Tarquin is a Bard (or Nale's Class Mix Thing)

[Silverlocke980]

So I just had a ridiculous thought.

Elan pretty clearly inherited his class from his mother (note her singing about serving refreshing adult beverages).

Nale went for the convoluted mix of classes he holds... that make him, basically, a Bard.

What better way to round off the family by making Tarquin a Bard? He would be the only one of the four to not be a Bard, and while he may be Lawful Evil, I'm sure there's a sourcebook somewhere that makes that okay.

Or, much like Nale, he took the goofuncular mix of classes that make him basically... a Bard.

It would also give Nale a good reason to make such a strange build; if he's seen his father use it, then that explains why he'd bother with such a thing. His dad is clearly successful...

[Dr.Epic]

We've never seen him cast a spell so that raises the question if he can cast spells. All we know about him is that he's supposedly a good fighter (general after all) and is manipulative so high cha and bluff skills. That could just be fighter/rogue combo. Again, we have to factor that implies spellcaster.

[Yendor]

Not a chance. Tarquin is Lawful, and can't be a bard. And Nale says his father taught him bards were underpowered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html).

[Silverlocke980]

But that doesn't rule out a Nale-style class mix. Though the spellcasting thing is a good point.

Then again, we've never seen him really fight, either...

[Zevox]

Classes are not inherited, so the very premise of the idea makes no sense. People choose what class they want to pursue. Even for those that do inherit some potential for things like sorcery, they have to actively pursue that class' skills in order to level up as it.

Plus, as noted, Tarquin is lawful, and as such cannot be a bard. He also has thus far displayed no casting abilities - and wearing heavy armor as he appears to would interfere with that rather badly - nor any roguish abilities. At this point, the best guess for his class would likely be a simple Fighter.

Zevox

[Silverlocke980]

I know that classes aren't inherited in the literal sense, though actually, in the comic, people seem to take after their family very heavily (Roy, Roy's sister, Elan, Haley, I could go on).

I'm meaning in the more metaphorical sense, of someone taking it on because their father did it. Like inheriting a trade- yes, it's a choice, but a heavily influenced one.

Though you are right, the heavy armor does pretty much sink my idea. Ah, well. It would have been fun. :D

[Dr.Epic]

Then again, we've never seen him really fight, either...

He just wears what looks like at least medium armor, something all martial classes get proficiency in.

[Sylthia]

He could be a Blackguard.

[Silverlocke980]

Would explain the high Charisma, as would Paladin of Tyranny- which, let's be honest, is so thematically appropriate my head wants to explode :D

[Azuyomi244]

A Paladin of Tyranny- which, let's be honest, is so thematically appropriate my head wants to explode :D

Yeah, that makes perfect sense!

[Kish]

Would explain the high Charisma, as would Paladin of Tyranny- which, let's be honest, is so thematically appropriate my head wants to explode :D
Except that 1) Roy said "paladin=definitionally one of the Good Guys" in the OotS world, and 2) Sabine tried to convert Miko to a blackguard. Both blackguards and evil paladins existing in the same campaign world makes very little sense.

[Silverlocke980]

True, true. Does that leave us with Blackguard as the most reasonable class, explaining high Cha and his armor?

[Sylthia]

Yeah, he's most likely a Blackguard or simply a fighter with a high Charisma. If I had to guess, I'd say Blackguard because it looks like their party already had a fighter with that sword and board guy.

[RebelRogue]

He's clearly an Inspiring Warlord :smallwink: Nah, I doubt Rich would include a 4e class like that, but it would be extremely fitting.

[Zevox]

I wouldn't assume Blackguard either, until we see evidence of the kind of special powers they possess, or of some sort of religious devotion to an evil deity or special devotion to evil as a cause. As it stands he just strikes me as a smart, charismatic Fighter. Like Roy, except evil.

Zevox

[Dalek-K]

He's clearly an Inspiring Warlord :smallwink: Nah, I doubt Rich would include a 4e class like that, but it would be extremely fitting.

That's what I was thinking... Because that would explain why the woman couldn't hit him... Not because he is agile but because she can't attack his reflex defense haha

[KingFlameHawk]

He's clearly an Inspiring Warlord :smallwink: Nah, I doubt Rich would include a 4e class like that, but it would be extremely fitting.

He might be a 3rd/3.5 edition warlord called a Marshal. They are proficient with all armor and charisma is the most important ability for a marshal. Google for more info if you want.

[Orzel]

Unless Tarquin was speaking figuratively, he was able to liquefy someone before his divorce.

Liquifying someone in D&D as a human typically requires magic, super strength, or a giant blender. So Tarquin is probably a spellcaster of some sort. I'd go with wizard.

Because I do think Tarquin had a giant blender back in the day.

[hamishspence]

Not a chance. Tarquin is Lawful, and can't be a bard. And Nale says his father taught him bards were underpowered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html).

True- but there is a feat that allows bards to continue levelling in bard after becoming Lawful, in Complete Adventurer.

Becoming Lawful doesn't lose them any powers- just stops them continuing to level up (without that feat).

[megabyter5]

That feat requires you to be a paladin.

[Damon_Caskey]

The one time Tarquin was shown in combat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html), he was sword and boarding (about time we saw one here), and obviously a lot better then Nale. Look at the injury discrepancy, he's un touched and Nale looks to be at half or less HP.

Nale is equal level to the order, and supposedly OK in head to head combat despite his class mix. Given Tarquin's almost, but not quite effortless domination of Nale, I'd say he's a straight fighter a few levels above the order. Probably on par with Miko.

Good thing for the world too, just imagine if his Charisma had any class effect. I've said this before - if Tarquin was a sorcerer, Xykon would be his bitch already. In my opinion, he's far more dangerous in many respects as it is... certainly more successful at this point. Plus, he'd probably laugh at X for relying on a McGuffin the same way X laughed at V for relying on cheap soul binds.

DC

[Zevox]

The one time Tarquin was shown in combat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html), he was sword and boarding (about time we saw one here), and obviously a lot better then Nale. Look at the injury discrepancy, he's un touched and Nale looks to be at half or less HP.

Nale is equal level to the order, and supposedly OK in head to head combat despite his class mix. Given Tarquin's almost, but not quite effortless domination of Nale, I'd say he's a straight fighter a few levels above the order. Probably on par with Miko.
Note: that was a flashback to before Nale left and became a rival of the Order. He would have been quite a number of levels lower at the time than he is now (the Order themselves were around 6-7 levels lower at the start of the story than they are now). Meanwhile, Tarquin has not been doing any adventuring for some time due to this little plot of his, and as such has not likely been leveling up at any comparable rate. Assuming his level is higher than the Order's because he was a better fighter than Nale years ago is therefore illogical.

Zevox

[Lord_Gareth]

I wouldn't assume Blackguard either, until we see evidence of the kind of special powers they possess, or of some sort of religious devotion to an evil deity or special devotion to evil as a cause. As it stands he just strikes me as a smart, charismatic Fighter. Like Roy, except evil.

Zevox

Blackguards, like paladins, are gods-optional. Indeed, the only real requirement is one's ability to convince a fiend to get you with the program. Now: what devil of any calibur wouldn't want Tarquin on Team Evil for life?

[Dusk Eclipse]

The one time Tarquin was shown in combat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html), he was sword and boarding (about time we saw one here), and obviously a lot better then Nale. Look at the injury discrepancy, he's un touched and Nale looks to be at half or less HP.

Nale is equal level to the order, and supposedly OK in head to head combat despite his class mix. Given Tarquin's almost, but not quite effortless domination of Nale, I'd say he's a straight fighter a few levels above the order. Probably on par with Miko.

Good thing for the world too, just imagine if his Charisma had any class effect. I've said this before - if Tarquin was a sorcerer, Xykon would be his bitch already. In my opinion, he's far more dangerous in many respects as it is... certainly more successful at this point. Plus, he'd probably laugh at X for relying on a McGuffin the same way X laughed at V for relying on cheap soul binds.

DC


But in his first appearance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) he is wielding a BFA, so I am not sure... maybe he is a warblade! they can change weapon styles without problems, and are definitely one (if not the strongest) melee (IE NO KIND OF MAGIC WHATSOEVER) class in 3.5

[Psyren]

My guess is Blackguard or Marshal. The latter is a bit more obscure though. However, the same book for Marshal (Miniatures Handbook) also uses the naming convention Tsukiko's orbs used.

Bit of a reach but hey. :smalltongue:

[Damon_Caskey]

Note: that was a flashback to before Nale left and became a rival of the Order. He would have been quite a number of levels lower at the time than he is now (the Order themselves were around 6-7 levels lower at the start of the story than they are now). Meanwhile, Tarquin has not been doing any adventuring for some time due to this little plot of his, and as such has not likely been leveling up at any comparable rate. Assuming his level is higher than the Order's because he was a better fighter than Nale years ago is therefore illogical.

Zevox

I'm not sure whether you are taking me or yourself WAY too seriously (and yep, I'm guilty of one or the other a bit myself for responding, but ahh well). I'm going to give benefit of the doubt and assume the former. Either way, the exposition on logic was superfluous; I know how to do basic math, thank you.

My theory was just that, a theory, not an assumption. It's also based on a lot more then a single comic panel. My assumption, if anything, was that other members would understand that and I wouldn't need to spend hours citing every nuance of my thought process to the letter. It's a comic forum, not a dissertation.

I stand by my opinion that Tarquin is a straight fighter 2-3 levels above the Order. Also, he appears to like Axes, and perhaps just hauls out the sword/shield combo when things get real. If I'm proven wrong, so be it.

DC

[Zevox]

Blackguards, like paladins, are gods-optional. Indeed, the only real requirement is one's ability to convince a fiend to get you with the program. Now: what devil of any calibur wouldn't want Tarquin on Team Evil for life?
Even Blackguards who do not worship a deity still exhibit some special devotion to evil as a cause, just as Paladins do to good. Tarquin has yet to show any such thing.


My theory was just that, a theory, not an assumption. It's also based on a lot more then a single comic panel. My assumption, if anything, was that other members would understand that and I wouldn't need to spend hours citing every nuance of my thought process to the letter. It's a comic forum, not a dissertation.

I stand by my opinion that Tarquin is a straight fighter 2-3 levels above the Order. If proven wrong, so be it.
The problem is that it's a theory that doesn't make sense, as the basis for it is fundamentally flawed, as I noted last time. As far as I can tell, we have no basis for any guesses at what Tarquin's level is, at all.

Zevox

[Damon_Caskey]

The problem is that it's a theory that doesn't make sense, as the basis for it is fundamentally flawed, as I noted last time. As far as I can tell, we have no basis for any guesses at what Tarquin's level is, at all.
Zevox

The problem with that, is you are again latching on to a single point as opposed to the big picture. You are also trying to apply logical fallacy to a simple conjecture, an opinion. That in itself is a fallacy, or more accurately a waste of time.

This is not the entirety of my thoughts, but it should shed a bit of light.

1. Tarquin is a villain who a) doesn't mind getting his hands dirty, and b) likes being prepared. It's not foregone, but stands to reason he is a good fighter (physically or otherwise).

2. On the occasion where Tarquin needs to assert himself, he has done so by purely physical (and thus far effective) means. Easily dodging all but one surprise attack, defenestration of Haley on reflex, defeating Nale in a stand up duel with little effort.

It may not speak of his combat prowess, but he also has been shown leading the charge of his army, taking heads of opposing factions himself, and leading an effective adventuring party.

3. XP is not a measure of how many times you swing your sword. Not in D&D, and not in OOTS. Given that every character sans Kubota thus far had levels to match their threat, it can be assumed that in OOTS, just like D&D, XP rewards are given for overall accomplishment. Even Shojo got to level 14 sitting on his a**. Tarquin has conquered half a continent, making him so far the arguably single most effective character in OOTS period. Unless he's getting the Kubota treatment, it's fair to say he gained a level or two.

4. The rival rule. Tarquin has quite a few, and he loves tropes. It's not a stretch at all to think he's leeching levels off someone else, maybe even Elan.

5. Occam's razor. He's a powerful villain. Powerful villains tend to be powerful individuals. Tarquin is probably a powerful individual.

I could go on, but I think this makes my point. None of it proves anything, because we don't have enough facts. Maybe Tarquin is a wuss. Maybe he's Girard in disguise. We just don't know for sure. But there is plenty to formulate a solid theory from. Mine is sword and board fighter who just happened to win the genetic dice lottery.

Speaking of time wasting, I am exiting this (and I don't mean that in a condescending kind of way, I just have some other things to take care of). Debate well everyone. :smallsmile:

DC

[hamishspence]

That feat requires you to be a paladin.

But I think you keep the feat even if you cease to be a paladin.

[wumpus]

I think people are reading way to much into "my father taught me [bards are weak]." The only way Nale would learn (and repeat) that lesson was by either stomping all over bards or if Tarquin was the "weak" bard himself. Tarquin assures us (and his judgement is usually superior to Nale's) that Nale had to be seen as the victor all the time.

Bards don't work that way. The goal of being a bard is to find a reasonably strong team, support/buff them to the point of being overpowered, and take credit for it afterwards. Nale has to put his rapier through the BEGG (big end good guy), but bards don't worry about that. They know that the tales told by actual witnesses won't be retold nearly as often as a well crafted song, so why worry about looking like the hero?

We have no reason to believe that Tarquin was known for stomping bards (he would be the type to have an enslaved bard PR corps. If we see one, we will know why Nale said that). It is perfectly reasonable to expect Tarquin to be a bard (assuming he can get around the alignment issues).

- aside here. Elan is quite possibly the only bard on the prime material plane that would put Roy as the hero instead of the Nale/Halley couple. I wonder if Roy will ever realize that.

[SaintRidley]

Tarquin wouldn't need many (or any, really) levels on Nale in order to properly hand Nale his ass. Nale's build is a hodge-podge meant to approximate a bard, poorly. Anyone with decent investment in a singule class would be able to handle him easily. See Roy being even levels and Nale recognizing how screwed he is back in the Dungeon of Dorukon.

[Hawk7915]

We know very little about Tarquin, so it's hard to say what his class is. What we do have...

- Tarquin has ridiculously high charisma. May indicate a class synergy (Bard, Blackguard, Marshal), maybe not (Roy has 14+ int, wis, and cha, but is a "big dumb fighter").

- Tarquin has a reasonable ability to bull rush (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html) people; not super indicative but a potential indicator that Tarquin has better than average Strength and/or access to the "Improved Bull Rush" feat.

- Tarquin is proficient in at least medium (possibly heavy) armor and has been known to use a longsword and shield (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html). While it doesn't bar spellcasting for him (he could have special armor, or the right feats, or just be using stuff with non-proficiency to "look the part"), the fact that we seem him in medium-heavy armor with a sword and shield for his entire career says otherwise; he is either not a caster, or he is a divine caster, or he has some highly specialized gear/feats/classes.

- (Personal theory): Tarquin has access to a class that grants (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0756.html) Uncanny Dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#uncannyDodge), and has a better than fair Dexterity score to boot.

From this, and from the fact that both his sons are multiclass combination, my money would be on Tarquin as a Rogue/Fighter/Blackguard. I'm not even thrilled with that though, as we have no evidence of Tarquin having an aura of despair or commanding undead. So if he is a Blackguard, he's only got a few levels in it (< 3).

[Zevox]

1. Tarquin is a villain who a) doesn't mind getting his hands dirty, and b) likes being prepared. It's not foregone, but stands to reason he is a good fighter (physically or otherwise).

2. On the occasion where Tarquin needs to assert himself, he has done so by purely physical (and thus far effective) means. Easily dodging all but one surprise attack, defenestration of Haley on reflex, defeating Nale in a stand up duel with little effort.
Fine and good, but doesn't really speak to his level, certainly not to the extent of supporting your guess that he's above the Order's current level.


3. XP is not a measure of how many times you swing your sword. Not in D&D, and not in OOTS. Given that every character sans Kubota thus far had levels to match their threat, it can be assumed that in OOTS, just like D&D, XP rewards are given for overall accomplishment. Even Shojo got to level 14 sitting on his a**. Tarquin has conquered half a continent, making him so far the arguably single most effective character in OOTS period. Unless he's getting the Kubota treatment, it's fair to say he gained a level or two.
Likely - but again, gaining a level or two is not comparable to what adventurers gain. Hell, the whole reason that V joined the Order is precisely because adventurers level up much faster than everyone else. You'll note, for instance, that Shojo's 14 levels took him a rather long lifetime to achieve, while the Order's 14 or 15 have come while they're all still in their 20s (or the equivalent for the non-humans), at least half of them over the course of just the last couple of years. Hence my point that Tarquin will not have been leveling up at the same rate as the Order or Nale since he's not adventuring, but running a plot to conquer nations by political and military means.


4. The rival rule. Tarquin has quite a few, and he loves tropes. It's not a stretch at all to think he's leeching levels off someone else, maybe even Elan.
There's certainly nothing to indicate he's a special rival to anyone - he just met Elan a short time ago, and we've seen no evidence of special rivalry with anyone else. Heck, it'd be quite the stretch to compare Elan's newfound opposition to his father to the personal rivalry of Haley and Crystal, the one known example of that we have. Simple opposition is not enough, else Roy would be Xykon's rival and leeching levels off him.


5. Occam's razor. He's a powerful villain. Powerful villains tend to be powerful individuals. Tarquin is probably a powerful individual.
Probably not a pushover, sure, but that in and of itself is far insufficient to assume he's above the Order's level, as you did.


None of it proves anything, because we don't have enough facts.
Which is precisely my point. We simply don't have enough facts to make a guess as specific as "he's a few levels above the order. Probably on par with Miko" and be able to say it's a solid guess. It requires far too much assuming to come to a conclusion that specific.

Zevox

[Hawk7915]

Probably not a pushover, sure, but that in and of itself is far insufficient to assume he's above the Order's level, as you did.

Which is precisely my point. We simply don't have enough facts to make a guess as specific as "he's a few levels above the order. Probably on par with Miko" and be able to say it's a solid guess. It requires far too much assuming to come to a conclusion that specific.

Zevox

Actually I think our best evidence is that Tarquin is 7th level minimum. Why? Because we see his teammate cast Heal and Blade Barrier, 6th level spells (11th level minimum), and it'd be kinda weird to have a party member be more than 4 levels lower (that's the supposed discrepancy between Roy and Belkar, and the Order has some extreme circumstances).

My gut says Tarquin is easily 16+, but the only real claim we can make from what we've seen so far is that 7th and even that isn't perfectly set in stone.

[Lord Bingo]

Plus, as noted, Tarquin is lawful, and as such cannot be a bard. He also has thus far displayed no casting abilities - and wearing heavy armor as he appears to would interfere with that rather badly - nor any roguish abilities. At this point, the best guess for his class would likely be a simple Fighter.

Zevox

Actually there is a feat in Complete Scoundrel (I think) that allows a paladin to multiclass as a bard and keep his lawful alignment. I don't think that is the case here, though...

I tend to think he is a fighter too -perhaps with a few levels of rogue/expert if you absolutely have to explain his charm with D&D rules.

[hamishspence]

Actually there is a feat in Complete Scoundrel (I think) that allows a paladin to multiclass as a bard and keep his lawful alignment. I don't think that is the case here, though...

Complete Adventurer- it's called Devoted Performer.

Anything with both Smite Evil and Bardic Music can take the Devoted Performer feat- it doesn't actually have any alignment requirement.

And someone who started out as a Bard, became a Paladin, and took the feat, could continue levelling in bard- since it removes the Must Be Lawful rule. (It also removes the rule that a paladin who takes levels in another class, can't keep levelling in paladin- but the only other class they can freely take with the feat, is bard).

And if the character gained a Smite Evil ability that could never be lost by changing alignment, then they could change alignment from Lawful Good to Lawful Evil, and still have both the prerequisites for the feat- thus still being able to take bard levels while being Lawful Evil.

not very likely, though.

LE Bard-Blackguard, would retain all bard abilities- but not be able to keep levelling in bard, under normal circumstances.

[Morph Bark]

He might be a 3rd/3.5 edition warlord called a Marshal. They are proficient with all armor and charisma is the most important ability for a marshal. Google for more info if you want.

Considering people are talking about the possibility of one of Tarquin's friends being a Psion or such, and the team involving a Catfolk woman, I wouldn't find it entirely unlikely for Tarquin to be a White Raven Crusader.

[hamishspence]

Yes- so far I haven't seen any references to Tome of Battle content yet in the strip.

Maybe this will be the time?

[factotum]

The question I have about this theory is this: how do we know Elan's mother is a bard? You don't have to be a bard to sing, after all, and it seems far more likely that she's an NPC class in any case--this isn't Forgotten Realms, where the waitress is a 7th-level rogue and the barman kills dragons at weekends for laughs!

[Psyren]

The question I have about this theory is this: how do we know Elan's mother is a bard? You don't have to be a bard to sing, after all, and it seems far more likely that she's an NPC class in any case--this isn't Forgotten Realms, where the waitress is a 7th-level rogue and the barman kills dragons at weekends for laughs!

1) I think it's assumed because that's the most likely place Elan learned the bardic tropes.

2) The manner of her singing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) seems bardic (and uses the same green music notes.)

[Ehra]

Plus, as noted, Tarquin is lawful, and as such cannot be a bard. He also has thus far displayed no casting abilities - and wearing heavy armor as he appears to would interfere with that rather badly - nor any roguish abilities. At this point, the best guess for his class would likely be a simple Fighter.

Zevox

I'd just like to run with Nale's "father taught me Bards are underpowered" comment, and say that if he feels Bards are weak then I don't think it'd make much sense for him to be a class that's even weaker than Bards.

[Irbis]

Likely - but again, gaining a level or two is not comparable to what adventurers gain. Hell, the whole reason that V joined the Order is precisely because adventurers level up much faster than everyone else. You'll note, for instance, that Shojo's 14 levels took him a rather long lifetime to achieve, while the Order's 14 or 15 have come while they're all still in their 20s (or the equivalent for the non-humans), at least half of them over the course of just the last couple of years.

You just demolished your entire point. If adventurers level so rapidly Elan is 14th level by now, then Tarquin, who adventured twice as long, can be up to 30th. From his adventuring years alone - 15 years of running kingdoms in much more active way than Shojo ever did gave him up to 10+ more, given similar rate of advancement.

Note that I don't believe Tarquin's level to be a simple sum of above numbers, but him being as powerful as Scribbles were when they broke up (after less adventuring than he did!) isn't out of question.

[Souhiro]

You know, Tarquin could be a Kick-ass Black Guardian. You don't need Paladin levels to be one (But they helps a lot)

And about the CHA (And Tarquin must have a LOT! Everyone loves him, even the ones who got orphaned by his hand!) Roy and Haley have high CHA levels, Roy has very hight INT (He has a MBA!) The Belkster has high STR, altough he is a halfling, Durkon has low KNO-Religion... So It don't really matters

[Deliverance]

Unless Tarquin was speaking figuratively, he was able to liquefy someone before his divorce.

Liquifying someone in D&D as a human typically requires magic, super strength, or a giant blender. So Tarquin is probably a spellcaster of some sort. I'd go with wizard.

Because I do think Tarquin had a giant blender back in the day.
Here's an easier way, known to every crime writer and a few real life criminals: drop the body in an acid vat. Sulphuric acid will do the trick every time. For a real life case, here's a wiki link to one of the more famous private practitioners of this disposal method: John George Haigh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_George_Haigh)

Admittedly he killed his victims before liquifying them (and getting rid of the "bodies" by pouring them down the drain), but having people alive when dumped into an acid bath is a standard crime fiction device.

So, was it possible for Tarquin to acquire enough sulphuric acid to liquify every man in the tavern who grabbed his wife's butt? I am certainly not willing to bet against it. :smallbiggrin:




I think people are reading way to much into "my father taught me [bards are weak]." The only way Nale would learn (and repeat) that lesson was by either stomping all over bards or if Tarquin was the "weak" bard himself.

..or if one of Tarquin's team members was a bard and the weak one in the group (poor uncle this or auntie that, she means well, but she is second rate; That bard training is a tragic waste of good talent) or if Nale had an opportunity to watch a bard in action and be less than impressed in one of the kingdoms he grew up in or if, god forbid, he might have actually trusted the judgement of his father (a highly succesful warlord good at manipulating people) about class mechanics and this might have come up in connection with Nale choosing which class to pursue in the first place.

There are many, many, possible ways that Nale could have learned that life leasson apart from "stomping all over bards or if Tarquin was the "weak" bard himself" - we simply don't have enough information to make a qualified guess.

[Irbis]

Admittedly he killed his victims before liquifying them (and getting rid of the "bodies" by pouring them down the drain), but having people alive when dumped into an acid bath is a standard crime fiction device.

Um... but, such a body ceases to be a viable fertilizer, suggesting some other method was used :smalltongue:

[Zevox]

You just demolished your entire point.
Except that I didn't. Read that last paragraph of my post again - my point is that we do not have sufficient evidence of Tarquin's level to say what it is with any real confidence. That he was an adventurer means he could be higher level, yes - but we have no evidence that he actually is particularly high level.

The only thing we know about his personal combat prowess for sure is that he is better than Nale was when they had their falling out - and Nale's level then is unlikely to have been that impressive, given his party was about matched with the Order back when they first met at the beginning of the strip. Plus Nale's build is rather poor to begin with, so he doesn't even need to be too much higher level than him to beat him with ease. That's not much to go on, and it means we can't make a real confident guess at Tarquin's level.

Most likely the coming duel between him and Elan will give us a better idea of his level (and perhaps class). We'll just have to wait and see.

Zevox

[Irbis]

Except that I didn't. Read that last paragraph of my post again - my point is that we do not have sufficient evidence of Tarquin's level to say what it is with any real confidence. That he was an adventurer means he could be higher level, yes - but we have no evidence that he actually is particularly high level.

You mean, no proof besides the fact he survived being an adventurer longer than Roy is alive, on his first attempt of conquest was crushing nations by the dozens, alone, and only a big coalition finally stopped him (but failed to kill him), then survived 15 years of being a general in constant war, and visible target for assassins? :smallamused:

Geee, he must be 5th level max.


Plus Nale's build is rather poor to begin with, so he doesn't even need to be too much higher level than him to beat him with ease. That's not much to go on, and it means we can't make a real confident guess at Tarquin's level.

Another unwarranted assumption, a few years ago I saw a potential build for Nale (in the Class Geekery thread) that was far superior to Elan. Nale loses bardic singing (meh), he gains much better spell list and modifiers (saves, BAB, HP, etc) across the board.

[Zevox]

You mean, no proof besides the fact he survived being an adventurer longer than Roy is alive,
And where do we learn that? We do not know how long Tarquin was an adventurer for, only that he was an adventurer before coming to the Western Continent looking to conquer a kingdom.


on his first attempt of conquest was crushing nations by the dozens, alone, and only a big coalition finally stopped him (but failed to kill him),
And you would suggest that this was because of his own personal strength, rather than because the nation he built was a powerful force? That seems ridiculous - remember O-Chul's explanation here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html) for why large armies of weak characters are a threat even to much higher-level characters. That success is a testament to his skills as a leader and nation-builder, not necessarily his level.


then survived 15 years of being a general in constant war, and visible target for assassins? :smallamused:
Again, given his nation-building and leadership skills, he doesn't necessarily have to be that personally strong to survive such a thing. Surely he has competent guards, perhaps even some of that death squad shadowing him, to help with that kind of thing.

Besides, with the largest other powers in the area, which are the nominal enemies his nation is fighting for the most part, actually being his allies, it seems likely that there wouldn't be as many assassins to deal with as you might assume given the general state of the continent.


Another unwarranted assumption, a few years ago I saw a potential build for Nale (in the Class Geekery thread) that was far superior to Elan. Nale loses bardic singing (meh), he gains much better spell list and modifiers (saves, BAB, HP, etc) across the board.
Considering what we've seen of Nale, I doubt that whatever build that was is accurate. His only spells used so far have been Charm Person, Expeditious Retreat, Suggestion, and Prestidigitation (according to the Class & Level Geekery thread), not exactly a great set of combat spells. E Retreat is good, but mostly if he were going for ranged combat with either a bow or spells, which he doesn't. The others have limited applications at best, and given his MAD, he likely doesn't have the best save DC for charm/suggestion.

Meanwhile, in melee combat, he was easily bested by Roy early in the comic, and was being beaten by Elan pretty thoroughly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html) in their most recent encounter. So he's apparently none too impressive at that, either.

Zevox

[Irbis]

And where do we learn that? We do not know how long Tarquin was an adventurer for, only that he was an adventurer before coming to the Western Continent looking to conquer a kingdom.

He was leader of powerful army 25 years ago, when Nale was born. He was what, 25-30, yet was more successful than Elan or Redcloak at this age were?

Occam's Razor: he was higher level than Elan is now back then.


And you would suggest that this was because of his own personal strength, rather than because the nation he built was a powerful force?

Yes. If you want to attract an army, army which will effortlessly conquer countries, you have to have Leadership feat + double digit level, major spellcasting, or other means of attracting (Fame rating) that are impossible until double digits. 5th level character will attract blind stable boy at best.


That seems ridiculous - remember O-Chul's explanation here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html) for why large armies of weak characters are a threat even to much higher-level characters. That success is a testament to his skills as a leader and nation-builder, not necessarily his level.

And yet, he survived that battle, and managed to escape with a child. A major distraction. How he did it, again, if low-level characters melt like butter in battle with superior force?


Again, given his nation-building and leadership skills, he doesn't necessarily have to be that personally strong to survive such a thing. Surely he has competent guards, perhaps even some of that death squad shadowing him, to help with that kind of thing.

Nope, he doesn't. Where were these guys when he was attacked (twice)? Where they are when he moves to another country? Does he take them with him, or does he spend his time in the next country defenceless?

It does not make any sense.


Besides, with the largest other powers in the area, which are the nominal enemies his nation is fighting for the most part, actually being his allies, it seems likely that there wouldn't be as many assassins to deal with as you might assume given the general state of the continent.

Only from these countries on 1/3 of the continent he conquered, you mean? Most of them were too small to even show up on the map, but were rich enough to hire bounty hunters.


The others have limited applications at best, and given his MAD, he likely doesn't have the best save DC for charm/suggestion.

What. Every single member of his family pushes 20+ CHA, easily. If Nale is even as low as 19, he can easily cast Gate, Time Stop, Wish, anything other Sorcerers can, by a lot of means. What Elan has comparable to that?

Sure, Nale haven't shown too many spells yet, but all that means is that he has 10+ known spells he haven't shown yet.


Meanwhile, in melee combat, he was easily bested by Roy early in the comic, and was being beaten by Elan pretty thoroughly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html) in their most recent encounter. So he's apparently none too impressive at that, either.

Intimidated by Roy, you mean. He clearly expected to hold of Roy while Thog finishes Elan - since Thog/Roy are comparable, this means Elan is much weaker.

I won't even touch the second example, because as if Nale with no gear whatsoever save for a non-magical dagger who almost defeated Elan with his new, OP gear and class means Nale is weaker to you, then I guess Xykon is 3rd level as he lost to 7th level Roy.

Seriously, if we ignore the way half the mechanics work in D&D we can make claims Tarquin, Xykon & Nale are weak, but if we actually look at them them being anywhere near low level is as impossible as casting Teleport is for V.

[Zevox]

He was leader of powerful army 25 years ago, when Nale was born. He was what, 25-30, yet was more successful than Elan or Redcloak at this age were?

Occam's Razor: he was higher level than Elan is now back then.
No. You do not need to be personally high level to lead a powerful army. You need to be an effective leader. Tarquin plainly is the latter. That does not mean he is the former.


Yes. If you want to attract an army, army which will effortlessly conquer countries, you have to have Leadership feat + double digit level, major spellcasting, or other means of attracting (Fame rating) that are impossible until double digits. 5th level character will attract blind stable boy at best.
And here you make a grave error: assuming you need gameplay mechanics to explain leadership of an army. You do not. That is done by roleplaying. Tarquin is smart and charismatic, plainly a capable leader and ambitious conqueror - that is all that is required for him to attract followers. That optional mechanics for such things exist does not mean they must be used.


And yet, he survived that battle, and managed to escape with a child. A major distraction. How he did it, again, if low-level characters melt like butter in battle with superior force?
Unknown - we have absolutely zero information about how that battle went down. It could be as simple as having a secret escape route through a tunnel he got out through before his forces were overwhelmed, or it could be by fighting his way out as you suggest. We have no idea.


Nope, he doesn't. Where were these guys when he was attacked (twice)?
The attack by his prospective wife just recently, you mean? Right in the other room it would appear, given how quickly they respond to his summons.


Where they are when he moves to another country?
He would get new guards from that country, obviously.


What. Every single member of his family pushes 20+ CHA, easily.
Assumption. Evidence required. All we know about Nale's charisma is that it is 15+, as that is what is required to cast Sending, the highest-level spell he has used (and via a scroll at that).


If Nale is even as low as 19, he can easily cast Gate, Time Stop, Wish, anything other Sorcerers can, by a lot of means.
Means which require items, items which we have no reason to believe he has. That his class lets him use such items is meaningless if he doesn't have them. And if he had them, surely he'd have used them in one of his encounters with the Order. Instead he has relied on his swordsmanship in combat, not magic.


Sure, Nale haven't shown too many spells yet, but all that means is that he has 10+ known spells he haven't shown yet.
Actually his sorcerer level could be as low 6 given what we've seen, which would give him only two second-level and two first-level spells we haven't seen, plus cantrips. Not terribly impressive. Plus, if he has a bunch of other spells that would help him in combat, why did he not use them against Elan last time they faced off?


I won't even touch the second example, because as if Nale with no gear whatsoever save for a non-magical dagger who almost defeated Elan with his new, OP gear and class means Nale is weaker to you, then I guess Xykon is 3rd level as he lost to 7th level Roy.
Are we even reading the same comic? Nale did not "almost defeat" Elan, he got his ass handed to him completely at the start, had to retreat and drink a healing potion, and the battle barely continued for any time after the resumption (neither combatant was sporting any new wounds) before V stepped in and ended it.

Also, Elan's class is overpowered? Not from what we've seen. It only barely makes him competent. And he still handed Nale his ass.

Zevox

[Deliverance]

He was leader of powerful army 25 years ago, when Nale was born. He was what, 25-30, yet was more successful than Elan or Redcloak at this age were?

Occam's Razor: he was higher level than Elan is now back then.

Success is not an increasing function of level.



Yes. If you want to attract an army, army which will effortlessly conquer countries, you have to have Leadership feat + double digit level, major spellcasting, or other means of attracting (Fame rating) that are impossible until double digits. 5th level character will attract blind stable boy at best.

That would be if you were a PC playing in a game going by rules that excluded the one rule that trumps them all, roleplaying. For NPCs, it is not uncommon for high intelligence to substitute for personal power in accomplishing wild goals, and it has been seen to happen for PCs too in games (and not only when the GM was drunk). Heck, we don't even know if Tarquin has a PC class. :smallbiggrin:

...He probably does. The Giant wouldn't pull a second Lord Shojo on us, surely.



And yet, he survived that battle, and managed to escape with a child. A major distraction. How he did it, again, if low-level characters melt like butter in battle with superior force?

At a guess, he wasn't on the front line in the battle unlike his army that got mauled.

Knowledge of when to cut your losses and escape and the mental strength to make the choice is not level-dependant. Neither is the judgement of when to sacrifice your remaining troops while you hoof it for the horizon.

Based on Tarquin's behaviour until now, he certainly doesn't seem to me to be the sort of general who leads from the front by preference, being more of a manipulating type than one who leads by example, but perhaps that's just me.

As for assassination attempts, is he the sort to survive the attention of assassins due to personal butt-kicking (often used in fantasy works), which seems to an argument to support a high level Tarquin, or is he the sort to survive the attention of assassins due to tight security measures? (the approach that works in the real world)? We don't know. We only know that he has survived.

...Look, it is entirely possible that Tarquin is higher level than the OOTS. You just cannot conclude it from what we have been told so far. Just about any level you would care to assign to Tarquin would be consistent with the revealed information so far, going all out "he succeeded because he is personally powerful" as the argument at one end of the scale and "he succeeded because he is a magnificent bastard who truly knows how to utilize his resources" at the other end of the scale.

The closest we have to real information is that two years before the current date the Linear guild (at whatever level they were THEN) fought Tarquin, Malack, and the Empress in melee and survived to tell the tale and that in connection with this betrayal, somehow three of Malacks children were killed. (Possibly in battle, possibly under other circumstances). We don't even know if other forces took part in the disagreement for either side (such as loyal/disloyal soldiers, for instance).

My guess? 14th-16th level for Tarquin and Malack. Based solely on this making a level-appropriate challenge for the OOTS. :smallbiggrin:

[Acero]

Tarquin claimed to have 'liquified' bar patrons, so perhaps he does have some spellcasting abilities..

[dgnslyr]

I've always toyed with the idea of Tarquin being an ex- bard, with levels in Fighter. It would explain his charisma, and I seem to recall Elan referring to his genre-saviness as "bardic" in nature, so Tarquin's familiarity with tropes may be because he was once a bard. My pet theory is that he was originally a bard, got tired of feeling "useless" in combat, and multi-classed out of bard and into fighter.

This is assuming we're sticking mostly to core. If we're allowed to move out of core a bit, I can see Marshall, Crusader, or maybe even Knight working, because all of them are melee classes that uses some charisma.

[Felixc-91]

when Tarquin escaped from his defeated kingdom he probably had his party members with him. it seems to me given what he's said and the flashback panels, that he lead a party of adventures that lead an army that conquered a massive chunk of the continent... so yeah, he had high level bodyguards.

[Daywalker1983]

So he IS a bard, considering how the dashing sowrdsman is a PrC of it. Maybe it even grants doge-boni, which would explain why his future wife could only hit him when he wasn't being a smartass about his treason.

[hamishspence]

Dashing Swordsman may be a generic PrC.

Was Julio Scoundrel a bard?

[Eldan]

I'd just like to run with Nale's "father taught me Bards are underpowered" comment, and say that if he feels Bards are weak then I don't think it'd make much sense for him to be a class that's even weaker than Bards.

Well, perhaps he meant "taught" not as in "he told me", but as in "Father is weak, and he is a bard, so bards are weak!"

[hamishspence]

Doesn't seem all that implausible.

I wonder- maybe Tarquin, while LE at the time of the divorce, isn't LE now, he's NE, he just looks LE, and is doing his very best to make people think he's LE.

If so, he could be a fully functioning bard still capable of taking more levels in bard?

[Orzel]

Well he says he gave his seed the prereq for Mobility. So he must mean Elan inherited his high Dexterity of Dex 13+.

Elan's misses with his BAB of +9 or higher and Tarquin's lack of a shield (dropping his nonmagical Feature to 20 with Dodge), means:
1. Elan rolled bad
2. Tarquin is wearing a magic item to boost AC.
3. Tarquin has an AC boosting feat or Feature.
And/Or
4. Tarquin is under the effects of AC boosting spell.

[Thanatosia]

After last strip, I'm going with Fighter-Something-Dashing Swordsman.

Fighter is obvious, and the last Strip made Dashing Swordsman seem obvious too - its possible he just picked up on his son punning and played along without really understanding why, but that doesn't feel as right to me as actualy sharing the prestige class, especially how he seemed to indicate that he knew the pun was a pre-req to Elans combat ability and not just something he did while fighting.

The ease with which he avoids blows, not just vs Elan but vs the City of Doom chick earlier, implies to me that he's got some sort of 3rd class sprinkled in that aids him in avoiding attacks. Anything out there give unusual dodge bonuses that works while wearing armor and both with and without weapon readied?

[Zordrath]

Tarquin at least knows about the Dashing Swordsman class, that much is obvious from this strip. That, or he just figured out very quickly how Elan's pun-based combat works.

It seems that he's even a Dashing Swordsman himself, which would fit him just as well as Elan, but I'm not quite sure. Julio Scoundrel mentioned that the class only worked with specific weapons such as the rapier, while Tarquin is using a dagger here - were daggers on the list of possible DS weapons?

[hamishspence]

Julio Scoundrel mentioned that the class only worked with specific weapons such as the rapier, while Tarquin is using a dagger here - were daggers on the list of possible DS weapons?

We don't know- it's homebrew.

He does say "when you wield a rapier" and doesn't mention other weapons:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html

but it's possible that "other abilities" might allow for other sufficiently "flashy" weapons to be used.

[Premier]

Another argument for Dashing Swordsman is that it's dramatically appropriate, and that's something Elan, Tarquin and the class are all about.

Think of it for a moment: the evil tyrant father is the representative of a long-lost "class". His good son learns the same from a noble mentor figure and confronts the father with his new-found skills. Sounds familiar? Substitute "Jedi".

[Zerg Cookie]

And Joliu was once Tarquin's mentor :smallbiggrin:

[Daywalker1983]

Another argument for Dashing Swordsman is that it's dramatically appropriate, and that's something Elan, Tarquin and the class are all about.

Think of it for a moment: the evil tyrant father is the representative of a long-lost "class". His good son learns the same from a noble mentor figure and confronts the father with his new-found skills. Sounds familiar? Substitute "Jedi".

Not to mention that Tarquin as a whole is Star Wars-themed.

[suszterpatt]

So wait, does this mean Scoundrel is about to show up and sacrifice himself to save Elan? Because at this point, the dramatic potential is there, even though (or because?) it'd make no sense at all. :P

[Tass]

Not to mention that Tarquin as a whole is Star Wars-themed.

Scoundrel even called Elan "padawan".

Edit: This guy has a point too. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176847) There may be a deeper family connection to the whole dashing swordsman stuff.

[Psyren]

We don't know- it's homebrew.

He does say "when you wield a rapier" and doesn't mention other weapons:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html

but it's possible that "other abilities" might allow for other sufficiently "flashy" weapons to be used.

Maybe it applies to any weapon a bard (or elf, or both) is proficient in?

What I find interesting is that it apparently provides a dodge bonus to AC if you counter-pun.
Or given the dramatic nature of the class, you can negate the attacker's Cha bonus to-hit by countering their pun.

[suszterpatt]

Maybe it applies to any weapon a bard (or elf, or both) is proficient in?

What I find interesting is that it apparently provides a dodge bonus to AC if you counter-pun.Actually, Tarquin doesn't start counterpunning until after he stops dodging. A counterpun looks more like a deflection bonus (allowing him to effectively and flashingly spar with Elan), while he has a possibly unrelated separate dodge bonus.

[Wou]

Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that DS can't wear armor?

[Psyren]

Actually, Tarquin doesn't start counterpunning until after he stops dodging. A counterpun looks more like a deflection bonus (allowing him to effectively and flashingly spar with Elan), while he has a possibly unrelated separate dodge bonus.

I amended that guess in another thread - rather than a dodge bonus, I think counterpunning lets him negate Elan's Cha bonus to-hit.

[SaintRidley]

As for Tarquin using a dagger in this fight and getting Dashing Swordsman use out of it when it's not a rapier, allow me to suggest that he may be playing up defensive qualities of the prestige class in this fight. It would be, in the main, gauche (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main-gauche) of him not to use one for defence.


Perfectly reasonable ability for a higher level in the Dashing Swordsman prestige class, no?

[Ehra]

Well, perhaps he meant "taught" not as in "he told me", but as in "Father is weak, and he is a bard, so bards are weak!"

Either way, I'd say it completely rules out the chances of him being a Fighter :p

[wizuriel]

Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that DS can't wear armor?

Just that it interferes with some of Elan's class abilities. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html)

Wondering if there is an evil version to dashing swordsmen. Kind of like Sith to Jedi.

[Zevox]

So he IS a bard, considering how the dashing sowrdsman is a PrC of it. Maybe it even grants doge-boni, which would explain why his future wife could only hit him when he wasn't being a smartass about his treason.
And where do you get the notion that being a bard is a prerequisite for being a dashing swordsman :smallconfused: ? There's certainly no indication of that when Julio Scoundèl explains the class (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html) to Elan. All he says is that it allows a character to use his charisma score to improve his fighting - the specific example given being that he can add it to his damage roll in place of strength. Scant few PrCs actually require a character to have been from a specific class in order to enter the PrC, and this one seems to be pretty general to me, not something that only a Bard would be able to make use of.

Plus Tarquin's remark about how Elan being a Bard "clearly [doesn't] have any combat skills worth mentioning" seems to indicate the reverse, that Tarquin himself is not a Bard, and as Nale indicated before he looks down on the class as weak.

Zevox

[Keinnicht]

Given the Charisma thing, it doesn't really make sense for Tarquin to be a bard. While I know OoTS does take dramatic license sometimes (frequently) it seems unlikely that a fighter, even a particularly charismatic fighter, would have a superior charisma score than strength score. He could plausibly be a rogue/fighter/dashing swordsman, or he could just be a fighter who likes puns.

[wizuriel]

We also know in the past Tarquin has used other weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html): A long sword and board against Nale and an axe during the days he conquered countries.

[Ehra]

And where do you get the notion that being a bard is a prerequisite for being a dashing swordsman :smallconfused: ? There's certainly no indication of that when Julio Scoundèl explains the class (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html) to Elan. All he says is that it allows a character to use his charisma score to improve his fighting - the specific example given being that he can add it to his damage roll in place of strength. Scant few PrCs actually require a character to have been from a specific class in order to enter the PrC, and this one seems to be pretty general to me, not something that only a Bard would be able to make use of.

Something interesting in your link is that Scoundèl specifies that the "use Charisma instead of Strength for attacks when you make a pun" ability works "when you wield a rapier," which Tarquin is not using in this fight.

It wouldn't surprise me if he has a few levels in Fighter considering the large number of weapons he's used in the past, but I'd imagine he has enough levels in other classes that calling in a "fighter" wouldn't be accurate.

[Runolfr]

The whole 761 exchange makes me think more of a combination of Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm than Tarquin actually having the "Dashing Swordsman" PrC himself. He obviously knows about the PrC, but there was no indication that you need to be a member of that PrC to counter its special abilities.

Tarquin is obviously the type of fighter who favors a strong defense over a heavy offense. Assuming that most of his levels are Fighter, I'd guess that he has invested most of his feats in defense. In his adventuring days, he was probably a classic "tank" drawing fire from opponents while his companions did the actual damage-dealing.

[Psyren]

I still see Tarquin as a Marshal. He fits it perfectly; only the relative obscurity of the Miniatures Handbook gives me pause.

[Zevox]

but I'd imagine he has enough levels in other classes that calling in a "fighter" wouldn't be accurate.
Based on what, exactly? The only specific class we can surmise he might have from what we've seen so far is Dashing Swordsman, and as others have pointed out even that's not absolutely certain.

Zevox

[ericgrau]

Didn't Nale learn from Tarquin that bard was a weak class choice? And based on Elan's comment that Nale's class mix thing is "needlessly complicated" in classic Nale overly-smart yet actually stupid anyway fashion, I'd say Tarquin would both be too smart to do the same and even if he did he'd realize his mistake soon enough to warn Nale. I mean it seems like something someone would notice over the decades.

Some other dramatic class combo seems more likely.

[Porthos]

The whole 761 exchange makes me think more of a combination of Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm than Tarquin actually having the "Dashing Swordsman" PrC himself. He obviously knows about the PrC, but there was no indication that you need to be a member of that PrC to counter its special abilities.

Well, there is Tarquin's use of puns (and Elan's gasp when hearing the first one). Seems to be supporting evidence of some sort of pun based combat ability.

[Runolfr]

Well, there is Tarquin's use of puns (and Elan's gasp when hearing the first one). Seems to be supporting evidence of some sort of pun based combat ability.

Tarquin also appreciates doing things that are dramatically appropriate, such as being able to throw puns just as well as his opponent. Of course, there's no indication that Tarquin is actually trying to hit Elan, so he wouldn't get a Cha-based damage bonus, anyway.

I expect Tarquin's use of puns owes more to the Rule of Funny than to the Dashing Swordsman PrC.

[Porthos]

Of course, there's no indication that Tarquin is actually trying to hit Elan, so he wouldn't get a Cha-based damage bonus, anyway.

No, but he could be getting AC bonus from it.


I expect Tarquin's use of puns owes more to the Rule of Funny than to the Dashing Swordsman PrC.

Really? While I agree that it might not be a Dashing Swordsman (but instead some sort of evil variant, one that allows swords and armor, at that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html)) I think the whole "Tarquin is just playing along" thing really doesn't hold water.

This was a duel. But one where one's mastery of puns was a key component. Are you really suggesting that Tarquin wasn't getting some sort of mechanical benefit from them? :smallconfused:

I dunno. Maybe you're right. But it sure seems to me that he was getting a dodge bonus from his puns.

[Runolfr]

But one where one's mastery of puns was a key component. Are you really suggesting that Tarquin wasn't getting some sort of mechanical benefit from them? :smallconfused:

I dunno. Maybe you're right. But it sure seems to me that he was getting a dodge bonus from his puns.

I am, largely because I see this as an incident of Tarquin using "counter puns" to taunt Elan, much like he probably taunts any opponent he fights. A feat like Combat Expertise would easily account for all of Elan's misses, and -- being Intelligence based -- even seems compatible with a demonstration of witty reparte.

[Morty]

It's not really plausible for several reasons, but I think it'd be neat if Tarquin turned out to be the inventor of the Dashing Swordsman class... but as I said, it most likely won't happen.

[Daywalker1983]

Didn't Nale learn from Tarquin that bard was a weak class choice? And based on Elan's comment that Nale's class mix thing is "needlessly complicated" in classic Nale overly-smart yet actually stupid anyway fashion, I'd say Tarquin would both be too smart to do the same and even if he did he'd realize his mistake soon enough to warn Nale. I mean it seems like something someone would notice over the decades.

Some other dramatic class combo seems more likely.

I recently read the Darth Bane Novel, and he was taught by his sith-wordsplay-teacher that dual lightsaber combat is highly inefficient...which left him unprepared when fighting said sith master and he breaks down his twosided saber into dual ones.

This is pretty far fetched and it might take the star wars reference too far, but I can see a guy making needlessly complicated plan doing smething like that.

@zevox: I was just assuming...whether there more PrC with class levels perequisites or not I wouldn't know...I'm drawing most of my knowledge from Biowaregame, where PrCs usually have that preq, especially "good" ones.

[Zevox]

@zevox: I was just assuming...whether there more PrC with class levels perequisites or not I wouldn't know...I'm drawing most of my knowledge from Biowaregame, where PrCs usually have that preq, especially "good" ones.
What games are you talking about? I've played a lot of Bioware games, but the only applicable one I know of, Neverwinter Nights, only has a couple of PrCs that have specific class prerequisites, and at least one of those, Dragon Disciple, is just because it was easier for them just outright say you have to be a Sorcerer or Bard than use the class's normal prerequisite of spontaneous arcane spellcasting, since those were the only two classes in that game which granted that ability.

Zevox

[Daywalker1983]

What games are you talking about? I've played a lot of Bioware games, but the only applicable one I know of, Neverwinter Nights, only has a couple of PrCs that have specific class prerequisites, and at least one of those, Dragon Disciple, is just because it was easier for them just outright say you have to be a Sorcerer or Bard than use the class's normal prerequisite of spontaneous arcane spellcasting, since those were the only two classes in that game which granted that ability.

Zevox

That one...

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Here's my bet. Let's stick to basic classes, as we know they are the most common in OotS.
It looks like Tarquin has the same dramatic sense than Elan, and we know "that stuff comes naturally to a bard": http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

So it looks pretty bardish to me. However, bards cannot be LE, so I assume Tarquin in some point of his past life, decided that thinking as a bard was a barrier for his purposes, probably changing from NE to LE, being more "mature" and taking levels as a Fighter. However, he kept all bard powers, specially the dramatic sense we know all bards in OotS have. A charismatic bard/fighter looks to me like the kind of class that could lead an army.

We haven't seen Tarquin casting any spell because he wears heavy armor, in order to take advantage of his fighter abilities.
Finally, in some point of his life, he also met Julio Scoundrél, and took some levels in the Dashing Swordsman PrC. This takes us to a potentially very dramatic scenario with Elan, Tarquin and Julio, being Mr. Scoundrél one of the characters most required from the OotS boards to come back.

That's my two cents. :smallamused:

[SinsI]

I think we need to look at 1st or 2nd edition of D&D to find out Tarquin's class - if Haley's Dad was a 1st edition thief, then Elan's should also be a 1st (or 2nd, at most) edition character.
And if that is so, Bard is the most likely choice.

[Kish]

Bards had to have the word Neutral in their alignments in 2ed. And...

Haley's dad being a First Edition thief was a throwaway joke a very long time ago. Whatever Tarquin is, I doubt very much he's not a 3.5ed character. By the same token, I doubt very much if Ian is currently a thief with a Backstab ability, rather than a rogue with Sneak Attack.

[Dalek-K]

In another thread I posted that Tarquin is most likely the evil counter part to Dashing Swordsman

Like

Paladin vs Black Guard (G vs E)
Monk vs Chaos Monk (L vs C)
Positive Energy Cleric vs Negative Energy Cleric (G vs E)

[Deliverance]

I think we need to look at 1st or 2nd edition of D&D to find out Tarquin's class - if Haley's Dad was a 1st edition thief, then Elan's should also be a 1st (or 2nd, at most) edition character.
And if that is so, Bard is the most likely choice.
Unfortunately, you are advancing the "age indicates edition" theory based on exactly one example, Haley's dead being a 1st edition Thief, while ignoring the glaring counterexample that proves the theory false: Xykon.

Xykon is older than either Haley's dad or Tarquin and he's a sorcerer, a class that didn't exist in either 1st or 2nd ed, and he has been so since childhood (or birth) as shown in SoD. It follows that one cannot conclude which edition any character is by his age and, in particular, we cannot conclude anything about Tarquin's edition.

[Irbis]

Unfortunately, you are advancing the "age indicates edition" theory based on exactly one example, Haley's dead being a 1st edition Thief, while ignoring the glaring counterexample that proves the theory false: Xykon.

Um, there were at least half a dozen examples. Dirt farmers, for one?


Xykon is older than either Haley's dad or Tarquin and he's a sorcerer, a class that didn't exist in either 1st or 2nd ed, and he has been so since childhood (or birth) as shown in SoD. It follows that one cannot conclude which edition any character is by his age and, in particular, we cannot conclude anything about Tarquin's edition.

Technically, Sorcerers were in various updates to 2nd Ed, not that changes much.

[Ehra]

Based on what, exactly? The only specific class we can surmise he might have from what we've seen so far is Dashing Swordsman, and as others have pointed out even that's not absolutely certain.

Zevox

If you would read my post, you'd realize we couldn't even say we know he's a Dashing Swordsman since he's not using a rapier which has been specified as a requirement for at least one of their abilities. If you had read any of my previous posts, you'd also notice that I pointed out that, considering we know that he thinks Bards aren't that great of a class, it wouldn't make sense for him to primarily be a class that's weaker than Bards (Fighters).