PDA

View Full Version : Piledriver - Optimizing the Dropper



Lev
2010-11-20, 11:19 PM
I was thinking over the power of mere carrying capacity and I thought, instead of building a thrower, why not just drop weight onto them as dropping as a free action.

How to do this?
-Be in the square above them
-This could mean having a unarmed reach that far

How to improve effectiveness?
-More carrying capacity means more weight

How can we improve carrying capacity?
-Strength
-Size
-Bag of Holding?

------------------------------------
OK, now lets get down to it.

This idea was sparked by anklets of translocation, you get a 10' jump which could mean you could step above someone in a square adjacent to yours carrying up to your max load.

Your max load can be QUITE heavy and easily over a ton, which means squish.



A few things to cover:

1) By RAW what are the rules for dropping things on people, falling objects, ect?
2) What's the best way to drop something on someone in combat?
3) What's the heaviest you can drop AKA how and what is the highest carry build?

Psyren
2010-11-20, 11:22 PM
For (1):

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects

Lev
2010-11-20, 11:36 PM
So what we can gather from that is that it needs to be 2 squares above them to work, and that the damage maxes out at 20d6.

This means 10D6 for a 2000lb dropped object.

So, does this mean that as a free action with no save you can deal 10D6 damage to a creature provided you drop a 2000lb object in their square from 10' up?

Psyren
2010-11-21, 01:13 AM
That section has funky wording. Personally, I read it thusly:

1) Damage from falling objects is a combination of the weight of the object and the distance it fell
2) The damage caused by the distance fallen caps at 20d6
3) The damage caused by the object's weight is uncapped

That interpretation lines it up better with physics:

1) Force = rate of change of momentum.
2) Momentum is a function of mass and velocity.
3) There is a cap on downward velocity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity) i.e. how fast objects can fall. There is therefore a cap on how much velocity an item can gain from falling after a certain distance. (See 3 above.)
4) There is no such cap on mass i.e. how heavy the object is. (See 4 above.)

At least, that's my take on it.

Lev
2010-11-21, 01:16 AM
Mm, yes, but what are the rules for avoiding a falling object? None?

Psyren
2010-11-21, 01:26 AM
Spells that produce falling objects (e.g. Cometfall) allow a reflex save. I assume the rules themselves don't because a reflex save wouldn't be applicable to extremely broad falling objects (e.g. a dungeon's collapsing ceiling.)

Come to think of it, Dungeonscape might have something on collapsing ceilings that might be relevant...

Runestar
2010-11-21, 01:34 AM
Play a large creature, and take deformity: obese to quadruple your weight.

Take swordsage for shadow jaunt. Teleport above your foe. Fall on them for heaps of damage. :smallbiggrin:

Lev
2010-11-21, 02:07 AM
Play a large creature, and take deformity: obese to quadruple your weight.

Take swordsage for shadow jaunt. Teleport above your foe. Fall on them for heaps of damage. :smallbiggrin:
I've got a better idea, instead of large played an exiled modron (basically a metal block) weighing 500lbs, then get your manifester level to 8 and use expansion with the 6pp double size increase, that's.....

32,000LBS

WIN.

faceroll
2010-11-21, 02:09 AM
Creatures get a reflex save (DC 15 maybe?) to avoid falling objects. In a book about battles I think.

ffone
2010-11-21, 05:50 AM
Since carrying capacity is exponential in strength (2x per +5) these things can do a lot of damage.

IIRC if you google 'hulking hurler / war hulk ' (PrCs) builds you'll find CO exercises in doing millions of damage from a maxed Str and a PrC ability to throw random things as weapons.

Lev
2010-11-21, 09:01 AM
Since carrying capacity is exponential in strength (2x per +5) these things can do a lot of damage.

IIRC if you google 'hulking hurler / war hulk ' (PrCs) builds you'll find CO exercises in doing millions of damage from a maxed Str and a PrC ability to throw random things as weapons.
Well, I'm thinking more along the lines of a attack strategy more than a 17 level path to get to what's advertised and one that doesn't eat all your feats and class levels in the doing of one thing.

I was more thinking along the lines of a 20D6 attack at level 4.



OK guys, how does Exiled Modron (500lbs with no weight from a height of 10') using expand then shadow jaunt to deal 20D6 damage sound? Even with the DC15 faceroll posted this seems to be very effective so far... worst case scenario you take 1D6 damage and force them to move into an adjacent 5' square as you land?

Darrin
2010-11-21, 10:06 AM
Mm, yes, but what are the rules for avoiding a falling object? None?

In Core/SRD, there are none.

Sinfire_Titan's 4500 lbs of stupid (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19863510/4500_lbs._of_Stupid?pg=1) thread explores this first, although the idea may have been reworked since then.

(I like to use a Feather Token: Swan Boat or a Folding Boat, assuming you can establish a weight for the boat, for 20d6 no-save falling object damage.)

Supposedly somewhere in Heroes of Battle there's a Ref save DC 15 to avoid falling objects, but I haven't found where this is mentioned... There's a short section on Aerial Bombardment but all it says is refer to the falling object rules in the DMG p. 303. Then it goes on to mention Arrow Volley attack,s and there's a Ref save DC 15 to take half damage from that, but that's not the same thing as avoiding one large/heavy falling object.

opticalshadow
2010-11-21, 03:22 PM
i like the idea and may have to try it sometime, we normally give a dc to avoid falling objects but in a core raw game imnot sure how it would work.

although something someone in an old party did was fun, had a flying animal compaion that lifted him in the air, he would wildshape into something big and heavy (which there are plenty of even at lower levels) and fall on them either killing them, or they would move, and now have to deal with this giant thing in front of them which (if the feats are taken) can still make attacks on the target. and if you can swing some bs in your dms face, you can maybe even convince him to let the fall act as a charge, and rake them or rend or gore or whatever it is your form does.

tenshiakodo
2010-11-21, 04:33 PM
Don't forget the Wall of Iron combo!

Wall of Iron + Item to make it into a small metal plate. Fly + Invisibility to get above your enemy, then drop the plate, cancelling the Item effect. If the DM asks for an attack roll, True Strike ftw.

I first heard about this trick in an issue of KOTD, and every time I mentioned it around my DM at the time, he looked ill. ^_^

Lev
2010-11-21, 08:42 PM
OK, well this is looking completely viable and a very dirty trick.

Thanks guys!



So, what's the easiest and most reliable way to get a size increase and 10' above their head? Pref. as a gnoll, exiled modron, warforged or anything else heavy with minimal LA.

Psyren
2010-11-21, 08:45 PM
Obese Warforged Nomad or Egoist?

WinWin
2010-11-21, 11:05 PM
Battle Jump from Unapproachable East allows an attack when falling or dropping on something. Double damage and is considered a charge. Obviously synergises with pouncing.

Roofwalker and Roof jumper are tactical feats from cityscape that allow controlled falls and bonus damage on falling attacks.

Movement bonuses correlate to jumping distace. Ring of Jumping or Boots of Striding and Springing would be good. I'm sure there are other items.

I though about using a concept like this in an IC competition, but did not have the time to make it work.

edit:

Tactics were...Jumping pounce as a move action. Improved grab. Jumping again (required high strength and decent grapping to move with target). Release target at apex of jump, then fall on them and pounce again.

Grants 2 full attacks and falling damage per turn. Requires a few skill tricks/spells/items to ensure maximum potential.

The dungeoncrasher ACF works well with this, providing the target can be knocked 'back' into the ground repeatedly.

term1nally s1ck
2010-11-22, 02:02 AM
Abrupt Jaunt ACF for a Conjurer is the easiest teleport, and can be done out of turn. Weight is boostable via Enlarge Person, holding a lot of equipment, and generally being big.

Lev
2010-11-22, 11:43 PM
Battle Jump from Unapproachable East allows an attack when falling or dropping on something. Double damage and is considered a charge. Obviously synergises with pouncing.

Roofwalker and Roof jumper are tactical feats from cityscape that allow controlled falls and bonus damage on falling attacks.

Movement bonuses correlate to jumping distace. Ring of Jumping or Boots of Striding and Springing would be good. I'm sure there are other items.

I though about using a concept like this in an IC competition, but did not have the time to make it work.

edit:

Tactics were...Jumping pounce as a move action. Improved grab. Jumping again (required high strength and decent grapping to move with target). Release target at apex of jump, then fall on them and pounce again.

Grants 2 full attacks and falling damage per turn. Requires a few skill tricks/spells/items to ensure maximum potential.

The dungeoncrasher ACF works well with this, providing the target can be knocked 'back' into the ground repeatedly.
I have to say, this is by far the most awesome combat strategy I've heard in a long time.


OK, another question is: can you move the opponent over your head during a grapple through the normal "move while grapple" without really "moving" yourself? If this is the case, a large creature with a height of 2 squares could lift a character 3 squares up and then end the grapple making that opponent take falling damage?

Also, does that mean that a 10' creature can simple "lift" a character 5' off the ground, make a 5' jump holding the creature making you 5' off the ground and it 10' off the ground, drop it for falling damage, fall onto it that way, ect?




Finally, assuming you have a melee reach of X feet, let's say 10, and you are over 10' tall, could you just fall prone onto them like these guys?

http://www.mariowiki.com/images/d/de/Whomp.png

You might remember them from super mario 64, they'd just run up to you and fall on you.