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opticalshadow
2010-11-21, 03:55 PM
hey, im currently in a core only game at level 3, im not very familiar with druids, im mainly a wizard or dread necro, i looked at the various handbooks but none of them are really written for core, and their explanations are scarce at best.

first off, im close to level 4, should i keep my war trained riding dog, or is there a btter choice (cant use the flesh dino)? the handbook says go with croc, but it will have less hp, less ac, while it can grapple, my dog can also trip, i also looked at the ape which looks like it could be a dps power house, buts its not recommend. which animal companion should i be taking at what levels all together? or is my dog going to be the cream of my crop?

also with animal companions, how does the adv.penalties work? is that (for lvl 4) -3 to the actual animals level, or -3 to the druid level bonuses that they receive?

my current build is going to be a SNA and buff, wildshapes will be grapplers mostly and im going for grappling feats, is this a good idea?

also at this time i really dont feel like im pulling my weight, any strategies i should be aware of for low level druid play?

Urpriest
2010-11-21, 04:05 PM
-3 to the effective druid level for the bonuses, not -3 to the animal's level.

Frankly, the riding dog will still be a good bet. As for contributing, the riding dog should be making a pretty decent contribution in combat. Summoning is a little weak at low level, but it will pick up when used tactically. Entangle is an excellent spell.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-11-21, 04:05 PM
-3 to the druid level bonuses that they receive?

That one.


my current build is going to be a SNA and buff, wildshapes will be grapplers mostly and im going for grappling feats, is this a good idea?

Grappling has the drawback of also taking you out of the fight, unless you go for something like Giant Squid (which on second thought you probably would do), just keep that in mind.

mostlyharmful
2010-11-21, 04:12 PM
low level druid's are a whole lot about BFC, Entangle is the best level 1 spell for taking out swathes of mooks, just combine with some distance weaponry and laugh. Summons, Entangle, Obscuring Mist, SNAx and Summon Swarm are all good for mazimizing others contributions. If you really want to mix it up go for some of the buffs you've got, shared with AC, and go to town. barkskin, Shillelagh, magic Fang, Flame blade and summons combine nicely for a nova. bear in mind that you are stronger than the average but not yet godlike, the 'lightening spitting bear with a pet bear that spits lightening while summoning angelic bear armies' is still a few levels off.

opticalshadow
2010-11-21, 04:26 PM
thx for fast responses, the riding dog is...or was doing alot, alas he was killed, i think our party might be over our head, idk know if im even alive at this point (last night ended with all but one of us under 0 hp)

thanks for the companion rules, and i guess ill stick with the dog, i was mainly wondering if he is still better then lets say the ape?

the reason i was going with grapple is i know from playing with dread necro there are some things enemies never seem to be good with, and one of them is dealing with grapplers, the druid can get to use in wildshape alot of really fun cretures that not only grapple but deal really nice dmg for doing it, and most enemies have trash to fighting in grapple or trying to break it, so im not really our of a fight, im forcing the enemy to fight me in a postion where im am far more dominate. it was also my eventual plan for SNA, when im higher level and can summon multiple grapple animals, i can take multiple enimies out at once.

as far as combat now goes, i made this character with the mid levels in mind, i dont plan on staying in normal form most of the day i plan to be wildshapped, so things like my dex and str are rather low (since i assume the creatures str and dex) so as far as combat goes i myself cant hit water if i fell off a boat.

edit: also what would be good choices for animal companion after 4th? thx

tyckspoon
2010-11-21, 05:12 PM
Leopard and Ape would be my favorite picks from the 4th level AC list. A Heavy Horse isn't a bad choice either, if you can spare the time to train it for combat- it's best if you can get your DM to upgrade it to the full Heavy Warhorse, which somewhat inexplicably has more 1 HD and better stats, but you should at least be able to teach your horse to use the Warhorse's Hoof/Hoof/Bite attack routine.

Endarire
2010-11-21, 09:13 PM
Hi Welcome (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9724.0)

Urpriest
2010-11-21, 09:23 PM
Hi Welcome (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9724.0)

Ain't exactly core, friend.

Leon
2010-11-21, 10:07 PM
If your happy with the Dog then keep the Dog - take anything those handbooks say with a grain of salt.

Eldariel
2010-11-21, 10:21 PM
Dire Bat is the strongest companion on level 4. That said, Riding Dog is perfectly viable and Crocodile is far from terrible. Don't forget to equip it. Even something as simple as Barding Armor makes a huge difference.

Spells...Entangle and Soften Earth and Rock should definitely be in there. The low levels, battlefield control is your #1 forte and the best use of your spell slots and your spells are hard to evade or deal with. Buffs are decent but don't spend your combat actions on them too much.


Handle Animal and Wild Empathy enable having various "animal friends" which might be a good idea, not to mention very thematic. One extra "AC" can be directed as a move action with Handle Animal too.

Others of your skills are very strong too. Make the most out of your notable skill point allotment.


Feats...I prefer Tripping to Grappling but Grapple is quite alright once you get Large Wildshape. Augment Summoning + Extend Spell/Quicken Spell are good for casting and Craft Wondrous Items + Craft Magic Arms & Armor are probably the best Craft-feats. Spell Penetration is far from terrible on Druids too. Obviously also pick up Multiattack. And yeah, Natural Spell on 6 obviously.

opticalshadow
2010-11-22, 01:12 AM
Hi Welcome (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9724.0)

not only is it not core, but ive already stated that i cant use the dino.

ok regaurds to animal companions, my riding dog had chain shirt barding, he had our groups highest ac, he was badass, i liked him, but his overall dmg output wasnt very high, which is why i was concidering upgrading. i see a few things thrown around here so if i could get a little clarifacation, why is the dire bat the best in your opinion? he can fly, but i would have to buff him to be able to carry my weight, and his battle stats dont look all that imprecive, and while there are some fun things i could do with him, such as aerial bombardment, im curoius to know your reasoning, i havent used one before, and any flying creatures i have used were much more powerful (wizard summons or dred necro allies)

the croc looks like he would be good, but not for quite a few levels after the riding dog just because the dog will have bonoues the croc cant get for awhile, the ape looks like the big bad dmg dealer, but i always read hes a bad choice, i may ask about the warhorse idea as it sounds like it wouldnt be bad in combat, but it also solves travel and weight problems for me.

again thanks for your opinions, i try not to follow the handbooks to much, but when your really clueless on your class, they help a little, its hard enough finding core only ideas, everyone wants to suggest this or that, but if its not core theres a chance i cant get it.

one more question, my DM isnt totally closed to minor outside things, provided it isnt severaly op'ed would there be an outside companion i could choose? outside meaning not within the srds stated list? and please dont suggest the dino, or anything as powerful, its a great choice but even i think its a bit redic for such a low level to have.

sonofzeal
2010-11-22, 01:18 AM
Keep the Riding Dog, use the "trip" option rather than going for damage (same as wolf). Otherwise, Dire Bat is awesome too.

You're starting to get decent summons, and the duration to use them appropriately. Hippogriff is certainly your best bet. There's a non-Core feat, "Ashbound", which doubles the duration of your summons and gives them a small bonus on attack rolls, but doesn't raise the spell level. It's balanced with Extend because it only works on a few specific spells, and it's easy to adjudicate, so ask your DM about it. It'll make your life a lot easier until you get the really solid durations, and even then it'll open up some interesting tactical options.

Eldariel
2010-11-22, 01:20 AM
Dire Bat has:
Blindsense (VERY useful, Scent^10)
Obscene AC & Initiative
Large Size
Respectable Attack
Flight

If you e.g. were able to teach it to Grab people or such, that would be superb too (due to its large size modifiers); you could try teaching that as a trick or something.

And yes, dropping things on people is always useful, as is flying. You can ride it, remember. Also, great Spot & Listen and decent Move Silently and Hide, and good saves. Overall, it's just a really well-rounded package.


Keep the Riding Dog, use the "trip" option rather than going for damage (same as wolf).

You get both for free every time you attack automatically :smallbiggrin: But yeah, Dog is a decent option too. Bull's Strength doesn't hurt either; remember, it's effectively a two-hander since it only has one natural attack so it gains 1.5* Str to damage.

opticalshadow
2010-11-22, 02:31 AM
the bat sounds intresting but i have two things to ask about it.

1) is teaching it to grab (imp grab i assume?) something it can learn core wise?

2) i read somewhere that the dire bat really couldnt handle a med creature easy with mount given its str score, is this true?


if given that the grab can be tought and it can be mounted, do you think its all around better then the riding dog?

Eldariel
2010-11-22, 12:01 PM
the bat sounds intresting but i have two things to ask about it.

1) is teaching it to grab (imp grab i assume?) something it can learn core wise?

You might be able to teach it to Grapple without Improved Grapple as a trick; check with your DM. It'd provoke the AoO but given its AC, that's not the biggest problem. Improved Grapple it could learn as a feat eventually; animal companions' bonus HD give them feats. That would be much later though. If you could repick its feats (nothing strictly allows it in Core, mind, but it seems sensible given you can talk to animals and retraining rules exist; Psychic Reformation is the easiest means outside Core), it'd make a great Grappler right off the bat.


2) i read somewhere that the dire bat really couldnt handle a med creature easy with mount given its str score, is this true?

Its light load is 172lb; much depends on how much your character weights. Naturally flying characters can only fly in light load. An overweight character will have trouble riding it while a slim character can carry a lot of gear and still ride just fine.

Most Elves would have no trouble riding one while Humans tend to be a tad heavy except for the lightest (do note that your gear counts against the weight limit too). If you only need a limited period of flight though, Bull's Strength gives it +4 Str for 10 min/level which gives it 266lb light load; something that's rarely a problem anymore.

The crux of the matter is that it's not a quadroped which leaves it without a carrying capacity multiplier. Its strength is higher than most horses', for example. That and the fact that flight requires light load. Still, it's Large which helps a lot.


if given that the grab can be tought and it can be mounted, do you think its all around better then the riding dog?

I think it's more versatile. It has a large number of useful abilities for solving various issues and it's very hardy in combat. Strictly better, probably not. More useful, I'd say so. Still, again, either is a fine pick.

opticalshadow
2010-11-22, 12:16 PM
well i am human, however stats for itr were never actually made up (noone of us really have) so i can still make him shorter and lighters or possibly have it carry the wizard or something, but ill ask my dm about the grapple training, he might not be totally agenst it, but idk for sure, its ac will be though the roof.

now as a flying creature if it grapples it would be able to lift them up and drop them? if so i may get it just for that alone, use the enemies as ammo to drop on the other team.

Eldariel
2010-11-22, 12:30 PM
now as a flying creature if it grapples it would be able to lift them up and drop them? if so i may get it just for that alone, use the enemies as ammo to drop on the other team.

That'd require Snatch-feat and can use only creatures 2 size categories smaller than it; more relevant when you learn Animal Growth. So initially, not. It has to land and just grapple the oldfashioned way. It, however, is pretty big and strong so it's fairly good at it.

opticalshadow
2010-11-22, 12:58 PM
ahh, makes sense in some ways. well ill see if i cant atleast get it improved grab, if not ill see how high its ac gets, and ill look into its feats and if i can revise them at all. i guess deep down every druid winds up with a wolf or dog as the companion ive ever played with (most rangers too) i just want to be a bit differ.

Eldariel
2010-11-22, 01:05 PM
ahh, makes sense in some ways. well ill see if i cant atleast get it improved grab, if not ill see how high its ac gets, and ill look into its feats and if i can revise them at all. i guess deep down every druid winds up with a wolf or dog as the companion ive ever played with (most rangers too) i just want to be a bit differ.

You get to be the Bat Man :smallbiggrin: