OOTS #759 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Ashtar]

Yes he did need them.

Awesome. Thanks!

[cheezewizz2000]

Huh, V was wrong about how many slaves they could free.

Count the points of light. V was out by 7.

[shiram]

It is all coming together now, and i liked that this one came so soon after the last one, it kinda helps keep a decent pace in the story.

Can you say epic father son brawl?

[tomandtish]

Just ... Wow. Well, that should be blunt enough for even Elan. No rationalizing that one away. That should settle the "Dad's not evil" arguments" (but probably won't).

[Onlyhestands]

Nice and brutal. I have to say Elan's dad is probably one of my favorite characters.

[Psyren]

Tarquin is a prick. :smallannoyed:

[DrakeRaids]

I still think he's true neutral :smallbiggrin:

[Shale]

By Jove, I think he's got it.

[jpreem]

Well that was definetly Evill with a very capital E. I actually could even forgive this empire building stuff- the place has been in a bunch of pointless and bloody wars anyway - so a little scheming warring and backstabbing that could eventually lead to some stability aint so bad - maybe evil but maybe have some stuff to exonerate a bit.
This one is but hilariously obvious - GIGANTIC FLAMING LETTERS spelling I'M AN EVIL *************************************************! !!

edit: a long line of asterix-s ( how ever is the plural of asterix) for it really needs a long-and-winding not so decent name for a guy like that.
Also nice way to finally put the evil-not-evil alignment debate of Tarquin down for good. ( at least I hope so, there might bee some Goodkind fans on board :smallbiggrin:)

[Drakonzeta]

.... Oh. Oh my.

[Coliumbos]

So... didn't call it, but took long enough!

[Laws of Chaos]

{scrubbed}

[Conuly]

:smalleek:

All their hard work, Haley and V! OMG.

Also, while Tarquin was always obviously evil, this seems a bit more, well, evilly evil than I anticipated. I'll just :smalleek: again.

[Yana]

Since Elan doesn't seem to be too inclined at the moment...

"Dun Dun DUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNH!"

[Meta]

Nice Comic! Poor elan tho....

[Shale]

This comic is a milestone: Tarquin is now more blind to his son's alignment than Elan is to his father's. Apple didn't fall far from the tree in some ways.

[HannahJean]

Oh, poor Elan.
NIce comic, though! Is Tarquin a Nero?

[MrRigger]

BWAHAHAHAHAHA! I know that that's pretty horrific, what with people being staked down and set ablaze, but holy crap on a stick, I laughed so hard when I saw that.

MrRigger

[Morty]

Poor Elan.
I do think it was a little excessive, though. Up until now, Tarquin has seemed more like the "Do whatever it takes to get what I want" kind of evil than the "Light people on fire to get a neat sign" kind.

[cheezewizz2000]

Oh, poor Elan.
NIce comic, though! Is Tarquin a Nero?

I doubt that Tarquin will play fiddle while his city burns. Tarquin is more likely to be holding the torch...

[warmachine]

Jesus tapping dancing Christ. That's not just killing rebels to keep an ordered society, that's inflicting prolonged, hideous pain for evil amusement.

[Killer Angel]

Oh, man... I love this comic.
It was simply perfect. Thanks, mr. Burlew. :smallsmile:

[Haruki-kun]

Elan's expresion.... Priceless.

Great comic!

[hamishspence]

Wow.

The last time I saw that kind of thing in fiction- was in Warhammer- Manfred Von Carstein- one of the most ruthless and cunning of the Warhammer vampires.

[Mordae]

Other shoe, meet floor--with velocity!

[hamishspence]

For sudden, shocking, major evil acts- this one ranks up there with:

"Follow the bouncing ball"

and

"Familicide"

[Aotrs Commander]

And this is the sign of a good villain. Affable, pleasent, likeably - and utterly Evil. I like his style!

Thank you Giant, that's two paragons of villainitude you've given us! (Xykon being the first.)

Three if you count Belkar...

[Squirrel_Token]

Oops. :smalleek:

[Cicciograna]

:smalleek:

No, I mean :eek:

[goldgecko4]

My first thought was "Man, Tarquin uses slaves for everything, including synchronized torch-holding!" Then... damn, Tarquin, that's cold.

[Drakonzeta]

Part of me wonders if the letters even are 200ft tall. Nice title, though.

[eggynack]

Wow... that was awesome. If I'm not mistaken this comic has an all new facial expression, just for that hilarious level of surprise.

[King of Nowhere]

When i saw the flaming letters, I immediately tougth they were people on fire or something...
those last two updates were absolutely fantastic, even for the standards of this comic

[Mordaenor]

Does anyone else feel an overpowering need to take a shower? Preferably with ssome industrial strength cleaning agent?

[Prospekt]

Neat, a dancing lights spe- WAIT A MINUTE. :smalleek:

Boy Tarquin, you have outdone yourself.

[Uncle Casw]

Looks like Haley and V freed 3 more slaves than V's prediction.

Also, :smalleek:

[Symmys]

My reaction:
:eek:

:furious:

:smallfrown:

[Bedinsis]

I second Elan's expression in the last panel.

Also, it appears Elan will have to share his experiences of "trying to improve, but accidentally making it worse" with Haley and Vaarsuvius.

[John Cribati]

I feel bad to admit that I found Elan's face hilarious.

[Drakonzeta]

Tarquin no longer deserves to be eaten by the Empress. He deserves to be disintegrated, then each particle of dust fed to a spider, each spider fed to a fish, each fish fed to a dog, each dog fed to an orc, each orc fed to a shark, each shark fed to a dragon, and each dragon fed to a random godzilla monster. That is not the only way to deal with Tarquin that deserves his evil. I wonder about Malack now...

[ColourDeaf]

My first thought was "Man, Tarquin uses slaves for everything, including synchronized torch-holding!" Then... damn, Tarquin, that's cold.

I would think it was rather warm, actually.

Mmmm... evil: it keeps you toasty.

[Estelindis]

Oh God. That's horrendous. :smalleek: Elan's expression is how I feel.

(How Rich manages to express such a wide range of emotions via stick figures still amazes me. You'd think there were certain boundaries that couldn't be exceeded... Then Elan's face in this comic does that. Solely as a function of changing the shape of his mouth to make it more, um, wibbly. Wow.)

[hamishspence]

I second Elan's expression in the last panel.

I'm not sure, but I don't think quite that expression of open-mouthed horror, has ever appeared in the comic before.

[HalfTangible]

Ok, who honestly expected THAT phrase to come back?

[Deme]

I love the progression of Elan's feelings in the last few strips... And I feel so bad for him. Elan was never stupid enough to think what his father was doing was right (except when he was oblivious in general)... But now, he knows; this isn't just his father doing bad things because he thinks it's best, it isn't his dad being made to do bad things... It's his father being a bad person, and today, it's for him.

It's a sad little roller coaster, though it's one I saw coming.

Also, I love Elan's expression in the last panel.

[hamishspence]

I wouldn't be surprised if Complete Monster, and a link to this strip, goes up on the TV Tropes OOTS Characters page, for Tarquin, after this.

[The Shadow]

OK, I really have to wonder if Tarquin is really *that* oblivious to Elan's alignment.

Is he trying to force a confrontation here? Yet he has this ghastly... Well, 'innocence' is *definitely* the wrong word, but you know what I mean... about him. Like he honestly expects Elan to be impressed and pleased.

[Laketh Stadt]

Ouch, that pretty undeniable.
Whats the next trope called where the good character does an out of character evil act to rid the world of a greater evil?

[Mordaenor]

OK, I really have to wonder if Tarquin is really *that* oblivious to Elan's alignment.


I concur on this one. My reaction was, "Well, now we know where Elan gets his tenuous grasp of reality from."

[Weimann]

Well, it is a very effective medium of communication, your 200-feet-tall flaming letters, no arguing there. Get's the point across.

Elan might have been blind to his father's alignment, but damn it if it doesn't go both ways. That or Tarquin just doesn't know any other way of doing it. He could at least have shut up about it.

Actually, with his Genre Savvy, I can't shake the idea he knew he was the villain and just played the part as well as he could.

[Shale]

Is he trying to force a confrontation here? Yet he has this ghastly... Well, 'innocence' is *definitely* the wrong word, but you know what I mean... about him. Like he honestly expects Elan to be impressed and pleased.

Which is insane, when you consider Elan's background (raised by a Chaotic Good woman in a backwater village), occupation (hero) and character classes, even if he hasn't learned anything from actually talking to his son and observing his personality.

[Ganurath]

Aw, it's not that bad. There are over 22 pyres, so that means they were dismembered before being set on fire. They aren't being burned alive, they're being cremated!

[rman]

Huzza (cheer)

For the magnificent bastard that is Tarqin. and for the pace of updates.

[tcrudisi]

That was heart-wrenching.

Giant, I really need another comic right now. One that's funny and can make me laugh. That comic was so depressing.

Of course, that just means you have done an excellent job with your writing that I'm so invested in the characters... but damn. Ouch.

[Mordaenor]

Ouch, that pretty undeniable.
Whats the next trope called where the good character does an out of character evil act to rid the world of a greater evil?

I believe the trope is entitled "Elan opens up can of whoopass on Daddy"

[suszterpatt]

This, together with the last strip, is excellent stuff even by Burlew's standards.

*golf clap*

[rewinn]

OK, I really have to wonder if Tarquin is really *that* oblivious to Elan's alignment.

Is he trying to force a confrontation here? Yet he has this ghastly... Well, 'innocence' is *definitely* the wrong word, but you know what I mean... about him. Like he honestly expects Elan to be impressed and pleased.

Well, a recurring minor stickTheme is that people who are in many ways competent often don't understand why others don't feel the way they do. Belkar often complains about this sort of thing.

I wonder if T really understands that Elan equally Good and Chaotic. The two have been together only a really short time, during which there have been several little tests, e.g. the Evil Banquet, the Parade of Evil. T may have reason to believe that, whatever Elan's alignment may be, E may be nudged into Evil pretty easily. Indeed, what evidence has E given to T that he is "Good" at all?

====

P.S. this was easily the most icky OOTS of all.

Yes, the Familicide killed more innocent creatures, as did the fall of Azure City. And Team Evil has done a lot of dreadful, dreadful things. But there's something especially repellent about this particular torture session. I commend The Giant for excellent writing but TOTAL EUUUUUWWWWW!

[NotNale]

Ouch. That's painfully sad.

I love how Rich makes you feel for the characters, Tarquin as well as Elan. We begin with Tarquin getting all moony over his long-lost son, and hoping they can 'repair' their relationship and be together forever (kind of an 'awww' moment), and end with the now-even-more horrifying (because we just sympathized with him) realization that he's a monster.

Poor Elan.

[Aliquid]

OK, I really have to wonder if Tarquin is really *that* oblivious to Elan's alignment.

Is he trying to force a confrontation here? Yet he has this ghastly... Well, 'innocence' is *definitely* the wrong word, but you know what I mean... about him. Like he honestly expects Elan to be impressed and pleased.

I actually think he is more oblivious to his *own* alignment. I don't think he believes that he is evil. He thinks that what he does it totally rational, practical and acceptable. He thinks that any intelligent person would agree with his decisions.

"Why would Elan have a problem with this, I didn't do anything inappropriate"

[Irbis]

I hope so, there might bee some Goodkind fans on board :smallbiggrin:

In Goodkind universe Tarquin would have been LG :P


Poor Elan.
I do think it was a little excessive, though. Up until now, Tarquin has seemed more like the "Do whatever it takes to get what I want" kind of evil than the "Light people on fire to get a neat sign" kind.

This. Though, that's what you get when you combine Elan's love of theatrics with no moral scruples. What is the better way to show slaves the rebellions would be punished?

Oh, and that also settled the matter with V's and Haley's thoughtless, ill-conceived self-indulgence exercise. I don't say they haven't had good intentions, but really, trying to "free" slaves without any kind of plan or without supplying them with means of survival could have ended in this way, only. I mean, "freeing" them in this way was almost evil.

Now, the question is, what Elan will do? Will he play along to get the info out of his dad, and potentially try to redeem him (after all, his plan could be for greater good), or will he ruin everything by denouncing him on the spot in his usual childlike way? They can all end up in the arena if Tarquin reacts in similar style as Nale.

[Seerow]

This one is but hilariously obvious - GIGANTIC FLAMING LETTERS spelling I'M AN EVIL

It doesn't spell "I AM AN EVIL ********************" it spells "ELAN" can't you read? :p




That said, I don't necessarily classify this as an evil act. In most cultures that practice slavery, a slave trying to escape spells death. Sure, it might be more traditional for it to take place at the end of a rope, but burning isn't completely unheard of. And if the guy wants to do it with style? Well more power to him, I'm more impressed that he even though to try it.

If you're gonna kill someone regardless, may as well make their death mean something.

[phantomreader42]

Ok, who honestly expected THAT phrase to come back?

Haley's a future psychic like Roy! :elan:

[ericgrau]

As always Rich has impressive depth on his evil characters. Realistic evil always has a justification.

[the Riddler]

After this one, I disturbingly find myself loving Tarquin more than ever. :tongue:

[pendell]

He ... burned the escaped slaves alive a la Nero?

That ... that's horrible. Moral Event Horizon is crossed. So Elan finally clued in , did he?

I hope we get through this quickly. I'm enjoying the strip for it's drama, but please, PLEASE cut it out with the so-called humor.

Rape and torture are not funny.

Burning people alive is not funny.

Trying to make it funny is a jarring note. But thank God even Elan has a limit to what denial can achieve.

On the plus side, thanks for the update!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Mordaenor]

Oh, and that also settled the matter with V's and Haley's thoughtless, ill-conceived self-indulgence exercise. I don't say they haven't had good intentions, but really, trying to "free" slaves without any kind of plan or without supplying them with means of survival could have ended in this way, only. I mean, "freeing" them in this way was almost evil.

Actually, I have a funny feeling, Tarquin might have done this anyway. Having the slaves freed simply meant the added hassle of hunting them down. But obviously, that's simple speculation.

[tcrudisi]

I'd like to comment on Elan's improved Wisdom. In panel 8, he shows a keen insight with the realizations of the importance of his past actions. I don't expect him to sustain that level of insight, but I do expect (and partially hope) that he'll be just a little bit wiser in future comics.

Considering the emotional direction these last couple of strips have taken and add in the fact that Belkar will die soon, I wonder if the comic is being taken in a new direction? Less humor, more emotion.

[Gwynfrid]

Ouch, ouch, ouch. Poor Elan. I mean, character growth is usually pretty painful, but in his case it's incredibly cruel.

I love it how Tarquin is so Elan-like, and at the same time his exact opposite. Very well done, Giant, Sir.

[tcrudisi]

I hope we get through this quickly. I'm enjoying the strip for it's drama, but please, PLEASE cut it out with the so-called humor.

Rape and torture are not funny.

Burning people alive is not funny.

Trying to make it funny is a jarring note. But thank God even Elan has a limit to what denial can achieve.

I really don't think the Giant was trying to make this scene funny. Nothing about it screamed "funny" to me, not even an attempt at it. Instead, I think he was trying to take us on an emotional roller coaster - first with the angst Elan was feeling, then with the father-son connection, then with Elan's realization. I don't think that even the Giant could have put a joke in there without hurting the impact of the ride. No, this was not a joke strip. Not at all.

Some people may be laughing at it, but with all due respect to them, they are not the type of people that I want to share a Sunday afternoon picnic with. (Now a Friday evening picnic? Sure...)

[V Junior]

Wow. Just... wow. I was impressed with Tarquin and all he'd done up until this point, but now? Tarquin is pure, unadultered evil. He's stooping down to the levels of Xykon now.

Controlling almost the entire Western Continent? Impressive.
Allowing all kinds of evil to occur? Evil, but with style.
Keeping slaves? Despicable, but we still like him.
Killing innocents who thought they'd escaped in one of the most horrific, painful and drawn-out ways possible? Pure, pure evil.

Tarquin is perhaps one of the evillest characters in the series. He's beyond redeemable, beyond not caring. This is a man who goes out of his way to commit horrific acts, simply because he's that much of a jerk. Elan's face in the last panel says it all.

I feel so, so sorry for Elan. He's probably wondered about his dad his whole life, and now that he finally meets him, he discovers that Tarquin is worse then Nale.

Yeah. Some may still like Tarquin, but I just can't sympathise with him after this.

@pendell: This strip is not humourous. This strip is to showcase how evil Tarquin is.

[Leliel]

...It is wrong I find this darkly hilarious?

It's like the Happy Tree Friends of evil dictators.

I guess it's because I already realized Tarquin is scum, and this whole misguided attempt to work with his son is just showing how warped his priorities are.

[Somewhere]

Stylish; Tarquin's my favourite OOTS villain now.

[Irbis]

Actually, I have a funny feeling, Tarquin might have done this anyway. Having the slaves freed simply meant the added hassle of hunting them down. But obviously, that's simple speculation.

Ech, I don't know. Slaves are valuable. It's only when they start to rebel they become a liability and are punished (and that wasn't actually the most evil punishment our ancestors has in store in history for escaped slaves).

I guess he would have done something really "spectacular", maybe like importing some prisoners from that recently conquered city, but then again, there's 50% chance he would have simply used fire elementals, like in that one strip some time ago. Still, the fault on victims choice lands squarely on V and Haley, who not even made sure the slaves can really escape. Good-ish, my behind.

[Mordokai]

That said, I don't necessarily classify this as an evil act. In most cultures that practice slavery, a slave trying to escape spells death. Sure, it might be more traditional for it to take place at the end of a rope, but burning isn't completely unheard of. And if the guy wants to do it with style? Well more power to him, I'm more impressed that he even though to try it.

If you're gonna kill someone regardless, may as well make their death mean something.

If you don't see this as an evil act, despite the reasons you provided... that means all my hope in humanity and any possible lingering goodness in it, no matter how small it may have been until now, has just exhaled it's last breath. And it was one of suffering.

[Locnil]

I was wondering why the server was down for 15 minutes.:smalltongue: Still, this comic was entirely worth it.


If you don't see this as an evil act, despite the reasons you provided... that means all my hope in humanity and any possible lingering goodness in it, no matter how small it may have been until now, has just exhaled it's last breath. And it was one of suffering.

I agree here. Granted, according to the circumstances killing escaped slaves may be justified, burning them alive never is. At the very least, he could have killed them first then set them on fire.

[Somewhere]

Would it have been any less evil if he simply beheaded the re-captured slaves and hung their heads around town as warning?

[Shale]

Somewhat, yeah. Causing pain and suffering just for the hell of it - like, I don't know, lighting someone on fire and letting them burn alive - is pretty damn Evil.

[Crisis21]

Wow. Tarquin is a magnificent bastard.

That was a great scene, in a horrifying way, making Tarquin such an irredeemable monster that even Elan can't deny it. Classic 'Kick The Dog' (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KickTheDog) moment

Absolutely fantastic.

[Seerow]

If you don't see this as an evil act, despite the reasons you provided... that means all my hope in humanity and any possible lingering goodness in it, no matter how small it may have been until now, has just exhaled it's last breath. And it was one of suffering.

Dead is dead. Why does the manner of death matter so much?

Also, his comments don't explicitly state they were alive when nailed into position and burned. Had they been killed via arrows, or hung, before being burned as a pyre make the act seem less evil to you?


Either way, escaped slaves being put to death is nothing new, and hardly restricted to only evil people. In any culture practicing slavery, this is very much expected. If you want to denounce entire cultures as evil for practicing such, that's your own business.

[Roland Itiative]

Sweet, first time the comic is updated while I'm browsing the site :smallbiggrin: And I a bad person for stopping to count the number of slaves just to see if V was right a few strips ago? :smallconfused:

Anyway, awesome strip, Rich really can make even the most atrocious villain have a human side you can relate to... And Elan's realisation was a great piece of foreshadowing by Haley :smalltongue:

[Irbis]

Somewhat, yeah. Causing pain and suffering just for the hell of it - like, I don't know, lighting someone on fire and letting them burn alive - is pretty damn Evil.

"For the hell of it"? :smallconfused:

It is a deterrent. The larger the shock, the bigger the deterrent. Killing them humanely wouldn't deter anyone.

Plus, I've read the strip again, and, is there a mention they were buried alive? 'Nailing' them in the right spot, could mean dead, or passed out from the pain.

[DoctorIllithid]

General Tarquin is the villain we should all aspire to be. Cunning, cold, ruthless, and efficent. And all for the greater good, to top it off. There's no place for rebelious slaves in the Empire. I would've thrown them in the arena, but I like Tarquin's idea better.

Keep on truckin', Tarquin! Peace and order, no matter what the cost!

[rewinn]

Dead is dead. Why does the manner of death matter so much?
....
Either way, escaped slaves being put to death is nothing new, and hardly restricted to only evil people. In any culture practicing slavery, this is very much expected. If you want to denounce entire cultures as evil for practicing such, that's your own business.

Torture is a crime of universal jurisdiction for a reason.

And as for slavery being intrinsically evil: the answer is yes.

[Half-Orc Rage]

It's kind of like when the Joker does something really sick and demented, and you know it's incredibly wrong, but still entertaining, you know? Seriously, Nale has nothing on his dad, Tarquin just hit Vlad Tepes levels of evil right there.

I wonder if the people still trying to say that Tarquin isn't evil are trolls, or if they actually believe you can somehow justify that kind of action.

[Locnil]

Also, his comments don't explicitly state they were alive when nailed into position and burned.

So why did they have to be nailed? If they were dead the bodies could just have been laid down and burned, and from that distance you can't really tell the difference. You can't even tell what they are.

[Reverent-One]

I guess he would have done something really "spectacular", maybe like importing some prisoners from that recently conquered city, but then again, there's 50% chance he would have simply used fire elementals, like in that one strip some time ago. Still, the fault on victims choice lands squarely on V and Haley, who not even made sure the slaves can really escape. Good-ish, my behind.

What? The fault on victims choice is 100% Tarquin's. You don't know how much Haley and V did to help the slaves get away, the EoB soldiers could've just been really good/lucky.

[Somewhere]

So why did they have to be nailed? If they were dead the bodies could just have been laid down and burned, and from that distance you can't really tell the difference. You can't even tell what they are.

My reading of it is that they were nailed to vertical boards. Pre-killed or not, gonna need to be nailed or hung to stay up.

[tcrudisi]

Dead is dead. Why does the manner of death matter so much?

Well, let's ask you that question. Would you rather die by: 1) being beheaded or 2) being nailed into position and then being lit on fire? Given the option, I'm sure most of us would pick #1. It has a lot less suffering involved. Considering that Tarquin chose the method that involves the most suffering?

True, we don't know for sure that the slaves were alive when lit on fire, but since they were nailed to something and then lit on fire, it implies they were still alive. After all, why not just make a typical pyre if they were already dead? Furthermore, Tarquin did have a smug look to him and obviously got enjoyment from nailing them and setting them on fire. His mannerisms also imply they were alive.

Granted, they could have been dead already, but the implication is that they were still alive.

[Seerow]

Torture is a crime of universal jurisdiction for a reason.

And as for slavery being intrinsically evil: the answer is yes.

From our point of view, sure. Evil is defined by your culture. Many cultures, especially those from fantasy settings, practice slavery, and many slave owners are of good alignment. In these cultures, slaves are simply a beast of burden that can be a bit more autonomous in their work. Killing a runaway slave is akin to killing a rabid animal. It can no longer work, and has potential to become dangerous, so you put it down.


So why did they have to be nailed? If they were dead the bodies could just have been laid down and burned, and from that distance you can't really tell the difference. You can't even tell what they are.

Nailing them to a post to change the shape of the flame perhaps? Each of those flames needs to go straight up. Burning a body laying down is going to create a longer flame, not the point of light we saw in the picture. If the whole point of the burning is for aesthetic effect, then you want it to look good.

[Turalisj]

Oh, poor Elan.
NIce comic, though! Is Tarquin a Nero?

No, Tarquin wouldn't be a Nero. There really wouldn't be any roman equivilent to Tarquin, except maybe a group of backstabbing senators that oversee the assassinations of major political leaders for the sake of 'stability'.

[Neopolis]

Man, I totally knew something evil was up when I saw the big letters. I just expected a last-panel cutaway to, like, puppies being burned and Elan remaining oblivious.

Daaamn. Eagerly awaiting next comic.

[Weimann]

Alignment arguments can often be solved by "Did my gutfeeling tell me this was evil?" If it did, it probably was.

[Estelindis]

In Goodkind universe Tarquin would have been LG :P
You shoot, you score! :smallbiggrin:


I wouldn't be surprised if Complete Monster, and a link to this strip, goes up on the TV Tropes OOTS Characters page, for Tarquin, after this.
Already done... :smallamused:

[tcrudisi]

My reading of it is that they were nailed to vertical boards. Pre-killed or not, gonna need to be nailed or hung to stay up.


Plus, I've read the strip again, and, is there a mention they were buried alive? 'Nailing' them in the right spot, could mean dead, or passed out from the pain.

It would be sooo much easier to just lie them on the ground and burn them that way, if they were already dead. You'd get the same effect from that distance, anyway, so the methodology only matters if they were dead or alive. Since they were nailed, they were almost assuredly alive.

[Seerow]

Well, let's ask you that question. Would you rather die by: 1) being beheaded or 2) being nailed into position and then being lit on fire? Given the option, I'm sure most of us would pick #1. It has a lot less suffering involved. Considering that Tarquin chose the method that involves the most suffering?

True, we don't know for sure that the slaves were alive when lit on fire, but since they were nailed to something and then lit on fire, it implies they were still alive. After all, why not just make a typical pyre if they were already dead? Furthermore, Tarquin did have a smug look to him and obviously got enjoyment from nailing them and setting them on fire. His mannerisms also imply they were alive.

Granted, they could have been dead already, but the implication is that they were still alive.

I'm sorry, I assume you've been both beheaded and burned alive to know exactly how much each hurts, and how much suffering is felt just before you die?

Get a hot enough fire going (and we can assume this fire is very hot to be seen from such a distance), and the death will be almost instantaneous anyway.

And the entire argument assumes they weren't killed in capture and not simply burned for the purposes of the show.

[Turalisj]

Tarquin: Magnificent Bastard, Man behind the man, Complete Monster... anything else?

[Irbis]

My reading of it is that they were nailed to vertical boards. Pre-killed or not, gonna need to be nailed or hung to stay up.

This was my though exactly :smallwink:


What? The fault on victims choice is 100% Tarquin's.

Nope, it lands squarely on the shoulders of guys who "freed" them with no thought whatsoever how the slaves can sustain their freedom. "They... will be fines, I guess, duh" is not a though, sadly. They basically forced them to commit a crime punishable by death, then left them next to police station in highly suspicious clothing.

Is the slavery evil? Yes. Is "freeing" them in such way at least non-good? Also yes. I suspect that even had T. been good, they would have been still executed as that was the fate of most captured slaves.


You don't know how much Haley and V did to help the slaves get away, the EoB soldiers could've just been really good/lucky.

Nothing. Literally. "Freeing" a naked man and waving him goodbye is about the biggest lack of care, ever. Haley plainly did only this. The fact that they were so quickly and easily captured by very low level mooks only confirms it.

[Locnil]

I'm sorry, I assume you've been both beheaded and burned alive to know exactly how much each hurts, and how much suffering is felt just before you die?

Get a hot enough fire going (and we can assume this fire is very hot to be seen from such a distance), and the death will be almost instantaneous anyway.

No, being, say, shot through the head is an instantaneous death. Being set on fire, is one of the most painful ways to go and drags on for a while, which is why Nero preferred it.

[tcrudisi]

I'm sorry, I assume you've been both beheaded and burned alive to know exactly how much each hurts, and how much suffering is felt just before you die?

Get a hot enough fire going (and we can assume this fire is very hot to be seen from such a distance), and the death will be almost instantaneous anyway.

And the entire argument assumes they weren't killed in capture and not simply burned for the purposes of the show.

So you have no preference between the two? If you were given the option, you would say, "It does not matter to me, since in the end, I'm dead either way"?

Yes, there are reports of mangled beheadings and people blinking for a few seconds after being beheaded. Even considering those, I would take the almost instantaneous death of being beheaded to the torture of being nailed to something (which won't kill you), then having to wait at least a few moments (perhaps much longer) for the synchronized message to begin the flame, then the act of burning itself. Yes, the flames can get so hot that you die instantly, but what's the chance a dictator uses them as a form of punishment? I imagine the flames those produce would not last long at all. No, that was a typical fire, I'm afraid.

Also, whether they are vertical or horizontal won't change the direction that the flames are going. In both instances the flames are going straight up. When you light a match the flame is vertical whether you hold the match horizontal or vertical.

[Mordokai]

Dead is dead. Why does the manner of death matter so much?

Human dignity means anything to you? Yeah, there's a load of difference in how you kill somebody. I really hope I don't need to provide examples.


Also, his comments don't explicitly state they were alive when nailed into position and burned. Had they been killed via arrows, or hung, before being burned as a pyre make the act seem less evil to you?

It is strongly implied and by everything we know of Tarquin by now, I don't think he'd have it any other way.


Either way, escaped slaves being put to death is nothing new, and hardly restricted to only evil people. In any culture practicing slavery, this is very much expected. If you want to denounce entire cultures as evil for practicing such, that's your own business.

Once again, if you see slavery anything other than evil, I have little else to say to you. If one culture practices slavery and it's common in their culture, that doesn't make it any less evil. Unless you want to proclaim ilithids anything else than evil?

[Reverent-One]

Nothing. Literally. "Freeing" a naked man and waving him goodbye is about the biggest lack of care, ever. Haley plainly did only this. The fact that they were so quickly and easily captured by very low level mooks only confirms it.

Read the first panel of this page (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0752.html). Haley and V obviously put thought into this, the soldiers (which we have way of telling whether they were "low-level mooks" or high level divination specialized spellcasters) were simply better than they expected.

[The Pilgrim]

Elan has woken up!!!

[ArlEammon]

Awwww how sweet!:smallbiggrin:

[Locnil]

Also, this would probably be the last time we see Tarquin doing something like this. Elan has finally gotten the message, which means there is now no reason for Tarquin to keep showing how evil he is. So, the quest should probably be moving on soon...

[Seerow]

So you have no preference between the two? If you were given the option, you would say, "It does not matter to me, since in the end, I'm dead either way"?

Pretty much. Like I said dead is dead.

And you're still making the assumption that they're all alive at the time of burning, to justify your moral argument, using just the fact that there were nails involved as proof of this.


Also, whether they are vertical or horizontal won't change the direction that the flames are going. In both instances the flames are going straight up. When you light a match the flame is vertical whether you hold the match horizontal or vertical.

Right the flame will go straight up, but the shape is different. If you have a wider base for your fire, the flame itself will be wider. Sure you could fix this by making sure each pyre has a base that is the same size regardless of the person sitting on it. But given the time constraints and logistics of it, it seems like the simpler option is to nail them standing straight up, where it is far easier to control the shape of the fire.

[Stmr5000]

I'll be square with you. I laughed my ass off. Mainly because this highlights how Haley doesn't think things through. "Oh, well me and my class levels and military followers survived in a fairly well provisioned city, cleary these slaves can survive in a desert." Yep. Logic.

[rewinn]

From our point of view, sure. Evil is defined by your culture. Many cultures, especially those from fantasy settings, practice slavery, and many slave owners are of good alignment. In these cultures, slaves are simply a beast of burden that can be a bit more autonomous in their work. Killing a runaway slave is akin to killing a rabid animal. It can no longer work, and has potential to become dangerous, so you put it down.

You are simply mistaken. Fantasy settings are called "fantasy settings" for a reason.

Real-world cultures generally contain a blend of good and evil features. That is called the human condition. My own nation (The United States) is no exception in that regard. To say that a thing is not evil because everybody's doing it is to render the concept of evil a nullity.

If you want to argue that D-and-D "good" is not congruent with real-world "good", sure, you have a point. In some campaigns, "Good" and "Evil" are just associations with teams, like Yankees and Red Sox. However (in real world) torture and slavery are universal crimes. That that are still done does not make them not evils, any more than the fact that people murder does not make murder still evil.

I appreciate that there are still those who argue there is no such thing as "universal human rights" but theirs is a view falling greatly out of favor, for good and sufficient reason.

[Damaris]

Awwww how sweet!:smallbiggrin:
IKR? He did it all for Elan! It's adorable! :smalleek:

I'm also wondering how he can *expect* Elan to react positively, because he honestly seems to.

Also, Tyrinar the Bloody could have been a good king!


Edit:

I'll be square with you. I laughed my ass off. Mainly because this highlights how Haley doesn't think things through. "Oh, well me and my class levels and military followers survived in a fairly well provisioned city, cleary these slaves can survive in a desert." Yep. Logic.
I'll admit, part of me felt the same, because I thought the whole "doing good by simply smuggling out slaves"-thing felt a bit too easy. That's what I get for doubting the author. O_o

[Grommen]

You magnificent Bastage! Tarquin might replace Vader as my favorite bad guy all time. I mean if he keeps this up. Next thing he has to do is threaten Haley in some way, and order the death of Belkar.

Now.... Lets us ponder

psychopath - — n
Also called: sociopath a person afflicted with a personality disorder characterized by a tendency to commit antisocial and sometimes violent acts and a failure to feel guilt for such acts.

I mean I don't know. The dude is stoked about lighting a bunch of people on fire to make a sign for his long lost son. And he actually thinks that his son will get all misty eyed over the display.

And yes I did find this funny. It's a stick figure cartoon. It is not real. I found it funny for the reason that this is how far you have to go to get Elan to see the light. It's funny only because it's so over the top.

If it were real, then it would not be funny. It would be horrific, beyond redemption. Anyone complicit in it's act would be among the most vial people ever to have walked the planet. But it is not real, so it's funny as hell.

I feel bad for Elan though, and his dad. They are trying very hard to impress each other. In the span of a few panels Elan has watched his father (someone he was idoliseing) go from super hero, to the very things Elan has spent his life fighting. I suspect that Tarquin is about to have a similar revelation about his son. Coarse that might come as one drives a sword through the ribs of the other.

Prolly not funny, but done with style!

[Juhn]

Poor Elan.
I do think it was a little excessive, though. Up until now, Tarquin has seemed more like the "Do whatever it takes to get what I want" kind of evil than the "Light people on fire to get a neat sign" kind.

Well, he had to make an example out of them anyway. It just so happened that he could do that and make a loving gesture toward his son at the same time. Two bird, one stone, etc.

[Fyrelord23]

Dead is dead. Why does the manner of death matter so much?

Also, his comments don't explicitly state they were alive when nailed into position and burned.
"My men had to get out to the mountains, recapture them, nail them into position, and then get the oil out there in time to light the rebellious little pricks on fire in unison." _ Tarquin

With that much detail he put into the statement, I do believe he would have mentioned it of they were dead first.


Either way, escaped slaves being put to death is nothing new, and hardly restricted to only evil people. In any culture practicing slavery, this is very much expected. If you want to denounce entire cultures as evil for practicing such, that's your own business.My uncle had a fishing boat. I'd go trolling for tuna with him. I've seen better bait.

[Seerow]

Once again, if you see slavery anything other than evil, I have little else to say to you. If one culture practices slavery and it's common in their culture, that doesn't make it any less evil. Unless you want to proclaim ilithids anything else than evil?


Then please feel free to stop posting. Slavery is a practice that has been common throughout human history for a much longer portion of it than it has not.

Do I personally practice slavery? No. Do I think slavery is a good thing? No. Do I respect human rights? Yes.

This doesn't mean I'm going to condemn a character in a culture that supports slavery for killing slaves that try to escape.


edit:


"My men had to get out to the mountains, recapture them, nail them into position, and then get the oil out there in time to light the rebellious little pricks on fire in unison." _ Tarquin

With that much detail he put into the statement, I do believe he would have mentioned it of they were dead first.


With as much detail he put into the statement, I do believe he would have mentioned if they were alive first.


See, I can do it too!

[tcrudisi]

And you're still making the assumption that they're all alive at the time of burning, to justify your moral argument, using just the fact that there were nails involved as proof of this.


True, we don't know for sure that the slaves were alive when lit on fire, but since they were nailed to something and then lit on fire, it implies they were still alive. After all, why not just make a typical pyre if they were already dead? Furthermore, Tarquin did have a smug look to him and obviously got enjoyment from nailing them and setting them on fire. His mannerisms also imply they were alive.

I also held up as evidence Tarquin and his personality and mannerisms. I don't believe the shape of the fire to be of the utmost importance. They (Elan and Tarquin) are looking straight (horizontal) at the mountain. If they were having to look up, I would agree with you that the fire should be vertical. Since they are looking straight at it, I do not think it makes a difference whether the fire is "wider or taller". Either way will be clearly visible from their angle.

That just leaves the reason. If you can get the same visibility by laying someone down instead of nailing them up, why would you nail them up? To keep them in place, of course. And since if they are standing the only reason to keep them in place is to prevent them from leaving the fire, I think they were still alive.

[Turalisj]

Is the slavery evil? Yes. Is "freeing" them in such way at least non-good? Also yes. I suspect that even had T. been good, they would have been still executed as that was the fate of most captured slaves.


Actually, it varies. Most slaves that were needed to manual labor would have merely been whipped and bruised up a little, nothing worse than a day on the 'job' would have brought.

Saying that an escaped slave would have been executed is like saying taking a sick day will get you fired, or staying home from school once is going to get you expelled....

[Scion_of_Darkness]

Awesome foreshadowing. :smallamused:

[phantomreader42]

Tarquin: Magnificent Bastard, Man behind the man, Complete Monster... anything else?

Affably Evil?

[Zexion]

This comic is SO made of win. :smallbiggrin:

[Antacid]

No rationalizing that one away. That should settle the "Dad's not evil" arguments"Not at all. Clearly, Elan's father was just trying to make sure the slaves kept warm, in the colder night time temperatures common at higher desert latitudes.

[Pronounceable]

Big Daddy is watching. Big Daddy also has STYLE.

Rebellious little pricks seems to sum up Big Daddy's opinion of his subjects pretty well.
...
And what's up with all the sudden Tarquin hate? Deaths and destruction from all those conquest and invasions and rebellions could mayhaps be defended with political stability angle, but he'd proven how horrible a character he is on a personal level before we even heard about all that. Soo... o_O

[Damaris]

Then please feel free to stop posting. Slavery is a practice that has been common throughout human history for a much longer portion of it than it has not.

Do I personally practice slavery? No. Do I think slavery is a good thing? No. Do I respect human rights? Yes.

This doesn't mean I'm going to condemn a character in a culture that supports slavery for killing slaves that try to escape.


edit:



With as much detail he put into the statement, I do believe he would have mentioned if they were alive first.


See, I can do it too!

So because it happened a lot it's okay? What? If a culture condones slavery (and killing escaped slaves. horribly), that means that an individuals within this culture hold less *responsibility* for doing so than someone who would do the same, say, today, but it's still completely wrong and yes, evil.

Also, if they were dead, he could have mentioned killing them; them still being alive requires no addiational action that would need mentioning

[tcrudisi]

Not at all. Clearly, Elan's father was just trying to make sure the slaves kept warm, in the colder night time temperatures common at higher desert latitudes.

Build a man a fire, he'll stay warm for the night. Set a man on fire and he'll stay warm for the rest of his life.

[Scutilla]

When I got to the second page and saw Elan and Tarquin hugging, I thought, "oh no, here we go again". Thank you flashback!Haley, for saying what all of us were thinking.

I may have to reconsider my opinion of Tarquin's genre-savvyness. I thought that Tarquin was deliberately turning Elan against him for some scheme or another, but now it looks like he genuinely thinks Elan will still love him and want to make the Empire his new home after his quest is over.

Of course, this makes more sense if Tarquin views himself as good and doesn't see the vast difference in beliefs between himself and his son, as others have speculated.


Either way, escaped slaves being put to death is nothing new, and hardly restricted to only evil people. In any culture practicing slavery, this is very much expected. If you want to denounce entire cultures as evil for practicing such, that's your own business.

Evil is defined by your culture. Many cultures, especially those from fantasy settings, practice slavery, and many slave owners are of good alignment.
Just because not everyone in the culture was "evil" (using the restrictive D&D definition of alignment where everyone is either good, neutral, or evil) doesn't mean it wasn't an evil act. Sometimes otherwise good people do bad things because they'd been taught all their lives it was okay.

That applies to both putting innocents to death AND slavery in general, by the way.

[Squark]

Wow. Tarquin really knows how to fly past the event horizon. This rivals parts of SoD in terms of depravity.


Anyone else want to see Tarquin get some karma right about now?

[Irbis]

It would be sooo much easier to just lie them on the ground and burn them that way, if they were already dead. You'd get the same effect from that distance, anyway, so the methodology only matters if they were dead or alive. Since they were nailed, they were almost assuredly alive.

Nope. The flame had to be big, which is much easier if the burning object is on a pole, than lying, regardless of being dead or not.


So you have no preference between the two? If you were given the option, you would say, "It does not matter to me, since in the end, I'm dead either way"?

Um... I can see how you can say "I'll die in a minute, the difference is minute". Sure, killing in a more crual way is bad... but now that I think about it, they were burned dead. Simply, crucifixion puts such strain on your chest that you cannot breathe and you die pretty painless way, unless supported in some way.


Read the first panel of this page (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0752.html). Haley and V obviously put thought into this, the soldiers (which we have way of telling whether they were "low-level mooks" or high level divination specialized spellcasters) were simply better than they expected.

Yeah, what though? "My resistance, made up from soldiers who leveled in the battle or were high level to begin with, was able to survive for months in a city they knew like their own pocket, with perfect hiding spots, with supplies readily available, and the enemy being inept - therefore these naked men, low-level, with no supplies at all, no hiding places, no experience with mountains, against a competent searcher who has experience with manhunts, will surely do even better"?

In latest comic, even Elan is better in predicting the consequences than this.

Oh, and these high-level, specialised spellcasters were somehow too easily killed when Elan & Haley tried to escape, or too easily affected with first level spells. Does that say 'high level' to you?

[JadeTarisu]

I feel really bad for Elan, and it's awesome that he gets a whole new expression for the ick on this. I think, were I Elan, I'd be sick when Tarquin revealed what the letters were. Eeeeww!!:smalleek:

[JoseB]

I'm sorry, I assume you've been both beheaded and burned alive to know exactly how much each hurts, and how much suffering is felt just before you die?

Get a hot enough fire going (and we can assume this fire is very hot to be seen from such a distance), and the death will be almost instantaneous anyway.

And the entire argument assumes they weren't killed in capture and not simply burned for the purposes of the show.

Well, in France, at the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th, there were some informal experiments performed with criminals who were guillotined. The results were inconclusive, but the consensus was that consciousness wasn't retained for more than 30 seconds or so after decapitation. Of course, there are historical accounts of botched decapitations by axe. However, if the executioner was skilled (and used a sword instead of an axe, which was the norm in the European Continent -- it was in England that axes were favoured) he could do his business quickly and cleanly. Not to mention that the guillotine has several medieval precursors (most famous of them all the Halifax maiden).

Burning is rather more protracted, and most of those who were sentenced to die in a pyre died of asphyxia due to the smoke; it definitely took longer than when you lose your head. If you are coated with flammable liquid and set on fire, it will be rather more unpleasant: One thing is for sure: you will not die instantly -- an oil fire is not hot enough for that (not even gasoline: cf. Thich Quan Duc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c), who set himself on fire in 1963 in Saigon to protest against the persecution of buddhists, and took a while to die). In the latter case, also, you would inevitably breath in very hot gases that would sear the inside of your lungs. The pain in that case is undescribable, according to people who were caught in fires and ended up inhaling searing gases (very few survive that, but the suffering is atrocious).

For a fire to be seen from a distance, how "hot" it is is not really relevant. Heck, in the proper circumstances, even a match or a lit cigarette can be seen from quite far away (and many soldiers were killed by snipers in the trenches of WWI because matches and lit cigarettes betrayed their position to the enemy).

I would say that, when it comes to levels of pain, a non-botched decapitation is definitely preferable to being doused in a flammable liquid and set on fire.

Not to mention that it is degrading for a human being to be used a simple prop to provide some kind of decoration against their will, which is what Tarquin has done with those recaptured slaves.

[Seerow]

Actually, it varies. Most slaves that were needed to manual labor would have merely been whipped and bruised up a little, nothing worse than a day on the 'job' would have brought.

Saying that an escaped slave would have been executed is like saying taking a sick day will get you fired, or staying home from school once is going to get you expelled....

Depending on the job taking a sick day can get you fired. I can tell you that from experience :p

But seriously, slavery is not work. A worker missing a day of work can usually be overlooked, especially if they have reason. But a slave trying to escape means if you put him back on the job, there's a strong chance he will not be working as hard as he can, and will be looking for another opportunity to escape as soon as possible. Which then means yet more effort put into pulling them back in again to get half assed work.

As more slaves see other slaves try to run away and get off easily, they might think it's worth it for them to try to escape. After all, if you get caught, no big deal, if you succeed, you're free! It's a win-win situation.

So the normal solution to this conundrum is to kill any slave that attempts to escape. Just having the threat of that there usually prevents most from even trying.

edit:

So because it happened a lot it's okay? What? If a culture condones slavery (and killing escaped slaves. horribly), that means that an individuals within this culture hold less *responsibility* for doing so than someone who would do the same, say, today, but it's still completely wrong and yes, evil.

Also, if they were dead, he could have mentioned killing them; them still being alive requires no addiational action that would need mentioning

1) Yes, the individuals are less responsible because they are acting within their cultural tenants. There are likely many things we do today that we consider good that a few hundred years from now will be looked upon as atrocities. That's the thing about moral values, they're constantly in a flux. The idea that there is some greater good is pretty dubious as far as I am concerned.

2) Given how horrible being burned alive is apparently considered by everyone, it seems as though them still being alive/concious would be something very much worth mentioning. He may have thought it obvious that capturing the prisoners involved their death, because taking a prisoner alive is much harder than putting an arrow through them. The statement really can go either way.

[Mr. Scaly]

Well then. That tears it. Xykon has been officially dethroned. Ladies and gentlemen, meet your new king of Complete Monster with Style!


P.S. I KNEW that Haley and V freeing slaves on a whim would blow up in their faces somehow.

[Somewhere]

I also held up as evidence Tarquin and his personality and mannerisms. I don't believe the shape of the fire to be of the utmost importance. They (Elan and Tarquin) are looking straight (horizontal) at the mountain. If they were having to look up, I would agree with you that the fire should be vertical. Since they are looking straight at it, I do not think it makes a difference whether the fire is "wider or taller". Either way will be clearly visible from their angle.


My first reading is that the pyres are on a flat surface at lower elevation than Elan & Tarquin. But looking at it again, the pyres being on the side of a mountain range makes more sense.
Assuming they're on the side of the mountain, the bodies would still have to be fastened in one way or another. Unless there are coincidentally enough ledges in the shape of Elan's name to just dump bodies on :smallconfused:

[tcrudisi]

"My men had to get out to the mountains, recapture them, nail them into position, and then get the oil out there in time to light the rebellious little pricks on fire in unison." _ Tarquin

With that much detail he put into the statement, I do believe he would have mentioned it of they were dead first.


With as much detail he put into the statement, I do believe he would have mentioned if they were alive first.

See, I can do it too!

Based on his statement, the only thing we know for sure is that they were alive at some point. "Recapturing them" means to capture them again. Capture means to take prisoner. You don't take prisoners of dead people.

Since they were not killed when they were found, it's unlikely they were killed before getting to their funeral pyres. The only real question is if they would be killed right before being nailed and lit on fire. I think I've made my stance fairly clear, so I won't bother repeating it.

[silvadel]

And that my friends is what happens when you roll a ONE on a diplomacy check.

From the Tyrinnar statement -- to the THIS is Tyinnar -- to the giant flaming letters of slave toast -- AND the genre savvy tie-in to Haleys statement -- completely misjudging Elans perfectly predictable reaction here. Tyr *KNOWS* Elan wears a white hat -- what does he THINK his reaction would be?

Either he rolled a 1 and then rolled a 1 for the second roll to see how bad the flub was -- *OR* this is a complete set-up and Tyr knows *EXACTLY* what he is doing.....

Actually now that I wrote out all of the above -- I am leaning towards evil mastermind and that he set all of this up for a purpose -- Maybe he *WANTS* Elan to attack him.

----

I also agree there are just so many forms of evil being shown in the comic -- From Tarq, to Nale, to Sabine, to Xykon, to wrong-eye, to 2 different colored eyes, to Belkar to the lizard in the arena. All VERY different.

[Stomp]

The font of the strip is really light. I mean - lighter than usual. It's a real pain on larger monitors. Wish there was some way to see the strip larger res.

[Reverent-One]

Yeah, what though? "My resistance, made up from soldiers who leveled in the battle or were high level to begin with, was able to survive for months in a city they knew like their own pocket, with perfect hiding spots, with supplies readily available, and the enemy being inept - therefore these naked men, low-level, with no supplies at all, no hiding places, no experience with mountains, against a competent searcher who has experience with manhunts, will surely do even better"?

A) The resistence was in caves, not the city, B) the combat effectiveness of the Azure City's resistence is beside the point since the slaves were to be evading capture, not fighting back, C) the goblins in Azure city seemed to be quite better than inept, given their rapid response teams. Haley is a high level rogue and has lead a resistence movement for months, she should be quite the capable judge of how to not get caught. Doubting that she knew what she was talking about is like doubting V's knowledge of the arcane, utterly rediculous.


Oh, and these high-level, specialised spellcasters were somehow too easily killed when Elan & Haley tried to escape, or too easily affected with first level spells. Does that say 'high level' to you?

Who says the people they send out after free slaves are the same ones that guard them all day long? One of those jobs actually requires skills, the other really doesn't (unless you happen to be attacked by high-level adventurers).

[tcrudisi]

And that my friends is what happens when you roll a ONE on a diplomacy check.
...
Either he rolled a 1 and then rolled a 1 for the second roll to see how bad the flub was -- *OR* this is a complete set-up and Tyr knows *EXACTLY* what he is doing.....

Since Rich is using 3.5 as his baseline, I'd like to point out that a 1 on a skill check is not an automatic failure. Nor is it a "reroll to see how bad the flub is." Skills in 3.5 (just like in 4e) are "roll and add your modifier, see if you passed." If your DC is 10 and you have 9 in modifiers you will automatically pass since you can't roll lower than a 1. You get 1+9=10 pass.

[Mecharious]

An epiphany has never been so painful.

[Burner28]

Woah! :eek:

That was just... I don't know what to say!:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

[Orzel]

Those lights are... burning people.

*reads rest of comic*

Yep. Burning people.

[hayabusa]

Oh my God... That is just evil...

[Welf]

This..is..so..wrong..yet..so..funny :smallbiggrin:

[Issabella]

This comic I feel was more aimed at the readers who keep trying to debate T's alignment :)

[Doug Lampert]

Well, let's ask you that question. Would you rather die by: 1) being beheaded or 2) being nailed into position and then being lit on fire? Given the option, I'm sure most of us would pick #1. It has a lot less suffering involved. Considering that Tarquin chose the method that involves the most suffering?

The most suffering? I assume you've heard of Crucifixion? It features rather prominently in a fairly prominent religion. It takes a lot longer than burning to death.

Or consider that we ALREADY knew Tarquin had intelligent creature's dismembered alive so he could eat their livers. In that case we don't even know that there was anything he was trying to deter, he just wanted a pate.

At least in a slaveholding society (and we knew this was a brutal slaveholding society, that's nothing new), the slaves are being executed for something the society considers a crime.

No one should be shocked that Tarquin did this. Nor do I see any reason to suppose that most of the slaves were already dead (some of the escapees may have fought to the death specifially to avoid this, but I seriously doubt that Tarquin objects to burning people alive).


No, being, say, shot through the head is an instantaneous death. Being set on fire, is one of the most painful ways to go and drags on for a while, which is why Nero preferred it.

Actually Nero choose burning to death for exactly the reason Tarquin used it, it makes a big spectacle. Crucifixion could last over a week but doesn't look nearly as spectacular in the short run.


If it were real, then it would not be funny. It would be horrific, beyond redemption. Anyone complicit in it's act would be among the most vial people ever to have walked the planet. But it is not real, so it's funny as hell.

Vlad Drakul and Marcus Licinius Crassus would like a word with you. They think Tarquin's a wuss. (So for that matter do thousands of witch burners.)

The Khemer Rouge thinks those people were all wusses and went too easy on people.

Plenty of people in Darfur TODAY aren't impressed, all those other people eventually lost a war and died, they're still at it in Darfur.

Temüjin (AKA Gengis Khan) thinks everyone I've mentioned is a small timer.

Hong Xiuquan isn't impressed with Gengis's trivial little death toll (and many of you have probably never heard of him, what's 20,000,000 or so dead civilians between friends).

Adolf Hittler wonders what all the fuss is about.

Mao and Stalin note that Hitler's small little death toll got him killed, they managed larger ones and died in bed.

DougL

[Somewhere]

So anyway, on the note of how evil can he get, would anybody be surprised if the oil used turned out to be the accumulated oil/fat from previously slain humans/sentient beings?

[FoE]

Ladies and gentlemen, THAT is what we call a mood whiplash (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoodWhiplash).

[the_tick_rules]

I get the feeling Haley's old man might not be ok.

[Porthos]

I wouldn't be surprised if Complete Monster, and a link to this strip, goes up on the TV Tropes OOTS Characters page, for Tarquin, after this.

According to the "rules" of TV Tropes, Complete Monsters can't be funny or chraming. They have to be utterrly revolting and have no "positive" qualities whatsoever.

They created another catagory for characters like The Joker (and Xykon and now Tarquin): Evilly Affable (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvillyAffable)

This is, Complete Monsters that can be Funny and Amusing.

Why the disticntion? I dunno. Must have been some sort of giant flamewar or sumthin' or the topic of Complete Monsters having even a single "positive" feature (like being funny). :smallamused:

====

Personally I like the term Complete Monster better. Mostly coz it has style. And it shows that even people who seem charming can be, well, a complete monster. But whatcha gonna do?

[talkamancer]

Penny dropping from such a great height causes such pain. Poor Elan.

[slayerx]

Wow... oh wow...
Now that's impressive. I mean that's just horrible and yet hilarious at the same time. Man talk about dark humor. Well played giant, well played

Now will Elan blow up, or will he be able to maintain himself for the sake of the quest... don't rock the boat? Elan may just sink the boat at this moment

[dragongirl13]

Elan's face... Elan's face...

Never mind what he just realized, that face is just priceless.


Huh, V was wrong about how many slaves they could free.

Count the points of light. V was out by 7.

Yay, I'm not the only one who noticed that!

[Thrawn4]

I can't find words for the recent series of awesome strips!

[Aimbot]

Well that wraps everything up in a nice neat bow.

[silvadel]

Tarquin: Magnificent Bastard, Man behind the man, Complete Monster... anything else?
Kick the dog, Moral Event Horizon.

I would say a good quarter of people now have him over the moral event horizon and are more repulsed by Tarquin than impressed his demeanor.

And leave the door open for a big Xanatos Gambit coming up.

[Sannom]

That is not the only way to deal with Tarquin that deserves his evil. I wonder about Malack now...

Please make Malack less evil, please make Malack less evil, please give him some sort of long term plan for a more stable continent :smalleek:


I wouldn't be surprised if Complete Monster, and a link to this strip, goes up on the TV Tropes OOTS Characters page, for Tarquin, after this.

He definitely deserves a mention in the Crossed the Line Twice category too. That was horrendous but also hilarious in a really sick way! Up there with Steven Heck popping three of your fingers for calling him "Steve" and then setting you on fire!



Oh, and that also settled the matter with V's and Haley's thoughtless, ill-conceived self-indulgence exercise. I don't say they haven't had good intentions, but really, trying to "free" slaves without any kind of plan or without supplying them with means of survival could have ended in this way, only. I mean, "freeing" them in this way was almost evil.

Evil? No. Terribly stupid and absolutely selfish? Oh yes!


Affably Evil?

More like Evilly Affable. And yes, there is a difference:smallbiggrin:



Vlad Drakul and Marcus Licinius Crassus would like a word with you. They think Tarquin's a wuss. (So for that matter do thousands of witch burners.)

Are we talking about Crassus the executioner or Crassus the execution-ee here? Being captured by the Parthian while having a reputation for pure greediness really wasn't pleasant :smalleek:

[Sylthia]

It seems the best laid plans of mice and man went for naught for Haley and V. Maybe the giant flaming letters was how Polozius found out about the slaves and was glaring at V.

[Draconi Redfir]

Things were looking up and up and uuppp!! and then it all came doowwn...

[Inst]

{{scrubbed}}
Too bad, I liked Tarquin and I'm not particularly fond of the moralists...

[Scutilla]

After spending a bit of time away from the keyboard, I'd like to revise my earlier opinion of Seerow's posts. I can sort of see where he's coming from.

All D&D morality is absolute. Definitions of what is good or evil is handed down from on high (or rather, from the core rulebooks), and even the weakest of divine casters can tell you with 100% accuracy if a given person is evil or not.

All real-world morality is relative. There's no one divine source outright stating what's good or what's not. (There's plenty of alleged divine sources that do so, but there's no absolute proof that any are true and many outright contradict each other). So, we have to view morality through the lens of our modern society.

The assumption that many people here are making is that morality is a constantly improving process- i.e. the society of today has a better definition of morality than people two hundred years ago. People used to believe slavery of okay, but now we believe it's bad, therefore it must be bad.

There are two problems with this.

First is that it's outright false. Many societies today (or in recent history) perform deeds that are as bad or worse than what came before them. The bottom of Doug's post above me conveniently gives plenty of examples.

Second, if you DO believe that morality is always improving, you have to accept that some things we do today are evil and will be labeled as such in the future, but we just haven't realized it yet. (The most likely example I can think of is the way we currently treat our environment.)

It's also worth noting that D&D morality does not follow the same standards of modern morality. People in D&D regularly kill other sentients for no other reason than because they're evil, or at least because the people they're killing have themselves killed others. By many modern countries' laws, going into the home of a mass murderer and shooting him would be in itself a crime.

[Mando Knight]

Huh. Didn't think Haley's drunken ramblings would be that literal a prophetic foreshadowing.

[Murdim]

Well then. That tears it. Xykon has been officially dethroned. Ladies and gentlemen, meet your new king of Complete Monster with Style!
Naaah. Tarquin's still a solid second place. He may be miles above the likes of Nale (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigBadWannabe), Belkar (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicSociopath) and Kubota (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmugSnake), but he still has many, many on-screen atrocities of this scale to go before he reaches Xykon's level of depravity.

[apenpaap]

Wow, that was easily the most evil act in the comic (though forcing Redcloak to kill and zombify his own brother comes close), and yet it had me laughing for minutes.

[pendell]

This doesn't mean I'm going to condemn a character in a culture that supports slavery for killing slaves that try to escape.



Man I hate skating on the edge of what's acceptable on this forum, but I believe this observation has to be made.

A certain Book which is considered classical in western civilization was originally written in a slave owning culture. It specifically commanded that people who encountered a runaway slave should shelter him, NOT hand him over to his or her master. It also commanded that slaves who were beaten to the point of, say, losing an eye or a tooth were to be immediately set free in compensation for that damage. Chapter and verse available in PM.

My point is that even in the slave owning cultures of our real world, what Tarquin did would be considered over the top and abhorrent. It would have been just as abhorrent to slave owner George Washington as it would have been to slave owner Marcus Aurelius as it is to us today.

I concur that Tarquin is not from modern society and cannot be judged by the standards of modern society. But such grotesque cruelty transcends the mores of modern society and would have been considered, if not outright evil, at the very least in Very Bad Taste, even in societies such as Ancient Rome where the masters had absolute authority over not only their slaves but even over their own family members.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[silvadel]

Looked at it again... That last panel is the look of a character in Call of Cthulu losing the full 10 SAN points for the situation.

They could put that panel right on the cover of a CoC rulebook.

[Terbovus]

Wooo!

Even better than the last one! Just when you think he's going to blurt it out, it clicks! :smallfrown:

[Terbovus]

Build a man a fire, he'll stay warm for the night. Set a man on fire and he'll stay warm for the rest of his life.

Very bad, but it did make me chuckle... :smallamused:

[Hawkeye]

:eek:

Is this a day for major epic nuclear web-comic bombshells? I haven't recovered from QC this morning...

:smallfrown:

[Turalisj]

:eek:

Is this a day for major epic nuclear web-comic bombshells? I haven't recovered from QC this morning...

:smallfrown:

Poor Marty.... But let's not derail this thread (I already did that with the Bleach thread :smalltongue: )

So you have to wonder.... What's going to happen next? Will Elan run to find Haley and V and attempt to topple the empire? Is Tarquin truly blind to his son's alignment, or is this playing into his hands as 'the next sucker patsy to take down the current ruler'?

[Arcane_Secrets]

Would it have been any less evil if he simply beheaded the re-captured slaves and hung their heads around town as warning?

Actually: yes. He went out of his way to have them suffer dramatically and prolonged for his personal amusement.

Personally, I hope he gets fed to the Snarl pit and the pendulum style.

[Elfich]

I'm not sure who is worse: Xykon or Tarquin.

Tarquin has a much more methodical/institutional approach to his evil. Get something done in the most expedient/institutional manner possible. The next three steps are planned for.

Xykon: Blast the impediment with fire and lightning until gone with no care in the world for the next step in the process. If all fails, use more fire and lightning. who cares about tomorrow?

[Turalisj]

Doubt it. I'm betting that if he does meet his end in this story arc (unlikely), it will be at either Elan's or Ian's hands. In the case of Elan, it will be an 'oh my god what have I done' sort of thing.

[Jesus DeSaad]

With this comic, Tarquin has topped Xykon in being evil.

Seriously.

It was funny until he said what the fires were fueled by.
Now I can't stop picturing little stick people screaming in pain to their burning death.

I'm not offended, I understand it's all fiction, and I wouldn't even hint suggesting to anyone removing or toning this comic down.

It's... just... I am awed at the magnitude of evil present in this comic...

There's a guy worse than Xykon, and it's Elan's father.

[Turalisj]

With this comic, Tarquin has topped Xykon in being evil.

Seriously.

It was funny until he said what the fires were fueled by.
Now I can't stop picturing little stick people screaming in pain to their burning death.

I'm not offended, I understand it's all fiction, and I wouldn't even hint suggesting to anyone removing or toning this comic down.

It's... just... I am awed at the magnitude of evil present in this comic...

There's a guy worse than Xykon, and it's Elan's father.

Tarquin has yet to force someone to kill their brother, have them ressurect them as a zombie, then order that zombie to it's doom.

[Shale]

And Xykon has killed people painfully for nothing but his personal amusement. So yeah, the lich still wins.

[RMS Oceanic]

I especially love Elan's looks of absolute horror when it hits home. Nice touch, Giant!

[Arcane_Secrets]

Tarquin has yet to force someone to kill their brother, have them ressurect them as a zombie, then order that zombie to it's doom.

If he felt like it, or he thought it was necessary, do you think he'd actually hesitate to do that?

[Elfich]

Don't forget Xykon's method of anything (clearing dungeons, defeating enemy cities): Keep throwing goblins at the problem until the problem is dealt with. Goblins are disposable and replaceable, just get more.

[Antacid]

I would say a good quarter of people now have him over the moral event horizon and are more repulsed by Tarquin than impressed his demeanor.Don't forget the subset of people who remember that this is only a story, and as such have no problem finding evil characters awesome because they're evil in a cool way, without approving of the real-life equivalent of their actions in any way.

Tarquin's still a solid second place. He may be miles above the likes of Nale (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigBadWannabe), Belkar (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicSociopath) and Kubota (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmugSnake), but he still has many, many on-screen atrocities of this scale to go before he reaches Xykon's level of depravity.Most importantly, to paraphrase the Giant, to compete with Xykon, Tarquin would have to start being kind of a **** about it.

[Elfich]

If he felt like it, or he thought it was necessary, do you think he'd actually hesitate to do that?

Xykon still has one on Tarquin: Literally ripping off his own skin rather than admit weakness. I think Tarquin is going to have to work at that.

[Porthos]

As for my reaction to today's comic I think this sums it up nicely:

Well Played, Mauer Giant. :smallamused:

*watches reference woosh over the head of the majority of the Playground*

[Geno9999]

Okay, I want that look on the last panel as an avatar. And a emoticon. Because not even this :eek: can cover quite the huge "Oh Crap (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OhCrap)" expression on Elan's face.

[Turalisj]

Xykon still has one on Tarquin: Literally ripping off his own skin rather than admit weakness. I think Tarquin is going to have to work at that.

And since Tarquin, as far as we know, isn't a caster, he'll have to work extra hard.

[Arakune]

So, how many discovered Haley's father is the white haired man in the previous strip before today strip?,

Forgot the tags. :smallredface:

[FoE]

I wonder what Elan's next action will be: to simply attack his father or to run back to Haley in tears.

What's interesting about his comments in this strip is that Elan was willing to handwave some of the morally questionable activities he was seeing as moral "slips" on Tarquin's part.

[Marnath]

Well, Elan, do you get it NOW? He looks like that revelation might as well have been a blade in his gut. I wonder if he will handle this well, it could very well change who he is, destroy that innocence he's had up to this point.

[Elfich]

And since Tarquin, as far as we know, isn't a caster, he'll have to work extra hard.

Tarquin scores extra in the "Manipulative Bastard" category.

Xykon scores in the "obey or die" category. Boredom/whim/Tuesday/ scores here as well

I think it is an interesting contrast in how Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil operate.

[Shale]

So, how many discovered Haley's father is the white haired man in the previous strip before today strip?

Pretty close to everybody.

[Hawk7915]

Excellent strip, and I'm loving the rapid-fire updates :smallbiggrin:. Sad, but excellent

To those arguing that this isn't necessarily evil because killing rebellious slaves is part of a slave-owning society...

1) D&D Morality is absolute on the subject of respecting human decency and free will. What Tarquin did is, by D&D Morality, supremely evil. It is also supremely lawful according to both his personal code of punishment for transgression and the laws of his kingdom; it is exactly within his alignment. But it is not even a little good. Just because an act is lawful doesn't make it good. If Drow Society was based on the law of eating every first-born baby, would you say that "it's not worthy of condemnation that they eat babies; that's just, like, the law man"?

2) Even accepting that, because it was the rules, it's not evil, Tarquin didn't just kill them. He tortured them alive for his own gratification and the (supposed) enjoyment of his son. In Rich Burlew's D&D, it seems like intention is at least half of everything in terms of morality (why Roy gets credit for "trying", even though he is frequently quite chaotic in his methods; why Miko didn't regain her paladinhood even though she did her duty and prevented evil). Tarquin's intentions here were needlessly cruel and had 0 "respect for the dignity of life", even if it was also what his code told him he had too do.

3) This can't really be viewed as a "way of quelling future rebellion", because no one except the soldiers and Tarquin (and now Elan) even know that the light show is from the burning corpses of tortured slaves. All other slaves will have is word of mouth, as the distance is too great. The former "cutting their heads off and displaying them in town as a warning" would have actually given the argument that this is a necessary part of the law of the land more weight, because it would have been an actual deterrent to maintain order. This? This is needless evil for evil's sake.

[correnos]

It seems like in the case of Tarquin, there are two main motivations: what is necessary for his end goal (which can contain evil actions), and evil self-indulgence (what we're seeing now). With Xykon, however, his main plans are formulated around doing evil, and in addition the evil self-indulgence is there to an even greater extent. I think that Tarquin still has a long way to go before he matches the capacity of evil that Xykon has. Though, to be fair, we haven't seen Xykon at the top of his evil game recently, so it's understandable people would focus more on Tarquin.

[Porthos]

Tarquin didn't just kill them. He tortured them alive for his own gratification and the (supposed) enjoyment of his son.

This.

I should be shocked that there is even a debate about this. But then I remember the dreaded "Morally Justified" threads. :smallamused:

[Kato]

Wow, if this wasn't OOTS I'd b really shocked... Tarquin seemed like a nice enough (on a lawful evil scale) but that's just over the top o.o

Also, yay for oracle Haley!

[silvadel]

Xykon is still local evil. If you are 10 feet from Xykon you are in real trouble. If you are 10 miles from Xykon you are generally fine. The sole exception being Azure City -- but it was Redcloak that wanted Gobbotopia. Xykon would have been happier just to move on.

Now Tarq? There really is no distance you can be. If anything you are SAFER at 10 feet away from him than you are at 10 or even 500 miles. Tarq's reach spans a whole continent and wherever you are in it you can run afoul of it.

----

Will put it to you this way -- Which character would you prefer ruling the world?

Say Xykon (not redcloak) wins. How much of a difference in the life of joe commoner in cliffport would occur?

Now say Tarq were to take over the world. There would certainly be a difference in the life of joe commoner.

[zimmerwald1915]

Jesus tapping dancing Christ.
Nice, I thought I was the only one who said that. :smallsmile: [/irrelevant]

[TheDarkblade]

Interesting. I can say I did not see that coming. To be quite honest that was horrible in many ways compared to what I was taught is right or wrong. Yet so-called Witches were burned at the stake. Yet the ancient Egyptians didn't treat slaves nicely either. Yet Hitler caused the deaths of 6 millions Jews and more. Yet Stalin got away with his heinous crimes. Yet, well I could be here all day comparing other evil acts.

The worse thing about all of that is, they thought what they were doing was right. I have no doubt that Tarquin felt totally, completely justified in what he did. After all he can't have slaves running away on him and do nothing about it. If they were just killed for the attempt other slaves would try to if they feel like life isn't worth living: Live this terrible life or attempt escape and die if it fails. Without something very strong convincing them not to do so they would inevitably try to escape at one point in their life or another. He could have done it in more prolonged and torturous methods, but he didn't therefore he justifies what he does as being good. (If you haven't noticed that is rationalization not my personal opinion on the matter)

All of this can make sense depending on how you were raised. Yet, does that make it any less evil and is evil based solely on society?

I hope that it is a no based on both accounts. However, any evil can and has been justified to certain people, even if not everyone has been convinced. Also many proclaim a path of relativism where good and bad are just that, relative. When you get to that stage nothing can be seen as good or bad. You will see someone get killed you no longer can say that "That is evil" because evil is no longer definite. What is the point of following certain rules if it doesn't benefit themselves, is a short step to take, after all what you do can't be evil. Anything, and everything will be done and humanity will lose the ability to fight against it as it can't be evil, it is just an act.

Maybe I am an idealist but I think that there is a definite good and definite evil in the world but humans have not discovered it and possibly will not discover it.

Am I saying that I am right? No.
Do I know if there is a definite when it comes to good and evil? No.
Do I know if good and evil are solely human constructions or if there is something higher who has made it? No. I do not.
Am I putting myself on a moral high ground? I hope not, and if I am I ask for forgiveness.

Yet I will stick by my beliefs that what Tarquin did was egregiously wrong.

Yes that was probably a little out of tune even for this thread but I am not in a good mood.

With all that said, as a person who wises to someday be an author I find that I admire the way Rich set up Tarquin. It is a masterfully done villain, even compared to the others in the comic.

My reaction to this stip was:the beginning I was somewhat amused at how Tarquin brushed off what Elan was trying to say without fully meaning to. When the lights came on I thought that it was nice of Tarquin showing that he does care about his son and had a Hollywood feel to it. The last part when Elan found out it was burning slaves was somewhat perdictible. From previous examples of Tarquin's evilness, such as the "cold feet" and eating sapient creatures, and when compared to the parade scene, I didn't find that it was burning slaves the letters were made from was surprising at all. Also Elan's reaction wasn't surprising nor did I find it as amusing as people apparently saw it. If Elan did anything different there and if the lights weren't made from some horrible act I would have found it very out of character. The mood didn't call for laughing which is good as I feel that sometimes humor is forced in this comic and that the serious sections were the ones I appreciated the best.

[Zigg'rrauglurr]

Ok. I'm Evil, I have known that for some time now, not Belkar evil. More along the lines Lawful Evil with leanings to LN. My and my fiancee are D&D Gamers so the topic appeared several times, and the nice thing is that she being basically CG with some neutral tendencies; She has explicitily said she loves me even though I'm evil.

But nothing else has made me realize how truly evil I am, than reading this comic, half expecting the outcome, and realizing that:


1st. I completely understand T's point of view, and how he wants to give his son a warm welcoming (pun not intended, really)


2nd. He is not unaware of E alignment, but he sees beyond that and thinks/hopes they might still be close even with their differing alignments.


3rd. And most importantly, I had 0 pity for the slaves killed there and in such an horrific way. Mainly is the fact that they are fiction, but even if not, unless they were closely related to me; I would be hard pressed to feel anything for them. The Giant's depiction of the Red Wizard (The HalfElf/HalfDemon) BBG seems like the way I fell in general


4th. T's sense of the dramatic tells him that, either he gets to be the villain, and fought (probably killed) by his son in a grand espectacular epic way. Or he gets his wish and there is a true family reunion with his long lost son. "If it's the first, then I'll do it with style"

Also. Silvadel

Looked at it again... That last panel is the look of a character in Call of Cthulu losing the full 10 SAN points for the situation.

They could put that panel right on the cover of a CoC rulebook.

I couldn't agree with you more.

Just my thoughts...

[Gift Jeraff]

Yep. Tarquin is just as Evil as Xykon and Nale, if not worse.

Also, good call on Miron being a member of Tarquin's party in another thread.

[Andorax]

As an aside...only 3 more strips until Durkon's visa expires.

[Silverraptor]

I laughed at this for awhile.:smallbiggrin: Awesome job.

[Inst]

Well, it should have been a tip-off, right? Nale was evil, where do you think he got his evilness from?

Regarding burning at stake, you typically don't burn to death, instead, the conflagration consumes local free oxygen and you suffocate to death.

[TheBlackShadow]

That... That was Epic...

:smalleek:

Unfortunately, I'm a person who doesn't laugh too easily (I often find things very amusing but don't express it externally beyond a smile or a raised eyebrow), but I will admit that I did indeed Laugh Out Loud at that little moment of anagnorisis at the end there. The precise moment where Elan finally twigs it, his facial expression, the pose, the timing, the delivery, everything. Everything was perfect. Absolutely brilliant.


A lot of people have complained about Elan's characterisation in this story arc, saying that they were annoyed at his stupidity, stubborness, and complete refusal to see the truth, saying that it was out of character for him, but I can't really say that I agree with them.

Sure, Elan has matured over the course of the story, and I think he acquired some Bonus Points and chucked them into Wisdom at one point or another, but at the same time, he's still very much a bit of a silly, ditzy cloud-cuckoo-lander with an INT score too terrible for me (with a score of 18, according to easyDamus, thankyouverymuch) to contemplate. Let us also remember that Elan his very much one of The Good Guys. His mother raised him to, essentially, trust everyone and see the good in them. Combining this with the previously established fact that, for all his character growth, he's still not particularly intelligent, and also the nature of his upbringing and its impact on his character - growing up without a father or siblings, what he learned from his mother, apparently being teased and abondoned by others for his lack of intelligence and later his naivete, and, after finally meeting his brother, getting stabbed in the back by him, and thus developing a relatively childish persona (albeit with some degree of hidden maturity) as he grew up, with a sense of loneliness and a desire for companionship, familial or otherwise :smallwink: - I find his actions upon meeting his long-lost father completely in character. Indeed, far from finding him annoying, I for one found it quite touching. Either way, I think it was worth it just for the payoff we had in this strip today.

Wow, that turned out somewhat longer than intended.


At the same time as I write this, it strikes me that I probably shouldn't find this strip as funny as I do, as it involves the complete stripping away of Elan's happy illusions and peace of mind and replaces them with what must be a complete sense of shock, horror and disbelief, not to mention the extremely painful deaths of about thirty relatively innocent people. :smallfrown:

Similarly, for all my sympathy for Elan, he strikes as someone I would grow tired of VERY quickly in real life, while Tarquin I don't particularly mind - the Lawful Evil inside me finds it easy to ignore the mass murder and slavery simply because I like his character and find him interesting and amusing (although, somehow, the forcing of unwilling young women to marry him sours me to him far more than the brutal deaths of countless innocents). Somehow I can ignore the knowledge that, in real life, I would consider his running of the Empire completely reprehensible, because, in the world of the Order of the Stick, he just... fits somehow. Affable LE dictators with iron fists, Machiavellian plots and flairs for the dramatic belong there just like arrogant elven wizards, greedy paranoid rogues, stereotyped dwarves, and all the others. That and I think his long-term plan for the desert nations of the Western Continent is absolute genius and, probably, ultimately beneficial. Maybe thats why easyDamus says I'm True Neutral. :smallsigh:

Again, that turned out longer than it should have.



All in all, however, I would like to take my hat off to Mr. Burlew for this strip, which I think was a Crowning Moment of Awesome for him, for Elan, for the plot arc, and for the entire comic. If there were some smilie that did a clapping animation or something, I'd use it now.

Although in retrospect I probably should have left the massive essay for the actual end of the story arc, but still.

[grimbold]

this is becoming very... ominous

[Sengoku]

Tarquin scores extra in the "Manipulative Bastard" category.

Xykon scores in the "obey or die" category. Boredom/whim/Tuesday/ scores here as well

I think it is an interesting contrast in how Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil operate.

My thoughts, exactly.

I'm eager to see how this will turn out, and what's the connection between Tarquin and Girard (he could just have read about him, now that I think about it, given the knowledge he might have collected...)

[Alagaesian]

Oh wow. Oh wow. Whatever I thought the surprise was going to be, I never thought it would make me say "Aww!" and then, within ten seconds, also make me feel completely horrified. Mood Whiplash, ladies and gentlemen.

[Julian84]

This is the moral event horizon.

Tarquin? He took an F-22 and went Mach 5 straight through it. Then turned around just to blow it up for kicks and giggles.

I eagerly await his comeuppance .

[CoffeeIncluded]

Oh GOD.

And I think he broke Elan...:smallfrown:

[Dr Bwaa]

Huh, V was wrong about how many slaves they could free.

Count the points of light. V was out by 7.

Maybe some actually did escape?

[Porthos]

Maybe some actually did escape?

Seven in the other direction. :smallsmile:

V speculated that they could free 23 slaves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0749.html). But there are 30 points of "light" in the word Elan. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html)

[Marnath]

Seven in the other direction. :smallsmile:

V speculated that they could free 23 slaves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0749.html). But there are 30 points of "light" in the word Elan. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html)

Perhaps the extra 7 are the guards who failed to stop the escape?

[Porthos]

Perhaps the extra 7 are the guards who failed to stop the escape?

Or whoever the escaped slaves were meeting up with....

[Lateral]

Elan's face in the last panel is HILARIOUS.

[Quorothorn]

And **** just got unbelievably real. :eek:

[kamikazetoast]

Seven in the other direction. :smallsmile:

V speculated that they could free 23 slaves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0749.html). But there are 30 points of "light" in the word Elan. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html)

Perhaps Tarquin's people grabbed a few extra non-escaped slaves for good measure. :smallbiggrin:

[Boogastreehouse]

Ouch, that pretty undeniable.
Whats the next trope called where the good character does an out of character evil act to rid the world of a greater evil?


I concur on this one. My reaction was, "Well, now we know where Elan gets his tenuous grasp of reality from."

Actually, I think his dad is trying to provoke Elan. Tarquin knows his son is good, and is trying to get Elan to turn against him.

He's going to need a new patsy, soon, after all.

[UserShadow7989]

He ... burned the escaped slaves alive a la Nero?

That ... that's horrible. Moral Event Horizon is crossed. So Elan finally clued in , did he?

I hope we get through this quickly. I'm enjoying the strip for it's drama, but please, PLEASE cut it out with the so-called humor.

Rape and torture are not funny.

Burning people alive is not funny.

Trying to make it funny is a jarring note. But thank God even Elan has a limit to what denial can achieve.

On the plus side, thanks for the update!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

He's not making a joke. It's not supposed to be funny. This was intended to be completely horrifying. There is nothing to it that implies it was supposed to be even remotely amusing. There is no joke, no set up, no pun, no punchline. The intended reaction is Elan's in the last panel. Seriously, how is this not clear?

[Boogastreehouse]

That said, I don't necessarily classify this as an evil act. In most cultures that practice slavery, a slave trying to escape spells death. Sure, it might be more traditional for it to take place at the end of a rope, but burning isn't completely unheard of. And if the guy wants to do it with style? Well more power to him, I'm more impressed that he even though to try it.

If you're gonna kill someone regardless, may as well make their death mean something.


"In most evil cultures that practice the evil tradition of slavery, a slave trying to escape spells death."

Fixed that for ya...

[Coidzor]

...Wow. :smallbiggrin:

I mean, his dad basically confirms that he's going to let Elan go on with his quest and that he's actually happy to see him and Elan finally gets it through his head that his dad is EVUL.

Now to see how this plays out.

[factotum]

You know, I was confident that nobody could possibly still think Tarquin isn't evil after this. I see someone managed to prove me wrong less than an hour after the strip went up. I am seriously beginning to wonder what it *takes* for someone to be acknowledged evil round these parts! :smallmad:

[Thorcrest]

Ok. I'm Evil, I have known that for some time now, not Belkar evil. More along the lines Lawful Evil with leanings to LN. My and my fiancee are D&D Gamers so the topic appeared several times, and the nice thing is that she being basically CG with some neutral tendencies; She has explicitily said she loves me even though I'm evil.

But nothing else has made me realize how truly evil I am, than reading this comic, half expecting the outcome, and realizing that:


1st. I completely understand T's point of view, and how he wants to give his son a warm welcoming (pun not intended, really)


2nd. He is not unaware of E alignment, but he sees beyond that and thinks/hopes they might still be close even with their differing alignments.


3rd. And most importantly, I had 0 pity for the slaves killed there and in such an horrific way. Mainly is the fact that they are fiction, but even if not, unless they were closely related to me; I would be hard pressed to feel anything for them. The Giant's depiction of the Red Wizard (The HalfElf/HalfDemon) BBG seems like the way I fell in general


4th. T's sense of the dramatic tells him that, either he gets to be the villain, and fought (probably killed) by his son in a grand espectacular epic way. Or he gets his wish and there is a true family reunion with his long lost son. "If it's the first, then I'll do it with style"


Oddly I find myself incapable of agreeing with you more... though I am usually on the more Lawful Neutral side of the equation...

Anyways, well done Giant, an excellent comic once again!

And to all the morality debaters, if it is the law that run away slaves get executed, then that is the law, and they will be killed regardles. Like this, they just daw with fiery style! :smallcool:



In most evil cultures that practice the evil tradition of slavery, a slave trying to escape spells death

I'd argue against you there, but that strays far too much into real world politics and possibly even religion if enough morality gets dragged into it.

[Coidzor]

You know, I was confident that nobody could possibly still think Tarquin isn't evil after this. I see someone managed to prove me wrong less than an hour after the strip went up. I am seriously beginning to wonder what it *takes* for someone to be acknowledged evil round these parts! :smallmad:

I think it's just become a fun activity for some people.

[Marnath]

Legal is NOT equal to not-evil, people! :smallmad:

[TheBST]

Oh god, am I a terrible person for finding those last three panels hilarious?

[DougTheHead]

He's not making a joke. It's not supposed to be funny. This was intended to be completely horrifying. There is nothing to it that implies it was supposed to be even remotely amusing. There is no joke, no set up, no pun, no punchline. The intended reaction is Elan's in the last panel. Seriously, how is this not clear?

Speak for yourself. I was laughing my ass off. Burning people alive can be funny, it's all about the context.

[MythicFox]

Huh. Didn't think Haley's drunken ramblings would be that literal a prophetic foreshadowing.

Perhaps a blessing from Thor for his newest convert?

(But unfortunately, the way Thor's followers work, nobody catches the prophecies at the time because they're just too wasted.)

[TheBlackShadow]

"In most evil cultures that practice the evil tradition of slavery, a slave trying to escape spells death."

Fixed that for ya...

Well, yes, in modern Western civilisation yes, this is generally considered to be completely reprehensible, and I for one agree with that position (I think it is probably also reprehensible in most other modern cultures too for that matter, but not having empirical data immediately to hand I can't vouch for all of them). The problem is that the EoB is neither modern nor Western, and thus probably have their own standards. Depends on what most EoB-ers think of it, if they generally agree that it was an evil act, then yes, Tarquin, in the eyes of his society, is evil, if not, well...

[apenpaap]

Speak for yourself. I was laughing my ass off. Burning people alive can be funny, it's all about the context.

I agree. I especially loved the irony of Tarquin making such a sweet gesture in such a horrifying way.

[Porthos]

Well, yes, in modern Western civilisation yes, this is generally considered to be completely reprehensible, and I for one agree with that position (I think it is probably also reprehensible in most other modern cultures too for that matter, but not having empirical data immediately to hand I can't vouch for all of them). The problem is that the EoB is neither modern nor Western, and thus probably have their own standards. Depends on what most EoB-ers think of it, if they generally agree that it was an evil act, then yes, Tarquin, in the eyes of his society, is evil, if not, well...

In DnD, slavery is defined as evil. Too many sourcebooks say otherwise.

Likewise, for some strange reason, Rich is on record as saying selling people into slavery (and therefore by extentsion, the practice of slavery) is evil in OotSland.

As Rich is more or less the DM of his world, I'll take his ruling in the matter as the final say (at least when it comes to the comic). :smallamused:

[Kaytara]

Poor Elan. :smallfrown:

Well now, THIS should be interesting. Tarquin DOES seem to genuinely love his son. How's this going to be?

[Turalisj]

Will put it to you this way -- Which character would you prefer ruling the world?

Say Xykon (not redcloak) wins. How much of a difference in the life of joe commoner in cliffport would occur?

Now say Tarq were to take over the world. There would certainly be a difference in the life of joe commoner.

Xykon would just burn everything to the ground for his own enjoyment.

Tarquin wouldn't exactly be ruling in large crowds, but behind closed doors. That being said, I think for the most part people would have a, if not good, but tolerable conditions with him behind the scenes. It just depends on how fortunate or unfortunate you are in being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Xykon is an homicidal undead maniac, where as Tarquin wants an empire to rule.

[TheBlackShadow]

In DnD, slavery is defined as evil. Too many sourcebooks say otherwise.

Likewise, for some strange reason, Rich is on record as saying selling people into slavery (and therefore by extentsion, the practice of slavery) is evil in OotSland.

As Rich is more or less the DM of his world, I'll take his ruling in the matter as the final say (at least when it comes to the comic). :smallamused:

Fair enough then, I'll take your word for it. It seems strange to me that the same values would be accepted universally (from a cultural viewpoint rather than a personal one, obviously) in OotSland, but what Rich says goes, its his playground, after all.

[silas the monk]

If I have the Giant's style right, the next strip will be a context switch. I don't think we will see the next few steps that Elan takes, nor how he tells what he has learnt to the rest of the party. I suspect that the next piece of action will take place outside the Empire of Blood

So I wonder what will we see next?
1.) Team Evil
2.) Gobbotopia
3.) Azurites
4.) Inkyrius
5.) Linear Guild
6.) One of the neighbouring states: Reptilia, "Free" City of Doom, Empire of Tears, Empire of Sweat.

[Porthos]

Fair enough then, I'll take your word for it. It seems strange to me that the same values would be accepted universally (from a cultural viewpoint rather than a personal one, obviously) in OotSland, but what Rich says goes, its his playground, after all.

Oh, someone may think that slavery is a perfectly fine and wonderful (and needed) institution. They'll just be a tad surprised when they die and end up in a place they weren't expecting. :smalltongue:

As for Rich, no need to take my word for it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=559967&postcount=4). :smallsmile:

[Durgok]

I'm not sure, but I don't think quite that expression of open-mouthed horror, has ever appeared in the comic before.

The statue of Tarquin in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html) strip.

[Shale]

Remember, D&D evil is objective, not subjective. It's not a matter of "is this action frowned upon by general society?", but "is this action frowned upon by the gods who run the universe?"

[TheBlackShadow]

If I have the Giant's style right, the next strip will be a context switch. I don't think we will see the next few steps that Elan takes, nor how he tells what he has learnt to the rest of the party. I suspect that the next piece of action will take place outside the Empire of Blood

So I wonder what will we see next?
1.) Team Evil
2.) Gobbotopia
3.) Azurites
4.) Inkyrius
5.) Linear Guild
6.) One of the neighbouring states: Reptilia, "Free" City of Doom, Empire of Tears, Empire of Sweat.

I don't think it'll be the Linear Guild. I can see the Guild appearing in this particular story arc to upset the balance. Can you think of a more poetic time for Nale to turn up than this? Personally, I think we're maybe too close to the end of this particular arc to go haring off somewhere else, but your guess is as good as mine.

[Thorcrest]

Remember, D&D evil is objective, not subjective. It's not a matter of "is this action frowned upon by general society?", but "is this action frowned upon by the gods who run the universe?"

To point out the obvious problem here... what about any Evil Gods? They don't necessarily call themselves Evil, but are labelled as such, as such the gods have multiple viewpoints on what makes one Good and Evil.

[Marnath]

Remember, D&D evil is objective, not subjective. It's not a matter of "is this action frowned upon by general society?", but "is this action frowned upon by the gods who run the universe?"

Thank you! I predict a 1% decrease in people who ignore that fact for the duration of this thread. :smalltongue:

[Porthos]

To point out the obvious problem here... what about any Evil Gods? They don't necessarily call themselves Evil, but are labelled as such, as such the gods have multiple viewpoints on what makes one Good and Evil.

That's where "overgods" and the like come in.

But to really look at this question is to just invite a 20 page flamefest. :smalltongue:

Save it to say that if one looks at Evil Gods and compares them to other Evil Gods, there are usually commonalities. And I am hard pressed to think of a single DnD god, in any licensed campaign, that is described as "good" that looks upon "traditional" slavery with favor.

[Slayn82]

I find it funny how people are discussing how horrible burning the slaves is, when the characthers live in a world where daily someone can kill people and other things with fireballs. And sometimes proceeding to eat them...

You know, a lot of people in that world probably just are jaded, and consider killing slaves an neutral thing at best...Cruel and Evil, yes... but it was against a proper target. "They saw it coming" and all that kind of reasoning.

Aand, turns out that, unsurprisingly, the same aplies to our world too. No matter how strange, horrible or weird something is, someone, somewhere, will acept it. The internet just took care of easing the "somewhere" part.

Now, what will Elan do? Flip out the handle and make an pirouette?

[Turalisj]

I don't think it'll be the Linear Guild. I can see the Guild appearing in this particular story arc to upset the balance. Can you think of a more poetic time for Nale to turn up than this? Personally, I think we're maybe too close to the end of this particular arc to go haring off somewhere else, but your guess is as good as mine.

Nale: Hi dad, just wanted to stop by and say....*see's Elan* What
Elan: The
Tarquin: Well now, this seems like it'll be a fun time, doesn't it? :smallamused:

[Anterean]

He is right though, it is pretty impressive logistic wise

[MythicFox]

The statue of Tarquin in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html) strip.

Maybe he's got the ability to inflict that as a feat or perhaps a class feature from a prestige class. :smallbiggrin:

[TheBST]

Remember, D&D evil is objective, not subjective. It's not a matter of "is this action frowned upon by general society?", but "is this action frowned upon by the gods who run the universe?"

If a group of beings- who aren't omnicogniscient- decide what makes things good or evil, that sounds subjective to me.

[tcrudisi]

"In most evil cultures that practice the evil tradition of slavery, a slave trying to escape spells death."

Fixed that for ya...

That is a very ethnocentric attitude to take. Just because the culture you are from defines object X (slavery in this case) as evil does not mean that object X is evil to other cultures. What is evil in one culture may not be evil in another. Having said all that, I understand that OotS and D&D are far different than the real world and in those worlds object X can be evil.


Actually, I think his dad is trying to provoke Elan. Tarquin knows his son is good, and is trying to get Elan to turn against him.

He's going to need a new patsy, soon, after all.

I disagree. How does getting his son to attack him cause the red dragon to be replaced? No, either Tarquin is oblivious to Elan being good or he has other motives (like trying to convert Elan to his views), but getting Elan to attack him would not work to usurp control of the empire.

Unless someone can come up with a convincing way where Elan attacks Tarquin and manages to usurp control of the empire. And remember: Elan is aware of how his father works and now knows that Tarquin is evil, so he would not allow Tarquin et. al. to manipulate him.

If Tarquin wants Elan to dispose of the red dragon he's going about it all wrong. Considering Tarquin's style and intelligence, I seriously doubt that.

[Crystalline]

Ah, I love it when the foreshadowing is so clear later on that I can see it.

[TheBlackShadow]

If a group of beings- who aren't omnicogniscient- decide what makes things good or evil, that sounds subjective to me.

Not according to The Rules, unfortunately. One of the things I wish they would change, but they never really get around to it.

[Reverent-One]

That is a very ethnocentric attitude to take. Just because the culture you are from defines object X (slavery in this case) as evil does not mean that object X is evil to other cultures. What is evil in one culture may not be evil in another. Having said all that, I understand that OotS and D&D are far different than the real world and in those worlds object X can be evil.

And just because object X isn't considered evil in some culture doesn't mean that culture isn't wrong.

[Porthos]

If a group of beings- who aren't omnicogniscient- decide what makes things good or evil, that sounds subjective to me.

The rulebooks make it so. :smalltongue:

[Turalisj]

That is a very ethnocentric attitude to take. Just because the culture you are from defines object X (slavery in this case) as evil does not mean that object X is evil to other cultures. What is evil in one culture may not be evil in another. Having said all that, I understand that OotS and D&D are far different than the real world and in those worlds object X can be evil.

Alright then, let me find a culture that has no rules about personal property...

I think I'll adapt the Jedi culture :smalltongue:

[Porthos]

What is evil in one culture may not be evil in another

<posting shortcut>
Godwin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law).
</posting shortcut>

Yes, you did say "may not be". My point still stands. :smalltongue:

[Shale]

It might be subjectively decided, but what the decision is is still objective fact. Think of it like an umpire's call at a baseball game. You can say the ump is blind, he doesn't know what he's talking about, that was obviously a strike by three feet, and so on and so on, but because of the objective fact that he said "ball," it goes into the books as a ball.

[Marnath]

And just because object X isn't considered evil in some culture doesn't mean that culture isn't wrong.

Also, the D&D rules of morality are absolutely based on modern Western morality. Saying "culture X does this and thinks it's fine" is pretty meaningless when the rules objectively state that it's still wrong, even if you think otherwise.

[Mr. Snuggles]

Actually Nero choose burning to death for exactly the reason Tarquin used it, it makes a big spectacle. Crucifixion could last over a week but doesn't look nearly as spectacular in the short run.
Check out this famous painting (http://art.thewalters.org/webimages/PS1_37.113_Fnt_DD_T09.jpg), which I'm sure the author has seen before. It combines everything - death by arena, crucifixion and burning. Good ol' Nero! Everybody loves a cuddly tyrant.

It was pretty cruel for Haley and V to send those slaves off to certain death. Come on, they had to expect a response from the authorities after the crime had been discovered. It was pure selfish desire - "I want to feel good by jailbreaking slaves, and I don't care if it's a good idea or not." Very effective way of portraying the Neutral alignment.