Feat Taxes

[Serenity]

I've been working on and off on a homebrew campaign setting for a while now. The basis for the setting is a world completely without arcane or divine magic, but filled with Psionics, Incarnum, and Tome of Battle characters. Now obviously, this is going to require some serious overhauls to the 3.5/Pathfinder system, whatever I do...so I might as well go whole hog, and rework feats along with everything else.

And so I ask you, Playgrounders: in your opinion, what are the worst feat taxes in D&D? Which feats should become commonly available character options? Which feats should be folded into each other? And generally, what sort of changes have you made to feats and the feat system in your games?

[Keld Denar]

Two Weapon Fighting.

Period.

Oh, and Weapon Finesse, which just screws the above combat style even more!

[CyMage]

Two Weapon Fighting.

Period.

Oh, and Weapon Finesse, which just screws the above combat style even more!

Don't forget the Dodge/Mobility line.

[erikun]

Spring Attack, Shot on the Run, and several prestige classes are some of the worst feat tax offenders. I don't think I ever remember to use Dodge, and you probably won't use Mobility much with the above feats. You certainly won't use it much with the Shadowdancer, and the feats for the Dwarven Defender don't do much... not that either of these are good prestige class choices to begin with.

The Two-Weapon Fighting tree really needs to be condensed into one feat, granting the bonuses of all of them (at the appropriate levels).

As for the worst feats? Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, and Improved Sunder. The +4 provided by the feats are nice, so the feats themselves don't need to be removed. However, the fact that you cannot trip, disarm, etc. without the feat is a major problem. It really hampers the combat options of anyone using melee.

Improved Feint is also a problem, as feinting in combat is basically worthless unless you have the feat.


Beyond that, is replacing magic with psionics really that much of a bother? The most difficult aspect I see would be in creating the more unusual wonderous items through psionic crafting feats. I don't see much of a problem otherwise.

[Serenity]

So how would you suggest fixing TWF? I was thinking roll TWF, ITWF, and GTWF into one scaling feat, but what would be the appropriate 'scale points'?

For Weapon Finesse, my thought was making a [Finesse] tag for weapons, which indicates that you may use your Dex instead of Str for rolling to hit, regardless of any other considerations, and have the Weapon Finesse feat allow you to add Dex to damage with Finesse weapons.

[WinceRind]

Definitely Weapon Finesse.

I'm not necessarily saying that you should make it free outright, but perhaps changing the feat to letting you apply dex modifier to damage instead of str while allowing you to use dex instead of str for hit with some or all weapons by default would be a decent way to do it.

And Two-Weapon Fighting, too, the entire feat chain could be changed into something more manageable - maybe 1-2 feats instead of 3 feats for full attack, oversized two-weapon fighting, and whatever else.

Also Dodge + Mobility + Spring attack + other feats linked to them that allow you to attack more times ( i forget) could be compressed into something you can actually take without destroying your character. Like, it would be sensible to combine Dodge and Mobility, and perhaps some other lesser feat together into one, and have Spring Attack cover Spring Attack, Shot on the Run, and a number of feats that allow you to have extra attacks with Spring Attack.

And Weapon Focus/Specialization could be looked on. Could be changed to apply to more then one weapon, if not your entire list.

EDIT: Looks like I'm quite a bit late with some of my suggestions... Sorry. In my defense, I started when there was only 1 reply.

[erikun]

So how would you suggest fixing TWF? I was thinking roll TWF, ITWF, and GTWF into one scaling feat, but what would be the appropriate 'scale points'?
TWF gives you the benefits as listed. Once you have +6 BAB, you get a second off-hand attack, just like with ITWF. Once you have +11 BAB, you get a third off-hand attack, just like with GTWF. Once you have +16 BAB, you get a fourth off-hand attack, just like with Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#perfectTwoWeaponFighting).


For Weapon Finesse, my thought was making a [Finesse] tag for weapons, which indicates that you may use your Dex instead of Str for rolling to hit, regardless of any other considerations, and have the Weapon Finesse feat allow you to add Dex to damage with Finesse weapons.
The first part makes the most sense. It's up to you if you want a feat for adding Dex to damage - it seems kind of redundant, given that most Dex-fighters tend to deal damage through SA.

Archery really needs a damage buff before Dex-fighting, though.

[Serenity]

Spring Attack, Shot on the Run, and several prestige classes are some of the worst feat tax offenders. I don't think I ever remember to use Dodge, and you probably won't use Mobility much with the above feats. You certainly won't use it much with the Shadowdancer, and the feats for the Dwarven Defender don't do much... not that either of these are good prestige class choices to begin with.

The Two-Weapon Fighting tree really needs to be condensed into one feat, granting the bonuses of all of them (at the appropriate levels).

As for the worst feats? Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, and Improved Sunder. The +4 provided by the feats are nice, so the feats themselves don't need to be removed. However, the fact that you cannot trip, disarm, etc. without the feat is a major problem. It really hampers the combat options of anyone using melee.

Improved Feint is also a problem, as feinting in combat is basically worthless unless you have the feat.


Beyond that, is replacing magic with psionics really that much of a bother? The most difficult aspect I see would be in creating the more unusual wonderous items through psionic crafting feats. I don't see much of a problem otherwise.

Oh, replacing the magic system for the PCs is relatively simple...I'll need to homebrew some healing powers, maybe make the Heal skill more powerful.

But it's not just a matter of restricting the PCs options. Arcane and divine magic don't exist. Anything with spell-like abilities or a natural casting progression needs to be reworked, and sometimes there aren't easy equivalencies. I'll probably be creating many of the outsiders in this setting from scratch.

[The Oakenshield]

You should probably take out Natural Spell, it's kind of ridiculous.

[erikun]

But it's not just a matter of restricting the PCs options. Arcane and divine magic don't exist. Anything with spell-like abilities or a natural casting progression needs to be reworked, and sometimes there aren't easy equivalencies. I'll probably be creating many of the outsiders in this setting from scratch.
I still don't see much of a problem. You're just removing a bunch of classes. Heck, you don't even need to mitigate healing that much with some classes like Crusader or Ardent around.

Then again, you don't need to remove something just because it has spell-like abilities - only remove the ones that have spellcasting. A Warlock that gains its powers from pacts with psionic demons with have the same mechanics as the current one. Dragons, with their numerous SLA and spell slots could simply switch to Psion powers or Ardent mantles, and those SLAs are explained just as well as PLAs.

[Serenity]

There's no druid in this setting...and a psionic character could use his powers after assuming an animal form without the aid of a feat. So Natural Spell is out...but because in this setting, it's completely meaningless.

[JKTrickster]

For Weapon Finesse, my thought was making a [Finesse] tag for weapons, which indicates that you may use your Dex instead of Str for rolling to hit, regardless of any other considerations, and have the Weapon Finesse feat allow you to add Dex to damage with Finesse weapons.

I actually think this fix is perfect and that it isn't redundant. Keep it this way.

But at the same time, Archery in DnD just sucks. Just use the Pathfinder version; it's much better and sleeker.

Also another bad feat tax? Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. If you don't have them, you suck. If you do have them, you're a sucker for dumping down two feats. It's seriously not needed.

[chaos_redefined]

He's getting rid of divine spells, so that would mean Natural Spell would be useless. Also, he didn't ask about what feats should be removed for being overpowered, he asked what should be removed as feat taxes.

In any case, WF/WS/GWF/GWS/whatever the phb2 feats are are often considered a waste of a bunch of feats. Merging them into one that scales might help.

[Serenity]

As I said, this setting will be using a 3.5/Pathfinder hybrid. I'm definitely using the Pathfinder skill and feat systems as a base, with further consolidation or use of adapted 3.5 material as I see fit.

As for Weapon Focus and similar, I might leave them. The Warblade can make use of them, as he can shift the weapon they apply to at will, and, while not stellar as normal feats, are decent when gotten as bonus feats from a prestige class or such.

What of Power Attack/Deadly Aim and Combat Expertise? Should we keep these as feats, or make these basic attack action options? Certainly, making Combat Expertise free has the advantage of making it easier to take the various 'Improved [Combat Maneuver]' feats.

[Safety Sword]

For Weapon Finesse, my thought was making a [Finesse] tag for weapons, which indicates that you may use your Dex instead of Str for rolling to hit, regardless of any other considerations, and have the Weapon Finesse feat allow you to add Dex to damage with Finesse weapons.

That's awesome! Only thing I would suggest is that you don't get a choice to use DEX or STR. It should be that you can only use DEX.

Reasoning being that these kind of weapons don't usually benefit from how hard you hit, only the fact that you get through your opponent's defences.

[erikun]

What of Power Attack/Deadly Aim and Combat Expertise? Should we keep these as feats, or make these basic attack action options? Certainly, making Combat Expertise free has the advantage of making it easier to take the various 'Improved [Combat Maneuver]' feats.
Compat Expertise is already "free" in the sense that you can fight defensively without a feat. It isn't very efficient, but then again, Combat Expertise is supposed to represent training which you can apply as needed.

I would recommend, though, allowing Combat Expertise to be used up to your full BAB. It would make it equilivant to Power Attack, and I believe combines it with an Improved Combat Expertise feat found somewhere.

Power Attack is one of the strongest non-magical feats in the game, and I wouldn't recommend making it free to players. (Shock Trooper is the source of real abuse, though.) Perhaps give a "fighting offensively" option to players, similar to fighting defensively: -4 penality on all attacks for a +2 to damage on all attacks in the same round.

I'm not familiar with Deadly Aim.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Another thing about the TWF line - you need more than just TWF, ITWF, and GTWF to make it work. It costs you a feat to be able to attack with both weapons as a standard action, and another to be able to deal full strength damage (or dex, if you go with that option) with both weapons. You might want to roll them all into one feat, or the former into one, and the latter into another.

I've always rolled Precise Shot and Point Blank Shot into one feat, or made Precise Shot prerequisite for Point Blank Shot, instead of the other way around. Also, think about allowing half- or full Dexterity to damage with bows, either normally or with a feat (as is the case for crossbows with Crossbow Sniper). That said, since you're using Pathfinder, Deadly Aim finally makes Archery a usable tactic (something that was very difficult in 3.5, and virtually impossible for mundanes).

Give Swordsages Adaptive Style for free. Seriously, their recovery mechanic is so bad they have one less feat than everyone else, always. It's more important than Natural Spell for Druids or DMM: Persist for Clerics.

I've always changed Improved/Greater Feint as well. As written (in Pathfinder), you will never be able to feint someone flat footed and full attack them, ever. As a swordsman, that bothers me. Even with the highly-abstract version of combat featured in D&D, it is glaringly inaccurate. I'd either make it a Swift Action to feint, and Greater Feint stays as written, or Make it a Swift Action to feint, and a Free Action with Greater Feint.

Another thing you might consider would be creating a feat/stance/maneuver/meld that functions similarly to Travel Devotion. For Psionicists, they might blow their focus to move as a swift action for 1 minute (usable any time or x/day, your choice). I'm not sure how you'd work it with Meldshapers or Martial Initiates, but I'm sure something could be done.

Also, you might consider allowing Psionicists to take Tashalatora for free. It requires some re-working in Pathfinder to make sense anyway, as Monks may freely multiclass (which they couldn't in 3.5) so Monastic Training no longer makes sense as a feat. I'd also allow it to work based on Manifester Level, rather than level in a specific Psionic class.

You should also try and homebrew (or find someone else's homebrew) a class that combines manifesting and maneuvers (like the Ruby Knight Vindicator or Jade Phoenix Mage). And you could also create an Incarnum/ToB theurge class, while you're at it. You don't need to for Psionics/Incarnum though, with the Soul Manifester already existing.

Finally, sweet Crow avatar. And this sounds like a fun campaign, I'd love to play in something like this.

[HunterOfJello]

Adaptive Style for Swordsages. It makes sense as a feat for Warblades and Crusaders, but should be free for Swordsage recovery purposes.

Weapon Finesse should arguably be free. It is for animals, why not people who use light weapons?

I also allow dexterity to damage for crossbows and strength to damage for bows.

Creating feat lines instead of multiple feats makes sense to me. I think Two-Weapon Fighting is a valid feat, but it's higher versions should come along with it.

Eschew Materials for sorcerers. Otherwise, how would any sorcerer ever discover how to cast spells? No sorcerer would ever get to learn how to cast Hail of Stone since they wouldn't know that they have a piece of jade to use as a material component at the time. It makes sense for learning higher level spells from other sources, but not for cheap material components.

[RebelRogue]

Not objecting here, just wondering: if TWF becomes free, what do you give to TWF rangers instead? Assuming the ranger isn't just replaced by some kind of fix, of course.

[Coidzor]

Not objecting here, just wondering: if TWF becomes free, what do you give to TWF rangers instead? Assuming the ranger isn't just replaced by some kind of fix, of course.

Give them a proper animal companion to compensate. :smallamused: Oh wait, that's something that should've been from the get-go.

[The Shadowmind]

The factotum is easy to switch over, Psi-like abilities from the Psion/Wilder list, fully augmented as normal for psi-like abilies. Meta-psionic feats are a bit for complicated.

Improved Overrun is another feat tax that needs to gotten rid of. Without it, it is almost literary wasting an action to move.

Endurance is another feat tax which is almost completely useless on its own, and is for qualify to things like Diehard and PrCs

[Serenity]

Rangers will be getting a maneuver progression in addition to a number of other bonuses; they won't have the Combat Style progression.

[Coidzor]

Toughness as a prerequisite for anything should be axed, unless you're ok with the also bad pre-req of Improved Toughness.

[Runestar]

As for the worst feats? Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, and Improved Sunder. The +4 provided by the feats are nice, so the feats themselves don't need to be removed. However, the fact that you cannot trip, disarm, etc. without the feat is a major problem. It really hampers the combat options of anyone using melee.

Nothing is stopping you from attempting any of these in combat, just that they suck so much that it is generally not worth giving up your attack for this. :smallannoyed:

[doctor_wu]

Merge endurance and die hard although that might be too powerful.

[El Dorado]

+1 to Weapon Finesse and Two-Weapon Fighting suggestions. Roll Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot into a single feat. Power Attack and Combat Expertise could also be made as regular fighting options. I suppose you could do the same for Deadly Aim. Lunge could also be a regular combat option. Not high on the list but fold Snatch Arrows into Deflect Arrows because sometimes it's nice to not waste ammo. :smallwink:

[Runestar]

I think expertise is fine as is, but I don't understand why it has to be a prereq for improved trip. That and the 13int makes it difficult for non-fighters to pick up.

I also think that the higher tier feats should have less steep prereqs. For example, the weapon style feats in complete warrior are neat to have, but a pain to qualify. :smalleek:

[tyckspoon]

Not objecting here, just wondering: if TWF becomes free, what do you give to TWF rangers instead? Assuming the ranger isn't just replaced by some kind of fix, of course.

If I were going to do this, I'd collapse Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, and some of the miscellaneous TWF-enhancing feats (Double Slice, Two-Weapon Rend, Two-Weapon Pounce, etc) into 3 different feats. Then at each Combat Style level the Ranger could select which feat-tree he wanted to gain. Or just make them general Fighter Bonus Feats anyway, so you don't have to go about making up seven different Ranger Combat Style feat sets to cover all the ways people might like to fight.

[Caphi]

Nothing is stopping you from attempting any of these in combat, just that they suck so much that it is generally not worth giving up your attack for this. :smallannoyed:

I've done grapples and some other things without feat support for :plot: reasons before. It's more that combat maneuvers are situational; even if you have the feat, it will actually be useful rarely enough that you might as well take a better feat and suck up the AoO when it does come up.

[Thrawn183]

Power Attack.

[Prowl]

Instead of a pure combat approach to Rangers why not offer them an enhanced version of Tracking which lets you sort out some of the details of events that have happened at a location (like that scene in LotR where Aragorn deciphers Merry & Pippin's escape from the uruk-hai). Beautiful opportunity for the GM to offer expository data.

[stainboy]

You guys already covered my biggest offenders: Weapon Finesse, Dodge/Mobility, and Combat Expertise (at least as a prereq for everything). Here's a few nobody's mentioned:

Point Blank Shot - Fine for rogues and rangers, because they have to keep track of which enemies are within 30' anyway. The problem is that Point Blank Shot is a prerequisite for Precise Shot, which every arcane caster (or psion, in your game) needs if they ever plan to make ranged touch attacks and care about not hitting their friends in the back.

Item Creation Feats - I'm all for requiring some investment to make items, but do we really need three different feats for wands, rods, and staves? I propose a new feat called Craft Stick-Shaped Object. Also, Craft Wondrous Item can make consumables that duplicate spells and wearable items that buff stats, as long as the player carefully avoids describing the items as potions or rings. (E: forgot you were cutting arcane/divine magic, but the psionic item creation feats have the same problems.)

Mounted Anything - The DM can only stage a mounted encounter if every non-spellcaster has mount feats, because otherwise half the party just stands around bored. Mounted Combat is especially broken: it's duct-tape-and-chewing-gum fix for a complicated scaling problem, and it doesn't work. It won't protect a 2-HD horse with a 10-HD rider (the horse's saves still suck, and it still takes half damage on successful save) but it does wonders for a 4-HD dire wolf ridden by a 1-HD goblin.

Anything that Buffs Thrown Weapons - Thrown weapons aren't good for lots of reasons. There are feats that could make them worth using, but they only overcome the problems one at a time. Say you're a fighter, because only high Strength characters have any reason to prefer throwing over bows. To make throwing a reasonable choice over charging into melee, you need Mighty Throw, Power Throw, Quick Draw, Point Blank Shot, and probably Far Shot. That just brings thrown weapons somewhere near the level of your melee attacks, and only because your melee attacks aren't great (you spent all your feats on throwing). There needs to be one entry-level thrown weapon feat that does about five different things.

[Killer Angel]

and the feats for the Dwarven Defender don't do much...

Seconded. An abysmally weak PrC, that requires 3 of the weakest feats around Core?
You should give me a reward for play a DD, not a tax!

[RebelRogue]

Point Blank Shot - Fine for rogues and rangers, because they have to keep track of which enemies are within 30' anyway. The problem is that Point Blank Shot is a prerequisite for Precise Shot, which every arcane caster (or psion, in your game) needs if they ever plan to make ranged touch attacks and care about not hitting their friends in the back.
Why should rangers care particularly about being within 30' of an enemy (except for this feat)? :smallconfused: And the thing about hitting people in the back is a house rule, so since touch AC is generally a borked mechanic anyway, chances are it's a waste of two Feats for a caster (ok, that's sort of your point). If you really want to make sure you hit, have a quickened True Strike or other major to hit boost handy.

[Tetsubo 57]

I would take a look at the setting Everstone. It uses a character point system that lets you buy different abilities. It pretty much completely divorces a lot of the feat chain issues. Since you are basically rebuilding the wheel anyway, might as well see how someone else did it first...

[Psyren]

Psionic Meditation is pretty much mandatory if you want to do anything worthwhile with your focus.

Why is Point Blank Shot needed for everything remotely archery-related :smallannoyed:

Spell Focus, while useful, doesn't seem worth a whole feat to me.

[Amiria]

In Mongoose Publishing's Conan D20 ...

... Weapon Finesse (just called Finesse) is simply an attack option. Conan uses "armor as DR" rules and a good Finesse attack ignores armor.

... Spring Attack and Shot on the Run don't exist. Characters can move before and after a standard action (but drawing AoOs as usual). Some classes get (advanced) Mobility as a class feature.

... almost all full BAB classes (with the exeption of Borderer) and the Pirate start with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. The Borderer sadly carries some baggage from the D&D Ranger, so he can get it as a combat style. The advanced Two-Weapon style feat are still feats.

---

As a house rule in our D&D and Conan groups we merged Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot into one feat.

[Fawsto]

I've been in great lengths of work to rid my game from such...

Seriously, weapon focus, dodge and their cousins? C'mon, unless you are a fighter, you don't have enough feats to burn on crap.

Also, feats should help define your character. I do not believe that a +1 to hit with, lets say, pointy sticks, help define your character somehow.

Being able, however, to invoke the power of pure law to aid you in combat (Law Devotion), or being able to put extra power into your attacks due to your devotion to war (Holy Warrior) or even being able to apply powerful effects to your already amazing spells (any metamagic worth its name), those may help distinguish your character a lot.

When you play D&D, you want your character to be effective. Having to mow through dozens of "less than desireble" feats can destroy awesome character concepts.

See the TWFighter or the Sword and Board. They need heavy investments just to get close to the effectiveness of the simple use of 2handed weapons and power attack.

[Coidzor]

Why should rangers care particularly about being within 30' of an enemy (except for this feat)? :smallconfused:

Probably due to Swift Hunters (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0)

I agree that PBS as a pre-req to all other archery feats is annoyingly pointless.

[randomhero00]

Not sure if anyone has said this yet or not but... imp crit and weapon focus should be free. Maybe not at level one but before level 6. DEFINITELY all the two weapon fighting feats should be combined into one feat. As power attack gives you better damage basically (unless you're precision based, but that's not a fair distinction.)

edit: and +whatever to point blank shot line should be condensed.

Also, toughness should be free, then make an advanced one that's actually worthwhile.

[Vladislav]

How about this:

Dodge:
- This feat provides a flat +1 Dodge bonus to AC. There's no need to designate an opponent.
- Upon gaining this feat, you gain either Mobility or Lightning Reflexes as a bonus feat.

Endurance:
- Upon gaining this feat, you gain either Greater Fortitude or Iron Will as a bonus feat.
(From roleplaying perspective, the choice of feat will determine whether your endurance is of the "I'm so tough I don't care" variety, or "It hurts, but I soldier on" variety)

Shield Focus:
- Upon gaining this feat, you gain Shield Ward and Improved Shield Bash as bonus feats.

Two Weapon Fighting:
- If you have this feat, you gain the benefits of Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Greater Two Weapon Fighting as soon as you qualify for them.

Point Blank Shot:
- Upon gaining this feat, you gain Precise Shot as a bonus feat.

Weapon Focus:
- Upon gaining this feat, you gain Improved Critical with the chosen weapon as a bonus feat.

Toughness:
- Upon gaining this feat, you will gain a bonus +1 hit point whenever you level up, for the rest of your character's career.

Mounted Combat:
- Upon gaining this feat, you gain either Mounted Archery, Ride-by-Attack, or Trample as bonus feats.

Does it make bad feats worthwhile?

[Fawsto]

I have been working on scalonating benefits, based on the characters BAB.

4example: Weapon Focus will net you a +1 bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls at BAB +1 or less. At BAB +5 and every 5 BAB points thereafter this bonus would increase by 1, culminating at +5 at BAB 20.

This means that the actual fighters will receive better or earlier benefits from combat oriented feats.

Well, I guess this more or less works with non-escalonating-numerical-only-bonus feats.

Revamping the feat system needs a lot of work, simply because there is a ton of feats out there.

[erikun]

Nothing is stopping you from attempting any of these in combat, just that they suck so much that it is generally not worth giving up your attack for this. :smallannoyed:
Try grappling a dagger-weilding goblin without Improved Grapple. You are more likely to be killed from the repeated AoOs than actually achieve a pin on the creature. Nevermind attempting it on something that you would actually face in combat.

[stainboy]

Why should rangers care particularly about being within 30' of an enemy (except for this feat)? :smallconfused: And the thing about hitting people in the back is a house rule, so since touch AC is generally a borked mechanic anyway, chances are it's a waste of two Feats for a caster (ok, that's sort of your point). If you really want to make sure you hit, have a quickened True Strike or other major to hit boost handy.

...Huh, I thought a miss due to firing into melee penalty hit a random adjacent target. Am I referring to 3.0 rules?

The problem still stands though. Point Blank Shot is a very small conditional bonus, so it usually gets forgotten like Dodge and that dwarf bonus to hit goblins. And if there's one feat that makes ranged weapons situationally useful for your build, it's not Point Blank Shot and it has Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite.

[Duke of URL]

The feat revisions in Boundless Horizons (see link in my signature) encompass many of the suggestions/fixes described here.

For example, Two-Weapon Fighting is a single feat that grants an equal number of off-hand attacks as main hand attacks. It also allows for an attack with each of the main and off-hand weapons as a standard action.

Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Improved Precise Shot are a single feat that scales with level.

Feats that provide small static bonuses were revised down two paths -- most were changed to scale with level, e.g., at level 20, the bonuses for Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization could be as high as +6/+10. Others were turned into "half-feats", which allow two "half-feats" to be chosen in place of a single normal feat -- feats like Alertness and Skill Focus were grouped here.

[Darrin]

...Huh, I thought a miss due to firing into melee penalty hit a random adjacent target. Am I referring to 3.0 rules?


3.0 had different rules about firing into melee, but I don't recall what happened if you missed. In 3.5, there's a -4 penalty for shooting into melee, and no chance for friendly fire...

*UNLESS* you're making a ranged attack against a target that is *grappling*. Then you roll randomly to see who you hit in the grapple. This isn't mentioned in the grapple rules, it's a footnote on the combat modifiers table that most people never notice.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

what are the worst feat taxes in D&D?No such thing exists.

All these feat tax threads are the same.

zzzzzz

[JonRG]

My DM's fix for Point Blank shot is to have it chain after Precise Shot instead of before. Works nicely.

I'm sort of peeved about Spell Focus: Conjuration. I need it to enter Malconvoker, but I don't want to take a useless feat when there are so many good options out there. :smallfrown:

I tried searching for fixes, but Google failed and the site search hates me. Anyone know of a good, balanced one out there?

[Vladislav]

My DM's fix for Point Blank shot is to have it chain after Precise Shot instead of before. Works nicely.

I'm sort of peeved about Spell Focus: Conjuration. I need it to enter Malconvoker, but I don't want to take a useless feat when there are so many good options out there. :smallfrown:

I tried searching for fixes, but Google failed and the site search hates me. Anyone know of a good, balanced one out there?
Nononono, this conversation is about *combat* feats. Please leave casters out! Casters are so powerful they need all the feat taxes they can get. :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Nononono, this conversation is about *combat* feats. Please leave casters out! Casters are so powerful they need all the feat taxes they can get. :smallbiggrin:

Psionic Meditation is totally superfluous. :smallannoyed:
Without it, you may as well not be able to have a focus at all for all the good you can do with it. And it's not just "casters" either - you need it to make your other psionic feats work, or to be an effective Psywar/Lurk/PsiFist/Warmind. Even bloody Soulknives need it, and all it does is make them suck slightly less.

(If I appear mad at you I apologize, it's more that I'm mad at the system.)

[JonRG]

Nononono, this conversation is about *combat* feats. Please leave casters out! Casters are so powerful they need all the feat taxes they can get. :smallbiggrin:

What about a half-elf caster? :smalltongue:

[WeLoveFireballs]

I think toughness is weak at high levels with +3 hp and weak at low ones with +1 hp per level so i propose they be combined.

My Custom Toughness:+3 hp and +1 hp for every hd beyond 3rd.

[Coidzor]

What about a half-elf caster? :smalltongue:

shh! Those don't exist.

[Zeful]

So how would you suggest fixing TWF? I was thinking roll TWF, ITWF, and GTWF into one scaling feat, but what would be the appropriate 'scale points'?
Simply have the TWF feat give you an additional set of iterative attacks with an off-hand weapon at a penalty.

[JonRG]

shh! Those don't exist.

In PF they're not bad. Not great, but not bad. I was drawn to half-elf for flavor purposes (madness I know). Then I decided to go back to human because of a feat deficit, that and finding a decent picture on dA was like pulling teeth, but the Boyfriend talked me out of it. :smallannoyed:

[Psyren]

In PF they're not bad. Not great, but not bad. I was drawn to half-elf for flavor purposes (madness I know). Then I decided to go back to human because of a feat deficit, that and finding a decent picture on dA was like pulling teeth, but the Boyfriend talked me out of it. :smallannoyed:

Elf with a beard is generally all you need

For female half-elves I'm stumped

[tyckspoon]

I think toughness is weak at high levels with +3 hp and weak at low ones with +1 hp per level so i propose they be combined.

My Custom Toughness:+3 hp and +1 hp for every hd beyond 3rd.

Pathfinder did that. It's still a weak choice, but at least it's not utterly meaningless.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder did that. It's still a weak choice, but at least it's not utterly meaningless.

Pathfinder also uses his dodge fix

Hell, just play Pathfinder :smalltongue:

[cfalcon]

This is a topic close to my heart as I'm going to be running a game soon and I don't like some of the feat chains being so onerous.

1- Power Attack + Cleave. (Named just "Power Attack") While most characters interested in mastering melee weapons will eventually invest in power attack, cleave is a "gotcha" feat. Cleave sounds cool (and is), but it is mostly a "wins more" kind of feat. It's rare that the extra attacks provided are helpful in an encounter-changing sense. Folding it into a good feat is just good policy. I'm planning on removing Great Cleave entirely.

2- Mounted Combat + Shot on the Run + Mounted Archery. (Named just "Mounted Combat"). A fighter with these three feats is pretty well off while mounted, but all of these have been ascribed to real life "low level" people- the SAME warriors, in most cases. So essentially if someone wants to be a mongol hordeling, they need a bunch of levels and a serious feat investment. Given that someone who spends 3 feats on this is going to be super cross when forced into a dungeon, I'd say that this should be one feat.

3- Spirited Charge + Trample (Named "Mounted Mastery" most likely)- These two both give a bonus to getting your horse in people's faces. Spirited Charge is a legit good feat, and Trample is ok but very situational- trampling opponents is done instead of your normal attack sequence, so while it would make logical sense for a warrior to both know how to charge well AND to mow down the weak, it's punishing to a character who has to pick one of the other.

4- Dodge + Mobility (called "Dodge")- Use the Pathfinder Dodge. This gives you a +1 AC at all times, and you don't have to declare it. Declaring it is asinine, especially as anyone playing a fighter at my table is inevitably chugging whiskey. Maybe it's powerful and interesting to the under-21 crowd, but trying to remember this, and having to even bring UP a danmed +1 to AC and discuss it, is lame. Note that I'll probably be making Attacks of Opportunity harder to escape, so mobility will also be more useful.

5- Silent Spell and Still Spell (called "Subtle Spells")- you gain access to both of these feats for one, basically. It's still +2 to put them both on a spell.

6- I need some mergers for archery still.

7- Two Weapon Fighting + Improved Two Weapon Fighting + Greater Two Weapon Fighting + Perfect Two Weapon Fighting (called "Two Weapon Fighting")- I baseline full strength applied to offhand, because this was offensive to my sensibilities back in the 90s and still is today. There is literally no way to justify four damned feats for progressively crappier and crappier extra attacks, only usable on a full attack, and only if you are within waddle range. This has been brought up in this thread. Anyone who is playing these as written either really likes rules as written, or just hates dual wield entirely.

8- Whatever lets you get two weapon attacks as a standard, and whatever lets you get two weapon attacks on an attack of opportunity, called "Dual Strike"- note that even after paying these two feats, you are still only narrowly ahead of a dude with a greatsword who didn't spend a single feat.

9- Single white "Weapon Finesse" seeks partner for stabbings, swashbuckling, and ninjutsu- you need to support ALL of these, future partner!

I'm still looking for more, and will come back to this thread later. Basically, any feat that makes you overly specialized should go along with other feats that follow the same concept.

[JonRG]

Elf with a beard is generally all you need

For female half-elves I'm stumped

Elf wouldn't do anything about my feats, just give me a Dex bump at the expense of Con (which is ungood). Also, I was less going for "person with giant ears" and more "person of mixed origin with non-Tannis levels of angst about it, but yanno, still an anomaly."

(Since I'm not sure I mentioned it, this is Pathfinder, where half-elves get a +2 to any stat and a free Skill Focus. Maybe with some careful editing, I could make that Spell Focus. :smalltongue:)

[AstralFire]

This is a topic close to my heart as I'm going to be running a game soon and I don't like some of the feat chains being so onerous.

1- Power Attack + Cleave. (Named just "Power Attack") While most characters interested in mastering melee weapons will eventually invest in power attack, cleave is a "gotcha" feat. Cleave sounds cool (and is), but it is mostly a "wins more" kind of feat. It's rare that the extra attacks provided are helpful in an encounter-changing sense. Folding it into a good feat is just good policy. I'm planning on removing Great Cleave entirely.

2- Mounted Combat + Shot on the Run + Mounted Archery. (Named just "Mounted Combat"). A fighter with these three feats is pretty well off while mounted, but all of these have been ascribed to real life "low level" people- the SAME warriors, in most cases. So essentially if someone wants to be a mongol hordeling, they need a bunch of levels and a serious feat investment. Given that someone who spends 3 feats on this is going to be super cross when forced into a dungeon, I'd say that this should be one feat.

3- Spirited Charge + Trample (Named "Mounted Mastery" most likely)- These two both give a bonus to getting your horse in people's faces. Spirited Charge is a legit good feat, and Trample is ok but very situational- trampling opponents is done instead of your normal attack sequence, so while it would make logical sense for a warrior to both know how to charge well AND to mow down the weak, it's punishing to a character who has to pick one of the other.

4- Dodge + Mobility (called "Dodge")- Use the Pathfinder Dodge. This gives you a +1 AC at all times, and you don't have to declare it. Declaring it is asinine, especially as anyone playing a fighter at my table is inevitably chugging whiskey. Maybe it's powerful and interesting to the under-21 crowd, but trying to remember this, and having to even bring UP a danmed +1 to AC and discuss it, is lame. Note that I'll probably be making Attacks of Opportunity harder to escape, so mobility will also be more useful.

5- Silent Spell and Still Spell (called "Subtle Spells")- you gain access to both of these feats for one, basically. It's still +2 to put them both on a spell.

6- I need some mergers for archery still.

7- Two Weapon Fighting + Improved Two Weapon Fighting + Greater Two Weapon Fighting + Perfect Two Weapon Fighting (called "Two Weapon Fighting")- I baseline full strength applied to offhand, because this was offensive to my sensibilities back in the 90s and still is today. There is literally no way to justify four damned feats for progressively crappier and crappier extra attacks, only usable on a full attack, and only if you are within waddle range. This has been brought up in this thread. Anyone who is playing these as written either really likes rules as written, or just hates dual wield entirely.

8- Whatever lets you get two weapon attacks as a standard, and whatever lets you get two weapon attacks on an attack of opportunity, called "Dual Strike"- note that even after paying these two feats, you are still only narrowly ahead of a dude with a greatsword who didn't spend a single feat.

9- Single white "Weapon Finesse" seeks partner for stabbings, swashbuckling, and ninjutsu- you need to support ALL of these, future partner!

I'm still looking for more, and will come back to this thread later. Basically, any feat that makes you overly specialized should go along with other feats that follow the same concept.

I think Weapon Finesse, Power Critical and Improved Critical would work together.

I'd bundle the entire Weapon Specialization tree together too, except maybe the Weapon Mastery bit.

[cfalcon]

IMO Improved Critical is worth a feat all by itself. It's one of the few feats I see a lot of melee types take, it's powerful and very bread and butter, and unlike most feats, it's both almost always available, and can sometimes change encounters because critical hits are that good. Additionally it's pretty legit in that it has a +12 BAB requirement, whereas Weapon Finesse should sort of be the thing that the rogue mostly starts with. It could "evolve" into those things later, though.

Power Critical could definitely be folded in to something though, and Weapon Finesse is a good call for it, thank you.

[cfalcon]

My only real issue with Improved Critical is that it's 50% better for weapons with either an improved threat range or a greater multiplier. It's not like other feats are substantially better for, say, a longsword over a rapier- certainly not by 50%.

[AstralFire]

I agree with you for the way I run things (and it seems we are alike!), but the way I hear most people run games, it's like everything is fire immune and undead or wearing +5 fortification, leading me to value it less.

[Ragitsu]

Stealthy, the Feat.

[cfalcon]

Why is stealthy a feat tax? You don't require it to be good at stealth, at least not normally. That, and the two skill focuses all require exorbitant dedication to stealth- but I don't normally see PC rogues feeling like they HAVE to take them.

Generally, a +5 to move silent and hide is not worth 3 feats. In fact, if you convince me that is, my move would be to ban feat bonuses to the stealth (and possibly perception) skills.

As it stands, I like that it lets a truly dedicated character be substantially stealthier than otherwise available- it seems like it's a choice that not every character would make, but some might.

[AstralFire]

Stealthy is more of a bad feat than it is a feat tax, yeah.

[Ragitsu]

Why is stealthy a feat tax? You don't require it to be good at stealth, at least not normally. That, and the two skill focuses all require exorbitant dedication to stealth- but I don't normally see PC rogues feeling like they HAVE to take them.

Generally, a +5 to move silent and hide is not worth 3 feats. In fact, if you convince me that is, my move would be to ban feat bonuses to the stealth (and possibly perception) skills.

As it stands, I like that it lets a truly dedicated character be substantially stealthier than otherwise available- it seems like it's a choice that not every character would make, but some might.

Ah, I meant that Stealthy is prerequisite Feat of other Feats.

[AstralFire]

Ah, I meant that Stealthy is prerequisite Feat of other Feats.

What's it a prereq for? I don't recall anything off-hand. But I don't play 3.x anymore, so my memory is dying.

[cfalcon]

I wanted to QQ more about Mobility, which is totally a feat tax. Attacks of Opportunity quickly become things you tumble through or will hit you regardless of a +4 Dodge bonus. But a lot of good feats require it and probably shouldn't.

[JaronK]

Darkstalker is a total feat tax. Without it, Hide and Move Silently are worthless at even the mid high levels, as everything just automatically sees you. With it, you still need to keep your hide and move silently scores up, but at least stealth is possible.

JaronK

[Endarire]

Remember, feats are major resources!

The average person gets 6 feats over 18 levels. Six!

A feat shouldn't be "I get +1 to something I'll frequently use" nor "I get +3 to something I rarely use."

A feat should be a defining character trait. Almost no concept is too powerful for a feat, especially when compared to Wizard/Cleric/Druid. (Those three set the standard for level-appropriate abilities.)

I agree with Frank and K's Tome Series (http://sites.google.com/site/middendorfproject/frankpdf) that feats should scale. I consider their feats a good start, but they don't cover everything.

This also means not using stock creatures, but you probably knew that already.

HERE (http://antioch.snow-fall.com/files/members/Endarire/DnD/Scaling%20Feats%209%2018%2010.doc) is my version of scaling feats. I consider it about half done. I learned after this that not all feats fit the mold of "benefit immediately, at +1, +6, +11, and +16 BAB/HD."

[Incanur]

I don't understand the idea that archery strictly sucks in 3.5 D&D. It's not the best tactic in a crowded dungeon, granted - but then, it really shouldn't be. Depending on the environment, bows can be plenty dangerous.

[JaronK]

Archery's actually quite good, just feat intensive and requiring of specific items. With Knowledge Devotion, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, and Woodland Archery, plus a Splitting Force Bow, you should have little trouble dealing with the vast majority of threats.

JaronK

[Zeful]

A feat shouldn't be "I get +1 to something I'll frequently use" nor "I get +3 to something I rarely use."

Or if they do (and are true feat taxes) then every feat that has it as a prerequisite needs to make up for that.

[Incanur]

Archery's actually quite good, just feat intensive and requiring of specific items. With Knowledge Devotion, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, and Woodland Archery, plus a Splitting Force Bow, you should have little trouble dealing with the vast majority of threats.

Exactly. The classic cleric archer can also get the job done with fewer feats (I like Holy Warrior for its simplicity). And archery allows for impressive engagement distances, though that can lead to enemies simply throwing up walls and/or running away depending the circumstances.

[Psyren]

The classic cleric archer can also get the job done with fewer feats (I like Holy Warrior for its simplicity).

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6053/clericarcher.jpg

[faceroll]

Power Attack, Two Weapon Fighting chain, Weapon Finesse, Rapid Shot chain, Point Blank Shot, Combat Expertise.

Everyone should get those as soon as they meet the pre-reqs.