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WarKitty
2010-11-19, 10:46 AM
I want to build a level, say, 5 character with the highest possible unarmored AC. What classes/races would you pick?


Ok, a few modifications:

(1) No armor means no actual *armor*. Other gear (such as monk's belt) is fine.

(2) No wildshape or other polymorph-type stuff.

(3) Must be at least competent in melee.

Edit: The idea is to recreate the classic loin-cloth barbarian. A task which the D&D barbarian does an awful job of.

Psyren
2010-11-19, 10:49 AM
By "Unarmored" do you mean "with no gear at all," "without wearing a metal/leather/etc. cage everywhere" or simply "with no armor bonus?"

Kaww
2010-11-19, 10:53 AM
If you said lvl 6 I would have said ~40. Since my player did it once.
Druid can get pretty high unarmored AC - Desmodu Hunting Bat has 20 AC to start with. With VoP your AC bonuses stack while wild shaped, so add +5 exalted AC, + barkskin... I would say ~30 with cat's grace etc.

WarKitty
2010-11-19, 11:04 AM
Ok, a few modifications:

(1) No armor means no actual *armor*. Other gear (such as monk's belt) is fine.

(2) No wildshape or other polymorph-type stuff.

(3) Must be at least competent in melee.

Kaww
2010-11-19, 11:06 AM
As said I saw ~40 at lvl6 (ECL 8) with saint template.
If the template was applicable at lvl 4 it would have been 38 at ECL 6.
EDIT: What does 'competent in melee' mean?

Psyren
2010-11-19, 11:06 AM
So you're fine with getting an armor bonus by other means, right? (e.g. Mage Armor.) And are shields okay?

WarKitty
2010-11-19, 11:13 AM
EDIT: What does 'competent in melee' mean?

Capable of being a front-line melee fighter in a non-optimized game and actually hit something at least half the time, plus having enough hit points to not get splattered. Essentially, I'm trying to build your classic loincloth barbarian.


So you're fine with getting an armor bonus by other means, right? (e.g. Mage Armor.) And are shields okay?

Mage armor and such are ok, as long as I don't have to depend on a pet caster all the time. Shields are not optimal but manageable.

Vladislav
2010-11-19, 11:15 AM
I get AC 37 on level 2.

Halfling (Dex 20, +5, and +1 size)
Monk 1 (Wisdom to AC, +4)
Wizard 1 (Mage Armor, +4), Shield (+4 shield), and using the Precocious Apprentice feat to cast Alter Self into a Troglodyte (+6 natural).
Law Devotion feat for +3 AC.

Do what you may with the other three levels.

WarKitty
2010-11-19, 11:18 AM
I get AC 37 on level 2.

Halfling (Dex 20, +5, and +1 size)
Monk 1 (Wisdom to AC, +4)
Wizard 1 (Mage Armor, +4), Shield (+4 shield), and using the Precocious Apprentice feat to cast Alter Self into a Troglodyte (+6 natural).
Law Devotion feat for +3 AC.

Do what you may with the other three levels.

I did say no polymorph. But other than that looks good.

Vladislav
2010-11-19, 11:21 AM
I am an idiot, by Altering Self into a trog he loses the +1 size bonus of course. So only 36. :smallbiggrin:

Kaww
2010-11-19, 11:40 AM
Also Alter self requires you to be able to cast it? Since the target is you? Shield is also personal...

ericgrau
2010-11-19, 11:41 AM
I get AC 37 on level 2.

Halfling (Dex 20, +5, and +1 size)
Monk 1 (Wisdom to AC, +4)
Wizard 1 (Mage Armor, +4), Shield (+4 shield), and using the Precocious Apprentice feat to cast Alter Self into a Troglodyte (+6 natural).
Law Devotion feat for +3 AC.

Do what you may with the other three levels.

Monks can't use shields while retaining their AC. Generally for purely theoretical AC you dump all your levels into races and templates rather than classes. At low levels alter self gets around that, but only for an hour or less. You could be an actual troglodyte to keep the AC all day, or with higher LA+HD races you could go beyond a troglodyte's AC. Also dunno how you expect 18s in both dex and wis.

Eloel
2010-11-19, 11:43 AM
Class is Monk/Psychic Warrior with Tashalatora. Race, probably Strongheart Halfling

AtwasAwamps
2010-11-19, 11:45 AM
Monks can't use shields while retaining their AC. Generally for purely theoretical AC you dump all your levels into races and templates rather than classes. At low levels alter self gets around that, but only for an hour or less. You could be an actual troglodyte to keep the AC all day, or with higher LA+HD races you could go beyond a troglodyte's AC. Also dunno how you expect 18s in both dex and wis.

...It's the shield spell. Not an actual +4 shield wielded at level 2.

Vladislav
2010-11-19, 11:49 AM
Also Alter self requires you to be able to cast it? Since the target is you? Shield is also personal... As luck would have it, he happens to be a level 1 Wizard with the Precocious Apprentice feat. It's actually right there in my post.


Monks can't use shields while retaining their AC.


These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load. It's a Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm) spell, not an actual shield. You don't "carry" a shield spell.



Generally for purely theoretical AC you dump all your levels into races and templates rather than classes. At low levels alter self gets around that, but only for an hour or less. You could be an actual troglodyte to keep the AC all day, or with higher LA+HD races you could go beyond a troglodyte's AC.This is a good point, I guess.

WarKitty
2010-11-19, 11:51 AM
Hmmm...perhaps I should rephrase the question.

I don't need AC through the roof. I need to build a level 5 unarmored character who is a competent melee fighter, while being roughly within WBL and leaving myself enough gold for a good weapon and whatever potions and other items I need. So, let's say shoot for an AC of 20. Preferably while maintaining an average of d10 hit die, martial weapon proficiency, and not suffering from a severe case of MAD.

Vladislav
2010-11-19, 11:53 AM
Hmmm...perhaps I should rephrase the question.

I don't need AC through the roof. I need to build a level 5 unarmored character who is a competent melee fighter, while being roughly within WBL and leaving myself enough gold for a good weapon and whatever potions and other items I need. So, let's say shoot for an AC of 10. Preferably while maintaining an average of d10 hit die, martial weapon proficiency, and not suffering from a severe case of MAD.Can you afford 18 in both WIS and DEX? What kind of point buy are we talking about?

Kaww
2010-11-19, 11:53 AM
You have 0 bab, 18 on dex and 18 on wisdom and how much on int and con?
Also you lose dex when you alter self?
I didn't notice the wiz part... :smallredface:

WarKitty
2010-11-19, 11:54 AM
Can you afford 18 in both WIS and DEX? What kind of point buy are we talking about?

Well, all the games I've played in have rolled stats, not point buy. But let's say 32 point buy. Can you really build an effective dex-based melee? I was hoping to go the PA line. It seems more like a greataxe character than a rapier character.

Eloel
2010-11-19, 12:02 PM
Well, all the games I've played in have rolled stats, not point buy. But let's say 32 point buy. Can you really build an effective dex-based melee? I was hoping to go the PA line. It seems more like a greataxe character than a rapier character.

If you're looking for unarmored AC, you're looking at a finesse character. Probably a Swordsage with Shadow Blade & Weapon Finesse. And Assassin's Stance.

Greenish
2010-11-19, 12:02 PM
Can you really build an effective dex-based melee? I was hoping to go the PA line. It seems more like a greataxe character than a rapier character.You want Dex-based greataxe wielding unarmoured combatant? Any preferences for a race?

ericgrau
2010-11-19, 12:05 PM
Oh this is practical not theoretical. Then I'd say you're in a lot of trouble and I wonder why you're doing this. I'd try a reach weapon + expansion to keep foes from getting near you. You can still work on your touch AC for ranged spells and maybe take monk to level 2 for deflect arrows + evasion. At such a low level a monk's belt isn't all that affordable.

WarKitty
2010-11-19, 12:05 PM
You want Dex-based greataxe wielding unarmoured combatant? Any preferences for a race?

Not really. It doesn't have to be a greataxe specifically, but it needs to be something that actually feels like a *barbarian*.

Basically, this:
http://diablo3x.com/files/2010/02/diii-female-barbarian1.jpg
http://www.dungeonmastering.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/barbarian.jpg


Oh this is practical not theoretical. Then I'd say you're in a lot of trouble and I wonder why you're doing this. I'd try a reach weapon + expansion to keep foes from getting near you. You can still work on your touch AC for ranged spells and maybe take monk to level 2 for deflect arrows.

Because I want to play your fantasy fur loincloth barbarian and I'm trying to figure out how I can actually do that. Essentially, I want to be Conan.

nyarlathotep
2010-11-19, 12:08 PM
The unarmored AC bonuses in Unearthed Arcana might work well for this.

ericgrau
2010-11-19, 12:11 PM
IIRC barbarians are only half-naked in the movies and walking around outside of war. During war they put on armor.

The only practical reason I could think of for going armorless would be speed, mobility and so on. And even then light armor would work fine. If you can get a friendly mage armor that'd be about as good as light armor though. Then next figure out which skills you can exploit like tumble since you have no armor check penalty.

With some kind of powerful build you could wield a large sized rapier in two hands (or 1 if you want), weapon finesse it, and get 1.5 times strength mod to damage.

Ruinix
2010-11-19, 12:12 PM
there is a loophole wich can easyly achieve 40 AC Dodge bonus.

1- buy 2 Boot Blade 2 Elbow Blades 2 Knee Blades 2 Sleeve blades.C.Scoundrel p.110
2- make all those weapons (8 in total) DEFENDING weapons, wich is a +1 enhance propertie. DMG p224
3- make a wizard apply greater magic weapon for a +5.
4-the same wizard apply permanency on those weapons.
5- ??? maybe kill the wizard :p
6- profit
7- each round transfer the +5 to hit from those weapons to ur dodge as swift action

WarKitty
2010-11-19, 12:13 PM
IIRC barbarians are only half-naked in the movies and walking around outside of war. During war they put on armor.

The only practical reason I could think of for going armorless would be speed, mobility and so on. And even then light armor would work fine. If you can get a friendly mage armor that'd help though, then next figure out which skills you can exploit like tumble since you have no armor check penalty.

Yeah it happens in movies. It's fantasy, I want to make it happen here, and to hell with realism. If my mage friend can study some books and start generating fireballs from his palms, I ought to be able to walk around in a loincloth and have swords bounce off my skin. :smallcool:

So, no it's not a practical reason. But it's *cool*.

Ernir
2010-11-19, 12:14 PM
If you don't need an AC over 9000, you could just take any old Con-heavy build and dip Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion). It doesn't solve all AC troubles ever, but it does/will provide about as much AC as a full plate can (which also applies to your touch AC!).

It doesn't look like it fits your concept, but gishes have very effective ways to get some stratospheric ACs.

Master_Rahl22
2010-11-19, 12:15 PM
Hmm, you realize that AC 10 is what you get for having a 0 Dex bonus and wearing no armor and having nothing else that contributes to AC? It's not exactly a high benchmark.

If you're really looking to be completely unarmored and not just fluff it that way, you have a few options. You could play some class that allows you to buff your own AC for combat, or find ways to not care about AC.

An example of buffing yourself would of course be some sort of gish, with a level or two of some spell casting class purely to allow you to use wands/scrolls of useful spells. Another and possibly better example for what you're asking is to play a Totemist from Magic of Incarnum. They have the Barbarian/in touch with nature/uncivilized fluff and feel, synergize well with the actual Barbarian class if you want Rage (there's even the Totem Rager prestige class for progressing Rage and Meldshaping), and the soulmelds you shape can provide AC or miss chances to improve your defense.

An example of not caring about AC would be having Mirror Image and Blink active on you. It kinda doesn't matter what your AC is when there are some flat % chances that you won't get hit anyway. Another example of not caring about AC would be a Frenzied Berserker who's simply not going to die no matter how much damage he takes until the Rage is over.

WarKitty
2010-11-19, 12:17 PM
Hmm, you realize that AC 10 is what you get for having a 0 Dex bonus and wearing no armor and having nothing else that contributes to AC? It's not exactly a high benchmark.

If you're really looking to be completely unarmored and not just fluff it that way, you have a few options. You could play some class that allows you to buff your own AC for combat, or find ways to not care about AC.

An example of buffing yourself would of course be some sort of gish, with a level or two of some spell casting class purely to allow you to use wands/scrolls of useful spells. Another and possibly better example for what you're asking is to play a Totemist from Magic of Incarnum. They have the Barbarian/in touch with nature/uncivilized fluff and feel, synergize well with the actual Barbarian class if you want Rage (there's even the Totem Rager prestige class for progressing Rage and Meldshaping), and the soulmelds you shape can provide AC or miss chances to improve your defense.

An example of not caring about AC would be having Mirror Image and Blink active on you. It kinda doesn't matter what your AC is when there are some flat % chances that you won't get hit anyway. Another example of not caring about AC would be a Frenzied Berserker who's simply not going to die no matter how much damage he takes until the Rage is over.

Aaaah I mean +10 to AC, for a total of 20.

ericgrau
2010-11-19, 12:17 PM
Glamered armor could be disguised as a loin cloth for a mere 2,700 gp.

Otherwise I'd resort to magic like mage armor, get a high dex and exploit your added mobility as said above. After all mobility is cool too. Btw powerful build isn't worth the trouble just for a 1d8 rapier, but that way your sword is bigger without eating a -2 penalty. A rapier is finessable but since it's actually a one handed weapon you can do anything with it that you could with a two handed weapon.

Keld Denar
2010-11-19, 12:18 PM
Kobold Monk2/PsyWar3

1 Dragonwraught
M1 Stunning Fist?
M2 Monastic Training (PsyWar)
3 Tash
PW1 Practiced Manifester
PW2 Overchannel

PsyWar powers:
1 Inertial Armor
1 Force Screen
1 Compression

Relevant gear
Torc of Power Preservation (MIC) 5/day reduced augement cost by 1 point. At level 5 WBL, should have enough cash left over to tack on +2 NA on that amulet and get a +1 ring of protection.

Dragonwraught + level 4 bump brings Wis up to 22, Dex is 20 base after racials.

Overchannel + Torc means I can get a ML of 7. That gets me 2 size reductions with Compression, +5 shield bonus from force screen, and +7 armor bonus from Inertial Armor. Compression boosts Dex by 4 points for a 24 base.

10 base
+3 size
+3 natural
+7 Dex
+6 Wis
+5 shield
+7 armor
+1 deflection
+1 monk (from having 5 effective monk levels)

= 43

Not too shabby, eh?

Greenish
2010-11-19, 12:23 PM
Not really. It doesn't have to be a greataxe specifically, but it needs to be something that actually feels like a *barbarian*.

Basically, thisThose don't look dex-based.

Anyhow, what you want is good ol' Fist of the Forest. Mix it up with some barbarian, warblade, fighter, bloodclaw master to taste.

Let's see, level 5…

Human barb1 (whirling frenzy & pounce)/fighter1 (hit and run)/warblade2/fist of the forest 1.

Pointbuy (32): STR: 16 DEX: 14 CON: 16 INT: 12 WIS: 10 CHA: 8
Feats: IUS, Great Fortitude (human), Power Attack (fighter), Extra Rage.

Con to AC, some maneuvers, dex to damage vs flat footed, init bonus, basic charger goodies, decent backup weapon. Later you could add some Bloodclaw Master to TWF with a greataxe and unarmed strike (both PA'able Tiger Claw weapons).

[Edit]:
A rapier is finessable but since it's actually a one handed weapon you can do anything with it that you could with a two handed weapon.Except get 2:1 returns with PA. I think they meant that you can't two-hand it at all, but by RAW you can, you just don't get 2:1 PA.

Greensleeve
2010-11-19, 12:26 PM
-snip-

Not too shabby, eh?

Pretty nice. Not really your average loin-cloth wearing barbarian though...

I suggest just using Defense Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) instead of armour. It's a variant rule made for exactly what you want to do.

WarKitty
2010-11-19, 12:29 PM
Those don't look dex-based.

Anyhow, what you want is good ol' Fist of the Forest. Mix it up with some barbarian, warblade, fighter, bloodclaw master to taste.

Let's see, level 5…

Human barb1 (whirling frenzy & pounce)/fighter1 (hit and run)/warblade2/fist of the forest 1.

Pointbuy (32): STR: 16 DEX: 14 CON: 16 INT: 12 WIS: 10 CHA: 8
Feats: IUS, Great Fortitude (human), Power Attack (fighter), Extra Rage.

Con to AC, some maneuvers, dex to damage vs flat footed, init bonus, basic charger goodies, decent backup weapon. Later you could add some Bloodclaw Master to TWF with a greataxe and unarmed strike (both PA'able Tiger Claw weapons).

I'm liking fist of the forest, thanks. Easy enough prerequisites, human race, and Con is always a good stat for a melee.

Greenish
2010-11-19, 12:33 PM
I'm liking fist of the forest, thanks. Easy enough prerequisites, human race, and Con is always a good stat for a melee.One of my favourite PrCs, too, though the fluff is a bit too written into mechanics (Living like an animal is a class feature?).

Trying to grab Meager Fortitude as a flaw to take Great Fortitude is always great fun. :smallwink:

Keld Denar
2010-11-19, 12:34 PM
Doesn't come into play by 5, but you can get a lot of synergy out of Con. Deepwarden + Fist of the Forest gets you Con to AC twice. Then look for ways to increase your Con. The simplest way is Rage. Normally Rage gives you -2 AC for +4 Con. With either FotF or Deepwarden, that +4 Con offsets the -2 AC. With both, your AC actually goes UP when you rage. Bear Warrior doubles the Con bonus you get from Rage, increasing your AC by 6 instead of 2. It also qualifies you for Warshaper which can give you 4 more Con for another 4 points of AC.

Best part? All this AC bonus is TOUCH AC as well, since its not derived from armor or a shield.

RndmNumGen
2010-11-19, 01:44 PM
Not sure if it's the best, but it is probably more attainable:

Air Goblin Monk 2/Fighter 2/Sorcerer 1
Stats:
14 STR(16-2)
18 DEX(14+4)
10 CON(12-2)
10 INT
16 WIS
12 CHR

Feats:
Improved Unarmed Strike(Monk)
Stunning Fist(Monk)
Deflect Arrows(Monk)
Two-Weapon Fighting(Fighter)
Weapon Focus(Fighter)
Two-Weapon Defense
Dodge
Versatile Spellcaster


This gives the character 19 AC normally(+4 AC from DEX, +3 from WIS, +1 Shield from Two-Weapon Defense, +1 Size). They gain an additional +1 dodge bonus from the Dodge feat against one enemy. With Versatile Spellcaster, they can cast Mage Armor up to 5 timer per day for an extra 4 AC, bringing the total up to 24. They can also cast Shield, but that would negate the bonus from Two-Weapon Defense.

They have a +3 BAB, +1 with one type of weapon(from Weapon Focus) and +2 STR modifier for a total +6 Attack Bonus. Not outstanding, but it is moderately good.

ericgrau
2010-11-19, 02:24 PM
[Edit]: Except get 2:1 returns with PA. I think they meant that you can't two-hand it at all, but by RAW you can, you just don't get 2:1 PA.
You can wield a one handed weapon in two hands and get every benefit there is. It matters how it's wielded not the type of weapon. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack) Ditto for everything else besides PA.

I selected the rapier because it's one of the few finessable weapons that can be wielded in two hands. And it fits his fluff, especially if he makes it bigger, and if he doesn't mind restricted it to stabs instead of slashes. If he finds a way around dex using ways that others seem to be providing then there's no point to it anymore.

Greenish
2010-11-19, 02:33 PM
You can wield a one handed weapon in two hands and get every benefit there is. It matters how it's wielded not the type of weapon. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack) Ditto for everything else besides PA.
You can’t wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1½ times your Strength bonus to damage. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#rapier)Okay, it was the 1.5x strength you couldn't get out of rapier, not 2:1 PA returns, by RAW.

I should think the designers intended to deny two-handing with it in general, though.

[Edit]: I should point out that most Finessable one-handed weapons I can think of have the same clause.

Joshinthemosh
2010-11-19, 02:33 PM
Other people have said some of the things in here already, but here is a full build. Bearfist Fistbear. Con to AC. Twice. In no armor.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9111595&postcount=107

Coidzor
2010-11-19, 02:53 PM
What are your feelings on Damage Reduction?

Also, Ysgardian Heart Wire (From, I believe BoED or AE&G) delivers armor that actually is nothing but a loincloth.

Edit: Is Gloryborn Armor, sorry. I believe is supposed to be fluffed as from Ysgard though, hence my confusion.

RandomLunatic
2010-11-19, 02:58 PM
Well, here is what I got after picking through the SRD a bit.

Svirfneblin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gnome.htm#svirfneblin) LA 3/Overwhelming Attack Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#overwhelmingAttack)/Whirling Frenzy Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy )
Abilities (32-point buy)
STR: 16
DEX: 16
CON: 12
INT: 10
WIS: 16
CHA: 4

Feats:
HD 1: Open slot (Could be Improved Buckler Defense for even more AC)
Monk 1 Bonus: Power Attack
HD 3: Extra Rage

AC: 10(base) + 3 (Dex) + 3 (Wis) + 4 (Racial) + 1 (Size)=21, increases to 23 when frenzied.

You are not going to be great (your attack bonus is a nice fat +6 at ECL 6), but you are a barbarian with decent STR , Power Attack, and a two-hander-you cannot go all wrong. Add on the Lion Spirit Totem ACF, and you make a fairly decent charger.

SurlySeraph
2010-11-19, 04:02 PM
What are your feelings on Damage Reduction?

Also, Ysgardian Heart Wire (From, I believe BoED or AE&G) delivers armor that actually is nothing but a loincloth.

You mean Gloryborn Armor. Heart Wire is just an add-on to your existing armor that reduces the likelihood of critical hits.

Coidzor
2010-11-19, 04:27 PM
You mean Gloryborn Armor. Heart Wire is just an add-on to your existing armor that reduces the likelihood of critical hits.

What's the source on it? DMG 2?

Lapak
2010-11-19, 08:05 PM
Those don't look dex-based.

Anyhow, what you want is good ol' Fist of the Forest. Mix it up with some barbarian, warblade, fighter, bloodclaw master to taste.Hmm. This does look like a good choice.

To throw out another idea, how does a barbarian/totemist going into Fist of the Forest and then Totem Rager sound? Soulmelds would open up a lot of options well in the DR, melee attack and/or AC bonus department.