Wild Speculation on Tarquin and Girard's Connection [Archive]

cho_j

2010-11-18, 11:54 PM

Hey there, Playground. I am proud to officially announce the birth of my first epileptic tree! In reading lots of discussion on whether we've seen Girard, only disguised with one of his illusions, I was linked to the strip where Tarquin accurately described Girard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html), two things occurred to me:

1) Tarquin rather pointedly refuses to tell us whether he KNOWS Girard, as a person
2) His description perfectly matches one left by Girard immediately after his party split up, the description all of us have been working with because WE'VE only seen him a) in flashback or b) as a holographic message of him a long time ago.

So that brings me to an interesting question for us all to ponder: isn't it possible that Tarquin is working off the same outdated physical description?

Tarquin's been in the Western Continent a very long time (since before he was totally gray, at least, and I doubt he went through any serious periods of malnutrition). Maybe he heard something about Girard or saw a picture of him or something a long time ago, and his curiosity was piqued, because Girard was clearly involved in something odd. He may even have the inkling that this something Girard has to do with may be a threat to long-term empire ruling.

In that case, he may even be looking to ask Elan and Haley more about Girard! All Tarquin knows of their secret quest is that, in Elan's words, they "need to find this guy, Girard Draketooth, and tell him [something]." Tarquin may be under the impression that the part of the Order he's met knows Girard and wants to reconnect with him, but can't find him.

So, Playgrounders, have at it! I kinda want someone to prove me wrong, since that could potentially be a huge let down in the way of the plot advancing.

Sylthia

2010-11-18, 11:58 PM

Maybe Girard was one of the rulers whose kingdom Tarquin toppled. He could have him in a cell somewhere or had him executed.

Nevereatcars

2010-11-19, 12:15 AM

I posted my (completely false) views about the link between Tarquin and Girard on page 16 of the 758 forum discussion, as a test of Poe's Law. In a nutshell, my argument is: Girard is Tarquin. Using illusion, he made an entirely new identity. Then he did the whole Magnificent Bastard scheme to protect the gate from any large, external force. I thought it was a pretty ridiculous theory, but that was the point. Unfortunately, playing Devil's Advocate for my own theory has completely screwed my teddy bear snippet kitty pumpkin head charm voldemort mind. So my own unbelievably stupid theory has started to grow on me, and now I think I might actually support it.

iowaforever

2010-11-19, 12:18 AM

Maybe Girard was one of the rulers whose kingdom Tarquin toppled. He could have him in a cell somewhere or had him executed.

Girard said he didn't trust authority figures like kings or other rulers because they may abuse their powers (probably what caused some of the meltdowns between him and Soon) so him being a king would kind of be betraying his views on the world

So i don't think he was a military target of Tarquin's in the past

zimmerwald1915

2010-11-19, 12:40 AM

So i don't think he was a military target of Tarquin's in the past
I doubt Tarquin could keep Girard imprisoned. Apart from any other considerations, he's an epic-level spellcaster, and would have been before even going to the Western Continent.

Sylthia

2010-11-19, 12:57 AM

I don't completely believe the possibility I put foward, it's just one possible way that Tarquin could know Girard. He need not even be a ruler of a large country, maybe his base of operations just happened to be in an area that Tarquin conquered. He may have tried to set up his base outside the influence of the volital political situation, but that was likely before Tarquin came along. Girard probably wins in a fair fight, but Tarquin has a whole army and under-handed tactics at his disposal.

Souhiro

2010-11-19, 03:38 AM

Well, I think that girard isn't an epic spellcaster. since he's likely a multiclass. He is more likeli to be an epic character, but without epic class.

Red XIV

2010-11-19, 06:13 AM

Even if they do have an army at their disposal, most people wouldn't mess with an epic-level spellcaster.

And I'm pretty sure Girard is an epic-level spellcaster. I was under the impression that he just had a couple of levels of ranger all the rest of his levels were wizard. Unless he's just barely to level 21 (unlikely), he'd have enough wizard levels to qualify as an epic-level spellcaster.

BridgeCity

2010-11-19, 06:22 AM

I'm not saying I believe this theory, just that it is possible.

There is always a chance that Girard is a member of Tarquin's party. Just because the Order of the Scribble broke up doesn't mean they all neccesarily gave up adventuring. Girard may have just found a new group to adventure with (possibly along with creating a new image for himself - he could be any one of the members we have seen so far being, an illusionist and all). His over-reaction-explosion in the desert says to me that he wouldn't neccesarily have had any problems belonging to a group that Tarquin would belong to.

Again, I don't think this is true and I'm not trying to convince anyone that it is. It's just an idea that occured to me while reading this thread and I don't think I've seen it written anywhere else, so I decided to post it here so that on the incredibly microscopic chance it is correct, I can sit here and feel like the cat who got the cream :smallsmile:

Uncle Casw

2010-11-19, 10:06 AM

Gift Jeraff

2010-11-19, 10:21 AM

Maybe Tarquin is related to Baron Pineapple (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).

No, I'm seriously. The name sounds like a Western tyrant's name (Title + Random theme, i.e. the Empress of Blood, the Weeping King, Queen Shvitzer), so he probably told Tarquin tales of the Western Continent. He also probably mentioned the Gates and the Order of the Scribble.

Okay, not I'm not totally serious, but it's still worth a thought, I think. :smalltongue:

cho_j

2010-11-19, 10:24 AM

Maybe Girard tried to stop Tarquin but after some explanations of T's plans he let him go on, since he can gain some benefit from the newfound continent's "stability".

Huh, just guessing :smallbiggrin:

Heh, for a wild guess, not too bad. We do know that Girard's not exactly a detractor of deceit, and Tarquin is doing some good (kind of... depends on what order you have your principles in).

Souhiro

2010-11-21, 04:59 PM

I really doubt about the Tarquin & Girard party.

Girard is indeed an epic character. but I'm pretty sure that Tarquin isn't. And is unlikely that Girard recruits a low level character, since a low level adventure is meaningless to a Girard, and Tarquin would be useless to an epic adventure.

Procyonpi

2010-11-21, 05:22 PM

I have a lot of trouble believing that the Lawful Tarquin and the Chaotic-to-the-extreme Girard really like, or at least trust each other. However, they both have a thing for manipulation and trickery, so who knows.

They're both probably aware of eachother's existence (and I would be HIGHLY surprised if Girard was not Savvy to Tarquin's scheme), simply due to having lived on the Western continent for so long and observed it's politics.

If I had to guess at the relationship here, I'd probably go for neither really trusting eachother, but staying more or less out of eachother's business. Girard, who has shown something of a contempt for the concept of "the greater good," and would therefore have no problem letting a lawful evil ruler do his thing so long as said ruler doesn't mess with his plans for the gates. Meanwhile, Tarquin, being the pragmatist that he is, isn't in any particular hurry to pick a fight with an epic-level illusionist so long as said illusionist doesn't interfere with his plans for conquest.

However, there are, of course, several other possibilities. Tarquin could just view Girard as some rebel who needs to be crushed. On the other end of the spectrum, it's even possible that after Tarquin's first attempt at conquest, Girard saw some potential, and SUGGESTED the plan so as to create a sort of "stable chaos" to hide behind - the western continent appears chaotic, and it's hard to track anyone down, but the secret order behind it prevents any bozo emperor with an inflated ego from messing with Girard.

I'm also sorta intrigued by the idea that the prisoner "Gerroff" is Girard.

Dr.Epic

2010-11-21, 05:31 PM

Well Tarquin isn't Girard spelled backwards or vice versa so I doubt they're brothers.:smalltongue:

Darth Hunterix

2010-11-21, 05:34 PM

Forum Explorer

2010-11-21, 05:59 PM

I can't belive nobody has said that they are related. But I'm not gonna be the first since I don't have any idea what kind of illogic I should employ to justify such assumption.

Instead I'm going to produce another theory:
Girard had made more recorded illusions with nice little booby trap, and Tarquin's party found one. Or more. Since words like "soon" (I mean "soon", not "Soon"), or "gate" are quite popular among adventurers ("We will soon approach the city's gate") there is high chance they even activated it. And now Tarquin would gladly make the guy who blow him up pay for it. He did menage to gather some intel, but still not enough.

Ditto. It seems likely that Tarquin's party ran into one of Girard's illusions and found out about him that way. In the meantime he hasn't learned anything.

Alternate theory: Tarquin captured some of Girard's men and tortured/mind raped a discription of Girard out of him/them.

Crazy theory: Tarquin knows all about the gates and is searching for them by eliminating all the chaos in the region by ruling it all. He's not stupid so he doesn't trust Elan with this info. and he's doing it behind the scenes so that Girard doesn't catch on.

Cybertoy00

2010-11-21, 06:37 PM

I've got a theory so mind-bogglingly stupid that it has to be said.
Tarquin knows Girard because Girard performs at 'Caesar's Palace'-esq casinos, entertaining the masses with his illusions. He's a celebrity, using the fame and prestige to distract people from the gate.
Yes, I know this theory is stupid. Yes, I know it has more holes in it that a screen door. You don't have to tell me.
So why did I bring it up? Why did I state this thick-skulled waste of a post? And how in the vast, unholy, wildly perverted internet did such a resolutely stupid idea come to me?
Three words:
RULE_OF_FUNNY

Water-Smurf

2010-11-21, 09:04 PM

I would say something like 'Girard is Ian', but that seems like a much too obvious/soap opera-y twist for Rich. He likes keeping us on our toes.

I doubt that Girard looks too different from how he did, though, unless he actually tried to disguise himself. He's probably old, but he's also an illusionist who seemed pretty full of life in the few times we've seen him. I don't think he'd really let himself grow old the way Dorukan and Soon did if he could help it, and he could.

cho_j

2010-11-21, 11:02 PM

Instead I'm going to produce another theory:
Girard had made more recorded illusions with nice little booby trap, and Tarquin's party found one. Or more. Since words like "soon" (I mean "soon", not "Soon"), or "gate" are quite popular among adventurers ("We will soon approach the city's gate") there is high chance they even activated it. And now Tarquin would gladly make the guy who blow him up pay for it. He did menage to gather some intel, but still not enough.

Hmm. That was actually my initial theory, but look (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html) at all the words you need to activate that gate:
-Gate
-Girard
-Sapphire Guard
-Soon

So, to find out about Girard this way, Tarquin would have had to ALREADY know Girard's name. Serious logic bomb! I think that chances are more likely that the physical description that he gives (which is what my OP theory is based on) might come from seeing the message than that he found out about Girard entirely through the message. Also, why would Tarquin ever find himself in "a completely random spot in the middle of the world's largest desert" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html) without prior reason to be?

iowaforever

2010-11-21, 11:35 PM

Gift Jeraff

2010-11-22, 12:06 AM

cho_j

2010-11-22, 12:19 AM

well, Tarquin did run out into the middle of the desert after his first empire got steamrolled by the coalition of those other nations, so he could have run into it there

although why he wouldn't try to seize the gate for himself if he did find something about it instead of executiong his "Grand Plan" is beyond me

That's pretty much the other reason I don't think he would have run into the message.

Though, to play devil's advocate... I remember there being nine (possibly more) sides to the whole Gate struggle, so maybe the "Grand Plan" is step 1 in Tarquin's side's plan to take the Gates? Not too much evidence, though.

Darth Hunterix

2010-11-22, 05:05 AM

-Gate
-Girard
-Sapphire Guard
-Soon

So, to find out about Girard this way, Tarquin would have had to ALREADY know Girard's name. Serious logic bomb! I think that chances are more likely that the physical description that he gives (which is what my OP theory is based on) might come from seeing the message than that he found out about Girard entirely through the message. Also, why would Tarquin ever find himself in "a completely random spot in the middle of the world's largest desert" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html) without prior reason to be?

Gate - is there ANY city in OotSverse without gates of some sort?
Sapphire - a gemstone, adventurers like gemstones.
Guard - every city's gate or gemstone's storage has some sort of a guard in front of it (or the guard may be something like Sapphire Golem, why not?)
soon - like I said before...

So only Girard is the unexplainable word here, but maybe they used some other, we don't know what else triggers the illusion.
Also other traps may not be in random spot. Probably Girard expected Soon to survive the explosion, so he prepared more traps in places which Soon would search in order to find Girard or his followers.

Firemeier

2010-11-22, 04:37 PM

There is always a chance that Girard is a member of Tarquin's party. Just because the Order of the Scribble broke up doesn't mean they all neccesarily gave up adventuring. Girard may have just found a new group to adventure with (possibly along with creating a new image for himself - he could be any one of the members we have seen so far being, an illusionist and all). His over-reaction-explosion in the desert says to me that he wouldn't neccesarily have had any problems belonging to a group that Tarquin would belong to.

I came up with something like that, too. Girard didn't seem to have as much of a problem with Soon's lawfulness, as with his stick-up-where-the sun-don't-shine mentality. Tarquin on the other hand has a much more... relaxed attitude towards morality.

And even if he doesn't turn out to be a member of Tarquin's party I think Girard may very well be playing the master of puppets behind the master of puppets. After all, when it comes to protecting the fabric of spacetime, having control over the three largest empires on the continent does seem to come in handy.

Also:

Actually, no. I am serious. It would be so awesome if, after years of speculation of Elan's surname, he turns out to be Elan Pineapple.

Can't be. His last name is obviously Fin-tim-lin-bin-whin-bim-lim-bus-stop-F'tang-F'tang-Olé-Biscuitbarrel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31FFTx6AKmU) :smallwink:

Lord Bingo

2010-11-22, 07:02 PM

I will concede that whatever may be the case Girard would have some interest in maintaining the current state of affairs on the western continent because it would make it hard for a third party to move an army across the continent without it being attacked by Tarquin and his allies.

I do, however, imagine that Girard is most likely affiliated with one of the nation Tarquin has not yet conquered and that this is how he knows Girard.

Geordnet

2010-11-22, 07:33 PM

Tarquin was one a tomb robber, right? So Girard's got this dungeon/tomb with the gate in it...

leakingpen

2010-11-23, 12:26 PM

Maybe Girard was one of the rulers whose kingdom Tarquin toppled. He could have him in a cell somewhere or had him executed.

Thats my thought. Hes in a jail cell.

Dire Moose

2010-11-23, 04:24 PM

Personally, I think Nale might have something to do with how Tarquin is aware of Girard. Out of everyone in the storyline so far, Nale actually has more potential to be in on Girard's secrets than anyone else.

Reasons:
-He grew up in the Western Continent and has obviously been wandering around there for quite a while after leaving Tarquin. He's probably seen and heard plenty of information that could hint at Girard in that time.
-Nale also knows everything about the gates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0378.html) that the OOTS does (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html).
-Shortly after learning the above information, the Linear Guild left to track down another gate somewhere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html).

I'm guessing that Nale put his knowledge of the Western Continent's legends and history together with what Lord Shojo told him and is after Girard's gate by now.

As for what Tarquin knows, his spies are likely aware that the Linear Guild is back in town and may well have figured out why they came back. Putting a bounty on their heads is probably Tarquin's way of forcing the Linear Guld to tell him what they know.

Firemeier

2010-11-23, 05:05 PM

Thats my thought. Hes in a jail cell.

I think that's not probable, simply for storytelling reasons: We already have a known character in Tarquin's prison, so it would'nt be appropriately dramatic for another character to be waiting for the plot in his jail cell.

I expect Girard to be playing an active role in this story arc, rather than just being incarcerated.

Thinking about it, please remind me why we all assume Girard is still alive, considering that Soon died a fairly long while ago?

Heksefatter

2010-11-23, 05:15 PM

Thinking about it, please remind me why we all assume Girard is still alive, considering that Soon died a fairly long while ago?

For my part...it is because there is nothing else to go by. If Girard is dead, he would reasonably either have established some sort of legacy, like Soon, to guard the gate or else a big, mostly self-maintaining dungeon of monsters and illusions. Neither of these seems very interesting or able to fit into the current plot organically. (Though the Tarquin-storyline so far has reminded me never to underestimate the Giant).

In-story, the closest thing we have to evidence for Girard being alive is Tarquin knowing of him and being able to describe his appearance. This is, admittedly, very weak.

AMJ

2010-11-23, 05:18 PM

... Girard probably wins in a fair fight, but Tarquin has a whole army and under-handed tactics at his disposal.

I think it is quite safe to assume that there will never be a fair fight involving any of the two gentlemen. :smallsmile:

Brightgalrs

2010-11-23, 05:49 PM

Crazy Speculation Alert
Tarquin stumbled upon a long-dead Girard's gate with his party during one of their dungeon excursions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html). Once he learned what the gates do he and his party agreed to stabilize and control the entire continent to protect it. T and his party see protecting the gate as a lawful act (presumably the majority of the T's party is lawful) but not necessarily a polarized good/evil act; after all they could be protecting the gate for selfish reasons (like not dieing). :smallwink:
Yes, yes I did just register to post this.

megabyter5

2010-11-23, 08:06 PM

The chances of Girard being in a jail cell are less than zero. He is an epic level illusionist with at least two levels in ranger, and he's ridiculously chaotic. Don't try to tell me he can't get out, and DON'T try to tell me he's staying of his own free will.

Geordnet

2010-11-23, 09:39 PM

I don't think that the entire (or even MOST of) Tarqin's party is lawful, just look at the OotS. Roy and Durkon are LG, but V's the only other one we don't definitively know is NOT lawful.

As for Girard, I'm thinking something like a Stasis field. I own a sourcebook with the perfect thing for it, a Cabnit of Stasis, the only downsides is that it's relatively immobile and someone ELSE has to pull you out.

Or maybe he's relaxing on some parallel plane with a permanent portal link back, that would fit his personality imo.

toughluck

2010-11-25, 06:23 PM

From my post in the #761 discussion thread:

Dashing swordsmen do not use armor. Yes, it's plausible that one of the requisites of being a DS is not wearing armor, but flashy clothes, but for all we know, the evil version of DS, be it "Dastardly Swordsman," "Magnificent Bastard," "Bastardly Swordsman", or just "Evil Overlord" may have the armor as a prerequisite to taking the class.

Providing that Julio is about the same age as Tarquin, it's impossible for Tarquin to have learned from Julio. It'd need to be dramatically appropriate, and I'm not seeing that it would be possible that Tarquin would meet Julio after splitting up with Elan and Nale's mother, so he would have had to learn DS earlier, and slip to the evil path on the way.

All of that would fit the Star Wars tropes (with a lot of artistic license, since following SW directly would lead to Tarquin necessarily learning from Julio and Julio from unnamed master, who would need to be killed by Mr. X in order for Julio to have an antagonist and Tarquin to have a second master):
1. Always two there are, good and evil.
2. They learn from the same master. Then said master is killed [by Tarquin].
3. Tarquin, distraught, seeks peace, but is unable to find any. He tries to settle down with Elan's mother.
4. She bears twins.
5. He leaves her soon afterwards, no real goodbyes.

The rest of the Star Wars themes we already know.

It's entirely possible that:
1. Julio and Tarquin learned to be DS from the same master.
2a. Tarquin betrayed the master and Julio couldn't do anything to stop Tarquin from killing said master, arriving just in the last second to see Tarquin dealing the deathblow.
2b. Tarquin grew jealous of Julio and almost killed him, but was interrupted by the master, who sacrificed himself to save Julio, who was left beaten, but alive.
3. This sets up possibility of a dramatic entrance for Julio right now, and -- why not -- him defeating Tarquin this time, possibly with Elan forced to decide between the two (maybe the two will fall from the balcony and grab the ledge and Elan would need to choose).

Now comes the best part:
The master was Girard. It fits quite well. Serini swooned over him, Girard was quick with the wit, he relied on illusions and is the only plausible counterpart to Elan in the Scribble party.
Tarquin obviously knew him and wasn't willing to divulge anything until it was dramatically appropriate.

martianmister

2010-11-25, 07:16 PM

1. Julio and Tarquin learned to be DS from the same master.

Julio learned to be DS from a book. There is no master.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html

toughluck

2010-11-26, 08:43 AM

Julio learned to be DS from a book. There is no master.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html
What if he felt ashamed and blamed himself for the master's demise? Or, *gasp!*, lied?!

iowaforever

2010-11-26, 08:47 PM

then why would he happen to have the book sitting on his ship?

toughluck

2010-11-27, 02:01 AM

then why would he happen to have the book sitting on his ship?
Two possibilities. The most obvious one and the one that's simplest to explain is that he wrote it. He'd refrain from admitting that because it would raise questions as to why exactly he wrote it in the first place.
Another possibility (which would require a backstory, though) is that the sourcebook has been handed down, master to pupil (or padawan, as the case may be), for as long as DS has been taught. Additionally, somebody must have been the original DS (and written the sourcebook) or it must have been handed down to the original DS from some divine source.

We don't know for certain that Julio is the original DS and he seems far too aware of the tropes which surround the mentor figure.

Onyavar

2010-11-27, 03:53 PM

Hi there, I'd like to share (again) my assumption that Girard and Tarquin work to opposing goals: Girard wants to set up Chaos on the Continent, and is most likely responsible for the constant conflict there. Tarquin on the contrary wants to control the continent, and since he knows of Girards secret plans, he has to play by Girards rules by constantly toppling his own empires. Maybe this is the only reason that Girard didn't remove Tarquin from "his" continent, or maybe Girard has really lost track of Tarquin. It is not completely unlikely that Tarquin once was hired by Girard, but I think he's trying to find a way out of the threat that Girard poses to him and bis six-man band.

For those who are already familiar with my speculations, I have to invent a new epileptic branch, so that I will not bore you: The Empress of Blood (Dragon) is somehow related to Girard Draketooth (with a dragon tatoo, the theories about Girard being a red dragon disciple have been beaten to death). If this would be true, there is a long story behind it, and the implications boggle my mind. There are certain clues to that, and it's not as far-fetched as "Haley is a celestial" or some other crazy shots. How come I never found this theory in any threads before? Someone MUST have thought of this before???

iowaforever

2010-11-28, 12:12 AM

but if it was passed down master to pupil, then how come he didn't give it to Elan?

Geordnet

2010-11-28, 12:23 AM

OMG guys I just thought of something... the timing. Tarquin was a tomb robber, but that was long before he tried to conquer the western continent. That means he was at the NORTHERN continent for at least a while.

Then I thought of what tombs we have, and there is one: KRAAGOR'S TOMB. What if Tarquin and his party robbed it... That would explain how Serini's journal got in Xykon's hands, especially since Xykon didn't actually reach Serini's/Kraagor's gate. Tarquin (and possibly his party too) stole it from the tomb, and from reading it is where Tarquin got his knowledge of Girard. He then later sold it to (or it was stolen by) Xykon, while Tarquin went off to conquer the western continent -possibly to secure the gate for himself.

toughluck

2010-11-28, 05:05 AM

but if it was passed down master to pupil, then how come he didn't give it to Elan?

What do you mean, he didn't? He did! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html)

In any case, before you ask why the book wasn't handed to Tarquin, I mentioned that Tarquin was the traitor and Girard may have passed the book down to Julio with his dying breath.

BTW, how would such books end up in the hands of PCs or NPCs, anyway? If anything, they would be exceedingly rare items, not just something that is randomly found (Certainly, I've never found any book with instructions how to hack the world to my will).