[4e] Epic Tier Powers

[DragonBaneDM]

Hey guys, just wanted to get a feel for how much we, as a Playground, know about Epic Tier.

To give us some talking points:

What do you guys think the best striker powers in the whole game are for...

Your Level 22 Utility

aaaaand

25 Daily.


Right meow I'm looking at Channeled Vitality and Shield of Providence for the Utility. Master of the Hunt is good, but not everyone has Wis.

No clue on the Daily though. Reaper's Stance's damage bonus is fighter power only, right? Even then, not everyone has a good Dex.

Thoughts?

[tcrudisi]

May I ask what you are looking for exactly? Are you just wanting powers that anyone can use? If so, those won't be the best for each class, just the best powers that can be used efficiently by everyone. Or did you have a specific class in mind?

[DragonBaneDM]

Just working on my Archer ranger right now.

But I am looking for general advice as well. I lose a lot of my optimizing steam in Epic. I feel like I use all my best gimmicks in Paragon, so Epic is just rough for me.

[tcrudisi]

Shield of Providence is not very good. In fact, it's not even good. It's bad. It 1) uses your interrupt (which is important for a Ranger) and 2) only activates when you get hit by a close or area attack, which won't trigger in many combats. Also, 3) when it does trigger, it gives you paltry extra damage (11 on average) for one attack and decreases the damage you take by half. Color me unimpressed.

Channeled Vitality is better but still not particularly great. It gives you extra damage for a short time once per day and helps you survive a little bit.

If you have a good Str score, Platinum Scales is made of win. You won't get hit for an entire encounter.

If you have a good Wis, Master of the Hunt is amazing.

It's a leaderish power, but if you have a good Cha (or heck, even if you don't) then Climactic Chord is awesome. Yeah, you aren't the one doing the damage... but you enable everyone else to make a free attack for a minor. Win.

Ditto for Rush of Power (except Int or Cha). It's ... awesome.

I'm sure there are some more, but those are the 4 that really stick out in my mind.

As for the 25's, well, I'll get around to those later when I'm not feeling so lazy.

[Blackfang108]

Why is the interrupt so important for the Ranger?

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought Interrupts were more important for Defenders than Strikers.

[Meta]

Why is the interrupt so important for the Ranger?

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought Interrupts were more important for Defenders than Strikers.

Interrupts that add damage are great for strikers. All their damage dealing items, feats, traits, etc. get used again off their turn.

Think of why a minor action attack is good for a striker. Same reasons for an interrupt

[Mando Knight]

Why is the interrupt so important for the Ranger?

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought Interrupts were more important for Defenders than Strikers.

You are correct. Unless a Ranger specifically takes powers or magic items with Immediate Action timing, they won't use that action type, unlike most Defenders, who need an Immediate Action for retaliating against enemies that attack their allies. Some Leader and Controller builds also have good Immediate action options... but generally not Rangers.

That said, most of the "good" limited-use Ranger powers are at least one of the following:
1.) Not a Standard Action, allowing you to Twin Strike that round
2.) Effectively Twin Strike, but with a couple of bonuses here or there
3.) Offer some means of boosting Twin Strike, especially for a period longer than one round if it's a Standard Action

Why? Because Ranger optimization, whether it's Archer, Two-Blade, or something else, is fairly simple. Boost your attack and damage modifiers as high as you can and Twin Strike until everything is dead.

[Meta]

I would disagree that a Defender's reactions or interrupts are inherently more important.

For instance a high level paladin might do 19 damage with DC to an opponent who violated his mark. A ranger of around that level may do triple that with a damage-oriented interrupt.

Heck I know OP has an interrupt that saves 14 damage off an attack from team monster once every encounter. I wouldn't rate that power as inherently better than his more offensive interrupts

[Gralamin]

I would disagree that a Defender's reactions or interrupts are inherently more important.

For instance a high level paladin might do 19 damage with DC to an opponent who violated his mark. A ranger of around that level may do triple that with a damage-oriented interrupt.

Heck I know OP has an interrupt that saves 14 damage off an attack from team monster once every encounter. I wouldn't rate that power as inherently better than his more offensive interrupts

Errr, Divine Challenge is a no-action, as in it just happens and the Paladin can still take an interrupt. That is significantly better then an interrupt, since it leaves it able to be used.

That said, please note the easy to miss rule that you cannot use immediate actions on your own turn - only on others.

[Meta]

My b, just picked a damaging defender 'mark' that came to mind. Even if you take say the shielding swordmage aegis (commonly considered to be quite strong) and reduce a dozen damage with it, this isn't as useful if you can kill the monster with an interrupt.

[Mando Knight]

Those are At-Will Immediate actions. Of course they're going to be less useful than Encounter or Daily Immediate actions, which are what nearly all Striker ones are. A Striker using non-Standard-Action attack powers is good Action Economy balancing. A Defender using his retaliation class feature is just doing his job. At the same level of optimization, Defenders can use their retaliation ability and add to it in one Immediate action at roughly the same frequency (Encounter or Daily).

[Meta]

Those are At-Will Immediate actions. Of course they're going to be less useful than Encounter or Daily Immediate actions, which are what nearly all Striker ones are. A Striker using non-Standard-Action attack powers is good Action Economy balancing. A Defender using his retaliation class feature is just doing his job. At the same level of optimization, Defenders can use their retaliation ability and add to it in one Immediate action at roughly the same frequency (Encounter or Daily).

This is only a fair comparison if you consider:

A) the defender's only triggers if it's the better option for the monster and thus, more unreliable.
B) the striker will be doing more with their standard action attack as well, so the balance is not even.

I'm not saying striker interrupts are stronger I'm saying I think you're incorrect in saying the Defender's inherently are

[tcrudisi]

Unless a Ranger specifically takes powers or magic items with Immediate Action timing, they won't use that action type... Some Leader and Controller builds also have good Immediate action options... but generally not Rangers.

I played an epic level Ranger, and yes, I'm an optimizer. Since I created the character at level 21, I didn't get to play him up to that level. So when I started playing, I quickly realized: "oh crap, I have too many immediate actions." I couldn't use them all. Granted, I did have to take some defensive-oriented powers since I could not rely on the defender. Regardless: I now make sure I don't have too many immediate actions as a Ranger. You have one by default in Disruptive Strike. (You DO still have Disruptive Strike, I hope.)

Granted, I was also limited to "PHB1 only" when creating my character which made Arrow of Vengeance the best level 17 encounter power.

[Mando Knight]

I'm not saying striker interrupts are stronger I'm saying I think you're incorrect in saying the Defender's inherently are

Did I say that? What I said was that a Defender needs to keep his Immediate open because it's vital to part of his core function, so if the Defender's player chooses a higher-level Immediate power, then it's because he sees merit in that power: whether it can be used in addition to the Defender's existing class feature, provides a better benefit than the Defender's class feature, and so forth. The Striker, however, generally chooses an Immediate action power because he can. A Striker Immediate action power, in general, will be weaker than the same-level Standard action powers as a stand-alone because it can be used at the same time as a Standard action power. If the Striker and has an opening for an Immediate action, then he will generally take the Immediate action power unless he judges one of the other powers as superior (that is, the Immediate action has a rare trigger, or a trigger that overlaps with other Immediate action powers in his possession). However, a Defender needs to be more cautious about choosing Immediate powers, since the threat of his retaliation feature--in all cases but one (the Paladin) an Immediate action for activation--is a large part of what keeps enemies focused on him.

In general, when looking at a power (mostly Immediates, but other powers as well), you need to look at the frequency of the trigger in your group (if applicable, as only Free and Immediate action powers have triggers) and the effect of that power in relation to any other powers you have in that action category, and then compare that analysis to that of the other powers competing for the same slot. A Striker will usually find himself struggling harder to justify selecting a weak Standard Action attack power instead of a weak Immediate action power than a Defender will, simply because even though both will usually find their Standard Actions filled each turn, the Defender usually already has an Immediate Action that he will want to have available from turn to turn while the Striker doesn't.