View Full Version : How would Tarquin deal with Xykon?
paladinofshojo
2010-11-20, 03:15 AM
just out of curiosity, since we know that Tarquin and Co. effectively rule the Western Continent, and that Xykon has made an impression on the Oootsverse after his conquest of Azure City. It isn't too much of a stretch of the imagination for Tarquin to know whom Xykon is. So how will he react when he realizes that a powerful lich with plans to conquer/destroy the world is coming...Will he try to strike an alliance with him, stop him from advancing with his plot, join him and then betray him, or simply ignore him for the sake of preserving his power and hoping that Xykon doesn't care much about the Continent in general...
Maximum Zersk
2010-11-20, 03:26 AM
He'll gain Xykon's trust (don't ask how, probably involves twelve pounds of ioun stones, Hurt & Burnie, A poster of Count Dracula, signed, and all the starfruit under the sky). Then, when Xykon least expects it, Tarquin will try to kill him.
Evil DM Mark3
2010-11-20, 03:43 AM
This guy has played Dragons as patsies, Xykon's levers are so obvious he is easy to manipulate.
Querzis
2010-11-20, 05:08 AM
This guy has played Dragons as patsies, Xykon's levers are so obvious he is easy to manipulate.
...how? When the hell did anyone ever manipulated Xykon successfully? Pretty much all his 'allies' tried to manipulate him and it backfired horribly. I really have to assume that was sarcasm cause Xykon is impossible to manipulate. When he see something he want he take it, no amount of diplomacy or playing with his 'levers' can make Xykon change his mind.
He'll gain Xykon's trust (don't ask how, probably involves twelve pounds of ioun stones, Hurt & Burnie, A poster of Count Dracula, signed, and all the starfruit under the sky). Then, when Xykon least expects it, Tarquin will try to kill him.
I really dont think Tarquin is that dumb. Trying to gain the trust of Xykon to be able to kill him is just like gaining the trust of a tiger by feeding him and then trying to kill it with your bare hands. Its just not gonna work.
...how? When the hell did anyone ever manipulated Xykon successfully? Pretty much all his 'allies' tried to manipulate him and it backfired horribly. I really have to assume that was sarcasm cause Xykon is impossible to manipulate. When he see something he want he take it, no amount of diplomacy or playing with his 'levers' can make Xykon change his mind.
Redcloak managed to manipulate him into staying longer, and although it cost him an eye he did succeed.
Evil DM Mark3
2010-11-20, 05:53 AM
...how? When the hell did anyone ever manipulated Xykon successfully? Pretty much all his 'allies' tried to manipulate him and it backfired horribly. I really have to assume that was sarcasm cause Xykon is impossible to manipulate. When he see something he want he take it, no amount of diplomacy or playing with his 'levers' can make Xykon change his mind.
Redcloak was able to keep him idling for a long time in Azure City, and the point is he was going about it all wrong. The way to control a person like Xykon is to give him what he wants, in a way that achives what you want. In fact I have just come up with a 5 point plan.
Install Xykon as ruler of one of the three empires.
Let him in on the scam.
Convince him that in order to get the gate and keep it safely (as the people here are very war hardened), he needs to control all three empires.
Trigger Elf invasion.
Find 3 prominet rebels to colate new empires around.
Now you might be saying that he is going to be annoyed with the whole conquering nations bit, but there is no real conquering needed here and he can use the "invading" armies to search for the gates (recall that this gate is not where it was reported to be). A skilled politician could well sell this. It would take a bit of effort, but it is more than plausible.
Johel
2010-11-20, 05:55 AM
...how? When the hell did anyone ever manipulated Xykon successfully? Pretty much all his 'allies' tried to manipulate him and it backfired horribly. I really have to assume that was sarcasm cause Xykon is impossible to manipulate. When he see something he want he take it, no amount of diplomacy or playing with his 'levers' can make Xykon change his mind.
While you can't prevent him to do something he wants, you can make him want to do something.
"-See... I don't know where that Girard is. Neither his gate. But I have eyes and ears. Give them sometime and, focused on this sole task, they will find out.
Of course, there's this specific artifact, hidden in the Dungeon of Certain Doom, that could make us win a few weeks, maybe months...
Shame I don't have enough minions and raw power to get to it."
Ancalagon
2010-11-20, 06:07 AM
This guy has played Dragons as patsies, Xykon's levers are so obvious he is easy to manipulate.
Redcloak made the same mistake in Start of Darkness. See where it has lead him...
BridgeCity
2010-11-20, 06:19 AM
. . .
Install Xykon as ruler of one of the three empires.
Let him in on the scam.
Convince him that in order to get the gate and keep it safely (as the people here are very war hardened), he needs to control all three empires.
Trigger Elf invasion.
Find 3 prominet rebels to colate new empires around.
I just can't see this working.
With one of the nations under his control, I see Xykon as more likely to zombify the entire populace, march on the other nations, zombify them, and have three Empire's worth of citizens as a massive search party that never needs to rest or be fed and watered, and that serve as a rather imposing army to hold off the elves with.
He isn't in it for the cushy life, so Tarquins scheme really wouldn't appeal to him.
Everyone is forgetting that Xykon already knows where the Gate is. He does not need Tarquin for anything, and there's no way he would believe that there was anyone more powerful than he is in order to threaten it (probably because there isn't). He doesn't care about ruling any of the empires, either. He's after the whole world.
Tarquin's best bet is to gather his five allies and simply strike Xykon as hard as possible with plenty of divination beforehand and the element of surprise. Xykon and Redcloak have no idea who Tarquin is, so they won't be expecting him. If they're all as high level as we know Malack is, they're at least as powerful as the OOTS, and possibly much more so. Especially if they have three full casters and the wealth of multiple empires to buy magic items. Basically, V had a decent shot with no preparation and no back-up, so Tarquin & friends should demolish him (at least before taking into account Plot Armor and such).
The best part is even if it fails, Xykon may actually respect Tarquin afterwards for adhering to his sledgehammer tactics and Power = Power philosophy.
Evil DM Mark3
2010-11-20, 06:40 AM
Everyone is forgetting that Xykon already knows where the Gate is. So did Soon, supposedly. He was there when the found the rift. And yet...
So did Soon, supposedly. He was there when the found the rift. And yet...
Xykon has Serini's diary, which has the correct location written in it.
TheBlackShadow
2010-11-20, 07:23 AM
Xykon has Serini's diary, which has the correct location written in it.
Unless Miss Toormuck is a bit smarter and wilier than we have previously given her credit for, but only time will tell on that one.
Lvl45DM!
2010-11-20, 07:27 AM
How would Tarquin deal with Xykon?
Poorly
Dude's arrogant. So is the big X. Both are powerful, in politics and fighting. Neither would back down. T would get drained to dust
Unless Miss Toormuck is a bit smarter and wilier than we have previously given her credit for, but only time will tell on that one.
Xykon has successfully decoded two Gate locations from the diary. If Serini was going to fake the location of Girard's Gate, why wouldn't she have faked the locations of every Gate? She obviously thought her diary was safe, or that the code was unbreakable, or she wouldn't have written them down in the first place. So there's very little likelihood that Xykon doesn't have the real location.
Narratively, it's even LESS likely, because if Rich was going to stall Xykon from going directly to the Gate by having his coordinates be wrong, then there would be no plot reason to have him lose his phylactery. That plot point's sole purpose is to delay Xykon from getting to Girard's Gate first, and it would be unnecessary if Xykon doesn't have the right location.
Irbis
2010-11-20, 08:16 AM
Xykon has successfully decoded two Gate locations from the diary. If Serini was going to fake the location of Girard's Gate, why wouldn't she have faked the locations of every Gate?
To be fair, faking the location of gates that happen to be in the major city or in the only castle within a hundred miles is going to be a bit... difficult.
Plus, it's not like she had no inspiration for hiding that one gate.
How would Tarquin deal with Xykon?
Poorly
Dude's arrogant. So is the big X. Both are powerful, in politics and fighting. Neither would back down. T would get drained to dust
This.
No area that holds Xykon is big enough for more than one ego. You survive around him only if you completely obliterate your own ego, like Redcloak. Refuse to do that, like Roy and like Redcloak's brother, and you die.
Lvl45DM!
2010-11-20, 09:02 AM
Or you kill Xykon. If T sends his armies, his party, the dragon and the OOTS against Xykon he might win. MAYBE. Cos Big X does also have Redcloak and Tsukiko and MItD.
Or you kill Xykon.
Both Roy and Redcloak's brother tried that, as I recall.
King of Nowhere
2010-11-20, 09:25 AM
I think tarquin would just try to ignore Xykon. Thhe world is big, there are plenty of heroes around, some of them is going to vanquish X sooner or later. No point sacrificing all Tarquin built in two decades to defeat Xykon. And i think Tarquin is smart enough to realize that manipulating Xykon is too risky to be worth the price (unless you're desperate and/or have no other choice, like redcloak).
On the other hand, if Tarquin couldn't avoid dealing with Xykon, i think xykon may come to like him. I mean,
"you know, that big 'Xykon' written with flaming letters is made of slaves who are being burned alive"
:xykon:"that makes it even greater! Give the old lich a big hug!"
ZZAP!
:xykon:"pff, i can't believe no one ever remembers the paralizing touch".
Lvl45DM!
2010-11-20, 09:29 AM
Tarquin has infinitely more resources at his disposal.
Also Roy DID kill Xykon. He just got better
Swordpriest
2010-11-20, 09:55 AM
I'm not sure how he'd try to deal with Xykon, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't come out well for Tarquin. As the Oracle said, "Dude is frickin' scary." If V couldn't take him with the soul splices, T isn't going to be able to do it with a sword, a fat dumb dragon, and a bunch of mooks.
Lvl45DM!
2010-11-20, 10:01 AM
AND 5 other party members, and he could have the OOTS on his side.
Ancalagon
2010-11-20, 10:03 AM
Or you kill Xykon.
Hum... as far as I got it, the Big Issue of the entire story here is that Xykon isn't easy to kill. Actually, this question is the one that will determine if the story is over or not.
In addition to Kish: Soon, Super Sayan Vaarsuvius, Dorukan, Lirian and a bunch of others also tried that. Note ALL mentioned chars have been in their epic levels and all failed (some even utterly and totally).
Tarquin is likely very powerful (possibly epic?) but Xykon is a very hard target.
Querzis
2010-11-20, 11:08 AM
Tarquin has infinitely more resources at his disposal.
...no he doesnt. Regular troops are utterly useless againt Xykon, they cant even overcome damage reduction. Beside, the three empires DONT know they are 'alllied' with each others, you cant make them all attack someone without revealing your strategy. So it all depends on if Tarquin party has any chance against Xykon and they dont. They simply dont. Especially not if the MITD sides with him.
Also Roy didnt beat Xykon. Durokan beat Xykon albeit posthumously. Xykon would have wiped the floor with the OOTS in the first encounter if he woudnt have needed them because of Durokan spells and it was a sigil created by Durokan that killed Xykon.
Gift Jeraff
2010-11-20, 11:34 AM
This guy has played Dragons as patsies, Xykon's levers are so obvious he is easy to manipulate.
The Empress is an idiot and cannot cast spells.
suszterpatt
2010-11-20, 11:38 AM
Hum... as far as I got it, the Big Issue of the entire story here is that Xykon isn't easy to kill. Actually, this question is the one that will determine if the story is over or not.
In addition to Kish: Soon, Super Sayan Vaarsuvius, Dorukan, Lirian and a bunch of others also tried that. Note ALL mentioned chars have been in their epic levels and all failed (some even utterly and totally).
Tarquin is likely very powerful (possibly epic?) but Xykon is a very hard target.To be fair, Soon and co. did technically defeat Xykon and Redcloak, it was Miko's meddling that got the two of them off the hook. Also, Darth V used horrendous spell choices (quickened chain lightning? really?), so there's that. No comment on Lirian/Dorukan, haven't read the prequels.
But yeah, when it takes an epic level paladin ghost to kill the big bad, things are pretty grim.
Cybertoy00
2010-11-20, 12:03 PM
I imagine the whole thing would devolve into another parody of Star Wars. REmember, both Xykon and Tarquin have quoted (Or TRIED to...) lines from the movies. And plus, Xykon can do that 'dark side lightning' like Palpatine. But if they do, it might end badly for Tarquin. Half the fun Xykon has is subverting obvious jokes and cliches. If Tarquin tries to play it too close to the hilt, Xykon would be all 'Meh, bored.' and zap him.
...no he doesnt. Regular troops are utterly useless againt Xykon, they cant even overcome damage reduction. Beside, the three empires DONT know they are 'alllied' with each others, you cant make them all attack someone without revealing your strategy. So it all depends on if Tarquin party has any chance against Xykon and they dont. They simply dont. Especially not if the MITD sides with him.
I don't think it would be a problem; while the three kingdoms can't openly admit that they work together, it's more than reasonable to pool resources to fight an common enemy. And an insanely powerful lich who already conquered a powerful nation definitely counts. in an open battle they migth have a chance; the mooks may be useless against Xykon himself, but they may distract the goblins and Miko and even Redcloak, so the powerful NSCs and PCs can concentrate their full strength on Xykon. With the money of three kingdoms they could buy neraly every highlevel caster on the continent and complete it with some magic items. SO chances are good, with MitD as unkown factor.
Of course, most likely Tarquin would try to deal with Xykon by manipulating him. And like Redcloak he would fail.
blackjack217
2010-11-20, 12:11 PM
I don't think it would be a problem; while the three kingdoms can't openly admit that they work together, it's more than reasonable to pool resources to fight an common enemy. And an insanely powerful lich who already conquered a powerful nation definitely counts. in an open battle they migth have a chance; the mooks may be useless against Xykon himself, but they may distract the goblins and Miko and even Redcloak, so the powerful NSCs and PCs can concentrate their full strength on Xykon. With the money of three kingdoms they could buy neraly every highlevel caster on the continent and complete it with some magic items. SO chances are good, with MitD as unkown factor.
Of course, most likely Tarquin would try to deal with Xykon by manipulating him. And like Redcloak he would fail.
huh????? :smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:
martianmister
2010-11-20, 12:31 PM
Of course, most likely Tarquin would try to deal with Xykon by manipulating him. And like Redcloak he would fail.
Redcloak is manipulating him in WHOLE story! Xykon will be a loser in one way or another...
Evil DM Mark3
2010-11-20, 12:55 PM
Xykon has successfully decoded two Gate locations from the diary. If Serini was going to fake the location of Girard's Gate, why wouldn't she have faked the locations of every Gate?
And Soon was THERE. IN PERSON. If the location was hidden from him it was probably hidden from them all.
Querzis
2010-11-20, 05:36 PM
And Soon was THERE. IN PERSON. If the location was hidden from him it was probably hidden from them all.
...how about your actually read the comic before posting?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html
The very first panel.
zimmerwald1915
2010-11-20, 05:57 PM
And Soon was THERE. IN PERSON. If the location was hidden from him it was probably hidden from them all.
One square kilometer of the Great Barren Desert probably looks very similar to almost every other square kilometer of the Great Barren Desert. The only way to tell which square kilometer has the gate in it, without landmarks or divination magic (the latter of which is off-limits to Paladins and is defeated by epic-level illusions anyway) is to navigate there by the stars. Of course, Soon, as a Paladin, does not have Survival as a class skill and probably doesn't have the skill points to invest in it anyway. Therefore, he doesn't know the first thing about actual navigation. He couldn't check the coordinates Girard gave him for the gate, nor would he have wanted to, being an honorable sort and ascribing honor to others.
SaintRidley
2010-11-20, 06:06 PM
One square kilometer of the Great Barren Desert probably looks very similar to almost every other square kilometer of the Great Barren Desert. The only way to tell which square kilometer has the gate in it, without landmarks or divination magic (the latter of which is off-limits to Paladins and is defeated by epic-level illusions anyway) is to navigate there by the stars. Of course, Soon, as a Paladin, does not have Survival as a class skill and probably doesn't have the skill points to invest in it anyway. Therefore, he doesn't know the first thing about actual navigation. He couldn't check the coordinates Girard gave him for the gate, nor would he have wanted to, being an honorable sort and ascribing honor to others.
And, to top it all off, epic illusion can render navigation by the stars useless or even more frustrating anyway.
Demonicbunny
2010-11-20, 06:24 PM
If anything Tarquin is both patient and a survivor.
He's survived being ganged up on by 26 other empires.
His empire didn't, but 20 years later (is that an accurate timespan?) he's back on track.
If he didn't have a clear advantage I think he'd probably fall back, let Xykon have what he wants and try again some other time.
Despite being immortal Xykon isn't the most patient fellow, and very focused on his goals.
Thanatosia
2010-11-20, 10:08 PM
Xykon would smoke Tarquin hard in any dirrect confrontation, be it personal combat or army vs army.
For those saying Tarquin would manipulate Xykon.... no. The only reason Redcloak gets any form of pretense to controling Xykon is because he got in on the 'ground floor' so to speak, when Xykon was still a bumbling idiot.. when he was human, Xykon was very similar to the Empress of Blood. After he became a Lich, he became smart, scary smart, he just hides it most of the time. Now I'd say Xykon is the one yanking Redcloaks chain while allowing redcloak to think he's still in the manipulator role. Look at the sub-arc where he's having Tsukiko reverse engineer the ritual - Xykon has kept RC around because he needs him for the ritual and because he was useful, and he's working to correct both those dependancies now.
Ultimately, if Xykon started heading towards the Empire of Blood, I think Tarquin would have the good sense to get the hell out of dodge, personally. The only way Tarquin is going to have anything to do with Xykon is if Xykon comes upon him unexpected or if he gets bad info leading him to massively underestimate X, which either way, will end badly for him.
Evil DM Mark3
2010-11-21, 04:25 AM
...how about your actually read the comic before posting?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html
The very first panel.Hmm.
OK, I stand corrected.
Mr. Bean
2010-11-21, 06:58 AM
Also Roy didnt beat Xykon. Durokan beat Xykon albeit posthumously. Xykon would have wiped the floor with the OOTS in the first encounter if he woudnt have needed them because of Durokan spells and it was a sigil created by Durokan that killed Xykon.
Semantics. When you use a weapon to kill an enemy, should the blacksmith gain experience?
Xykon can be killed, with or without the plot requiring him to be. That doesn't mean people like Roy can jump on his undead dragon and expect to be more than an annoyance, but if he couldn't be killed at all the story would have a rather expected ending.
Maryring
2010-11-21, 07:22 AM
Hum... as far as I got it, the Big Issue of the entire story here is that Xykon isn't easy to kill. Actually, this question is the one that will determine if the story is over or not.
In addition to Kish: Soon, Super Sayan Vaarsuvius, Dorukan, Lirian and a bunch of others also tried that. Note ALL mentioned chars have been in their epic levels and all failed (some even utterly and totally).
Tarquin is likely very powerful (possibly epic?) but Xykon is a very hard target.
Yes, but everyone except Soon fought so poorly, I find it a miracle that they got to epic levels in the first place. Heck, V admits that he fought poorly too, and he was nowhere near as incompetent as the fights we saw in SoD.
Da'Shain
2010-11-21, 10:46 AM
I seriously doubt that Tarquin and co. are anything much beyond a level or two over the OotS at this point. Remember, in this campaign world, the OotS are massively special in having made it to this high a level. Nothing about Tarquin's company seems particularly epic (aside from an epic con, but that's epic in the non-levels sense), and the only indication we have that they are even on the OotS' level is Malack's ability to cast high-level spells.
That said, Tarquin might find Xykon a valuable ally, and Xykon for his part might find Tarquin refreshing as an example of Lawful Evil that isn't a killjoy for him. Of course both will work to screw each other over, but at this point we have no idea if they know their goals are mutually exclusive yet.
If it came down to blows, though, I really don't think there's much chance for Tarquin. As I said, he probably ain't epic, he's not a ghost, and as far as we know he has no particular anti-undead capabilities. The rest of his party would make more of a difference, but as Xykon's proved over the course of the story he's more than canny enough to defeat such a party, even if you call his earlier opponents victims of Plot-Induced Stupidity. Tarquin's party will be subject to the same plot, in that case.
Darth Hunterix
2010-11-21, 01:17 PM
All Tarquin has to do is to make the Empress "accidentally" sit on Xykon. He would be crushed in suprise round, no question about it. And then she would eat his phylactery. And Redcloack. And Tsukiko. And then she would have a nice cup of tea with MitD.
Red XIV
2010-11-21, 02:48 PM
So did Soon, supposedly. He was there when the found the rift. And yet...
Soon would presumably have recognized the place if he saw it again. That doesn't mean he remembered its coordinates, or how to get there. Which obviously he didn't.
Damaris
2010-11-21, 02:51 PM
All Tarquin has to do is to make the Empress "accidentally" sit on Xykon. He would be crushed in suprise round, no question about it. And then she would eat his phylactery. And Redcloack. And Tsukiko. And then she would have a nice cup of tea with MitD.
I want this to happen. XD
silvadel
2010-11-21, 03:14 PM
Tarquin would peel off Xykon's support first -- Tsukiko would be approached by one faction. Redcloak by another. Give Redcloak all he wants (a RELIABLE epic mage, protection from Xykon, reasonable chance of success at getting to the gate,Tsukiko's head on a platter) and he might be willing to shift allegiance -- key here is to approach Redcloak with a non-human.
Darth Hunterix
2010-11-21, 05:23 PM
Tarquin would peel off Xykon's support first -- Tsukiko would be approached by one faction. Redcloak by another. Give Redcloak all he wants (a RELIABLE epic mage, protection from Xykon, reasonable chance of success at getting to the gate,Tsukiko's head on a platter) and he might be willing to shift allegiance -- key here is to approach Redcloak with a non-human.
Like... I don't know... Have the catgirl seduce him? Have Malack add Reddie to Macebook? I haven't seen many gobbos on the Western Continent, you know... Oh well, Tarquin can always try to play Gobbotopia card, like offer a very attractive trade agreement or his fleet at Gobbotopia's harbor. Reddie's choice. That have a chance to work...
Ron Miel
2010-11-21, 08:46 PM
Xykon has successfully decoded two Gate locations from the diary. If Serini was going to fake the location of Girard's Gate, why wouldn't she have faked the locations of every Gate? She obviously thought her diary was safe, or that the code was unbreakable, or she wouldn't have written them down in the first place. So there's very little likelihood that Xykon doesn't have the real location.
Just a thought, but it was Girard who noted the position of the gate, and then gave a false location to Soon. It's quite likely that he gave a false location to the rest of the party too. So maybe Sereni's diary will only lead Xykon to the fake site with the exploding message.
BridgeCity
2010-11-22, 12:07 AM
Just a thought, but it was Girard who noted the position of the gate, and then gave a false location to Soon. It's quite likely that he gave a false location to the rest of the party too. So maybe Sereni's diary will only lead Xykon to the fake site with the exploding message.
Girard, in his illusion thing in the desert, states that Sereni has the correct location co-ordinates.
He could have been lying, but I doubt it.
Ron Miel
2010-11-22, 12:27 AM
I forgot about that.:smallredface:
Tarquin has no resources that Xykon doesn't have. But Xykon may have plenty more than Tarquin. Xykon has a unified and battle hardened massive army and controls one of the largest cities on the continent. He isn't split up among three separate factions that are working against each other constantly in order to keep himself propped up. His city is now being recognized by other nations as a legitimate power center. Xykon is an epic level spell caster with plenty of time on his hands, and he has the spoils of at Azure City plus Dorukan plus who knows what else - we have no idea what sort of magical devices he has at his disposal. Xykon also has on his side presumably the most powerful cleric in the world, a cleric who isn't merely connected to a deity but who as bearer of the Crimson Mantle is the closest thing we have seen to being the literal personification of a deity. Xykon also has MITD, and we don't know what all that means, but it means a lot whatever it is.
All of this overlooks the obvious:
Xykon has been from the beginning THE big bad of the strip, and he will be the force to be reckoned with at the end. Tarquin will end up being nothing more than a plot device for Elan to rescue Ian for Haley before the Order moves on to the gate. If anything, this will simply be a catalyst for Nale to return somehow, to throw a wrench in the works before the final confrontation with Xykon.
Felixc-91
2010-11-22, 02:38 AM
Hum... as far as I got it, the Big Issue of the entire story here is that Xykon isn't easy to kill. Actually, this question is the one that will determine if the story is over or not.
In addition to Kish: Soon, Super Sayan Vaarsuvius, Dorukan, Lirian and a bunch of others also tried that. Note ALL mentioned chars have been in their epic levels and all failed (some even utterly and totally).
Tarquin is likely very powerful (possibly epic?) but Xykon is a very hard target.wrong, Soon did not fail. Miko's intervention was the only thing that saved X.
Felixc-91
2010-11-22, 03:03 AM
Yes, but everyone except Soon fought so poorly, I find it a miracle that they got to epic levels in the first place. Heck, V admits that he fought poorly too, and he was nowhere near as incompetent as the fights we saw in SoD. about SoD. Liran did just fine at first, hell she did better than fine. and any defence can be countered when you have an indepth understanding of how it works and months to prepare. although that thing with the dragon was really stupid... thats true. on the subject of Dorukan, sure he wasted his surprise round, or whatever he cast wasn't enough, but over all he... well he shifted back and forth between smart and stupid. if you note on one page it is implyed that X only survived because the book was in black and white. also there was a lot of counter spelling in that battle, hard to know if he cast smart when we don't get to know what half the spells were.
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