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WarKitty
2010-11-21, 03:46 PM
How does one go about getting reduced-cost metamagic on a divine character that does not have turn attempts?

Psyren
2010-11-21, 03:51 PM
Acquire turn undead by some other means, like Sacred Exorcist or binding Tenebrous. (Check the Lists of Stuff for more.)

WarKitty
2010-11-21, 03:56 PM
Acquire turn undead by some other means, like Sacred Exorcist or binding Tenebrous. (Check the Lists of Stuff for more.)

Not interested. Looking for ways to get metamagic reducers without turn undead. Acquiring turn undead almost always is more trouble than it's worth if you're not building a DMM cleric type. At which point you might as well play a cleric.

Urpriest
2010-11-21, 04:01 PM
There's an adaptation of Anima mage for divine casters. Residual Metamagic might work. Practical Metamagic will work for a Favored Soul, Shujenja, or Spirit Shaman. Easy Metamagic probably works if you're accepting Dragon material. Does Arcane Thesis work?

WarKitty
2010-11-21, 04:04 PM
Druid with no Dragon, Web-only, or setting-specific material allowed. I'm open to ideas about class dips but would rather avoid going away from the whole druid progression or having to fulfill too onerous requirements.

hamishspence
2010-11-21, 04:05 PM
What about items (Metamagic Rods), or those feats that allow you to use a metamagic effect once per day without it taking up a higher level slot?

Sudden Metamagic feats, specifically.

WarKitty
2010-11-21, 04:06 PM
What about items (Metamagic Rods), or those feats that allow you to use a metamagic effect once per day without it taking up a higher level slot?

Sudden Metamagic feats, specifically.

Point. Just looking at what options I have overall, for planning purposes.

Marnath
2010-11-21, 04:09 PM
You could make it take wildshape charges instead of turning attempts.

hamishspence
2010-11-21, 04:10 PM
Heavy duty arcane metamagic reducers (the incantatrix from Player's Guide to Faerun) get massive calls of "cheesy" though.

Divine metamagic tends to not have quite so good metamagic-based PRCs.

EvilJames
2010-11-21, 04:37 PM
dread necros get rebuke which would work. Also I think there are a few Prc's that get it that a druid could qualify for.

hamishspence
2010-11-21, 04:40 PM
They may get Rebuke Undead, but Dread Necromancers are still arcane casters.

Psyren
2010-11-21, 04:41 PM
Not interested. Looking for ways to get metamagic reducers without turn undead. Acquiring turn undead almost always is more trouble than it's worth if you're not building a DMM cleric type. At which point you might as well play a cleric.

Sheesh. :smallannoyed:

Give rods a try.

WarKitty
2010-11-21, 04:46 PM
Sheesh. :smallannoyed:

Give rods a try.

Sorry, grouchy. And a bit annoyed with having a slightly different question answered than the one I asked.
Ignore that bit, I seem to be coming off as passive-aggressive even when I don't mean to.

Edit: I think part of the issue may be the whole optimization thing. On stuff like this I need a way to be adequate, not a way to be the best at everything. And the suggestions on this board tend towards either being the absolute best or don't bother you ought to do this instead so you can be the absolute best.

Psyren
2010-11-21, 04:54 PM
Sorry, grouchy. And a bit annoyed with having a slightly different question answered than the one I asked.
Ignore that bit, I seem to be coming off as passive-aggressive even when I don't mean to.

Edit: I think part of the issue may be the whole optimization thing. On stuff like this I need a way to be adequate, not a way to be the best at everything. And the suggestions on this board tend towards either being the absolute best or don't bother you ought to do this instead so you can be the absolute best.

Except you didn't actually say "how can I do X WITHOUT Turn Undead?"; you said "how can I do X when I don't have Turn Undead?" To which the response "here's how you can get Turn Undead" is perfectly viable.

Marnath's suggestion seems reasonable - a DMM that is powered by Wildshape - especially since Wildshape is generally more powerful than actual turning, making it a heavier opp. cost.

dextercorvia
2010-11-21, 05:04 PM
Practical Metamagic (Dragonblood subtype required) would work... but assuming you plan to take Nat. Spell at 6, you can't take PM till 9. Metamagic Spell Focus works also, but requires Spell Focus for a druid.

WarKitty
2010-11-21, 05:12 PM
Except you didn't actually say "how can I do X WITHOUT Turn Undead?"; you said "how can I do X when I don't have Turn Undead?" To which the response "here's how you can get Turn Undead" is perfectly viable.

Marnath's suggestion seems reasonable - a DMM that is powered by Wildshape - especially since Wildshape is generally more powerful than actual turning, making it a heavier opp. cost.

Yeah, I think it's more "how do I get viable metamagic reducers without having to build my whole character around them" than the actual not using turn attempts thing. Hence the edit. Like I said, all the how to get turn attempts methods require a significant investment in terms of feats and class levels.

Keld Denar
2010-11-21, 05:19 PM
And all of the other metamagic reducers are going to require significant investments as well. Sorry, thats just the way it is. You're either gonna have to pay out the nose in feats, or you are gonna have to pay out the nose in cash for rods. Period. There isn't really a middle ground. Sorry, thats just kinda the fact of the matter.

WarKitty
2010-11-21, 05:21 PM
Grrr. Oh well, I don't have a lot of free feats already the way things are and I'm not going to have the higher-level slots to burn for a while.

Marnath
2010-11-21, 05:24 PM
Yeah, I think it's more "how do I get viable metamagic reducers without having to build my whole character around them" than the actual not using turn attempts thing. Hence the edit. Like I said, all the how to get turn attempts methods require a significant investment in terms of feats and class levels.

What about what I suggested? Is your DM anti-homebrew? If you wanna do it RAW, then Keld is right, there's no real way around that expense.

WarKitty
2010-11-21, 05:25 PM
What about what I suggested? Is your DM anti-homebrew? If you wanna do it RAW, then Keld is right, there's no real way around that expense.

Anti-homebrew, yes.

Marnath
2010-11-21, 05:29 PM
Anti-homebrew, yes.

I guess you're out of luck then. :smallfrown:

Keld Denar
2010-11-21, 05:29 PM
What metamagic are you trying to apply to what? Most druid spells do best with a simple Extend Spell applied to it. Are you trying to persist things?

WarKitty
2010-11-21, 05:33 PM
What metamagic are you trying to apply to what? Most druid spells do best with a simple Extend Spell applied to it. Are you trying to persist things?

Hoping for persist eventually, for buffs. For more short-term I could *really* use Reach Spell, both for quick mid-combat buffs and for those nasty poison and a few other offensive touch spells.

Psyren
2010-11-21, 05:33 PM
Depending on your party makeup, rod expenses might not be bad. Say, if you have a Warlock or Artificer handy or something.

Coidzor
2010-11-21, 06:21 PM
Druid with no Dragon, Web-only, or setting-specific material allowed. I'm open to ideas about class dips but would rather avoid going away from the whole druid progression or having to fulfill too onerous requirements.

Wow, that's harsh, especially for binders.

As a druid though... you're mostly SOL for any commonly posited route, since practical metamagic only applies to your spontaneously cast spells (which means Spirit Shaman's actually better off than you there, though you could like, practical metamagic quicken on your summon nature's allies, a different summoner feat would probably be better though), arcane thesis only applies to arcane spells, you don't want to use DMM...

Psyren
2010-11-21, 06:24 PM
Wow, that's harsh, especially for binders.

How so? They lose Zceryll and the psionic vestiges, but are more than playable without these.

Coidzor
2010-11-21, 06:32 PM
How so? They lose Zceryll and the psionic vestiges, but are more than playable without these.

Drat. There's something I was thinking of with half of its playability online. :smallconfused: Must've just conflated the online binder vestiges with that. Sorry.

true_shinken
2010-11-21, 06:33 PM
WarKitty, you don't need the metamagic. You are druid, for crying out loud!

Coidzor
2010-11-21, 06:38 PM
WarKitty, you don't need the metamagic. You are druid, for crying out loud!

The best buff is still measured in hours/level duration after all. Trying to even think of anything worth persisting...

Urpriest
2010-11-21, 07:02 PM
The best buff is still measured in hours/level duration after all. Trying to even think of anything worth persisting...

My guess is Bite of the X

WarKitty
2010-11-21, 07:41 PM
WarKitty, you don't need the metamagic. You are druid, for crying out loud!

PF druid, it's not *that* broken. There's two things I really need metamagic for. One, delivering touch spells without getting my face hammered in for entering melee. Two, using AoE spells without damaging my allies. Honestly, my alliese are aksing me to take this stuff. Persisting would be kind of a bonus to keep my companion and my allies up.

Aquillion
2010-11-21, 07:49 PM
Bards have a power (a feat, IIRC) that lets you exchange Bardic Music usages for Metamagic reduction in the same way. It's not broken the way Divine Metamagic is, though, because they were smart enough to limit it to only producing modified spells whose (unreduced) total metamagic level would put them in the range of what you can cast -- in other words, you can't use it to persist high-level spells like a cleric can (unless you're epic level, I guess.)

It's still a useful feat, but not game-breaking like Divine Metamagic is (also, I don't think there's any easy way to get extra Bardic Music uses.)

Urpriest
2010-11-21, 07:54 PM
Well for those purposes Metamagic School focus seems ideal. Lots of AOEs are conjurations, so you could Sculpt them conveniently a few times per day. Reach being a +1 metamagic, Metamagic School Focus on some common touch-spell school (no offhand I can't think of one) would help with that.

true_shinken
2010-11-21, 08:01 PM
It's still a useful feat, but not game-breaking like Divine Metamagic is (also, I don't think there's any easy way to get extra Bardic Music uses.)

There are lots of ways. Easy ways.

Keld Denar
2010-11-21, 08:02 PM
I'm pretty sure Reach Spell is a +2 MM...

Coidzor
2010-11-21, 08:05 PM
^: Yeah, it's +2.
It's still a useful feat, but not game-breaking like Divine Metamagic is (also, I don't think there's any easy way to get extra Bardic Music uses.)

There's even a feat.

UA's fey druid would give bardic music uses and progress the animal companion if you can swing that.


PF druid, it's not *that* broken. There's two things I really need metamagic for. One, delivering touch spells without getting my face hammered in for entering melee. Two, using AoE spells without damaging my allies. Honestly, my alliese are aksing me to take this stuff. Persisting would be kind of a bonus to keep my companion and my allies up.

Man, if they want a dedicated blaster, tell one of the superfluous melee guys to play a blaster. You've got, what, 5 of 'em? :smallyuk:

If you're going to blast, you should be capable of doing enough to soften the enemy up for the BSFs before they mix it up, otherwise you're in such tight quarters that the DM is tailoring the encounters for them and to cut you out of the loop as was posited the last time this came up, putting you and the melee's ability to contribute at a competitive level rather than coupling with synergy.

WarKitty
2010-11-21, 08:39 PM
^: Yeah, it's +2.

There's even a feat.

UA's fey druid would give bardic music uses and progress the animal companion if you can swing that.



Man, if they want a dedicated blaster, tell one of the superfluous melee guys to play a blaster. You've got, what, 5 of 'em? :smallyuk:

If you're going to blast, you should be capable of doing enough to soften the enemy up for the BSFs before they mix it up, otherwise you're in such tight quarters that the DM is tailoring the encounters for them and to cut you out of the loop as was posited the last time this came up, putting you and the melee's ability to contribute at a competitive level rather than coupling with synergy.

We're down to three. There's two others that are melee competent but not pure melee. And I suspect it will drop farther once we get the new guys some decent equipment. Or kill the fighter. Actually, that sounds like a good idea.

Besides, I like the idea of 1d4 con damage as a ranged touch attack.

Godskook
2010-11-21, 08:52 PM
How so? They lose Zceryll and the psionic vestiges, but are more than playable without these.

You do realize that online-vestige binders are in a better tier than by-the-book binders, right?

Psyren
2010-11-21, 08:54 PM
You do realize that online-vestige binders are in a better tier than by-the-book binders, right?

Which in no way makes by-the-book binders unplayable. Please reread what I wrote.

Coidzor
2010-11-21, 09:15 PM
^: I don't think anyone said that it made them unplayable.
We're down to three. There's two others that are melee competent but not pure melee. And I suspect it will drop farther once we get the new guys some decent equipment. Or kill the fighter. Actually, that sounds like a good idea.

Wait, how is equipping the meleers going to make them not melee? Or are you saying that the guys who are currently filling that role will drop it and begin strengthening their other side? Gishes are generally in a melee role in a fight, even when they can switch out to pinch hit as support casters, simply by focus and usual spells prepped/known.


Besides, I like the idea of 1d4 con damage as a ranged touch attack.

It is nice, considering it's most likely to do HD to 2(HD) damage in HP... but it just doesn't have the same je ne sais quoi of Con damaging missile spam like I suggested for a cohort.

Godskook
2010-11-21, 09:15 PM
Which in no way makes by-the-book binders unplayable. Please reread what I wrote.

Eh, some of us have varying ideas of when "playable" starts on the tier list.

Psyren
2010-11-21, 09:32 PM
Eh, some of us have varying ideas of when "playable" starts on the tier list.

Generally 4, but even by-the-book Binders are a solid 3.

Godskook
2010-11-21, 10:58 PM
Generally 4, but even by-the-book Binders are a solid 3.

Doh, forget which tier they stood in pre-online.

Aquillion
2010-11-22, 11:39 AM
There are lots of ways. Easy ways.
Let me rephrase that: Nothing on par with Nightsticks, at least as far as I know. Feats and stuff don't matter, it's the fact that Nightsticks let you get you unlimited extra Turning attempts for a fixed GP cost that really breaks Divine Metamagic.

(That and the whole "use divine metamagic to boost the spell beyond what you could have otherwise", of course.)

true_shinken
2010-11-22, 12:07 PM
Let me rephrase that: Nothing on par with Nightsticks, at least as far as I know. Feats and stuff don't matter, it's the fact that Nightsticks let you get you unlimited extra Turning attempts for a fixed GP cost that really breaks Divine Metamagic.

(That and the whole "use divine metamagic to boost the spell beyond what you could have otherwise", of course.)

Nightstick stacking does not even work. How are you holding all of them? It's good enough to TO ('the rules don't say I can't' :smallsigh:) but if you are thinking of using that in a casual game, you're nuts.
Also, you get more bardic music uses than turn undead. Bard 20 gets 20 bardic music uses, while a Cleric with Charisma 30 and Extra Turning only has 17.
From the top of my head, Artist and Extra Music already add 7, so you're looking at a 20th level Bard wirh 27 spending two feats. I believe a few items add to bardic music uses per day as well.
tl;dr Yes, nightstick abuse is silly, but besides that it's easier to get more bardic music/day than turn undead/day.

Psyren
2010-11-22, 01:13 PM
Nightstick stacking does not even work. How are you holding all of them?

Unfortunately, the RAW is delightfully vague on how you activate a nightstick, and the SRD points out that the activation method is spelled out in the rod's description with no default to fall back on when it isn't.

true_shinken
2010-11-22, 01:26 PM
Unfortunately, the RAW is delightfully vague on how you activate a nightstick, and the SRD points out that the activation method is spelled out in the rod's description with no default to fall back on when it isn't.

Like I said before... 'the rules don't say I can't'. :smallsigh:
I miss a forum where the ten commandments of practical optimization where stickied.

Psyren
2010-11-22, 01:34 PM
Like I said before... 'the rules don't say I can't'. :smallsigh:

I prefer to say:

"Nothing is true; everything is permitted." (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/The_Creed)

:smallwink:

Tael
2010-11-22, 03:08 PM
I would personally have a custom belt and vest of nightsticks crafted, so that I can easily have 20 touching my skin at one time. But even without, just whip out a new one every time you want to cast a MM'd spell. For buffs, you hold 2 in your hands when persisting, and you're set. I really don't see how not holding all of them at the same time limits you much.

Keld Denar
2010-11-22, 03:23 PM
That really depends. The way its written suggests a "count up" method, rather than a "count down". With the count up method, you track how many you've used in a given day, and compare that to the maximum you can use. That way you can't consume "temporary" turn undead attempts that then go away. Most things with charges suggest a "count down" method, where you have X charges and when you use one, you have X-1 charges remaining.

Example: Joe the cleric has 4 TU attempts (3 + 1 for Cha). He activates Law Devotion a second time in a day, burning 3 TU attempts to do so. He's use 3/4. Later in the day, Joe casts Eagle's Splendor, increasing his TU attempts available per day. He's now used 3/6. With those 3 TU attempts, he activates Law Devotion for a third time, bringing his count to 6/6. After the Eagle's Splendor wears off, he is now at 6/4 and can't turn anything or use any attempts. Later on in the day, he picks up a Night Stick, increasing his TU attempts to 6/8. He still doesn't have 3 left to activate Law Devotion, but he can use 1 or 2 of them to turn some undeaders that are threatening the party.

If you count up, as the rules seem to suggest to me, you also don't have a problem with rod stacking, assuming you can only have one active rod at a time.