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DoctorHobo
2010-11-22, 01:58 AM
Alienist VS Malconvoker! (Unless you know something better)
Discuss.

Additional point of interest, if you're focusing on familiars, which of the Improved Familiars (From the feat in the DMG) are best for holding their own in combat?

Akal Saris
2010-11-22, 02:11 AM
Malconvoker!!!

Seriously though, I've played both, and they are both fun and have awesome roleplaying opportunities. Alienist doesn't lose a CL, so it's about as good as malconvoker until ECL 10, but once malconvoker gets twinned summons and SLAs of non-animal summons become relevant, the alienist gets left behind.

Other interesting options:
Demonologist (Book of Vile Deeds) - sorta OK
Fiendbinder (Tome of Magic) - kind of sucks but cool flavor
Nar Demonbinder (FR book...Unapproachable East?) - very cool class, but again not the best choice

Familiars -
I'm a big fan of the imp out of core. Outside of core, the coure eladrin and musteval (Book of Exalted Deeds) are both adorable and useful, and the winter wolf from Complete Warrior is a handy tank and mount. But why spend a feat on an imp familiar (or whatever else) when you can just bind an imp by level 9?

DoctorHobo
2010-11-22, 02:21 AM
Woooah, double summons. I just noticed that. Yeah, contest totally won.

Thurbane
2010-11-22, 02:38 AM
If you take the Alienist and Fiend Blooded PrCs, your familiar can have the Pseudonatural and Fiendish templates.

In regards to Alienist vs. Malconvoker, Alienist usually gets accused of having a sub-par summons list (loses Outsiders for pseudonatural animals).

DoctorHobo
2010-11-22, 03:05 AM
In which book would I find the fiend blooded class?

Thurbane
2010-11-22, 03:15 AM
In which book would I find the fiend blooded class?
Heroes of Horror.

Psyren
2010-11-22, 03:15 AM
In which book would I find the fiend blooded class?

Heroes of Horror. It's not actually a summoning PrC though - it lends itself more to blasting.

And yeah, avoid Alienist like the plague - it's probably the only fullcasting PrC I can think of that makes you worse at your job.

bannable
2010-11-22, 03:40 AM
Heroes of Horror.

You should note that the PrC can't actually be completed as intended (read: as a sorcerer) pre-epic. It requires Knowledge (the planes) 8 ranks and spontaneous 2nd level arcane spells.Knowledge (the planes) is a cross-class skill for sorcerers.

Psyren
2010-11-22, 03:50 AM
There are easy ways around that - Planar Sorcerer, Human Paragon, a PrC or multiclass dip etc.

bannable
2010-11-22, 03:52 AM
There are easy ways around that - Planar Sorcerer, Human Paragon, a PrC or multiclass dip etc.

None of which are the sorcerer that the PrC was meant to be for. I didn't say it's impossible to complete pre-epic, just that it's impossible to complete as intended pre-epic. It's a fair-warning thing.

Thurbane
2010-11-22, 04:25 PM
None of which are the sorcerer that the PrC was meant to be for. I didn't say it's impossible to complete pre-epic, just that it's impossible to complete as intended pre-epic. It's a fair-warning thing.
True, the sample NPC doesn't qualify...it seems that the author of the PrC mistakenly believed Knowledge (the planes) was on the Sorcerer's skill list. As noted above, it's easy to get it as a class skill though. The feats Knowledge Devotion or Educated will do the trick as well.

DoctorHobo
2010-11-22, 06:08 PM
As far as a Malconvoker goes, who does the job better? A Conjurer or a Sorcerer?

Psyren
2010-11-22, 06:17 PM
As far as a Malconvoker goes, who does the job better? A Conjurer or a Sorcerer?

Pros: Bluff as a class skill helps a lot with the Binding checks. You'll also be focusing on one spell/level, so less spells known isn't as big a drawback.

Cons: You can't enter until 7, the lost caster level hurts more, wizards are smarter (your DM might require knowledge checks to bind certain things), and a focused specialist conjurer still gets more spells than you.

Wizards also get dynamite ACFs for this: Rapid and Enhanced Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#conjurerVariants) are both in the SRD and kick serious ass on a Malconvoker.

Last Laugh
2010-11-22, 06:20 PM
wellll I'm assuming you've read the malconvoker's handbook....
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872758/Mastering_the_Malconvoker

Conjurer is better, abrupt jaunt and the huge versatility of Summon spells (some of them have powerful SLA)
I'm forgetting about the other goodies that summoning focused wizards get... lets stroll over to Unearthed Arcana

Rapid Summoning (Ex): Any time a conjurer using this variant
casts a summon monster spell, its casting time is 1 standard
action rather than 1 full round. (Creatures so summoned can
only take a standard action in the round they are summoned.)
Conjurers using this variant gain the normal benefi ts from enhancing
a summon monster spell with the Quicken Spell feat.
A conjurer using this variant permanently gives up the ability
to obtain a familiar.
Enhanced Summoning (Ex): At 1st level, a conjurer using
this variant gains the Augmented Summoning feat for free
instead of the Scribe Scroll feat.
Spontaneous Summoning (Ex): Conjurers using this variant
can “lose” a prepared spell to cast any summon monster spell of
a lower level. For example, a conjurer who has prepared greater
invisibility (a 4th-level spell) may lose that spell to cast summon
monster I, summon monster II, or summon monster III.
A conjurer using this variant does not gain additional spells
per day for being a specialist wizard.
basically you gain: augment summoning instead of scribe scroll. you gain spontaneous conversion of Summon spells in place of specialist slots (sadface) summon spells are only a single round to cast.

The sorcerer gains..... charisma synergy?

[edit]ninja'd
[eddieeditedit] Removed wrongful info about sacrificing familiar twice

Ernir
2010-11-22, 06:20 PM
As far as a Malconvoker goes, who does the job better? A Conjurer or a Sorcerer?

Conjurer does.

Psyren
2010-11-22, 06:23 PM
Spontaneous Summoning is a trap - you'll want to be preparing the summon spells anyway since most of your bonuses are going towards them, and you give up a spell level on each of them for the privilege. Avoid like the plague.

The other two are great though!

Last Laugh
2010-11-22, 06:24 PM
Spontaneous Summoning is a trap - you'll want to be preparing the summon spells anyway since most of your bonuses are going towards them, and you give up a spell level on each of them for the privilege. Avoid like the plague.

The other two are great though!

Only mentioned it because I thought you had to take all 3?

But you clearly do not....

DoctorHobo
2010-11-22, 06:25 PM
wellll I'm assuming you've read the malconvoker's handbook....
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872758/Mastering_the_Malconvoker


I can't say I have read this. Thanks for the link though! Looks useful.

Akal Saris
2010-11-22, 07:30 PM
Aye, conjurer does it better, as does (cloistered) cleric or even archivist. Cross-class bluff ranks for wizards don't matter since for the first 1 or 2 levels in Malconvoker you can just dump all your skill points into bluff to bring it up to par.

If using Pathfinder material, you could go Abyssal bloodline Sorcerer 15/Malconvoker 5, and summon 3 fiendish or demonic critters for +0 metamagic.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-22, 08:35 PM
Heroes of Horror. It's not actually a summoning PrC though - it lends itself more to blasting.

And yeah, avoid Alienist like the plague - it's probably the only fullcasting PrC I can think of that makes you worse at your job.

Not necesarilly, you still are a full caster, so if played intelligently (as you should play a wizard) you will still outpace any non-full casters. The only feature that has something to your (nerfed) summoning abilities is the pseudonatural template thingy and the extra spell slot. You can still play the class and be a good wizard, just not a summoner.

Endarire
2010-11-22, 10:08 PM
COnjurer Summoner (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8142.0)

Psyren
2010-11-22, 10:45 PM
Not necesarilly, you still are a full caster, so if played intelligently (as you should play a wizard) you will still outpace any non-full casters. The only feature that has something to your (nerfed) summoning abilities is the pseudonatural template thingy and the extra spell slot. You can still play the class and be a good wizard, just not a summoner.

I'm saying it's bad in relative, not absolute terms. A straight wizard who does not PrC at all can outsummon an Alienist. It fails at its basic intent.

Sure you can still mop the floor with the warmage or the fighter, but that doesn't make the PrC good. A Mystic Theurge can beat a fighter too; absolute power is meaningless because it does not factor in opportunity cost.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-22, 10:52 PM
I'm saying it's bad in relative, not absolute terms. A straight wizard who does not PrC at all can outsummon an Alienist. It fails at its basic intent.

Sure you can still mop the floor with the warmage or the fighter, but that doesn't make the PrC good. A Mystic Theurge can beat a fighter too; absolute power is meaningless because it does not factor in opportunity cost.

The thing is, that I don't see why this is a "summoning" prestige class, only two of it's actual class feature have something to do with summoning. This is of course my personal opinion and I don't want to force it on anyone else.

Psyren
2010-11-22, 11:02 PM
The thing is, that I don't see why this is a "summoning" prestige class, only two of it's actual class feature have something to do with summoning. This is of course my personal opinion and I don't want to force it on anyone else.

Why else would you waste a feat on Augment Summoning if you weren't planning to summon anything? :smallconfused:

(Which in turn requires wasting a feat on SF: Conj, which is a prereq for other summoning feats...)

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-22, 11:04 PM
Why else would you waste a feat on Augment Summoning if you weren't planning to summon anything? :smallconfused:

(Which in turn requires wasting a feat on SF: Conj, which is a prereq for other summoning feats...)

:facepalm: I didn't check the pre-requisites before posting, it seems that this just isn't my night.

but now considering that, then the class is even worse, just two class features relating to summoning? ....:smallannoyed:

Gnorman
2010-11-23, 01:12 AM
You'll also want to check these out if you end up going Malconvoker:

The Summoning Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864066/Summoning_Handbook), general advice for summoners of all stripes

Mxzyplk's Malconvoker Campaign Journal (http://mxyzplk.wordpress.com/session-summaries/rise-of-the-runelords/valgrim-the-summoner/) (and his included analysis of various planar binding options)

Practical Demonkeeping (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175570), an in-depth guide to summonable and bindable evil outsiders (full disclosure: I wrote it).

Seatbelt
2010-11-23, 06:58 AM
I'm playing a Malconvoker. Gnorman, Ezekiel Ray owes you a debt of gratitude, and so does his dumb ass fighter son, whom the demons have saved numerous times.

Psyren
2010-11-23, 09:51 AM
:facepalm: I didn't check the pre-requisites before posting, it seems that this just isn't my night.

but now considering that, then the class is even worse, just two class features relating to summoning? ....:smallannoyed:

I want to like Alienist, I really do. The class is just oozing with squick flavor.

The problem is it kills all the utility of summoning (most monsters that have helpful SLAs get banned) and the mini-pseudonatural template just isn't powerful enough to compensate. And summon monster itself was already light on melee ability to begin with.

Interestingly, divine casters can also qualify... but the Wisdom loss makes it even worse.

Thurbane
2010-11-23, 04:22 PM
One fix I've seen suggested is to add some aberrations to their summoning lists to replace the outsiders they lose...

Eldariel
2010-11-23, 05:03 PM
I'm personally a fan of Conjurer 3/Master Conjurer 2/Malconvoker 9/Thaumaturgist 5 shell. Mite toss Archmage 1, Paragnostic Apostle 1, Master Specialist 3 or whatever to the end. Thaumaturgist is quite simple to enter with e.g. Arcane Disciple.

Thaumaturgist comes with few convenient abilities (Contingent Conjuration, most notably) and overall just caps it all out real nicely.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-23, 05:17 PM
One fix I've seen suggested is to add some aberrations to their summoning lists to replace the outsiders they lose...

If you got a Beholder at summon monster IX it would be the best summoner in the game :P Of course you would realistically have to limit it to a CR 11 Aberration, so... An Aboleth for Summon Monster VII and a Destrachaun for Summon Monster VIII? I'm confused; why are the CR's for Summon Monster VII higher then VIII? Weird.

For the final Summon Monster...Kinda stuck with Guardian Naga.

Thurbane
2010-11-23, 05:23 PM
Here's a previous discussion: An Alienist Fix? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149721&highlight=ALIENIST)

Gnorman
2010-11-24, 12:14 AM
A short list of monsters I would add to the Alienist's list:

SMI: Eyeball Beholderkin

SMII: Larval Flayer, Dolgrim, Kython Broodling

SMIII: Choker, Anguillian, Folugub, Lurking Strangler, Skum

SMIV: Ettercap, Kython Juvenile, Grick, Grell, Lurker, Nothic, Rust Monster

SMV: Vivisector, Spectator Beholderkin, Foulwing, Carrion Crawler, Quaraphon

SMVI: Gauth Beholderkin, Adult Kython, Gibbering Mouther, Otyugh, Cloaker, Catoblepas, Hook Horror, Digester

SMVII: Aboleth, Drider, Chuul, Intellect Devourer, Umber Hulk, Director Beholderkin, Eye of the Deep Beholderkin, Destrachan, Kython Impaler

SMVIII: Darkweaver, Deathkiss Beholderkin, Gouger Beholderkin, Balhannoth, Avolakia, Illithid, Kython Slaymaster, Delver, Deepspawn

SMIX: Kython Slaugherking, Urophion, Beholder, Julajimas, Zeugalak, Skybleeder, Ocularon

Keep in mind that this is my personal Summon Monster scale (It's a bit on the more lenient side)

SM I: ½ CR
SM II: 1 CR
SM III: 2 CR
SM IV: 3 CR
SM V: 4-5 CR
SM VI: 5-6 CR
SM VII: 7-8 CR
SM VIII: 9-10 CR
SM IX: 11-13 CR

Tvtyrant
2010-11-24, 01:12 AM
Aboleths are CR 7, they go one further down then that. But I like the list (Beholders tend to dominate it :P)

Gnorman
2010-11-24, 01:13 AM
Aboleths are CR 7, they go one further down then that. But I like the list (Beholders tend to dominate it :P)

Aboleths are under-CR'ed.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-24, 01:15 AM
They also only work in water, which matches the precedent of water summons being stronger then normal ones (Porpoise is far and away the best summon I).

Gnorman
2010-11-24, 01:16 AM
They also only work in water, which matches the precedent of water summons being stronger then normal ones (Porpoise is far and away the best summon I).

Now that is a point I had overlooked.

Thurbane
2010-11-24, 01:57 AM
A dip into Paragnostic Apostle might be worthwhile for a dedicated summoner - it can get creatures you summon Fast Healing, up to 5/round...

Psyren
2010-11-24, 02:15 AM
A dip into Paragnostic Apostle might be worthwhile for a dedicated summoner - it can get creatures you summon Fast Healing, up to 5/round...

The knowledge bonuses also help you learn about new things to summon/bind.

Another route is Exalted Arcanist - this PrC loses a caster level but gives you the Planar Ally line (plus a ton of extra spells known.) Planar Ally can then be used to enter Thaumaturgist :smallsmile:

Since they're each five levels long, a sorcerer can even hit all three!