[3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

[Endarire]

We've had many threads about how (im)potent a class or a class feature is, but which classes strike a fair balance between I WIN and i wish i could do something?

[Psyren]

Anything in T3 really

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Anything in T3 really

Which is? :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

Which is? :smallconfused:

T3 stands for Tier 3 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0)

Useful at all levels, powerful and capable without being world-breaking.

[truemane]

Tier 3. As per JaronK's Tier System, which seeks to rate the relative power level of the classes according to how well they stack up against each other in terms of flexibility and utility and how well they can respond to a wide variety of situations.

Linky (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)

[Runestar]

The Warblade.

[Dracons]

Barbarian seems goood to me.

[Silva Stormrage]

I always thought the "specialized" casters felt balanced, such as Beguiler, War Mage and Dread Necromancer. They are easily the most balanced casters. I wish they made some more for the other schools of magic.

[Eleven]

You should be able to find a complete list here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9698040#post9698040). It is a list of high quality Tier 3 homebrew and published classes that should meet all roleplaying needs.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'd say Beguiler and DFA are overpowered at levels 1-2, though that's a small enough part of 1-20 to forgive them. DFA is tier 3, right?

[Silva Stormrage]

I'd say Beguiler and DFA are overpowered at levels 1-2, though that's a small enough part of 1-20 to forgive them. DFA is tier 3, right?

Two things.
One how is beguiler overpowered at level 1-2? Is it because they have a large selection of first level spells to choose from?

Two: What is a DFA?

[Temotei]

You should be able to find a complete list here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9698040#post9698040). It is a list of high quality Tier 3 homebrew and published classes that should meet all roleplaying needs.

Wasn't the ebon initiate given as a tier two class by ErrantX himself?

Anyway, I'd never go so far as to call that a complete list. There are countless creations that could easily fit into that list which aren't on it right now.

I like where you're going with the idea, though.


Two: What is a DFA?

Dragonfire adept.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Two things.
One how is beguiler overpowered at level 1-2? Is it because they have a large selection of first level spells to choose from?Well, the fact that they have fourteen first level spells known, including most of the batman wizard's level 1 spell list and much more, is a part of it. The fact that they cast from all of it spontaneously is another. The icing is that they also get a d6 hit die, casting in light armor, 6+int skill points from a great list, and even trapfinding to make the rogue go cry in a corner. To be honest, at level 1 there's not much a Cleric/Wizard/Rogue/Fighter team could cover that a Druid/Beguiler team couldn't except for action economy.

[Boci]

DFA is tier 3, right?

Nope tier 4, albeit closer to tier 3 than the warlock.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Nope tier 4, albeit closer to tier 3 than the warlock.I guess class power more naturally lies on a spectrum; we just chop it up into tiers to make sense of it. For instance, Beguiler is probably high Tier 3, and Druid is either high Tier 1 (off the shelf, lower level) or low Tier 1 (high op, high level).

[Coidzor]

I guess class power more naturally lies on a spectrum; we just chop it up into tiers to make sense of it. For instance, Beguiler is probably high Tier 3, and Druid is either high Tier 1 (off the shelf, lower level) or low Tier 1 (high op, high level).

yeah, iirc, barbarians are low tier 4 and fighters are high tier 5 (such that actual class features, zhentarim soldier/dungeoncrasher send 'em into tier 4)

[grimbold]

most ToB stuff is ok
Barbarian is good and stays just right especially with PrCs.
Rogues are of course appropriate.
So are scouts.
Most t3-t4 stuff is good

some edited/strengthened t5 stuff can also be good (ex PF fighter)

[Kylarra]

I'd say Beguiler and DFA are overpowered at levels 1-2, though that's a small enough part of 1-20 to forgive them. DFA is tier 3, right?I'm not sure why DFA would be overpowered at levels 1-2, even with entangling exhalation for the increased breath damage.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'm not sure why DFA would be overpowered at levels 1-2, even with entangling exhalation for the increased breath damage.It's damage + entangle, at will. Always-on abilities are at a premium at low levels, and EE breath is almost as good as one of the wizard's spells.

[true_shinken]

Well, DFAs can destroy the whole world with a standard action at level 1. I'd call that overpowered.

[Boci]

Well, DFAs can destroy the whole world with a standard action at level 1. I'd call that overpowered.

Why stop there? Burn a feat to get knowledge (the planes) as a class skill.

[FelixG]

Well, DFAs can destroy the whole world with a standard action at level 1. I'd call that overpowered.

If thats your basis for calling them overpowered lets throw Paladin on that list as well :P

[true_shinken]

If thats your basis for calling them overpowered lets throw Paladin on that list as well :P

DFA can make it by accident, that's the thing.
'I took Clinging Breath and Extend Breath, they seemed so useful.
...
...
...wait a second, there is no limit to how long I can extend/make it cling?!'

[Boci]

DFA can make it by accident, that's the thing.
'I took Clinging Breath and Extend Breath, they seemed so useful.
...
...
...wait a second, there is no limit to how long I can extend/make it cling?!'

Don't you need enlarge/widen? Extend just make it last in its area for longer.

[true_shinken]

Don't you need enlarge/widen? Extend just make it last in its area for longer.

Oh, Enlarge Breath, that's it.

[Kylarra]

Oh I see, TO dubious cheese does indeed break classes. Not a problem inherently with the DFA, just the player.

[Flickerdart]

Oh I see, TO dubious cheese does indeed break classes. Not a problem inherently with the DFA, just the player.
There's nothing dubious about metabreath feat cheese.

[Kylarra]

There's nothing dubious about metabreath feat cheese.Clinging, no, enlarge, yes, and frankly "cheese that can go off at level 1" doesn't make sense in the context of "overpowered at level 1-2, but fine 3-20".


It's damage + entangle, at will. Always-on abilities are at a premium at low levels, and EE breath is almost as good as one of the wizard's spells.Eh, I'm not convinced. While entangle is decently good against the right opponents, it's not a full shutdown in the same vein as color spray, or sleep or grease.

[Amphetryon]

To answer Endarire's original query, I think Dread Necromancer strikes the straightest, truest balance between 'I win' and 'I wish I could do something (at this level),' for my preferred playstyle.

[Fouredged Sword]

I will go out there and say most of the classes that get some skill points + focused class skill list + focused spell casting + class features are mostly balanced, doubly so when you compare them apples to apples with eachother.

[Foryn Gilnith]

There's nothing dubious about metabreath feat cheese.
Indeed; "If a metabreath feat stacks with itself, this fact will be noted in the Special section of the feat description." Nothing uncertain or doubtful about whether or not Enlarge Breath can be stacked.

[Critical]

DFA can't take the metabreath feats by RAW because he doesn't have the recharge time, also, it's said in the official FAQ that the DFA can't use them with the class breath weapon. So yeah, DFA is a good bet here.

[Boci]

DFA can't take the metabreath feats by RAW because he doesn't have the recharge time, also, it's said in the official FAQ that the DFA can't use them with the class breath weapon. So yeah, DFA is a good bet here.

FAQ isn't RAW, and arguably they do have a recharge time expressed in rounds: 0. Besides, the handbook notes there is a way to turn that into 1, making metabreath feats legal.

[true_shinken]

FAQ isn't RAW, and arguably they do have a recharge time expressed in rounds: 0. Besides, the handbook notes there is a way to turn that into 1, making metabreath feats legal.

Or just take some other breath weapon to qualify an apply the effect to DFA's. I believe dragonborn works.

[Thefurmonger]

Or just take some other breath weapon to qualify an apply the effect to DFA's. I believe dragonborn works.

So wait, your useing a Racial workaround, and feats from another book that were never ment for DFA due to the recharge issue, and ignoring the FAQ as "Not RAW"

And thats what makes the DFA broken?

[CockroachTeaParty]

Although I still need to do more testing, the Binder seems relatively balanced at all levels. I get the feeling that they start to fall behind from about level 5 to 8, but once they can bind more than one vestige they start to get better options. Still, I need to witness them 'in action' before I can make such a call with any certainty.

Oddly, I find Wilders are at precisely the right power level at all levels. Sure, they have barely any powers known, but if you take the alternate class feature that gives them Expanded Knowledge several times, that helps, and Wild Surge is not to be trifled with, for blasting purposes especially.

[Psyren]

Oddly, I find Wilders are at precisely the right power level at all levels. Sure, they have barely any powers known, but if you take the alternate class feature that gives them Expanded Knowledge several times, that helps, and Wild Surge is not to be trifled with, for blasting purposes especially.

The DSP Wilder (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/wilder) scares me, and the Educated Wilder ACF works with them too. :smalleek:

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I think the Incarnate and Totemist could be added to this list. They have excellent versatility and can be quite capable in combat, at all levels.