Can you use the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/)? Or partial BAB and Saves? If so, I'd recommend one of two builds:

Build 1:
Human Monk 2/Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) 5/Sacred Fist 10/Cloistered Cleric 3

Your feats up to level 6 are as follows: Combat Casting (Level 1 feat), Stunning Fist (Monk 1 bonus feat), Combat Reflexes (Monk 2 bonus feat), Extend Spell (Human bonus feat), Persistent Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell) (Level 3 feat), Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell (Level 6 feat)

Other feats you might want to take include: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Knock-down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown), or you could focus on grappling (I'm no expert on the subject, so I don't know what feats you'd want besides Improved Grapple), and if you can get them allowed, Travel Devotion and Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion.

This build requires partial BAB (to qualify for Sacred Fist at level 8) but could work without it (you'd just get into Sacred Fist later). Also, note that Sacred Fist is a full casting progression class according to the text (which trumps the table) so you'll still get ninth level spells. It is a pretty effective unarmed fighter, and mobile too, if you can get Travel Devotion. Persist Divine Power (or some other buff, before you have access to Divine Power) and go to town. You could also do it with regular Cleric, but I prefer Cloistered Cleric for the skill points.

Build 2:
Elf Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) 5/Seeker of the Misty Isle 10/Cloistered Cleric 5

You'll need to take Travel Domain to get Survival as a class skill with this build. Hopefully your DM will let you trade your second Travel Domain (from Seeker of the Misty Isle) for Travel Devotion or some other domain. Also, note that Seeker of the Misty Isle is also full casting according to the text.

As far as feats go, you'll want Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and DMM: Persistent Spell, and Power Attack, and the rest of your feats are pretty open.

This build also persists Divine Power for melee ability, and uses its spells to buff itself and its allies. It also gets 6+Int skills for the duration, and off of a pretty good list. It, like any build, will benefit from Travel Devotion (which allows you to move as a swift action) and Knowledge Devotion (which allows you to make a knowledge check for bonus damage against a specific creature type), though if you can take knowledge devotion and trade it for Knowledge Domain (which the Cloistered Cleric gets for free) be careful to ask your DM if you still get all knowledge skills as class skills. It may be better just to take it as a feat rather than trading your domain for it.

Both of these builds are pretty capable in melee. The first requires no weapons or armor (though you'll want bracers of armor for the armor enchantments you can get and a necklace of natural attacks for weapon enchantments), while the second does require equipment. They both have pretty good skills off of a pretty good list, and Cloistered Clerics have a Bardic Knowledge like ability called Lore. Also, both of these could work with regular Cleric, however, I feel that the benefits of Cloistered Cleric (Skills, Lore) far outweigh the costs.

Edit: Oh, and you'll want to familiarize yourself with Person_Man's guide to Melee Combos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026) which is a wonderful resource for melee tactics.

[Amphetryon]

Try Shneekey's take on a Samurai. Takes some doing, but can work as a combat-debuffer.

[Greenish]

Try the Knight; Person_Man has a good handbook in his sig.Doesn't seem to be in the allowed sources.

[Amphetryon]

Bah. I fail. Cold medicine FTL. Editing.

[Lev]

. . . I WANT to make a Paladin with mounted combat feats, maybe a dog-riding halfling paladin in dear memory of Mazzy Fentan, but those feats all become useless the moment you get into a situation where mounted combat isn't an option. Plus, halfling-sized weapons don't pack the same punch.
Really you can play anything like a paladin, just convince yourself that your specialness comes from god. Crusader works.

Who needs mount feats when you have an elephant? ELEPHANT, ATTACK WITH YOUR FEETS.

Elephant: BRAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUAU

[Kalaska'Agathas]

The trouble with mounted warriors (especially with Elephant mounts) is that, while you may be able to ride your riding dog into the castle, that doesn't mean it's appropriate when going to the royal dinner (which will then get attacked). I'm not saying it's necessarily not going to work, just that some campaigns (those with a large social component, perhaps) don't work well with the mounted knight archetype.

[Coidzor]

The trouble with mounted warriors (especially with Elephant mounts) is that, while you may be able to ride your riding dog into the castle, that doesn't mean it's appropriate when going to the royal dinner (which will then get attacked). I'm not saying it's necessarily not going to work, just that some campaigns (those with a large social component, perhaps) don't work well with the mounted knight archetype.

Gear can supplement this to a certain extent, yeah, but, yeah, it's not going to be fighting at 100%. Then again, only a spellcaster would be, because you'd be expected to... not be armed or armored at such a thing so it's the DM nerfing melee in general. Which is ok occasionally but if he gets into a habit of doing this, one has to question the DMing style.

But if it's a social campaign, then any melee character is going to similarly be useless in those situations unless they're the skillmonkey or a gish.


Really you can play anything like a paladin, just convince yourself that your specialness comes from god. Crusader works.

Who needs mount feats when you have an elephant? ELEPHANT, ATTACK WITH YOUR FEETS.

Elephant: BRAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUAU

Ah, yes, Warbeast, the way to get a mount that scales with your WBL rather than ECL. :smallbiggrin:

[Zergrusheddie]

What class or class build is generally considered to be a competent fighter without any particular weaknesses or excessive specialization?

Every class has a weakness, though some have far fewer than others. If you want to eliminate weaknesses, you are looking at a fair amount of specialization. This is even more true for a fighter-type build if you do not utilize magic. I add another +1 to the Horizon Tripper. In practice, it is a better than it seems.

If you want just a flat out character that does loads of damage, but has pretty significant weaknesses (like kills the entire party eventually), play a Frenzied Berserker.

[Psyren]

Binder 15/KotSS 5 is extremely good at melee and has plenty of tricks, without feeling too "cast-y." (There's no slots or points to keep track of for instance.)

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I guess the question becomes: what's well rounded, Jeivar? And when you say you wanted Melee, not Spellcasting, did you mean Mundane, not Spellcasting? Because Spellcasters can be pretty brutal in melee.

[Thurbane]

Binder 15/KotSS 5 is extremely good at melee and has plenty of tricks, without feeling too "cast-y." (There's no slots or points to keep track of for instance.)
I second this - Binder is awesome, and KotSS is icing on the cake to make your Binder more melee oriented. :smallsmile:

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I don't think the OP has access to Tome of Magic though.

[Thurbane]

I don't think the OP has access to Tome of Magic though.
True...but then, he doesn't have material for 1/2 of what's been suggested! :smallbiggrin:

...more a general response to the topic, instead of directly for the OP. :smallredface:

[Urpriest]

Out of the sources listed, Cleric with Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell is probably the most versatile and capable melee class. Though "stuff summoned by a Malconvoker+the Malconvoker himself" may be a close second.

[Last Laugh]

Build 2:
Elf Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) 5/Seeker of the Misty Isle 10/Cloistered Cleric 5

You'll need to take Travel Domain to get Survival as a class skill with this build. Hopefully your DM will let you trade your second Travel Domain (from Seeker of the Misty Isle) for Travel Devotion or some other domain. Also, note that Seeker of the Misty Isle is also full casting according to the text.

As far as feats go, you'll want Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and DMM: Persistent Spell, and Power Attack, and the rest of your feats are pretty open.

This build also persists Divine Power for melee ability, and uses its spells to buff itself and its allies. It also gets 6+Int skills for the duration, and off of a pretty good list. It, like any build, will benefit from Travel Devotion (which allows you to move as a swift action) and Knowledge Devotion (which allows you to make a knowledge check for bonus damage against a specific creature type), though if you can take knowledge devotion and trade it for Knowledge Domain (which the Cloistered Cleric gets for free) be careful to ask your DM if you still get all knowledge skills as class skills. It may be better just to take it as a feat rather than trading your domain for it.

My question has little to do with the main thread, so I spoil it!
What alternatives are there to taking travel domain (to avoid duplicates)? Holt Warden from Cchampion gives survival, but you have to take the plant domain instead. (Any nice full cleric dips with survival?)

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I have no idea. I mean, you could dip for it, but I don't know any other domains that grant Survival. Maybe there's a feat for it?

[Coidzor]

Well, if the SRD is allowed he might be able human par- wait, no.... Maybe Ruatha-... no again. :/

[Jeivar]

I have one other little question: What are the minuses for using two Light weapons when a character has the Two Weapon Fighting feat?

[AstralFire]

I have one other little question: What are the minuses for using two Light weapons when a character has the Two Weapon Fighting feat?

- Can't power attack
- You're using two-weapon fighting

[tyckspoon]

I have one other little question: What are the minuses for using two Light weapons when a character has the Two Weapon Fighting feat?

-2/-2, the same as for using a one-handed + Light combo. The rules only care about the handedness/size of the off-hand weapon.

[Urpriest]

I have one other little question: What are the minuses for using two Light weapons when a character has the Two Weapon Fighting feat?

-2 to all attacks.

[Person_Man]

. . . I WANT to make a Paladin with mounted combat feats, maybe a dog-riding halfling paladin in dear memory of Mazzy Fentan, but those feats all become useless the moment you get into a situation where mounted combat isn't an option. Plus, halfling-sized weapons don't pack the same punch.

Mounted combat is always an option. A Small PC riding a Medium mount can go everywhere a Medium PC can go. Even if you don't have the room to Charge, you can still use your lance as a reach weapon on smack away at your enemies, and/or use Paladin spells via wands, and/or use your mounts special abilities (for example, a dragon's breath weapon or spells), and/or use magic items.

The damage difference between a Small and Medium character is negligible. Use your lance two handed with Power Attack, and your damage will be 1d6+(1.5*Str)+(BAB*2)+enhancement bonus. On a Charge, it will be 3[1d6+(1.5*Str)+(BAB*2)+enhancement bonus], enough to kill pretty most enemies with 1-2 hits.

[Starbuck_II]

Interesting build, but too high level for what me and friends are getting into.

You can be a level 2 Horizon Walker by 7, you can't dimension door yet, but still playable.

[Gametime]

With Complete Warrior and Scoundrel, you could make a Daring Outlaw. 3 (or, more likely, 4) levels of Rogue, then the rest as Swashbuckler. It's nothing spectacular, but you get close to full BAB, Sneak Attack at full progression, and some halfway decent skillmonkeying capability. If you can get Able Learner (from Races of Destiny), all your Rogue skills will always be class skills, so you should be able to manage a decent amount of versatility.

Unfortunately, real versatility requires some amount of magic, and that doesn't seem to be what you're looking for.

[wayfare]

Try Swashbuckler if you can get your mits on it.

Barbarian into Bear Warrior into Reaping Mauler can do most anything, and gives nice grapple bonuses. Your strength should be high enough at this point to just obliterate the stuff you cannot grapple.


A Fighter into Kensai is pretty decent for all-around combat prep.

[Optimator]

Reaping Mauler is awful.