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Ranger Mattos
2010-11-18, 09:20 PM
So I just got it at a used book store. I like all the flavor, and the Incarnate and Totemist seem pretty good. The Soulborn seemed a little lackluster, however. The PrC's, monsters, and other stuff I haven't really looked at.

So I was wondering, what does the playground think is good/bad about incarnum? Anything totally overpowered? Anything that I should stay away from at all times?

Amphetryon
2010-11-18, 09:24 PM
Totemist is amazing as a natural weapon ginsu class. Great Druid/Barbaric flavor. It can do ranged well with a Manticore Belt if you're determined to.

Incarnate can function as a melee, ranged, or skill-monkey, as you desire.

Soulborn is not generally worth it.

There are handbooks, possibly even still on GitP, and definitely at Wizards and BG.

Most don't find the mechanics intuitive; read it through at least twice.

AslanCross
2010-11-18, 09:26 PM
I hear it's great, but for the life of me I cannot understand it. One great thing about it, though, is that the Magic Item Compendium has lots of items that support it.

GreyMantle
2010-11-18, 09:41 PM
Eh, Magic of Blueness is a pretty decent sourcebook as far as 3.x goes. Although it really wasn't supposed to be much more than WotC testing out new resourcemanagement schemes in preparation for releasing 4E, they still managed to put out a moderately above average product.

There are probably two main flaws in it, though:

1) The mechanics, as others have noticed, are signif different than pretty much anything else in D&D. While this tends to make the people who take the time to learn them very protective and such about them, it also means that it's kind of unlikely for a random player to come into a session and ask the DM to make an Incarnum character out of the blue (no pun intended).

2) The book has the word "magic" in its title, but, in spite of this, an magic of blueness character doesn't really function like a wizard or sorcerer. This might not seem like a big issue, but it really can be for some people.

That being said, the essentia manipulation mechanics can be legitimately fun to play around with, and they give an undeniable sense of power over what your character can do that few others classes can match.


I ran one campaign (lasting levels 5-9) where one player played as a chaotic incarnate. She was mostly a melee-type, and she managed to hold her own pretty well with the other melee-er of the party (a warblade). The incarnate's player was more skilled with the rules and with tactics than the warblade's was, though.


The incarnate and totemist are both pretty well balanced in comparison to characters like warblades, (non-hurler) rogues, warlocks, etc. The incarnate does suffer from the character that most of their soulmeld's highlevel effects aren't really all that exciting. Just to increase the options available, though, I would recommend possibly relaxing alignment restrictions and increasing the number of Essentia available to some extent.

Echoes
2010-11-18, 09:46 PM
Because of the style of my main gaming group, I've never been too close to it. I really, really love the flavor, but being able to shape melds only once a day has always seemed stupid to me... It leaves a meldshaper locked into a particular role for the day, and when your "days" invariably consist of healthy spatterings of combat and skill challenges, lots of the more niche soulmelds are just left unshaped because they're taking up space of melds that are useful in nearly any situation. (here's to you, +2 on handle animal checks, one day you'll have your chance to shine...)

That said, I love incarnum for its application in other classes. Incarnum feats and the occasional essentia-invested spell/power make any other character 40% more awesome, and sometimes there's even room for a dip or PrC to offer just the right melds to fill in a usual weakness of the class.

Greenish
2010-11-18, 09:53 PM
I hear it's great, but for the life of me I cannot understand it.:smallconfused:

It's not that complicated: you shape stuff to gain the basic effect, bind them to a chakra (which usually corresponds with a magic item slot, and takes up that slot) and then you can put points into it to gain stronger effects.

CodeRed
2010-11-19, 12:28 AM
It's very dense imo about first figuring out how things work. As well, since it is so different from anything that came before a lot of people don't understand it.

Flickerdart
2010-11-19, 12:30 AM
Because of the style of my main gaming group, I've never been too close to it. I really, really love the flavor, but being able to shape melds only once a day has always seemed stupid to me... It leaves a meldshaper locked into a particular role for the day, and when your "days" invariably consist of healthy spatterings of combat and skill challenges, lots of the more niche soulmelds are just left unshaped because they're taking up space of melds that are useful in nearly any situation. (here's to you, +2 on handle animal checks, one day you'll have your chance to shine...)

That said, I love incarnum for its application in other classes. Incarnum feats and the occasional essentia-invested spell/power make any other character 40% more awesome, and sometimes there's even room for a dip or PrC to offer just the right melds to fill in a usual weakness of the class.
Why would you bind a soulmeld that only offers +2 to Handle Animal? The nice thing about them is that they give a few different benefits, not just one.

AstralFire
2010-11-19, 05:44 AM
:smallconfused:

It's not that complicated: you shape stuff to gain the basic effect, bind them to a chakra (which usually corresponds with a magic item slot, and takes up that slot) and then you can put points into it to gain stronger effects.

It's a dense initial read, and if Aslan's like me, just was not intrigued enough by the concept to try and push through.

Echoes
2010-11-19, 08:21 AM
Why would you bind a soulmeld that only offers +2 to Handle Animal? The nice thing about them is that they give a few different benefits, not just one.

Well it was a bit of an exaggeration, but Riding Bracers, which is one of the few soulmelds that all three base classes can shape, really do offer only +4 to Ride and Handle Animal checks, with essentia boosting these numbers by +2. When bound to the arms chakra, they offer a damage/AC bonus while riding, and when bound to the totem, it lets you handle animals as a free action.

Though it does do more than one thing, there is no reason I would ever bind the Riding Bracers to the totem or even the arms, when that slot can be filled with things like the Girallon Arms.

dsmiles
2010-11-19, 08:31 AM
I hear it's great, but for the life of me I cannot understand it. One great thing about it, though, is that the Magic Item Compendium has lots of items that support it.

I'm with you on that one. I don't get it.

Abies
2010-11-19, 08:40 AM
In my experience MoI is a great supplement for campaigns where the PCs have less than prefect control over the equipment/magic items they have access to. The abiltiy to take what amounts to magic items as class features is terrific if there is limited access to a magic mart or easy/frequent crafting.

If however, you do have a DM who lets the party take weekend shopping trips to Sigil to buy those super-specific obscure magic items, then perhaps the benefits are not so noticable since the players will always be functioning wiht all amgic slots filled and at level/wealth appropriate bonuses.

Totemist is still a natural attack terror in either situation though. And the incarnum-to-other-stuff feats are a great addition, though a bit limiting since most characters have a small essentia pool.

Tael
2010-11-19, 08:42 AM
Very awesome. Except the Soulborn, but there are like over 9000 fixes for that.

Amphetryon
2010-11-19, 09:38 AM
Well it was a bit of an exaggeration, but Riding Bracers, which is one of the few soulmelds that all three base classes can shape, really do offer only +4 to Ride and Handle Animal checks, with essentia boosting these numbers by +2. When bound to the arms chakra, they offer a damage/AC bonus while riding, and when bound to the totem, it lets you handle animals as a free action.

Though it does do more than one thing, there is no reason I would ever bind the Riding Bracers to the totem or even the arms, when that slot can be filled with things like the Girallon Arms.

They'd function well if you were doing a mounted charger role, but that role definitely has marked limits. If you're just dipping Incarnum while building a Halfling Outrider/Beastmaster, though, the benefits are pretty good.

hamishspence
2010-11-19, 09:45 AM
The name "Incarnate" does have a certain style to it.

So if someone was asked what they are, their answer sounds like a boast, or a pre-buttkicking one-liner:

"Chaos incarnate!" or "Evil incarnate!"

Psyren
2010-11-19, 11:03 AM
Tastes great with psionics, so it gets my vote. I like the flavor too.

The Giant gave it a shout-out too, so how can I dislike? :smalltongue:

EDIT: Also, what hamish said

Fouredged Sword
2010-11-19, 12:30 PM
Gestalt crazyness. Totaly rocks when mixed with other stuff.

SurlySeraph
2010-11-19, 04:18 PM
I'm not a big fan of Incarnum (dislike the fluff, find it a bit too convoluted to be fun building characters with), but more power to you if you are.

As for potentially broken things:

1. Midnight Metamagic is abusable. In particular, there's a trick where you use Psycarnum Infusion to treat MM as if it has max essentia invested in it. Since PI says you only treat the feat as if it had essentia invested in it until the start of your next turn, and you have not actually invested any essentia in MM, you evade the 1/day restriction on MM. Thus, with Psionic Meditation, MM, PI, Quicken Spell, and Improved Essentia Capacity, you could cast a quickened spell every round by spending your move action to regain psionic focus.
That's arguable not even terribly overpowered, since it requires a very heavy feat investment and takes up your move action, but still.

2. Totemists, combined with other things that are great with natural attacks, can be ridiculous. Levels in Soul Eater or Warshaper, races like Anthropomorphic Giant Squid or other things that get silly amounts of natural attacks already, and Rapidstrike can lead to very powerful results.

Glimbur
2010-11-19, 05:47 PM
My favorite part about Magic of Incarnum is that it's helpful for everyone. Monk wants pounce on his natural attacks? Two feats. Rogue is afraid about being dominated or Magic Jar'd? One feat to prevent that. Barbarian wants a little extra leeway before death? One feat makes you stable and active up to -10. Etc. And that's just taking Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra, the other feats are sometimes exactly what you'd like for a little extra focus on something.

Psyren
2010-11-19, 05:56 PM
My favorite part about Magic of Incarnum is that it's helpful for everyone. Monk wants pounce on his natural attacks? Two feats. Rogue is afraid about being dominated or Magic Jar'd? One feat to prevent that. Barbarian wants a little extra leeway before death? One feat makes you stable and active up to -10. Etc. And that's just taking Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra, the other feats are sometimes exactly what you'd like for a little extra focus on something.

"Instant awesome, just add water souls"

Blackfang108
2010-11-19, 06:28 PM
"Instant awesome, just add water souls"

+1.

Perfect summation.

You get a cookie.

Psyren
2010-11-19, 07:09 PM
+1.

Perfect summation.

You get a cookie.

Almost. One more thing to add:

BLUE

Now it's a perfect summation of Incarnum :smalltongue:

AslanCross
2010-11-19, 07:57 PM
:smallconfused:

It's not that complicated: you shape stuff to gain the basic effect, bind them to a chakra (which usually corresponds with a magic item slot, and takes up that slot) and then you can put points into it to gain stronger effects.

At the risk of sounding stupid, I find that a lot more convoluted than psionics and the crusader's maneuver recovery system. Maybe in practice the rules work out fine, but I struggle to comprehend the way it's written.

Arbitrarity
2010-11-19, 09:22 PM
Mmmk. Three steps, but yes, this is somewhat complex.

1) Shape soulmelds for the day. You can use anything on your class list, and a number up to your limit. (or CON-10, iirc)

Note that only one soulmeld can be located on each chakra (hands, arms, feet, soul, heart, throat, crown, brow, shoulders, waist).
You can designate each soulmeld to be on a chakra which it can be bound to. For example, Bloodwar Gauntlets can be bound to hand or arm chakra, and so can be designated to be on either, at your discretion.

2) Bind soulmelds (generally for the day)
Pick a number of your soulmelds (which are shaped in chakras you can bind to, as described in your class) up to your given number of chakra binds. You may bind these to their chakras, taking up spaces as magic items and giving additional bonuses.

3) Distribute Essentia
You have a pool of essentia defined by class (+ feats + some racial qualities). This pool can be split as you please as a swift action among any of your shaped soulmelds for additional bonuses, so long as the essentia in a single meld doesn't exceed a cap (1+1/6 levels, not extending into epic. Some class features may increase this cap)

Psyren
2010-11-19, 09:24 PM
At the risk of sounding stupid, I find that a lot more convoluted than psionics and the crusader's maneuver recovery system. Maybe in practice the rules work out fine, but I struggle to comprehend the way it's written.

Don't feel bad; I still wrestle with ToB. I think our brains just ken more quickly to some things than others on an individual basis (and I wouldn't have it any other way :smallsmile:)

Gametime
2010-11-19, 11:35 PM
Yeah, it took me three reads of the book and several helpful forum posts before I started to understand Incarnum. I think the fact that you can both shape and bind soulmelds is the most confusing part; the processes are very similar, but they still end up working differently. The whole thing makes sense, once you get it, but until then it's hard to grok.

mint
2010-11-20, 07:37 AM
It is borderline amazing once you get the rules. They get a lot of good tricks quite early.
I think one of the melds provide the earliest class based flight in the game, among other things.

Greenish
2010-11-20, 07:51 AM
At the risk of sounding stupid, I find that a lot more convoluted than psionics and the crusader's maneuver recovery system.Well, that it is, and I meant to suggest nothing about anyone's intelligence.

I just meant that once you get a grasp of it, it's pretty simple. Though there are better ways to grasp it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153196) in the first place than the book itself. :smallamused:

dsmiles
2010-11-20, 08:06 AM
Well, that it is, and I meant to suggest nothing about anyone's intelligence.

I just meant that once you get a grasp of it, it's pretty simple. Though there are better ways to grasp it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153196) in the first place than the book itself. :smallamused:

Ooh. What have we here? *click* OOH! Thanks, Greenish.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-11-20, 11:17 AM
People are quick to describe the awesomeness of the totemist, but in my experience I've found them to be somewhat underwhelming. Oftentimes, they become a 'flurry of mosquito bites' style fighter, dishing out a ton of attacks that don't do very much damage. They also seem to have the 'flurry of misses' flaw that the monk has.

Also, damage reduction can shut them down hard. Even a paltry DR 5/x can reduce their damage output a great deal. As is tradition, they seem to pale in comparison to two-handed weapon fighters and uber-chargers.

Lapak
2010-11-20, 07:22 PM
People are quick to describe the awesomeness of the totemist, but in my experience I've found them to be somewhat underwhelming. Oftentimes, they become a 'flurry of mosquito bites' style fighter, dishing out a ton of attacks that don't do very much damage. They also seem to have the 'flurry of misses' flaw that the monk has.

Also, damage reduction can shut them down hard. Even a paltry DR 5/x can reduce their damage output a great deal. As is tradition, they seem to pale in comparison to two-handed weapon fighters and uber-chargers.The major advantage of Incarnum in general is that it allows you to refocus yourself to an extreme degree overnight. If a totemist is going into a situation where a dozen natural attacks are not likely to be useful, they can grab melds that provide ranged-touch energy attacks or increase damage on single attacks or cause status effects like stunning on a charge.

There's also the factor that they multiclass exceptionally well; dropping some totemist (or Incarnate, for that matter) on a standard high-damage melee build can give it a pile of options it would otherwise lack while amping up its melee abilities too.

Proven_Paradox
2010-11-20, 07:32 PM
I love Incarnum and wish I had more chances to use it. I'm particularly fond of gestalt games, and Incarnum is absolutely amazing in gestalt.

gdiddy
2010-11-21, 01:36 AM
It's not bad, but you definitely have to be okay with explaining to everyone else in your group OoC and IC your special snowflake character 3-4 times. Be prepared to explain how each thing works to your DM/other players a few times per session during combat.

Honestly, the fact that I feel dumb saying "I just made spirit boots out of the combined soul energy in the universe" keeps me from ever playing it. It's not the mechanics. It's not the fluff. It's just that both are so damn different than anything else in 3.5. I feel contrarian and silly in a standard FR or Greyhawk game. If you're braver, good for you.

tl;dr: Not enough bat poo.

Halae
2010-11-21, 09:38 AM
"Instant awesome, just add water souls"Close

For those who do not understand Incarnum, I shall try to analogize.

Think of it as having cups and water, these being your soulmelds and your essentia, respectively.

At the beginning of the day, you choose which cups you want to use for the day.

You can distribute your water between them in any way you want, but you cannot let them overflow.

Ta Da!

sonofzeal
2010-11-21, 09:45 AM
Close

For those who do not understand Incarnum, I shall try to analogize.

Think of it as having cups and water, these being your soulmelds and your essentia, respectively.

At the beginning of the day, you choose which cups you want to use for the day.

You can distribute your water between them in any way you want, but you cannot let them overflow.

Ta Da!
And then.... sometimes your cups become... more cup-y? But only certain ones, and when one becomes more cup-y it'll stop others from becoming more cup-y in the same way, so they'll have to be more cup-y in other ways, but only if you're able to morecupify them in those ways, which is no guarantee at certain levels.

AstralFire
2010-11-21, 09:51 AM
Reminds me of when my professor explained-

Goddamnit. I can't tell ANY of my funny class story jokes on this board because I was a Religious Studies Major. :smallmad:

Halae
2010-11-21, 09:51 AM
And then.... sometimes your cups become... more cup-y? But only certain ones, and when one becomes more cup-y it'll stop others from becoming more cup-y in the same way, so they'll have to be more cup-y in other ways, but only if you're able to morecupify them in those ways, which is no guarantee at certain levels.

Granted, it's not a perfect analogy, but it's getting there.

Starbuck_II
2010-11-21, 10:00 AM
It's not bad, but you definitely have to be okay with explaining to everyone else in your group OoC and IC your special snowflake character 3-4 times. Be prepared to explain how each thing works to your DM/other players a few times per session during combat.

Honestly, the fact that I feel dumb saying "I just made spirit boots out of the combined soul energy in the universe" keeps me from ever playing it. It's not the mechanics. It's not the fluff. It's just that both are so damn different than anything else in 3.5. I feel contrarian and silly in a standard FR or Greyhawk game. If you're braver, good for you.

tl;dr: Not enough bat poo.

Just say you made your boots out of spiral energy.
"Who the Hell do you think I am!"

The Valiant Turtle
2010-11-21, 10:10 AM
Although it breaks the mood a bit I always find Incarnum easier to understand using more sci-fi based analogies. In particular the on-the-fly assigning of essentia strikes me strongly of "Scotty, more power to the boots!". Every day you choose which additional modules you add on your personal starship and hook up a few of them to special power circuits. During the day you have Scotty re-route power to the modules that need them on the fly. A cyborg analogy might work a bit better I suppose.

sonofzeal
2010-11-21, 10:13 AM
Granted, it's not a perfect analogy, but it's getting there.
Binding vs Shaping vs Investing was the part that confused me the most when I first picked up the system. Essentia's easy, a shiftable resource yadda yadda yadda. But can you shape two soulmelds that go for the same chakra? What if one is bound and the other isn't? Do bound soulmelds still count towards your limit of "shaped" ones? Can people see the ones I have shaped, or just the ones I have bound, or is it the other way round or neither? And how does all that interact with Dispel Magic or AMF again? Does a non-soulmelder still have essentia even if they don't have anything to do with it?

Yeah. I still don't really get it. I think I could answer some of those now, more if I had the books handy, but I still think it's easily the most confusing subsystem in D&D. It rewards mastery, especially through the feat options, but it's still really messy and probably a low priority for most people to learn.

Greenish
2010-11-21, 10:19 AM
But can you shape two soulmelds that go for the same chakra?
What if one is bound and the other isn't?
Do bound soulmelds still count towards your limit of "shaped" ones?
Can people see the ones I have shaped, or just the ones I have bound, or is it the other way round or neither?
And how does all that interact with Dispel Magic or AMF again?
Does a non-soulmelder still have essentia even if they don't have anything to do with it?

You can't shape two soulmelds into the same chakra, but if the other can be shaped on some other chakra, you can shape it there. One souldmeld per chakra, without feats.
No, not even then.
Yes, they're both bound and shaped. You can't bind a 'meld you haven't shaped.
They can see both the shaped and the bound ones, according to the fluff.
They won't work in AMF, and can be dispelled like normal magical buffs (CL = Meldshaper level).
Yes, if they gain it from somewhere that gives no investing options, such as being an azurin.

AmberVael
2010-11-21, 11:12 AM
People are quick to describe the awesomeness of the totemist, but in my experience I've found them to be somewhat underwhelming. Oftentimes, they become a 'flurry of mosquito bites' style fighter, dishing out a ton of attacks that don't do very much damage. They also seem to have the 'flurry of misses' flaw that the monk has.

Also, damage reduction can shut them down hard. Even a paltry DR 5/x can reduce their damage output a great deal. As is tradition, they seem to pale in comparison to two-handed weapon fighters and uber-chargers.

On the other hand, your typical uber-charger won't get the opportunity to deal damage to all weapons attacking them (free sunder attempts, woo!), have an at will Petrification attack, or have a really easy time picking up a fly speed.

Even the awesome ToB classes have a hard time comparing to the damage output of uber-chargers. But the problem with the typical fighter builds is that damage is all they have... and Magic of Incarnum characters really don't share that issue.

However, a good melee totemist build finds way to pick up extra damage so that they don't have as much problem with DR. One of the easiest ways I've used (and quite frequently) is to either dip Incarnate or take Shape Soulmeld (Incarnate Avatar), to get that +2 melee damage per invested essentia, which is pretty awesome for a natural attack combo (you have to be evil for that though).
Failing that, Heart of Fire is a really good soulmeld for this purpose, as you can add a ton of fire damage with your essentia. It may be a common resistance, but you'll find opportunity enough to use it.

Lapak
2010-11-21, 11:54 AM
Although it breaks the mood a bit I always find Incarnum easier to understand using more sci-fi based analogies. In particular the on-the-fly assigning of essentia strikes me strongly of "Scotty, more power to the boots!".Indeed. I think that's the easiest way to explain it. Here's a post where I draw that analogy out a bit more (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8698574&postcount=11).



They won't work in AMF, and can be dispelled like normal magical buffs (CL = Meldshaper level).
It's important to note that soulmelds act like magical items rather than buffs: Dispelling suppresses them for 1d4 rounds, it doesn't knock them out altogether such that you need to reshape them. Takes a higher-level effect to do that.