Armor, why?

[shadow_archmagi]

So anyway right now I'm building an 8th level character and I looked at it and thought

"Okay, so, I can wear medium armor. Breastplate. Bam. Enchant if for... my budget says 3. So thats 5+3+2 for my dex. +10 to AC. Add that to base and I've got an AC of 20."

Now, let's check a few monsters to see how good 20 AC actually is.

Shield Gaurdian is going on +16
Giant Octopus is going on +10
Yrthrak is +15
Rok is +21?
Noble Salamander is +21 +18 +13 and a +21 tail attack?

So, apparently, 20 AC isn't actually going to prevent very many attacks. This leaves two possiblities:

1. Wearing armor is a waste of money.

2. I'm doing something wrong here. My AC should be much higher.

[Gavinfoxx]

You want Mithril Full Plate, for one thing. For another, if you want to not be hit, you need to start adding spell buffs to it. For another, you need defenses other than "just add an armor bonus to AC" to prevent you from being hit.

You just say 8th level character, without telling us anything else. What spells or superpowers does your 8th level character have to help his resilience or prevent him from being hit?

Also, it's generally realized that, unless you invest in getting AC REALLY high, it is there to prevent monsters from full attacking for *full*.

[Eloel]

1. Wearing armor is a waste of money.

2. I'm doing something wrong here. My AC should be much higher.

AC is all or nothing. If you're not heavily investing in it, 1 is true. If you DO want relevant AC, 2 is true.

[An Enemy Spy]

Yeah. I've never really got the point of AC after the first few levels when you're dealing with things that have +20 attack

[FishAreWet]

Prevents you from getting Full Round Attacked and/or Power Attack. Someone with a +10 only has a 50% chance to hit your 20AC but has a 95% chance to hit a 10AC. It's worth it.

[bloodtide]

Amror makes it harder for things to hit you.

Your example monsters look a bit odd. Sure, some monsters have a high BaB....but lots don't.

Say you get attacked by a Minotaur. They are only attacking with +9. So an AC of 20 is plenty vs. +9. A troll is only +10, and the average salamander is only +11.

An AC of 20 is more then enough to block level 8 balanced encounters. You won't be fighting a room full of Noble Salamanders, riding giant octopuses that each have a Sheild Guardian. You will just fight a room full of average salamanders.

[Doug Lampert]

So anyway right now I'm building an 8th level character and I looked at it and thought

"Okay, so, I can wear medium armor. Breastplate. Bam. Enchant if for... my budget says 3. So thats 5+3+2 for my dex. +10 to AC. Add that to base and I've got an AC of 20."
...
So, apparently, 20 AC isn't actually going to prevent very many attacks. This leaves two possiblities:

1. Wearing armor is a waste of money.

2. I'm doing something wrong here. My AC should be much higher.

It should be higher.
For less money than +3 enhancement you could have gone +2 from armor and a pair of +1 items from defection and natural armor. Gaining 1 AC, 1 touch AC, and 1000 GP.

You could drop the bonus one more and get +1 Mithral Full Plate, saving EVEN MORE money and getting a 2 more AC.

There are something like a dozen different bonuses to AC available.
(Armor, enhancement to armor, shield, enhancement to shield, natural armor, enhancement to natural armor, dex, dodge, deflection, luck, sacred, and profane.)

You need to stack bonuses from different sources. +3 armor means you paid 5000 GP for a +1 to AC, it means you paid 3000 GP for another +1 to AC.

A dex item is +1 to AC for only 4000 and gives LOTS of other advantages
An animated shield +1 is +3 to AC for slightly more than 3000 GP per +
Deflection is +1 for 2000 and is just plain better than enhancing your armor bonus.
Natural armor enhancement is +1 for 2000 and at level 10 you should be able to get actual natural armor out the wazzo from the polymoph line of spells.

You can also get some of the others, potions and the like since you can't afford most of them (yet).

DougL

[Siberian Soviet]

it has come to my attention recently that AC is indeed primarily useless. At low levels it seems that AC is almost a necessity as fighters and rogues need it to survive most encounters and magic casters being coupled with low AC low health and very few pottent spells appear little more then useless. Then it becomes apparent that the exponential power increase of the wizard will deem AC pointless. Unless a character has an incredible AC they will take most hits at higher levels of course I've always believed that most classes focused around melee combat were just meat shields put in place to keep the squishier casters safe.

[Starbuck_II]

So anyway right now I'm building an 8th level character and I looked at it and thought

"Okay, so, I can wear medium armor. Breastplate. Bam. Enchant if for... my budget says 3. So thats 5+3+2 for my dex. +10 to AC. Add that to base and I've got an AC of 20."

Now, let's check a few monsters to see how good 20 AC actually is.

Shield Gaurdian is going on +16
Giant Octopus is going on +10
Yrthrak is +15
Rok is +21?
Noble Salamander is +21 +18 +13 and a +21 tail attack?

So, apparently, 20 AC isn't actually going to prevent very many attacks. This leaves two possiblities:

1. Wearing armor is a waste of money.

2. I'm doing something wrong here. My AC should be much higher.

You are supposed to wear other bonuses beyond Armor (examples).
Currently, you have a 75 % hit of you on average. You will be missed 25% of the time.
So you need to add a few goodies:


1) Deflection (Rings)
2) insight (ioun stone)
3) Natural armor (amulet/belt)
4) dodge (haste, feat, etc)

So your 20 AC becomes: 25.
8 Armor
10 Base
2 Dex
2 Deflect
1 Insight
2 Natural

According to my calculation* adding these:
You should be 15 +1.5 Level= 27 is base AC for 60% miss/40% hit you.
You will be = 50% chance if hitting you on average.

So you aren't too bad. You can't tank easily relying on Armor bonuses (you'll need miss chances). But you'll be okay.

You need 32 AC (20+ 1.5 lv) to tank (25-30% chance to be hit on average for level).

*=% hit/miss based on calculations that are based on average chance to hit across all creatures of the CR =Lv.
Sometimes these will be off as CR isn't done well, but usually this will be right on.

[Gavinfoxx]

Again, what superpowers does your character have? We need to know, many of those are the best way to get AC to the point where you won't get hit on a limited budget...

[BenTheJester]

You want Mithril Full Plate, for one thing. For another, if you want to not be hit, you need to start adding spell buffs to it. For another, you need defenses other than "just add an armor bonus to AC" to prevent you from being hit.

You just say 8th level character, without telling us anything else. What spells or superpowers does your 8th level character have to help his resilience or prevent him from being hit?

Also, it's generally realized that, unless you invest in getting AC REALLY high, it is there to prevent monsters from full attacking for *full*.

The 3 AC difference between a mithral full plate and a mithral breastplate is small, but the move speed difference is important.

[Psyren]

Miss chance > AC. This goes double for AC that can't stop touch attacks.

[sonofzeal]

At 8th level, AC 20 is piddly, and Breastplate is usually a bad option anyway. Fullplate or Chain Shirt are usually better, depending on your dex. Mithral Fullplate, for those with the gold.

Offence comes from your classes. Defense comes from your gear. I usually spend at least 50% of my WBL on defences of various kinds. So that's 13,500 to throw around.


+2 Cloak of Resistance: 4000. So that's 9,500 for AC, or about what you spent on your armor, so that's good.

Fullplate is 1500, gets you a +9 starting base. Let's do that, and hope we can upgrade it to Mithral later.

Now, a newbie mistake might be to do +2 on the armor and +2 on the shield. You're actually better off sticking with +1's, and then getting a Ring of Protection and an Amulet of Natural Armor.

+1 Fullplate: 2650
+1 Heavy Shield: 1170 <- if you're using a twohanded, go with a buckler.
+1 Ring of Prot: 2000
+1 Amulet of NA: 2000

We've still got 1680 left. We can either use that for basic adventuring gear, or upgrade our +1 fullplate to a +2 if we have leftover from our other money. We could also invest in Potions of Reduce Person (+2 to AC and other benefits, but reduced offence), and there's other options as well.


Total AC: +9 armor, +1 dex, +3 shield, +1 def, +1 NA = 25. Costs less than yours, and gives much more decent protection. You'll still be hit a lot, but most enemies should be missing at least some of the time. If you're willing to invest 66% gold or so into defence, not unreasonable for a Tank, upgrade those +1 armor and shield to +2's, and you're at 27 and looking not too shabby.

Also - Cover is a +4 bonus to AC. Being Prone gives you a +4 AC vs Ranged (but -4 vs melee). Aid Another gives a +2, and hirelings or mounts can do that for you. Fighting Defensively is a +2 or +3, depending on your Tumble. And all of those are free, and stack with each other. I once won a colosseum match because I dodged the other person's massive damage ranged touch attack power by taking a ready action to dive prone behind cover. He hadn't counted on a sudden +8 to my Touch AC, and that swing the match.

[shadow_archmagi]

Ah, thanks for straightening me out. I've now got it up to 24, and I've also remembered that not every encounter will be a single CR-8 monster.

Also I was never meant to be the tank anyway. (I'm playing a support artificer)

[Crow]

POWER ATTACK.

Iteratives are less likely to hit, and the DM can't power attack you into oblivion. "All or Nothing" is a gross simplification of the AC debate.

[Gavinfoxx]

Oh heck you're an ARTIFICER?? And a *support one*, a *buffificer* too??

You can get armor way, way, way up!!

First, make sure your armor is a +1, and use Infusions and Magic Vestment. Make sure you have armor spikes, even nonproficient. Use some infusions for greater magic weapon and defending on the armor spikes, and get that to be for AC. Get some eternal wands, schema or Drow House Insignia, of spells that increase AC and lasts at least 10 minutes a level. Alter Self is very good at this, that'll get you about 8 natural armor right there, as is Barkskin, Dragonskin, Golden Dragonmail, Halo of Sand, Luminous Armor, Magic Circle Against Evil, Mark of Air, Segojan's Armor, Silver Dragonmail, Spiderskin, Scintillating Scales...

http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/SearchList.php

With most of these you don't really need to get high quality REAL armor, if you don't want to... half of these make armor and last an hour per level... there's also, of course, just Greater Magic Armor if you want...

Also this is ignoring things that give you a MISS CHANCE. Invest in things that give enemies a miss chance to hit you! There's lots of spells to do this, too... maybe make those spikes +1 defending smoking or something. Remember, if you have 20% miss chance from three sources, that's 3 chances they have, at 20% to miss you, EVEN IF they roll a confirmed crit!

[sonofzeal]

Ah, thanks for straightening me out. I've now got it up to 24, and I've also remembered that not every encounter will be a single CR-8 monster.

Also I was never meant to be the tank anyway. (I'm playing a support artificer)
Oh, if you're an Artificer, you should have tones of options!

Crafting your own Mithral Fullplate is only 3500 gp, since nonmagicals require only 1/3 gold and no xp! Less, if you can creatively acquire the Mithral itself somewhere - and you should be putting every effort into getting discounted craft supplies. Even without the Mithral, you don't suffer Arcane Spell Failure, so unless you're making a lot of attack roles you might not mind the non-proficiency penalty.

And get yourself a Wand of Mirror Image, it'll save your life better than most armors.

[Eldariel]

Spellcasters help too. Imagine a Cleric casting Magic Vestment on your armor and Animated Shield; if he happens to be able to Chain it somehow, that's +2 AC each (or well, +1 due to the minimum prerequisite for Animated). Druid casting Barkskin is +3-4 AC for over an hour, way more than an Amulet would give you on this level. Shield of Faith is the same. If you can somehow cast Alter Self, that's +6 AC that stacks with everything for 10 min/level; base-Wizard Gishes for example enjoy tremendous AC thanks to this. Same with Wildshaping; inherent Natural Armor stacks with all other sources.

Also, don't forget combat modifiers. Power Attack & co. as mentioned. Also, various degrees of Cover are pretty common, as is e.g. being Prone (due to magic, Tripping, Bull Rushing or just events). All of those can pose notable penalties on attacking. And yeah, iteratives too. It's true that yes, you really need to focus on AC for it to be worthwhile and yes, it's generally not worth it. If, however, you have spellcasters buffing you, it suddenly becomes very worth it as they can easily provide you with many point increases.


Cases where I bother with AC:
- I'm playing a class with inherent bonuses in that regard, like Swordsage or Dervish.
- I'm playing, or playing with a party with competent spellcasters.
- I get way over WBL wealth, or don't need non-numeric things from wealth that much due to other ways to fly, tele, be invisible and so on.

[Soren Hero]

Miss chance > AC. This goes double for AC that can't stop touch attacks.

+1 to the above

[2 cents]
IMHO, ac is great at lower levels, as magic isn't as widely available. but once the wizard can cast mirror image reliably as a buff (lets say level 6), that's a minimum of 3 images (1d4 + 1/3 caster levels) to a maximum of 6 images, which grants 75% to 86% miss chance for 6 minutes (or until discharged). If the attack targets one of the images, and it hits, the image disappears, you take 0 damage, and your miss chance lowers. A wand of mirror image costs 4,500 gp, which is considerably less than a +3 breastplate.
[/2 cents]

[Calmar]

You want Mithril Full Plate, for one thing. For another, if you want to not be hit, you need to start adding spell buffs to it. For another, you need defenses other than "just add an armor bonus to AC" to prevent you from being hit.

You count on having this very rare metal easily available? :smallconfused:

[Doug Lampert]

You count on having this very rare metal easily available? :smallconfused:

BtB of course you can. You go into any village, they have an amount of each good available set by the rules. We know what a pound of Mithral costs, so we know how much they have. A town of 900 people has 720 POUNDS of Mithral available for sale.

And at level 10 you have both teleport and plane shift available.

So unless your world has NO towns or villages and only a very very very small number of hamlets, then BtB you absolutely can get plently of mithral for your armor if you have the money.

In any case, I've NEVER understood the DM attitude that I can give people plenty of cash and then inexplicably not have what they want to buy available. If you don't want people to have money DON'T give it to them, otherwise, just accept that with teleport and plane shift and other magic available they SHOULD be able to find a reasonable market and let them buy stuff.

Rediculous hoops for stuff that's available BtB and which the characters have the money for says to me that you want to nerf the item or spell, not the purchase, if it's that good then EVEN more people will want it and it will therefore be available in all large markets.

DougL

[Runestar]

My goliath barb pretty much dumped AC. Rage, shock trooper, dex penalty, charging (and later, robilar's gambit), I relied on lots of hp, temp hp and quickly finishing off my foes to compensate. :smallbiggrin:

[Gavinfoxx]

You count on having this very rare metal easily available? :smallconfused:

...Yes? It's not all that rare, not by the book, nor is it all that expensive...

[Calmar]

In any case, I've NEVER understood the DM attitude that I can give people plenty of cash and then inexplicably not have what they want to buy available. If you don't want people to have money DON'T give it to them, otherwise, just accept that with teleport and plane shift and other magic available they SHOULD be able to find a reasonable market and let them buy stuff.

Rediculous hoops for stuff that's available BtB and which the characters have the money for says to me that you want to nerf the item or spell, not the purchase, if it's that good then EVEN more people will want it and it will therefore be available in all large markets.

DougL

Suppose mithral is like paintings by DaVinci. Even if you're a billionaire and could afford a huge amount, there just might be only a limited number available. And maybe those possessing the stuff don't even want to part with it.

[hamishspence]

BtB of course you can. You go into any village, they have an amount of each good available set by the rules. We know what a pound of Mithral costs, so we know how much they have. A town of 900 people has 720 POUNDS of Mithral available for sale.


At 500 gp per pound? (the price in the back of DMG).

A 900 person village can only sell items of 200 GP or more.

A 901 person small town could sell items of 800 gp or more, true.

And have 90x400gp worth of total ready cash, in the whole town (36000 gp)

It does say you might be able to buy the same amount of a particular good (36000 gp of mithril)

But a 500gp per pound, that's 72 pounds of mithril.

And that would be assuming mithril's as easy to get as swords are in the DMG example. It might not be- maybe in this world, only at Mithril Hall (or nearest equivalent) will you find an amount equal to the total ready cash in a community of that size.

[Eldariel]

Oh yeah, armor is always nice against lower level opponents.

[Runestar]

Mithril has a gold cost. I assume that this implies it is as readily available as you are willing and able to pay for the cost of acquiring say, a suit of mithral fullplate.

IMO, in downtime, players just sell off their excess loot and upgrade their gear before heading down into the next dungeon. I suppose you could rp the process of actually acquiring rare gear, but I feel you should not have to if the players aren't interested.

[Ernir]

AC becomes much more relevant if you think of it less as being something to prevent you from being hit, and more as something to prevent you from being Power Attacked for the enemies' full BAB.

[Halae]

AC becomes much more relevant if you think of it less as being something to prevent you from being hit, and more as something to prevent you from being Power Attacked for the enemies' full BAB.

I second this.

[sonofzeal]

AC is also far more relevant against NPCs than against monsters. If you're in a humanoid-heavy campaign, you can scale your AC with their attacks fairly easily.

[Tengu_temp]

Suppose mithral is like paintings by DaVinci. Even if you're a billionaire and could afford a huge amount, there just might be only a limited number available. And maybe those possessing the stuff don't even want to part with it.

I'd say that a +1 mithral armor is surely easier to find than a +3 armor.

[Runestar]

This is dnd economics, not real life market forces at work.

The whole point is that so long as I have the gold, I should be able to procure whatever what I want, in one way or another.

[faceroll]

Go with mithral mechanus gear. 10 AC, +2 max dex. Looks awesome.

[Runestar]

This is also true for quite a number of foes (typically advanced creatures), especially at higher lvs. For example, when I restatted an advanced dire bear for bastion of lost souls, it had 500+ hp, attack of +45 (hitting my fighter on a 2+), could deal 100+ damage on a full attack, but an AC of only 20. At cr18. :smallannoyed:

As pointed out, seems past a certain point, the only real use of AC is to limit how much the enemy can PA for, since their attack rolls seem high enough to hit you on a 2+. :smallconfused:

[Salbazier]

This is dnd economics, not real life market forces at work.

The whole point is that so long as I have the gold, I should be able to procure whatever what I want, in one way or another.

Provided the setting and DM allows it.

[AstralFire]

Provided the setting and DM allows it.

You're being utterly arbitrary if you don't explicitly state in advance that, for whatever reason, mithral is harder to get than usual. As a concept, it is extremely common and its uses are many.

[Crow]

You're being utterly arbitrary if you don't explicitly state in advance that, for whatever reason, mithral is harder to get than usual. As a concept, it is extremely common and its uses are many.

The listing in the DMG states that adamantine is found in "meteorites and the rarest veins in magical areas". Darkwood is a "rare magical wood". Mithral is a "very rare silvery, glistening metal"

So yeah, at least as far as the DMG is concerned, you're wrong.

[AstralFire]

The listing in the DMG states that adamantine is found in "meteorites and the rarest veins in magical areas". Darkwood is a "rare magical wood". Mithral is a "very rare silvery, glistening metal"

So yeah, at least as far as the DMG is concerned, you're wrong.

I didn't say the metals were common. I said the concept is common - so common that significantly increasing the price or reducing the availability without advance warning is unnecessarily arbitrary, much as removing other core gameplay elements would be. There's a world of difference between saying "oh yeah, there's no Kwalish's Apparatus in my world" and "oh yeah, by the way, there's no such thing as enhancement bonuses."

[ZeroNumerous]

Suppose mithral is like paintings by DaVinci. Even if you're a billionaire and could afford a huge amount, there just might be only a limited number available. And maybe those possessing the stuff don't even want to part with it.


The listing in the DMG states that adamantine is found in "meteorites and the rarest veins in magical areas". Darkwood is a "rare magical wood". Mithral is a "very rare silvery, glistening metal"

So yeah, at least as far as the DMG is concerned, you're wrong.


Provided the setting and DM allows it.

Plane Shift: Elemental Plane of Earth(Elementals could dig it up for you)
Plane Shift: Sigil(Someone will have it on sale, somewhere)
Plane Shift: Celestia(get someone to wish you some up)
Plane Shift: Elemental Plane of Air(Genies, see above)

What is rare to pathetic earthlings is mundane and worthless to the planes, and that means a 9th level party will easily have access to mithral, darkwood, adamantine, whatever other special materials they'd like that aren't specific to the prime material plane.

[Mercenary Pen]

Plane Shift: Elemental Plane of Earth(Elementals could dig it up for you)
Plane Shift: Sigil(Someone will have it on sale, somewhere)
Plane Shift: Celestia(get someone to wish you some up)
Plane Shift: Elemental Plane of Air(Genies, see above)

What is rare to pathetic earthlings is mundane and worthless to the planes, and that means a 9th level party will easily have access to mithral, darkwood, adamantine, whatever other special materials they'd like that aren't specific to the prime material plane.

DM bans Plane Shift- problem solved.

[Eloel]

DM bans Plane Shift- problem solved.

DM rules normal metal is as light as Mithral- problem solved.

[Vizzerdrix]

How's that solving a problem by making it harder to get something that should be more common than enchanted weapons? Honestly if a DM is getting bent out of shape over the existence of alternative materials then they should hang up their screen.

[Psyren]

What is rare to pathetic earthlings is mundane and worthless to the planes, and that means a 9th level party will easily have access to mithral, darkwood, adamantine, whatever other special materials they'd like that aren't specific to the prime material plane.

...Assuming said locales are accommodating to such mercantile interlopers.

The best they could hope for is in Celestia, where they get a stern talking-to from an Archon about the responsible use of magic and the slippery slope of materialism - a talking-to that they will quietly sit through if they're smart.

[AstralFire]

DM bans Plane Shift- problem solved.

Of course the DM can solve or cause any in-game problem with a wave of their little fingers. That does not mean they don't have something of a social responsibility to try and keep their judgments from being overly sudden and unexpected.

[FelixG]

DM bans Plane Shift- problem solved.

DM is a jerk, cause of problem.

Gate! or Candle of Invocation!

DM averted :smallbiggrin:

[Zen Master]

I didn't say the metals were common. I said the concept is common - so common that significantly increasing the price or reducing the availability without advance warning is unnecessarily arbitrary, much as removing other core gameplay elements would be. There's a world of difference between saying "oh yeah, there's no Kwalish's Apparatus in my world" and "oh yeah, by the way, there's no such thing as enhancement bonuses."

I wonder - by what definition is 'the concept common'?

By your definition, certainly. But by comparison, I've played for 22 years soon, and I only ever had ONE character with mithril armor. So for me and the people I play with, it would be unnecessarily arbitrary to claim that anything with a gp price tag should be readily available if you invest the gold.

That said, these discussion never fail to spiral out of control catastrophically - so I will contribute nothing more.

[AstralFire]

I wonder - by what definition is 'the concept common'?

By your definition, certainly. But by comparison, I've played for 22 years soon, and I only ever had ONE character with mithril armor. So for me and the people I play with, it would be unnecessarily arbitrary to claim that anything with a gp price tag should be readily available if you invest the gold.

That said, these discussion never fail to spiral out of control catastrophically - so I will contribute nothing more.

I would say the fact that mithril shows up very regularly in statblocks of NPCs, is referenced not infrequently lore-wise in most of the official settings, and is a quickly applied template which appears in the core of the official rules and costs very little against a +3 anything makes it a 'common concept.'

It is a very major part of the system's design, and you're talking about a system where cost is an objective value which features into spell components.

[Eloel]

This

I wonder - by what definition is 'the concept common'?
And this


That said, these discussion never fail to spiral out of control catastrophically - so I will contribute nothing more.

Do not belong in the same post.

Anything with a defined cost should be within reach of players. The rules, iirc, define town markets by the price of maximum item sold in them. (Like, 'upto 5000gp in this village).

Think of it like gold in modern world. It's damn expensive, but if you pay enough (the listed price), you can have it in pretty much any shape.

[Z3ro]

This

And this


Do not belong in the same post.

Anything with a defined cost should be within reach of players. The rules, iirc, define town markets by the price of maximum item sold in them. (Like, 'upto 5000gp in this village).

Think of it like gold in modern world. It's damn expensive, but if you pay enough (the listed price), you can have it in pretty much any shape.

I know this attitude is common and often assumed, by I personally hate it. The fact that you would be able to walk into any town and, as long as they have the gold limit, by any item always turned me off. My groups play by a much more "you can buy what they have" type of attitude.

I'm not saying you're wrong. The game does (for the most part) assume you can buy whatever you want. Just saying I never liked it.

[AstralFire]

I actually dislike it as well, and didn't use it much when I played D&D 3. ...But I warn my players up front.

[Runestar]

Provided the setting and DM allows it.

I was the DM in my group for a while, and we never saw an issue with allowing players to just buy whatever they want, so long as they could afford it.

The game pretty much assumes that PCs will be appropriately equipped for their lv, which either requires that you throw them the eq they want in treasure hoards, or you let them buy those items in towns. I see little point in shortchanging my players in this aspect, since it is just not fun for anyone.

I use a combination of both, since even the most desired gear in dungeons eventually becomes outdated and in need of upgrading. :smallsmile:

[Thurbane]

POWER ATTACK.

Iteratives are less likely to hit, and the DM can't power attack you into oblivion. "All or Nothing" is a gross simplification of the AC debate.
This.

Yes, at higher levels, AC becomes increasingly less relevant, but against iteratives, and definitely Power Attack, it's still good to have some armor.

...also, many people assume you will only ever fight monsters that are exactly CR appropraite. Sometime, just sometimes, you can find yourself in a fight with a horde of mooks. Now true, they do die very easily, but a bunch of weak attacks can eventually start to add up.

[Endarire]

L8 is at a point where AC matters -far- less than saves.

A reasonably buffed Wizard can have 25+ AC at level 3. (26 = 10 + 2 DEX + 4 mage armor + 4 shield + 6 alter self.) You need 30-40 AC at this level for it to significantly matter.

[Eldariel]

DM bans Plane Shift- problem solved.

How does that solve anything? What, are you saying a DM should start banning iconic and integral abilities just to get the game to work? No, my friend; I like playing games with rich cosmologies mid level parties are free to explore, and any solution that makes that undoable is not much of a solution.

[Psyx]

Armour is there to stop you sucking down less iterative attacks, reducing the amount of power attack the GM throws at you, and to bolt special armour effects on. And it gives you something to tie an armour crystal onto.

[Runestar]

Not all monsters use iterative attacks. Some have loads of natural attacks, and with improved multiattack, get to attack with all of them at its best bab. AC isn't as useful in this context. :smallmad:

[Psyx]

:smallconfused:

AC isn't as useful in the context of falling damage or AOEs, either... but that doesn't make the conjecture less valid...

[Lans]

Not all monsters use iterative attacks. Some have loads of natural attacks, and with improved multiattack, get to attack with all of them at its best bab. AC isn't as useful in this context. :smallmad:
Still keeps them from power attacking you into paste. Alot of times things with a lot of attacks have lower attack bonuses so its still a little bit useful. Though looking at cloak of displacement might be a better choice.

[Seatbelt]

I wonder - by what definition is 'the concept common'?

By your definition, certainly. But by comparison, I've played for 22 years soon, and I only ever had ONE character with mithril armor. So for me and the people I play with, it would be unnecessarily arbitrary to claim that anything with a gp price tag should be readily available if you invest the gold.

That said, these discussion never fail to spiral out of control catastrophically - so I will contribute nothing more.

I've never played a mid level melee fighter without mithril armor. So yay we cancel each other out.

[Eloel]

I've never played a mid level melee fighter without mithril armor. So yay we cancel each other out.

And I never played any fighter without Adamantine armor. Does that mean I've been 'wrong'?
Actually, I never played a fighter. But, meh.

[true_shinken]

Actually, I never played a fighter.
That kind of defeats your whole point.

[The Big Dice]

I've never played a mid level melee fighter without mithril armor. So yay we cancel each other out.

Technically, you shouldn't be playing anything in D&D with mithril. MIthril is a MIddle Earth thing, and the Tolkien Estate tend to be very vigorous about protecting their copyrights.

Mithral (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#mithral), on the other hand, is the D&D way of avoiding copyright infringement. It's also described as "very rare" so any Gm who wants to restrict access to it is well within his rights to do so.

[Eloel]

That kind of defeats your whole point.

Except Fighter is not the only class that can wear armor. All my Warblades/Clerics/whatever else that can wear medium armor effectively wore Mithral Full Plate. Because when people can conjure up Efreeti and Genies, finding Mithral shouldn't even be close to being hard.


Mithral, on the other hand, is the D&D way of avoiding copyright infringement. It's also described as "very rare" so any Gm who wants to restrict access to it is well within his rights to do so.

And 10th level Wizards with Craft Magic Arms and Armor are supposed to be aplenty? You know, everyone and their cats can have +5 Weapons, but Mithral is hard to find?

[Crow]

It's the DM's call. If you don't like it, find another game. If the DM has magic mart in their game, then yes, mithral shouldn't be a problem to find. If your DM doesn't like magic mart, though, he is well within his rights to say that it is hard to find.

[AstralFire]

It's the DM's call. If you don't like it, find another game. If the DM has magic mart in their game, then yes, mithral shouldn't be a problem to find. If your DM doesn't like magic mart, though, he is well within his rights to say that it is hard to find.

All of which is fine; none of which absolves the DM of the responsibility of informing the players up front about that sort of thing, as it is a major deviation from game-as-presented.

[Eloel]

It's the DM's call. If you don't like it, find another game. If the DM has magic mart in their game, then yes, mithral shouldn't be a problem to find. If your DM doesn't like magic mart, though, he is well within his rights to say that it is hard to find.

The same DM could rule that there are no scrolls being sold anywhere. That is a blatant nerf on Wizards, and is nowhere near what is adviced by the book. Still, DM always has the last say, but he'd better say it upfront or he'll end up with alot of angry players.

[Darrin]

Go with mithral mechanus gear. 10 AC, +2 max dex. Looks awesome.

Darkleaf Full Plate is cheaper (+3000 GP for heavy armor instead of +9000 GP). The 6000 GP you save can buy you another +6 AC (Heavy Shield +1, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1).

The OP mentioned his budget could afford +3 armor: Ok, so call that 9350 GP.

Darkleaf Full Plate +1, 5650 GP, AB +9, Max Dex +2 for Total AC +11.
Heavy Wooden Shield +1, 1157 GP, SB +3 (shield bonus), Total AC +14
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (NA enhancement), 2000 GP, Total AC +15

Total: 9407 GP (went a little over)

If your amulet slot is open, take the Amulet of Natural Armor over the Ring of Protection, since deflection bonuses are more common with spells (shield, shield of faith).

Add a wand chamber (100 GP, Dungeonscape p. 34) to both your shield and primary weapon. Buy a wand of wings of cover (4500 GP, Races of the Dragon p. 119) as soon as you can afford it and maybe get by with a wand of shield/shield of faith until then.

Some other fairly affordable armor enhancements:

Burnoose of 1000 Thorns (3000 GP, MIC p. 83). +1 NA enhancement, if the amulet slot isn't available.

Ioun Stone (5000 GP, DMG). +1 insight bonus to AC.

Ghost Shroud (5000 GP, MIC p. 104). +1 deflection bonus and the ghost touch property for all your melee attacks, body slot item.

Crimson Dragonhide Bracers (5000 GP, MIC p. 90). +1 NA enhancement plus fire resistance 5.

Belt of Priestly Might (6000 GP, MIC p. 74). +1 NA enhancement plus Gauntlets of Ogre Power for the belt slot.

Defending Armor/Netcutter Spikes +1 (8350/8500 GP, DMG or Races of the Wild). Shift your +1 enhancement bonus to AC as a free action. There's a lot of contentious debate over whether you can buy a bunch of these and stack them together... but if you don't try to abuse this, you should be okay.

Ring of Force Shield (8500 GP, DMG). Look ma! +2 shield bonus, no hands!

Animated Shield (9157 GP, DMG). Similar to the Ring of Force Shield, but you get another +1 enhancement bonus, and it doesn't take up a ring slot.


Another somewhat low-cost item would be a graft that provides a natural armor bonus (rather than an enhancement to natural armor). There are several different types of grafts that offer a natural armor bonus (beholder plated skin, fiendish skin, undead bonemail, yuan-ti scaly skin, draconic gleaming scales, silthilar chitin plating), but they generally cost (bonus squared) x 4000 GP. The cheapest is silthilar plating, where NA +1 can be purchased for 4000 GP.

However, I think we're in Eberron (artificer?), so there are some cheaper elemental or plant grafts available, such as Stony Plating and Treebark Carapace. Stony Plating (2800 GP, Magic of Eberron p. 133) is the cheapest. We can stack an Amulet of Natural Armor +1 on top of that for another 2000 GP. Ring of Protection +1 for another 2000 GP. That's another +3 AC bonus on top of your armor/shield bonuses for only 6800 GP.

There's an alternative to the 4000 GP Amulet of NA + Ring of Protection combo in the Explorer's Handbook on p. 157: Tunic of Thurrinak. It's a little more expensive (5000 GP instead of 4000 GP), but provides a +1 NA enhancement and a +1 deflection bonus on the same body-slot item, which frees up your amulet and ring slots for something else.

[The Big Dice]

All of which is fine; none of which absolves the DM of the responsibility of informing the players up front about that sort of thing, as it is a major deviation from game-as-presented.

It's no deviation at all. The game as presented says the material is rare. End of story. This isn't about the game as presented, it's about players demanding things and expecting immediate gratification.

Should a Ranger be able to take a wolf as an Animal Companion? What about when the Ranger reaches a level he can take an Animal Companion but the campaign is in a desert and will be for several levels?

[Eloel]

It's no deviation at all. The game as presented says the material is rare. End of story. This isn't about the game as presented, it's about players demanding things and expecting immediate gratification.


All sources say gold is a rare metal. I've not seen, once, a game without any gold. Thus, mithral can be bought whenever a player wants. There is no arguing that.

[Thurbane]

I don't know why this became a player entitlement/player vs. Dm thread.

Isn't it enough for the players to abide by the DMs decisions regarding his campaign world, and to expect than any 1/2 competant DM will explain significant changes to the players in advance?

I would have thought this was the normal scenario...:smalleek:

[AstralFire]

Because someone decided to object on the basis of Mithril to the advice given. Of all the "but you can only do it if the DM says you can!" objections I've seen on this board, I think this one is by far the most unusual.

[Fax Celestis]

It's no deviation at all. The game as presented says the material is rare. End of story. This isn't about the game as presented, it's about players demanding things and expecting immediate gratification.

It also gives a GP value for mithril. An item's price indicates its rarity, via the City Size to Available Merchandise mechanism. It is unfortunately not in the SRD (as it's wealth related; Pathfinder (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems.html)'s is close), but if a small city has an item price limit of 4000 gp, and your player is seeking a mithril chain shirt +1 (2100 gp), there is a 75% someone in the city is going to have it, and for at or around that price. Anything else is houseruling.


Nonmagical items and gear are generally available in a community of any size unless the item is particularly expensive, such as full plate, or made of an unusual material, such as an adamantine longsword. These items should follow the base value guidelines to determine their availability, subject to GM discretion.

[Crow]

"...subject to GM discretion." Long story short. Stop arguing and ask your DM.

[Fax Celestis]

"...subject to GM discretion." Long story short. Stop arguing and ask your DM.

Yeah, that too.