Broken spell?

[Old Man NPC]

How is alter self broken? Logic ninja says it can do ridiculous things, but I don't see how... =/

[Greenish]

How is alter self broken?Flight, burrow, climb or +6 NA for 10 min/level for a second level spell is a bit much.

And thats without trying.

[Fouredged Sword]

Step one be a wizard

Step two prepare alter self

Step three - never again prepare a whole list of spells from any number of spell levels when you can replace them all with one level two spell.

[Moriato]

Step one be a wizard

Step two prepare alter self

Step three - never again prepare a whole list of spells from any number of spell levels when you can replace them all with one level two spell.

Care to elaborate on how Alter Self replaces all your other spells?

[Fouredged Sword]

You can get a wide variety of personal buffs for a good duration from one spell. It allows a wizard to prepare one spell and have many many effects that spell can become. Flexability and power in one package is a broken level 2 spell. Think of it as mini shapechange.

[Aquillion]

Care to elaborate on how Alter Self replaces all your other spells?Alter Self has the potential to grant:

Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth).Obviously getting all of this from one level 2 spell is broken (flight alone is a level 3 spell!)

It's just a matter of knowing the right thing to Alter Self into. And there were a lot of things published in 3.x... without people really thinking of "oh, hey, if I make this flying humanoid, Alter Self breaks!" (Because seriously, who can remember every single spell every time they write a monster?)

Here's (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=343.0) a list of possible forms. Remember, this one spell grants you access to all of that, within your Type subheading.

Of special note for humans...

Skulk: +8 to Move Silently, +15 to Hide.
Avarial: 50ft fly speed.
Asabi: 50ft speed, 20ft burrow speed, combat reflexes, Jump Lengths Increased
Varag: 60ft speed, 2xclaw (1d4), 1xbite (1d4), Multiattack, Run and Spring Attack bonus feats.

[Bayar]

How is alter self broken? Logic ninja says it can do ridiculous things, but I don't see how... =/

1. Be an outsider.
2. Prepare Alter self.
3. Be level 5.
4. Open your Monster Manual to page 52.
5. ???
6. Enjoy your +18 to natural armor.

[tyckspoon]

Care to elaborate on how Alter Self replaces all your other spells?

Just from the SRD, you can grab +6 Natural Armor along with 2 claws and a bite from becoming a Troglodyte. The next closest spell for the NA is Barkskin, which also lasts 10 min/level.. but only grants +2 when first available, and only scales to +5 at 12th level, and doesn't stack with an Amulet of Natural Armor or other NA Enhancement source. You can get a Swim speed from three different Humanoids. If you're really desperate for it, you can turn into something to get its racial bonus feats and skill modifiers. That's three uses from a single spell, and the first two are notably better than the single-purpose spells that do the same thing.

Expand beyond the Core books, and some more silliness opens up with things like winged Humanoids (Raptorans, the FR flying elves), improved semi-monstrous Humanoids (Tren and Crucians bother offer +8 Natural Armor) and exotic Climbing/Burrowing Humanoids. So you've got 5-8 really good options from this single low-level, fairly long duration spell, and they're options that are better than single-purpose spells several level higher.

[Vladislav]

It can grant a massive armor bonus.
It can grant natural attacks.
It can grant flight, swimming & breathing underwater, or burrowing.
It can grant racial feats. Basically, if there is a humanoid race with racial bonus feat X in any book, you can emulate feat X. Same for racial skill bonuses.
It's the ultimate disguise in social situations.
You can cast this spell on your familiar, and your familiar's type is Magical Beast. Profit!
If you're a Dragonwrought Kobold, your type is Dragon. Profit!
If you have the Otherworldly template feat, your type is Outsider. Profit!

It does ALL OF THAT in a single level 2 spell.

[Greenish]

If you have the Otherworldly template, your type is Outsider. Profit!Isn't Otherwordly a feat?

And of course you could just be a chaos frog.

[Vladislav]

Sorry, feat. Not much difference. Still broken.

[thompur]

Would reducing the duration of Alter Self to 1rd/lvl reduce it's effective power enough to put it in line with other 2nd level spells?

[Eldariel]

Would reducing the duration of Alter Self to 1rd/lvl reduce it's effective power enough to put it in line with other 2nd level spells?

"Fly" is a level 3 spell at 1 min/level. Alter Self does that and about 1000 things more on level 2. Alter Self is more of a level 4 than a level 2 spell. Though yeah, giving it short duration would obviously help a bit. Not the kinda fix I'd want tho; you'd still be able to Quicken with level 6 slots and just abuse the fact that it's still nuts. And Persist on 8. Just increasing its level would be the best fix. Or limiting what it can do. Like cap the Natural Armor to what Barkskin can give you.

[ericgrau]

Flight, burrow, climb or +6 NA for 10 min/level for a second level spell is a bit much.

And thats without trying.

In fairness core limits you to swim or +6 NA, with less duration and higher spell level than mage armor in exchange for a higher bonus. All those other pesky monsters outside the SRD cause ridiculous things like a fly spell that lasts longer than fly.

[Tyndmyr]

In fairness core limits you to swim or +6 NA, with less duration and higher spell level than mage armor in exchange for a higher bonus. All those other pesky monsters outside the SRD cause ridiculous things like a fly spell that lasts longer than fly.

Mage armor is armor bonus, not na, though. So it stacks!

Yay!

[Dusk Eclipse]

Isn't Otherwordly a feat?

And of course you could just be a chaos frog.

Actually IIRC the big frogs from Limbo are usually neutral... need to check Manual of the planes, which is currently on loan... can somebody check it for me please?

[Eldariel]

In fairness core limits you to swim or +6 NA, with less duration and higher spell level than mage armor in exchange for a higher bonus. All those other pesky monsters outside the SRD cause ridiculous things like a fly spell that lasts longer than fly.

Unless you're a non-Humanoid with +1 LA. Also, +6 NA stacks with Mage Armor doing totally ridiculous stuff like AC in the 30s on level 3.

[Otodetu]

Seeing this thread it becomes clear to me why i nerfed the spell to just the transformation.

If the spell became disguise only, would 1\hour level be justified?

[ericgrau]

Unless you're a non-Humanoid with +1 LA. Also, +6 NA stacks with Mage Armor doing totally ridiculous stuff like AC in the 30s on level 3.

Eh you need other tricks for that. I see 20 AC plus dex on the wizard only since it's a personal spell. Or for a gish. If it wasn't personal only it might be different. Temporarily getting an AC that's at or a little below par is a fair use of a spell slot. Maybe even a little weak of a strategy for a back liner.

[Otodetu]

Eh you need other tricks for that. I see 20 AC plus dex on the wizard only since it's a personal spell. Or for a gish. If it wasn't personal only it might be different. Temporarily getting an AC that's at or a little below par is a fair use of a spell slot. Maybe even a little weak of a strategy for a back liner.

Thats is a easy ac of 23 with 16 dex.

A cleric or other armoured martial character with a full plate armour, heavy shield and 12 dex sits at 21 ac.

The armoured figure is slow and burdened with high check penalty, not to mention that gear is expensive.

[faceroll]

"Fly" is a level 3 spell at 1 min/level. Alter Self does that and about 1000 things more on level 2. Alter Self is more of a level 4 than a level 2 spell. Though yeah, giving it short duration would obviously help a bit.
Not the kinda fix I'd want tho; you'd still be able to Quicken with level 6 slots and just abuse the fact that it's still nuts. And Persist on 8. Just increasing its level would be the best fix. Or limiting what it can do. Like cap the Natural Armor to what Barkskin can give you.

What's wrong with it being quickened or persisted at levels 6 and 8 respectively? At level 15, alter self lasts 150 minutes, which is pretty much an entire adventuring day. Having it last 24 hours isn't that much worse, but now you're burning an 8th level slot. Level 6 slot to cast a nifty get out of a bad situation spell? Not terrible. But you've already had polymorph for four levels.



Eh you need other tricks for that. I see 20 AC plus dex on the wizard only since it's a personal spell. Or for a gish. If it wasn't personal only it might be different. Temporarily getting an AC that's at or a little below par is a fair use of a spell slot. Maybe even a little weak of a strategy for a back liner.

A trog has an AC of 15. With mage armor, you get that up to 19. I'm not sure where the other 11 is coming from. Even in +1 full plate, that's only 24 AC. Nowhere near this 30 AC. If you had a druid and cleric around, you could get that up to 28 AC. Still not 30s. I guess a dex boost from Cat's Grace gets you 30 AC.

I guess trog AC 15 + the BoEF spell that gives you +5 AC and -4 on melee attacks gets you 24 AC, and that's a pretty feasible combination. Arguably, though, the BoEF is the real culprit here, granting effectively 9 AC vs melee attacks and lasting hr/level.

But you've used a lot of spells to get there, and you're wearing most of your WBL as a suit of armor as an arcane caster. While an entertaining academic exercise, it's not particularly practical.

[edit]
Ah, alter self lets you retain your own ability scores. So that boosts your AC by 1 to 4, depending on pointbuy and race. 25 AC at level 3 would be pretty cool. Still not 30s, though.

[Eldariel]

What's wrong with it being quickened or persisted at levels 6 and 8 respectively? At level 15, alter self lasts 150 minutes, which is pretty much an entire adventuring day. Having it last 24 hours isn't that much worse, but now you're burning an 8th level slot. Level 6 slot to cast a nifty get out of a bad situation spell? Not terrible. But you've already had polymorph for four levels.

This was about the hypothetical changes to changing it to 1 round/level; I was just pointing out that it'd still lead to anyone capable of casting it having much higher AC than anyone not capable of casting it in the long run.

[Urpriest]

Seeing this thread it becomes clear to me why i nerfed the spell to just the transformation.

If the spell became disguise only, would 1\hour level be justified?

Compare it to disguise self. Do you feel it gives enough additional benefit for the extra spell level in that form?

[faceroll]

This was about the hypothetical changes to changing it to 1 round/level; I was just pointing out that it'd still lead to anyone capable of casting it having much higher AC than anyone not capable of casting it in the long run.

Right, but at much, much higher levels, and requiring high level spell slots. At that point, you've got more than a second level spell to worry about (bite of X, polymorph, etc.)

[Otodetu]

25 AC at level 3 would be pretty cool. Still not 30s, though.

Let us say 16 dex, that result in +4 armour, +6 natural, +3 dex and +2 extra natural from barkskin, thats is a ac of 25 for 30 minutes, now if you add a shield spell you end up with 29.

If you really have good time available to buff, you can stack on a +2 deflection from the cleric too, getting a buffed ac of 31 at level 3

A cleric in full plate armour, a heavy shield and barkskin ends up with 23 ac, this can be buffed up to 25 with a shield of faith, but you are slow and have the damage potential of a sponge.



Compare it to disguise self. Do you feel it gives enough additional benefit for the extra spell level in that form?
I am not sure what you are trying to communicate, please expand on your thoughts, where you pointing to the effect or the duration?

[ericgrau]

Thats is a easy ac of 23 with 16 dex.

A cleric or other armoured martial character with a full plate armour, heavy shield and 12 dex sits at 21 ac.

The armoured figure is slow and burdened with high check penalty, not to mention that gear is expensive.

22 AC at level 3 because he has a +1 armor. And you need very high stats to get a 16 in your 3rd most important stat. The AC is pretty useless on someone who can't melee. Yay I can provoke on my spells now except I'm too low level to make my concentration checks. By the time it matters his AC won't be high enough anymore. Meanwhile if you do it at level 3 and don't wait to a higher level when the figure would be less impressive, you just burned away half your spells and it only lasts for half an hour. Then you're screwed. Casting shield not only screws you even more but it wastes a round of combat.

What exactly is broken about winning at a thought exercise while failing to do anything useful?

It would be better to wait until your'e casting at least 4th level spells so you can use 3rd and 4th level spells offensively (and still a couple 2nd level spells probably) and then blow your lower level spells on buffs. Now your AC is 4 behind the melee but at least you get a so-so defense on dungeon crawls but not in the wilderness (when the spell will run out). Except false life is a far better option at the same level. Being a personal spell on a class that almost dumps AC really kills the benefit of the +6 natural armor. A dozen temporary HP that lasts hours instead of 10 min/level on a class with d4 HD OTOH is win.

[nedz]

Its a brilliant spell for a Sorceror because its so flexible.
It can duplicate :-
Reduce Person
Disguise Self
Barkskin *cough*Improved*cough*
Water Breathing
Various other buffs allowing skill bonuses/racial feats etc.
You can use it for smuggling by absorbing almost anything you can carry.
Various movement options.
Aquiring three natural attacks.

With the inclusion of further monster manuals beyond core
Enlarge Person
Fly

*Yeah*

Oh and when it runs out, you just recast it.

One thing I've never been sure about is whether Humans should lose their racial bonus feat for the duration ?

[JaronK]

You also get skills from the creature... so a Skulk gives IIRC +15 to hide and +8 Move silently. That's not bad. Crucian gives +8 Natural AC. Air Mephling gives 10' perfect flight speed. Earth Mephling gives 10' burrow speed. Aquatic Elf gives 40' swim speed and the ability to breathe under water.

All those are humanoids.

JaronK

[herrhauptmann]

Here's (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=343.0) a list of possible forms. Remember, this one spell grants you access to all of that, within your Type subheading.


So what are the options for a lesser planetouched? Best of both worlds? They're humanoid right, but with the outsider subtype?

[Urpriest]

So what are the options for a lesser planetouched? Best of both worlds? They're humanoid right, but with the outsider subtype?

Just humanoid actually. Spells that hurt outsiders hurt you, but that's all you get. Alter Self just turns you into humanoids.

[herrhauptmann]

Dang, and here I was hoping I could make a gish that would turn into a Solar or Balor almost at will without level adjustment.

[Last Laugh]

I am not sure what you are trying to communicate, please expand on your thoughts, where you pointing to the effect or the duration?

From my understanding your version of the Alter Self spell functions as a more expensive (spell level 2) disguise self.

The advantage would of course be that Alter Self would make you appear to have wings/multiple arms/awesome features while disguise self only allows minor alteration.

I think that in most situations the level 1 Disguise Self would accomplish the same thing as your Alter Self, with disguises it is how creative you are and how much your character knows about racial trends. (don't turn into an elf to befriend the orcs) This nerf seems a bit much to me. Alter Self is a really cool spell, earlier it was suggested that you change it to a level 4 spell, which seems like a fair nerf to me.

[tyckspoon]

Dang, and here I was hoping I could make a gish that would turn into a Solar or Balor almost at will without level adjustment.

HD caps mean you need Shapechange and a high CL for that anyway, and by that time your Type is basically immaterial.

[Aquillion]

Would reducing the duration of Alter Self to 1rd/lvl reduce it's effective power enough to put it in line with other 2nd level spells?Personally, I'd jack the level up and maybe add a few more caps on what it can grant, especially removing some blank-check options like feats and capping any bonuses it grants at some number... but the thing is, it intuitively feels like it could be balanced, if it were higher level.

You just need to look at the range of stuff it's allowed to grant, and raise its level to the level of a spell that could grant all of that (and add additional restrictions for anything that it currently allows that feels like it could become unbounded or broken with the wrong creature -- like feats and massive skill bonuses.)

The new level is likely to be high, but I don't think it would be impossible to fit into the spell system in a balanced fashion (unlike other polymorph-line spells, which lack its constraints.)

[Thurbane]

1. Be an outsider.
2. Prepare Alter self.
3. Be level 5.
4. Open your Monster Manual to page 52.
5. ???
6. Enjoy your +18 to natural armor.
I might be missing something, but p.52 of my MM is Bearded Devil and Bone Devil. Neither of these has +18AC, and both are beyond the 5HD limit of Alter Self?

[herrhauptmann]

Dwarf Ancestor, monster manual 4.
Don't forget the DR 10/adamantine. I know DR is usually useless, but I think that 10 per hit is pretty nice.

[Thurbane]

Dwarf Ancestor, monster manual 4.
Don't forget the DR 10/adamantine. I know DR is usually useless, but I think that 10 per hit is pretty nice.
OK, that makes a bit more sense.

I don't think Alter Self gives DR, though?

[herrhauptmann]

OK, that makes a bit more sense.

I don't think Alter Self gives DR, though?

I'd have to look at it again, but the dwarf ancestor has it. So I figured the spell would grant it.

[Urpriest]

I'd have to look at it again, but the dwarf ancestor has it. So I figured the spell would grant it.

Pretty sure Alter Self doesn't give DR, or any other Special Qualities.