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Morbis Meh
2010-11-21, 01:37 AM
I was thinking of a Cloistered Cleric//Swordsage focusing on Dex with these feats:
(Human with 2 flaws)
Extend spell
Persist spell
DMM (Persist)
Extra Turning
Weapon finesse
Shadow Blade
Two weapon fighting

Domains:
Undeath (for +4 TA)
Spell (so I can persist wraithstrike)
Knowledge

Would this be a viable build? All you would really need is good Dex and Wis with mediocre Cha. Also I was wondering are there any Dex buffing spells that one can persist on oneself?

Eldariel
2010-11-21, 08:57 AM
Generally it's hard to go wrong with stat synergy. That's a fine build. And yeah, Polymorphs obviously can pump Dex. Divine Agility [SC] could be Reach Spelled and then Persisted. Stuff like Holy Transformation and Greater Visage of the Deity grants small Dex-buffs that stack with everything too. Yeah, there are options.

sonofzeal
2010-11-21, 09:12 AM
I always hate to have two 3/4 BAB classes in Gestalt, always feels like a waste. Same with having both as 6+int skills. And the stat synergy really just means a couple extra points AC, nothing to write home about. You'll get by just fine, because they're both strong classes and there is some stat synergy, but I'd do Crusader instead personally.

Eldariel
2010-11-21, 10:14 AM
I always hate to have two 3/4 BAB classes in Gestalt, always feels like a waste. Same with having both as 6+int skills. And the stat synergy really just means a couple extra points AC, nothing to write home about. You'll get by just fine, because they're both strong classes and there is some stat synergy, but I'd do Crusader instead personally.

Well, it's also Wis to Damage on Strikes from one-two schools, which is really nice, especially with full attack Strikes.

Morbis Meh
2010-11-21, 12:55 PM
Also full BAB means nothing when all your melee attacks become melee touch attacks, hence why I'd persist wrath strike. Persisting Divine Agility would do it as well that would be +5 to dex, atk, and dmg. Not too shabby.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-11-21, 01:32 PM
Get a 3rd level Pearl of Power and you can cast Anyspell, DMM: Persist Wraithstrike, recover Anyspell, cast it, and DMM: Persist Shield. If you can use exalted spell use (Greater) Luminous Armor every day, and get a Lesser Rod of Extend for that and Magic Vestment x2 which adds an Enhancement bonus to any Armor or Shield bonus you already have. Get Night Sticks for more DMM: Persists, and there's Metamagic Rods of Reach in MIC.

Try to get an Outsider creature type, whether via a +0 LA Aasimar (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) (delay the +1 LA and other abilities until level 90 (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a), or buy it off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) for 3,000 XP), with an Elf with the Otherworldly feat, or various other means (Human Half-Fiend 1 (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a), buy it off for 3,000 XP). That way you can use Greater Anyspell to DMM: Persist a Draconic Polymorph into a Kelvezu (MM2). That gets Dex 31, +8d6 Sneak Attack, 15 natural armor, Fly 60 ft. (good), and +8 to Hide and Move Silently.

The Kelvezu's already high Str score plus a +8 for Draconic Polymorph and a +6 for DMM: Persist Divine Power would give you Str 35, and with DMM: Persist Divine Agility you'd have Dex 41. Greater Luminous Armor + Magic Vestment with DMM: Persist Shield + Magic Vestment, along with the +15 Natural, a +15 Dex bonus, plus your Wisdom bonus, will give you an unhitable AC.

By level 13 you should get a standard Rod of Extend and a 6th level Pearl of Power. Every other day prepare Energy Immunity twice, cast it three times using the pearl to recover one, picking a different energy type each time. Use the rod to make each last 48 hours, you only spend two 6th level spell slots and you're continually immune to those three energy types. On the days in between prepare Energy Immunity once and Superior Resistance once, cast those and use the pearl to recover and cast Energy Immunity a second time, picking the remaining two energy types. Again use the rod so each lasts 48 hours, and for only two 6th level spells per day you're constantly immune to all five energy types and you get a +6 Resistance bonus on all saving throws.

unimaginable
2010-11-21, 01:33 PM
Also full BAB means nothing when all your melee attacks become melee touch attacks, hence why I'd persist wrath strike. Persisting Divine Agility would do it as well that would be +5 to dex, atk, and dmg. Not too shabby.Full BAB still means more attacks when you full attack.

Joshinthemosh
2010-11-21, 01:35 PM
I always hate to have two 3/4 BAB classes in Gestalt, always feels like a waste. Same with having both as 6+int skills. And the stat synergy really just means a couple extra points AC, nothing to write home about. You'll get by just fine, because they're both strong classes and there is some stat synergy, but I'd do Crusader instead personally.

Let the record show I really like this build as is just giving more ideas.

Clositered Cleric is the 1/2 BAB progression is it not? That being said I agree with you Crusader would probably help alot. Perhaps a two level dip into swordsage for the AC bump then into Crusader for a best of both worlds situation?

Also as you have all knowledge skills and Knowledge Domain. If you have the skill points to have a decent Intelligence, trade Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion. Plus 1 to 5 on attack and damage? Your TWF will thank you.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-11-21, 01:36 PM
Full BAB still means more attacks when you full attack.

Yes, but BAB is achievable via Persisted Divine Power.

eggynack
2010-11-21, 01:38 PM
I always hate to have two 3/4 BAB classes in Gestalt, always feels like a waste. Same with having both as 6+int skills. And the stat synergy really just means a couple extra points AC, nothing to write home about. You'll get by just fine, because they're both strong classes and there is some stat synergy, but I'd do Crusader instead personally.

Cloistered Cleric gets poor BAB.

Morbis Meh
2010-11-21, 01:51 PM
The only major dislike that I have of crusaders is how few maneuvers you can actually ready, I know that as soon as they're all spent they're regained. Well if I went with crusader it would free up two feats, since I would scrap dex and go str however no wis mod to AC, unless I take the 2 level dip, but would lower my overall initiator level...

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-11-21, 02:04 PM
Monk's Belt + (Greater) Luminous Armor. You can use DMM: Persist Shield with it too.

Edit: You don't get them back once you've used them, you get them back once they've all been granted. It's on a 4-round cycle, during those four rounds you get each of your readied maneuvers granted. During the next four rounds you get each of those same readied maneuvers granted again. You can pick and choose what to use during those four rounds, or you can not use any maneuvers and it will keep cycling through anyway. With Extra Granted Maneuver it gets changed to a 3-round cycle, so you can use your best maneuver every three rounds instead of every four rounds. A Swordsage uses their favorite maneuvers, then has to spend a full round action to get them all back if he got Adaptive Style, otherwise he spends a full round action on each of them to get them back.

Eldariel
2010-11-21, 02:17 PM
Perhaps a two level dip into swordsage for the AC bump then into Crusader for a best of both worlds situation?

Neither is "better". They're different. Crusader would free up Divine Power; useful. Crusader also has the best recovery in the book; useful. Crusader is awesome.

That said, Swordsage's Insightful Strikes is really good on a Cleric that'll eventually get like 40+ Wisdom. Swordsage has some less redundant disciples compared to Crusader. Swordsage also provides you with good Reflex-saves. Also, while Crusader recovery is better, Swordsage has so many maneuvers that recovery is rarely even needed. Your offense will be more versatile and most importantly, Diamond Mind is really good. Devoted Spirit, again, somewhat overlaps with Cleric casting while Diamond Mind is just awesome.


Oh, and to be Chuck E. Cheese, you need Swordsage for Setting Sun (which is an awesome school anyways) to eventually learn Tornado Throw. Also, the skill lists diverge more, Swordsage offering more stealthy-style skills (though you'd need something like Ruathar [Races of the Wild] for the full set of Spot/Listen/Hide/Move Silently). And yeah, Swordsage 2/Crusader is one Initiator Level behind straight SS, which is very relevant. Also, Swordsage's level 20 ability is quite good if you ever get that far (unlikely but just throwing it out there).

So...yeah, Devoted Spirit + White Raven vs. Diamond Mind + Tiger Claw + Setting Sun + Shadow Hand; better recovery vs. more maneuvers; better skill list and saves vs. BAB and HD. It's a world of choices.


Monk's Belt + (Greater) Luminous Armor.

Ultimately SS bonus + Celestial Armor might lead to higher AC (depending on how DM works with Magic Vestment on Greater Luminous Armor). And how much will be used in the end; of course with Shapechange-type spells and Divine Agility and company, Dex gets too high for armor.

gallagher
2010-11-21, 02:23 PM
if you arent going with a full BAB on one side, you SHOULD be persisting divine strength. you are TWF'ing, so you are going to need all the extra help and attacks that you can get

Morbis Meh
2010-11-21, 02:28 PM
The other TOB classes don't seem to have a good ability synergy with a cleric though... I don't to increase the MAD if I don't have to...

Reynard
2010-11-21, 03:02 PM
Take 2 level dip in swordsage, then. Just enough for the AC bonus in Light armour. You can afford to dump Dex as long as you go crazy with Wis.

After Swordsage, start picking up Full BaB. 2 levels Fighter isn't a bad choice, since you'll get bonus feats out of it.

Actually, what level are you starting at? If you take the Fighter levels first, you'll be able to get better maneuvers from Swordsage lv2.

Morbis Meh
2010-11-21, 03:19 PM
This is just a hypothetical build, I am going to convince our Dm to run a gestalt campaign after we finish ravenloft.

Eldariel
2010-11-21, 03:19 PM
if you arent going with a full BAB on one side, you SHOULD be persisting divine strength. you are TWF'ing, so you are going to need all the extra help and attacks that you can get

Eh, there are other buffs to last you through the early levels. With Dex-focus, Divine Power isn't that good until you're 3-4 BAB behind. And honestly, no, regardless of what people are saying you don't need to pick up full BAB to hit consistently even with TWF; you're going DMM: Persist Cleric so you can just Persist offensive buffs. It's not really a big deal either way. A Cleric can take care of his accuracy just fine.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-11-21, 06:57 PM
(Greater) Luminous Armor has no max Dex, so it's probably going to be the best choice long-term. Get a Rod of Bodily Restoration from MIC to take care of the Str damage for casting it.

Swordsage//Cloistered Cleric is definitely good enough, if that's what you want to play then stick with it and you'll still have an extremely powerful character. I dislike the d8 HP more than the 3/4 BAB, but since Str isn't important in the build you should be able to put a little more toward Con. Plus you can prestige class on the Cleric side without losing any skill points. If starting higher than 1st level, say your character visited the Frog God's Fane detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get Skill Focus: Kn: Religion for 2,000 gp without spending a feat on it, and get at least four levels of Divine Oracle for Uncanny Dodge. Contemplative is another great choice, especially considering you can pick up the Destiny domain at level 16, and when you get 9th level spells you can DMM: Persist Choose Destiny, and at 20th you'll get the Outsider creature type to be able to Polymorph into a Kelvezu.

Eldariel
2010-11-21, 07:52 PM
(Greater) Luminous Armor has no max Dex, so it's probably going to be the best choice long-term. Get a Rod of Bodily Restoration from MIC to take care of the Str damage for casting it.

Eh. He's a Cleric. Cast some Lesser Restorations; what else are you gonna do with all those level 2 slots anyways? Ok, so prepare Silences but still.

sonofzeal
2010-11-21, 10:42 PM
The other TOB classes don't seem to have a good ability synergy with a cleric though... I don't to increase the MAD if I don't have to...
Ability synergy is far less important for ToB than for most characters. Crusaders are fine without Cha, Swordsages are fine without Wis, and Warblades are fine without Int. They each get a bit of extra mileage out of the class, but even in a non-gestalt game you never have to count on that to do well.

Also, Clerics already use Cha for Turn Undead, getting a Smite and a few defences based off it does still synergize.