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Thurbane
2010-11-18, 11:11 PM
Hey all,

If you were setting out to make a party where none of the characters were of the Humanoid type, what are the races you could use with the lowest LA/RHD?

Aberration: Elan
Construct: Warforged
Dragon: Kobold (?)
Elemental: (?)
Fey: Duskling, Killoren
Giant: 1/2 Giant (+1 LA)
Monstrous Humanoid: Goliath (+1 LA)
Outsider: Neraph
Plant: Volodni (+1 LA)
Undead: Necropolitan

...I don't think there are any playable Animals, Oozes or Vermin (other than awakened versions, which generally change type)?

Please feel free to expand the list...

DaragosKitsune
2010-11-18, 11:41 PM
Construct: Exiled Modron (Dragon 354)
Monstrous Humanoid: Lupin (Dragon Compendium), T'Kel (Dragon 317)
Outsider: Glimmerfolk (Dragon 321), Most Planetouched (+1LA, typically)
Fey: Killoren (Races of the Wild), Gruwaar (Dragon 317), Uldra (+1LA, Frostburn)

Read Dragon, they tend to have a lot. Also, look into templates.

Thurbane
2010-11-18, 11:46 PM
I suppose I should include them for the sake of completeness, but my group(s) never use Dragon material...templates that change type are a good idea. I included Necropolitan, but I guess there are others.

Endarire
2010-11-18, 11:48 PM
Use these Savage Progressions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a).

Aasimar and Tiefling come in at LA0 Outsiders.

Psyren
2010-11-18, 11:55 PM
Synads are LA 0 Aberrations as well, and don't have negative stats like Elan do.

Bariaur are LA 1 centaur-like Outsiders.

DaragosKitsune
2010-11-19, 01:22 AM
Now that I think of it, check out Crystal Keep. They have some good lists of races and templates.

Coidzor
2010-11-19, 02:46 AM
Hmm, now if only there were low RHD, low LA magical beasts....

gorfnab
2010-11-19, 03:21 AM
Hmm, now if only there were low RHD, low LA magical beasts....
Magical Beast - Beguiler from Shining South +0LA, 0 RHD (1 hit dice but would be replaced with class level upon character creation)

Lev
2010-11-19, 03:34 AM
Construct: Exiled Modron
Reptilian: Kobold
Elemental: Stonechild
Fey: Pixie
Giant: Half Giant
Monstrous Humanoid: Thri-Kreen
Outsider: Celadrin or Aasimar
Shapechanger: Changeling

Thurbane
2010-11-19, 04:36 AM
Beguiler is a good pickup.

Is Stonechild the only playable Elemental? It has 2 RHD and +4 LA. I know it has a monster class, but still...

Makiru
2010-11-19, 04:49 AM
Stonechild's actually an Outsider. I think that the lowest ECL elementals are the small elementals from MMI/SS, coming in at ECL 6.

Lev
2010-11-19, 05:26 AM
Beguiler is a good pickup.

Is Stonechild the only playable Elemental? It has 2 RHD and +4 LA. I know it has a monster class, but still...
There are mephits and such, but I was just naming the ones I like =]

Ernir
2010-11-19, 05:36 AM
Speaking of non-humanoid PCs...

is the
Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws.
rule repeated anywhere outside the "humanoid" type description? :smallconfused:

true_shinken
2010-11-19, 05:44 AM
Tibbits are monstrous humanoids, surprisingly. ^^

dsmiles
2010-11-19, 05:47 AM
is the rule repeated anywhere outside the "humanoid" type description? :smallconfused:Savage Species restates it. Any 1HD creature replaces that HD with the HD from their first class level.

Runestar
2010-11-19, 06:11 AM
Stonechild's actually an Outsider. I think that the lowest ECL elementals are the small elementals from MMI/SS, coming in at ECL 6.

MM2 has the stone spike, 3 elemental HD, +2LA or ECL5.

FelixG
2010-11-19, 06:23 AM
are there any rules references for playing as an awakened animal? That could be a way to get Animal on the list

true_shinken
2010-11-19, 06:26 AM
are there any rules references for playing as an awakened animal? That could be a way to get Animal on the list

No, there are not.

Thurbane
2010-11-19, 06:33 AM
Also, Awakened animals automatically become Magical Beasts.

TurtleKing
2010-11-19, 11:23 AM
You could also look into any that have a racial progression. With this a lot more options open up to you. You could play a dragon, outsider, elemental, monstrous humanoid, magical beast, and more.

dsmiles
2010-11-19, 11:33 AM
Hey all,

If you were setting out to make a party where none of the characters were of the Humanoid type, what are the races you could use with the lowest LA/RHD?

Aberration: Elan
Construct: Warforged
Dragon: Kobold (?)
Elemental: (?)
Fey: Duskling, Killoren
Giant: 1/2 Giant (+1 LA)
Monstrous Humanoid: Goliath (+1 LA)
Outsider: Neraph
Plant: Volodni (+1 LA)
Undead: Necropolitan

...I don't think there are any playable Animals, Oozes or Vermin (other than awakened versions, which generally change type)?

Please feel free to expand the list...

I dunno, I generally like the ones that have a higher RHD/LA, even if it is just for flavor reasons.
Aberration: Silthilar (? I think. The CG ones from LoM that like to do the grafts.)
Construct: Maug (2RHD+3LA)
Dragon: Half-Dragon
Elemental: (?)
Fey: Nymph or Half-Fey
Giant: Half-Ogre (Savage Species)
Monstrous Humanoid: Doppleganger or Half-Troll (Fiend Folio)
Outsider: Rakshasa or Half-Celestial/Fiend
Plant: (?)
Undead: None. I dislike undead as PCs.

Sir Swindle89
2010-11-19, 12:10 PM
Gensai are either Elementals or Outsiders
Mephlings also (pretty sure they are elementals)

Psyren
2010-11-19, 01:59 PM
Gensai are either Elementals or Outsiders
Mephlings also (pretty sure they are elementals)

Genasi are Outsiders
Mephlings are Humanoids (Extraplanar subtype.)

Thurbane
2010-11-19, 07:30 PM
MM2 has the stone spike, 3 elemental HD, +2LA or ECL5.
Was the +2LA in errata, because it's not listed in my book.

Curmudgeon
2010-11-19, 07:58 PM
Savage Species restates it. Any 1HD creature replaces that HD with the HD from their first class level.
It's too bad that rule predates the 3.5 core rules, which take priority. :smallsigh:

dsmiles
2010-11-19, 08:02 PM
It's too bad that rule predates the 3.5 core rules, which take priority. :smallsigh:
Hit Dice and Class Levels

Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class.

Characters with more than 1 Hit Die because of their race do not get a feat for their first class level as members of the common races do, and they do not multiply the skill points for their first class level by four. Instead, they have already received a feat for their first Hit Die because of race, and they have already multiplied their racial skill points for their first Hit Die by four. That better?

Runestar
2010-11-19, 08:12 PM
Was the +2LA in errata, because it's not listed in my book.

It's in the MM2 update booklet. Think it will be hard to find a cheap elemental race, since elemental immunities are worth a fair bit.

Thurbane
2010-11-19, 08:31 PM
It's in the MM2 update booklet. Think it will be hard to find a cheap elemental race, since elemental immunities are worth a fair bit.
OK, thanks. Yeah, I think you're right - I looked at the consolidated lists archive over at Wizards, sorted by type, and there really wasn't much in the way of playable Elementals. Like the posters above, most of the creatures I thought of (Mephits, Mephlings, Genesai etc.) are all Outsiders (or Extraplanar Humanoids).

Magmin would seems a logical choice, but have no LA listed, unfortunately.

Psyren
2010-11-19, 08:41 PM
It's too bad that rule predates the 3.5 core rules, which take priority. :smallsigh:

MM1 pg. 290

Curmudgeon
2010-11-19, 11:07 PM
MM1 pg. 290
Yeah, I know. That's a rule for "Humanoids and Class Levels", so it doesn't apply to any other creature types.

Runestar
2010-11-19, 11:59 PM
Magmin would seems a logical choice, but have no LA listed, unfortunately.

Magmins have a LA of +4 according to savage species, for an ECL of 6 unfortunately. :smallyuk:

Thurbane
2010-11-20, 12:21 AM
That makes it the same as a Stonechild (ECL 6), but much worse...

Tetsubo 57
2010-11-20, 07:29 AM
All of the races listed by the OP are humanoid. As in they have 2 arms, 2 legs and at least 1 head. They aren't *human* I admit. But to my mind, non-humanoid means things like insects, centaurs, oozes, dragons, etc. Not men-in-suits. Men-in-suits are just different types of men.

true_shinken
2010-11-20, 07:36 AM
All of the races listed by the OP are humanoid. As in they have 2 arms, 2 legs and at least 1 head. They aren't *human* I admit. But to my mind, non-humanoid means things like insects, centaurs, oozes, dragons, etc. Not men-in-suits. Men-in-suits are just different types of men.

:smallsigh:
He's talking about D&D creature types.


Yeah, I know. That's a rule for "Humanoids and Class Levels", so it doesn't apply to any other creature types.

SRD disagrees with you.

Tetsubo 57
2010-11-20, 07:40 AM
:smallsigh:
He's talking about D&D creature types.

And as a GM of a long running 3.5 campaign I would have answered the same way if someone said 'non-humanoid' to me. *shrug* Maybe I don't actually speak English. I am American...

dsmiles
2010-11-20, 08:12 AM
Yeah, I know. That's a rule for "Humanoids and Class Levels", so it doesn't apply to any other creature types.


SRD disagrees with you.

Yes, yes it does, as I've already posted.

Hit Dice and Class Levels

Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class.

Characters with more than 1 Hit Die because of their race do not get a feat for their first class level as members of the common races do, and they do not multiply the skill points for their first class level by four. Instead, they have already received a feat for their first Hit Die because of race, and they have already multiplied their racial skill points for their first Hit Die by four.

Curmudgeon
2010-11-20, 08:14 AM
SRD disagrees with you.
Huh? I just checked, and it does no such thing. The Revised (v.3.5) System Reference Document main page is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35), and the Improving Monsters section is here (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/ImprovingMonsters.rtf). It's the same as on page 290 of the Monster Manual.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-11-20, 08:47 AM
Anthropomorphic Animals (Savage Species) and the Muckdweller (Serpent Kingdoms) are LA +0 Monstrous Humanoids according to http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19546874/Master_Player_Race_List_Version_2.0

LOTRfan
2010-11-20, 10:04 AM
Man, I forgot about the Muckdwellers. Tiny lizard characters FTW!

true_shinken
2010-11-20, 11:12 AM
Huh? I just checked, and it does no such thing. The Revised (v.3.5) System Reference Document main page is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35), and the Improving Monsters section is here (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/ImprovingMonsters.rtf). It's the same as on page 290 of the Monster Manual.

The text from the online d20 srd is different.

Curmudgeon
2010-11-20, 11:33 AM
The text from the online d20 srd is different.
Yes, that site has some errors, and difficulties in addressing those errors. (The error submission process is supposed to be through the Pen, Paper, & Pixel site forum, except you've got to register there first and registration is off-line now. :smallannoyed:)

Anyway, it's only d20srd that has the error. systemreferencedocuments.org (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/monstersAsRaces.html) has the correct info, same as the WotC SRD.

Psyren
2010-11-20, 11:50 AM
Yeah, I know. That's a rule for "Humanoids and Class Levels", so it doesn't apply to any other creature types.

The heading says humanoid, but the actual MM1 text says creature.

Curmudgeon
2010-11-20, 11:55 AM
The heading says humanoid, but the actual MM1 text says creature.
Sure. When you've already set the scope for the rule, you can use monster, humanoid, creature (all three of which are used interchangeably in that paragraph), or any other suitable term. The rule applies to creatures of the humanoid type.

hamishspence
2010-11-20, 12:00 PM
The Hypertext SRD:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#hitDiceAndClassLevels

phrases it as "Hit Dice and Class Levels":


Hit Dice and Class Levels
Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class.

Characters with more than 1 Hit Die because of their race do not get a feat for their first class level as members of the common races do, and they do not multiply the skill points for their first class level by four. Instead, they have already received a feat for their first Hit Die because of race, and they have already multiplied their racial skill points for their first Hit Die by four.

rather than "Humanoids and Class Levels".

Can a creature, which is not of the humanoid type, but is humanoid in shape, have no Racial Hit Dice, but instead have class levels?
Answer- Yes. Elans. Half-Giants. And more.

Psyren
2010-11-20, 12:16 PM
Can a creature, which is not of the humanoid type, but is humanoid in shape, have no Racial Hit Dice, but instead have class levels?
Answer- Yes. Elans. Half-Giants. And more.

Thank you hamish.

hamishspence
2010-11-20, 12:21 PM
Now if the creature is not "generally humanoid" in shape, it becomes trickier. Especially if its LA entry says Cohort, or it has none.

In these cases, allowing it to exchange its one Hit Dice for a character level, would be a houserule.

Curmudgeon
2010-11-24, 02:35 PM
The Hypertext SRD:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#hitDiceAndClassLevels

phrases it as "Hit Dice and Class Levels":

rather than "Humanoids and Class Levels".
No longer. I've exchanged e-mails with Jans Carton, and he's agreed that was an error. The heading now matches the Monster Manual text. Link here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#humanoidsAndClassLevels).

hamishspence
2010-11-25, 04:30 AM
There's still the precedent set by some playable creatures not of the "humanoid type" having a NPC class level, rather than a "Monster Hit Dice".

Tieflings. Aasimar. Elan. Half Giants.

All right, so those are all humanoid in shape- but none have the humanoid type.

Runestar
2010-11-25, 07:04 AM
Offhand, I can't really think of that many creatures with only 1 racial HD, say maybe pixie and possibly lantern archon? But good to finally put this debate to rest, I say. :smallbiggrin:

true_shinken
2010-11-25, 07:47 AM
There's still the precedent set by some playable creatures not of the "humanoid type" having a NPC class level, rather than a "Monster Hit Dice".

Tieflings. Aasimar. Elan. Half Giants.

All right, so those are all humanoid in shape- but none have the humanoid type.

Arguing with Curmodgeon is a waste of time.

hamishspence
2010-11-25, 07:51 AM
Arguing with Curmodgeon is a waste of time.

It's more to convince the other posters in the thread, that what's meant by Humanoid in that bit of MM text, is humanoid shape rather than humanoid type.

That's if any still aren't convinced.

AstralFire
2010-11-25, 07:53 AM
It's more to convince the other posters in the thread, that what's meant by Humanoid in that bit of MM text, is humanoid shape rather than humanoid type.

That's if any still aren't convinced.

I'm convinced.

Psyren
2010-11-25, 08:31 AM
It's more to convince the other posters in the thread, that what's meant by Humanoid in that bit of MM text, is humanoid shape rather than humanoid type.

That's if any still aren't convinced.I'm convinced.

As am I. It wouldn't make sense to be "humanoids ONLY" anyway.


Arguing with Curmodgeon is a waste of time.

+1 internet to you

Greenish
2010-11-25, 04:43 PM
Offhand, I can't really think of that many creatures with only 1 racial HD, say maybe pixie and possibly lantern archon?Doesn't beguiler have one, too?

It's more to convince the other posters in the thread, that what's meant by Humanoid in that bit of MM text, is humanoid shape rather than humanoid type.Is there any precedence for rules text to refer to humanoid shape instead of type? I seem to recall at least one instance somewhere…