Elan V. Tarquin on rooftop: Who wins?

[pendell]

I say Tarquin. The last time they encountered each other (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html) Tarquin completely mocked Elan's rapier. I suspect he's got enough armor and magic items to completely nullify Elan's melee attack, just as Kubota did.

I also suspect Elan is playing right into Tarquin's hands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html). Does Tarquin strike you as the kind of guy who would walk out onto this rooftop alone if he didn't anticipate this contingency? Me neither.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Zordrath]

I think Elan's sense for the dramatic is seriously failing him here. Sure, tyrants are best thwarted in a climactic duel, but there's no way you'll have a climactic duel at the beginning of the story arc. Luke couldn't do it at the end of the second act, imagine if he'd fought Vader 10 minutes into 'A New Hope'... :smalltongue:

Tarquin has just been set up as a villain, I highly doubt he'll be defeated already - and by one of the Order's weakest members, to boot. He's smarter than Elan, they fight on Tarquin's turf and odds are Tarquin is a higher level than Elan as well. Unless being defeated by Elan is part of his plan (which it just might be), I can't imagine Tarquin losing.

[Kgw]

I will play safe: the one who the Giant wants to win :smallbiggrin:

[Nilan8888]

I believe Tarquin will win.

However, what the apperances may be at first could be decieving. So at some point in the story there will be another shoe to drop.

But for Tarquin to win in battle now doesn't seem to gain him anything: merely stops him from losing things, like his life. And if he didn't want to lose these things it was a clear and massive oversight to have let slip how those flaming letters were being created when it should have been apparent from the beginning that Elan was not evil. Simply not doing things he has done would have been a far more efficient manner at preventing what might be currently at risk, whether it be his son killing him (itself unlikely) or the loss of his son's love and respect. Tarquin might be wrong about Elan in some respects, but I think it's just that he expects Elan is really as smart as say, Roy.

[Conuly]

Tarquin, obviously. Otherwise the rematch would have Elan losing and Tarquin winning, and that would be utterly unsatisfying for everybody.

[Vladislav]

Tarquin will obviously win .... for now. dun dun DUN!

[nerdnumber1]

I think Elan will have some extra bonuses from the dashing swordsman prestige class on account of the situation which will allow him to hold his own better than one might expect, but Tarquin definitely won't be beaten in this preliminary confrontation.

[pendell]

Thinking this over ... Tarquin might *let* Elan win in a Xanatos-style gambit. He can stage a fall off the rooftop. Or he can simply surrender a la Kubota. Then Elan becomes the new 'king' while Tarquin continues to rule from behind the throne as he always has.


If Elan had accepted Tarquin, then Tarquin could make him the ruler who deposes the Empress. Now, Elan will be the puppet who deposes the Empress AND Tarquin -- exactly as planned -- but Tarquin will still find a way to run things.

So it seems like there's no easy way out of Tarquin's scheme -- "one way or another" Elan will be pivotal to the Empire's destiny.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[aldeayeah]

And if he didn't want to lose these things it was a clear and massive oversight to have let slip how those flaming letters were being created when it should have been apparent from the beginning that Elan was not evil.
I just think he has some crazy low wisdom, empathy, call it what you want.

[Lvl45DM!]

I dunno. Im gunning for Elan puling out all the stops here. His highest level magic, singing epic power ballads and a maelstrom of puns.
GO ELAN!

[pendell]

I dunno. Im gunning for Elan puling out all the stops here. His highest level magic ...


What? He's going to summon an illusion of a female to distract Tarquin?

:smalltongue:

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[DSCrankshaw]

What? He's going to summon an illusion of a female to distract Tarquin?

:smalltongue:

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Heh, it might work. Tarquin's a sucker for a pretty face.

[Lvl45DM!]

I play 1E so i dont know what 3E bards are like, but he took Enor out of action with one spell. Throw enough Illusions around and Tarquin won't be able to hit Elan, even with that BFA. All the while Elan is hitting him whilst powered up from Bardsong and using the puns to augment his damage. Though, I do get the feeling Tarquin has alot more to him than just a big axe.
Still seeing Elan hold his own against a competant opponent would be amazing

[Mjoellnir]

Elan loses a hand and escapes.

[wizuriel]

I could actually see Elan winning and becoming the empire of the land....all according to Tarquin's plan.

[Lvl45DM!]

Elan...the emperor? the loonytunes CG bard? If thats Tarquins plan im gonna smack him for not understanding his son. Oh and if Elan Kills tarquin he doesnt become emperor. There's still a Dragon who is the official ruler

[wumpus]

I believe Tarquin will win.
but I think it's just that he expects Elan is really as smart as say, Roy.

from #758, Tarquin says "as you are the leader of your little band." Tarquin sees what he wants to see, regardless of his normally high stats.

[Cybertoy00]

I predict that neither will win, because something completely random will interrupt the fight.
Remember, half the fun of Order of the Stick is paroding/subverting/inverting overused cliches. I mean, a rooftop sword fight between father and son, one evil one good?
:elan: That's cliche even for THIS comic!

[Nilan8888]

Thinking this over ... Tarquin might *let* Elan win in a Xanatos-style gambit. He can stage a fall off the rooftop. Or he can simply surrender a la Kubota. Then Elan becomes the new 'king' while Tarquin continues to rule from behind the throne as he always has.


If Elan had accepted Tarquin, then Tarquin could make him the ruler who deposes the Empress. Now, Elan will be the puppet who deposes the Empress AND Tarquin -- exactly as planned -- but Tarquin will still find a way to run things.

The only trouble with that is how does he remain in his current position. As it looks now Elan certainly wouldn't kill his Dad if he surrendered... but he wouldn't keep him as an advisor, either.

It occurs to me though, that this could be an elaborate gambit on Tarquin's part to gain EVERYTHING, and that perhaps he wasn't being totally forthcoming with the intention to keep on with his plan.

Maybe this is a move on his part to remove Miron, Malack, and the other people that are in on Tarquin's scheme?

Think about it. Maybe Tarquin wants to keep the 3 Empires going, but he wants to run them all directly and not rely on his old party who are technically as "equal" to this scheme as he is.

So what does he do? He stages this move where Elan will attack him. Tarquin will then surrender and be a willing prisoner. He will expect Elan and his friends to then attempt to overthrow the EoB, which they will succeed in doing. Since the Queen most definately will not want to relinquish the throne, she will be killed. Malack may be killed as well.

Tarquin is perhaps betting, at that point, that Elan will NOT want to take the throne. If he does, Tarquin can begin advising his son on the sly from behind bars, although that would take a long time and is probably not ideal. But if not, Tarquin knows that in knowing his Scheme, Elan and his group will want to overthrow the OTHER two Empires as well at some point. If Drakestooth's origins lie in the EoT or he EoS, so much the better and it will give them reason to go there and "set things right", hopefully killing the other advisors in the process.

Meanwhile the OoTS will have to leave someone in charge while they are gone. Tarquin will be prepared to circumvent whoever this is and re-assert his authority over the EoB from a prison cell while his son and his friends go into the world and kill off the old members of his party.

Because they are adventurers they will probably not stay in THOSE places either. Tarquin may have set mechanisms in place long ago for certain people in the EoT and the EoS to obey his authority in the absence of his old compatriots. At some point he arranges for his release from prison and voila: he emerges from his scheme more powerful than ever before. His hope would then be for Elan to come back and join him in some sort of arrangement of power.

However, that's just a theory.

[Tazar]

And we see Elan screw something up once again.

The smart thing to do would be to just get Roy and Belkar and walk away; regardless of how evil he is, Tarquin's plan for the human kingdoms will benefit them greatly in the long run in terms of increasing stability and reducing loss of life.

So even if Elan wins, everyone loses. :\

[pendell]

The only trouble with that is how does he remain in his current position. As it looks now Elan certainly wouldn't kill his Dad if he surrendered... but he wouldn't keep him as an advisor, either.


Of course not. I would expect Tarquin to go to trial and be sentenced to prison. Then he would run the country from his jail cell. There are precedents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Catedral).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The_Weirdo]

And we see Elan screw something up once again.

The smart thing to do would be to just get Roy and Belkar and walk away; regardless of how evil he is, Tarquin's plan for the human kingdoms will benefit them greatly in the long run in terms of increasing stability and reducing loss of life.

So even if Elan wins, everyone loses. :\

{scrubbed}

[DoctorIllithid]

P{scrubbed the original, scrub the quote}

That's all fine and dandy, but this isn't the history of humanity. This is a stick figure comic based on D&D. If people can shoot fire balls from their hands and travel to other planes of existance, other unlikely things will happen as well.

[The_Weirdo]

That's all fine and dandy, but this isn't the history of humanity. This is a stick figure comic based on D&D. If people can shoot fire balls from their hands and travel to other planes of existance, other unlikely things will happen as well.

Magnificent. So, is there any D&D precedent by which a plan to increase "stability" via LE rule worked and created "the greater good"?

[Nilan8888]

{scrubbed the original, scrub the quote}

At the risk of both offending you and coming close to the edge of the forums rules, I want to postulate that this might depend on the ends that you are referring to.

I would agree that a tyranny will not truly and willingly dissolve itself into a free state or Democracy. It is the will of the rulers that they always retain power, even if they have good intentions: all who wield power are afraid to lose it. This is an even greater axiom than "power corrupts".

They are often either afraid to lose it becuase they enjoy having power, or they are afraid thier successor will "screw up". Either way, they fear its loss.

BUT... there is evidence that would speak to the importance of institutions when the alternative is lawlessness, and to a degree the intent of the instititution matters less than its presence.

I can't really get into specifics on this without running counter to forum rules. Suffice it to say that our most recent examples of Tyranny over the past 300 or more years are not measured against this example, because absolute lawlessness and chaos is rarely seen. We have seen it recently, I suppose, but I leave it to others to understand what examples I might be referring to.

But when we get into older parts of human history, be it Medieval times or that of Aniquity, what you tend to see is not unlike what Tarquin mentions: more people tend to die in places without the rule of law than within them. I'm not saying Tarquin's true motives are in this area -- he might even think they are, but if so that's a self-deception becuase it's clear he's past the point where his brutality is necessary, if it was necessary at all in and of itself. But his phrase "procedure is important" does, believe it or not, contain a ring of truth. There's something to be said for buraucracy after a fashion because with bureaucracy comes stability. And with stability comes reduced rates of deaths when compared to places without stability.

If however you are trying to compare this sort of situation favorably with a modern Democracy seen in many places of the world now, please don't: it's very much clear that a tyranny is only favorable to absolute lawlessness -- it is in now way favorable to almost any other type of stability.

[Heksefatter]

If they fight it through, uninterrupted, I am sure that Tarquin will win.

[The_Weirdo]

Long and polite post snip.

Problem is, even assuming that LE rule is better than CE rule, this may well not be at stake in that continent. Witness the Free City of Doom for example. Its ruler doesn't seem to be the "iron fist" type, quite frankly. Even if it were, this doesn't seem to be a dispute between a LE rule and a CE rule. It seems to be a dispute between three BIG LE rules and many small LE rules. Plus, once Tarquin and the others bite it (and there's not ONE elf in that group of his, who would stay alive for a few centuries), this stability will quite simply disappear. And Tarquin IS smart enough to know that. Whether or not he's self-deceptive enough to pretend not to is another issue.

[pendell]

Holy...

But in the end, no, tyranny DOES NOT WORK. AT ALL. EVER.

I point you to the logic which was given to Haley for sparing Bozzak . Yes, Bozzak was the evil leader of a thieves' guild, but killing him doesn't mean that peace and happiness reign now that the tyrant's dead -- no, it means that there is now a squabble between rival factions. So instead of having one evil tyrant, you've got a thousand evil tyrants fighting a multi-sided civil war.

We can't talk real-world politics, so I'll point to Asimov's Galactic Empire in the Foundation series . In that Empire -- as in many real-world precedents which we can't talk about -- there was never any real precedent for a nation of laws which had liberty. Rather, history was a constant cycle from Warring States to Empire to anarchy to Empire.

For the common citizens, Empire was better than anarchy because although you had jackbooted thugs with high taxes, at least you didn't have rival armies of jackbooted thugs who would take everything that wasn't nailed down to feed the army, then burn what was left to deny it to the enemy. After raping all the women and otherwise having their "fun" , of course.

As a rule -- at least in Asimov's world -- free nations and enlightened liberty are very, very, rare. To be cherished above almost everything and defended at almost any cost. It's not the rule. The rule is tinpot dictatorships or other wannabe men on horseback (spaceship-back?) who establish minor kingdoms until they are themselves swallowed by others, until finally there is only one Empire, until it fragments under the weight of its internal contradictions.

A tyranny in such a world does not work anywhere near as well as a free country. But it still works better than perpetual civil war, anarchy, the war of all against all.

Real-world examples and discussion are available in PM, but not here.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dr.Epic]

Elan is defeat and forced to fight in the gladiator games against Roy. Why? Because it's so cliche like Elan.

[The_Weirdo]

Long and respectful (it's in the sig!) post snip.

I think my answer to Nilan may also answer you. I refer you to it.

[snikrept]

Tarquin mentioned he had Big Plans for Elan regarding the empire, complete with dramatic mood lighting when he said it. I think the only way Elan could win here is if Tarquin lets him, to further some Big Plans.

Further, there's no way this turn of events could possibly be surprising to Tarquin. He correctly identified Elan as a Protagonist like, three panels after they met.


Elan loses a hand and escapes.

Hah! Of course!

[Dr.Epic]

Elan loses a hand and escapes.

That could only happen if Tarquin hadn't told Elan he was his father.

[Nilan8888]

Problem is, even assuming that LE rule is better than CE rule, this may well not be at stake in that continent. Witness the Free City of Doom for example. Its ruler doesn't seem to be the "iron fist" type, quite frankly.

This is true. I make no claim as to the actual state of the Continent.

However it may be that Tarquin referring to it as the "so-called Free City of Doom" might mean that FCoD itself may be in some ways no better than the three Empires... they're merely the losers as opposed to the victors.

But that's speculation on my part. So yes, I would agree: we can't be entirely certain as of now that CE or other types of LE rule is all that the desert subcontninent has available. All we have is Tarquin's word and the general indirect description of an otherwise nameless mapmaker at the moment. Tarquin's word is hardly unbiased, and the mapmaker wasn't making any authoritative claim as to describing all possible politics of the region. Is Tarquin really as humane is it gets out there (as in, not very)? We'll have to wait and see.

[SamEskenazi]

Tarquin will win and he'll cut of Elan's arm in a swift swoop after the reveal of another family secret. That, or he'll announce that he's Elan's father and then realize that everyone already knows that...

[HalfTangible]

Holy...

Listen carefully, from a person born in Brazil, a country which was a dictatorship (an Evil system by definition, Lawful Evil in the case of Brazil) for 20 years - a dictatorship which ended not 30 years ago.

IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY.

Tyranny DOES NOT lead to the "greater good". LE does not lead to, or care about, the greater good. A tyrant may well make excuses - like the one Tarquin is making then and there, like ones that were made all over the world. But in the end, no, tyranny DOES NOT WORK. AT ALL. EVER. It has not worked ONCE in the history of humanity. Do you really think that three LE kingdoms will magically turn LG or LN after the war cycle is over? What of the deaths of the rulers? Do you really think those deaths won't result in the SAME kind of thinking that divided and caused war among the kingdoms in the first place? IT DOES NOT WORK. And even if it ever did, it would not be worth it. At all. EVER. Only a Lawful Evil person would try to forgive himself by claiming the atrocities he commits are "for the greater good". They don't know that the person tortured to death would not become a great scientist or even a politician which might generate some actual union. They don't know that the corrupt system being created will ever get better. Even if they did, THEY DO NOT GET TO CREATE A TYRANNICAL REGIME. FOR ANY REASON. EVER. The "long run" won't EVER matter more than freedom, civil rights, political rights, and good.

It's just that simple a lesson, and you should thank all the gods that your country was seemingly a fairly stable democracy for the last 100 years or more, so that you didn't have to learn it earlier from your own history books.

Correction: Dictatorships are LAWFUL by definition. The other Axis depends entirely on whoever runs the army.


Tarquin mentioned he had Big Plans for Elan regarding the empire, complete with dramatic mood lighting when he said it. I think the only way Elan could win here is if Tarquin lets him, to further some Big Plans.

Further, there's no way this turn of events could possibly be surprising to Tarquin. He correctly identified Elan as a Protagonist like, three panels after they met.



Hah! Of course!
Protagonists can be evil, too. He also said 'have you thwarted any villians yet' though, so it's irrelevant. I'm just sayin'.

[Lvl45DM!]

Villains arent neccessarily evil. I refer you to 8 Bit Theatre. Many villains thwarted, not all of them evil. Drizzl just wanted revenge for his father and Vilbert really didnt do anything at all, and of course Garland. Not to mention Tarquin probably views himself as a hero, thwarting villains who threaten the stablity of his triumvirate empire

[pendell]

Problem is, even assuming that LE rule is better than CE rule, this may well not be at stake in that continent. Witness the Free City of Doom for example. Its ruler doesn't seem to be the "iron fist" type, quite frankly.


What is your evidence with respect to the Free City of Doom? I know nothing about it other than its name. For all I know, it's as violent and nasty a place as the Empire of Blood, or even worse, but not as large.

I played a lot of Sid Meier's Civilization series franchise once upon a time. Any country, no matter how vile, can put on a convincing cry for mercy when its down to its last city. The proof of the pudding is not how they act when at their last gasp, but what they do when they're large and powerful.

Tarquin does have a point in that the entire continent has been an anarchy -- a patchwork of kingdoms forever at war -- for a very long time. If they're not careful, they might very well screw up whatever habitable land there is left. The desert might very well kill them all.

The only power I can see on this continent which might be able to establish an 'enlightened' something-good order throughout the continent is the elves on the north half of the continent. They have chosen instead to seal themselves off. *Why* they should wish to do this instead of establishing a continent-scale Azure City is anyone's guess, but I'll wager that for them the cost of such empire is not worth the expense it would entail. Not to save a bunch of humans and lizardmen from themselves.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[JadeTarisu]

I see this ending one of two ways....

One: Tarquin would not have gotten into this fight to WIN it. Someone already suggested dramatic fall of the rooftop, so that might happen. Elan is being set up to topple the Empire of Blood, and Malack and Tarquin are getting away, to start again elsewhere. Mwahahaha!

OR...

Two: Tarquin is proving a point. He is about to pwn Elan in an attempt to show him what's what and convince him that he's doing the right thing. Maybe.

Personally, I think the former is more likely. Either way, Tarquin knows what he is doing and is very much up to something. The question is, what? :smallconfused:

[Mastikator]

Elan loses a hand and escapes.

That would make the SW reference complete.

[Darkspear]

I think Elan's sense for the dramatic is seriously failing him here. Sure, tyrants are best thwarted in a climactic duel, but there's no way you'll have a climactic duel at the beginning of the story arc. Luke couldn't do it at the end of the second act, imagine if he'd fought Vader 10 minutes into 'A New Hope'... :smalltongue:

Tarquin has just been set up as a villain, I highly doubt he'll be defeated already - and by one of the Order's weakest members, to boot. He's smarter than Elan, they fight on Tarquin's turf and odds are Tarquin is a higher level than Elan as well. Unless being defeated by Elan is part of his plan (which it just might be), I can't imagine Tarquin losing.

Except Tarquin isn't the main villain, he's the obstacle to overcome of a subplot that keeps on dragging on. Kill him and get on with it.

[Zordrath]

He's not the main villain of the entire story, but he is shaping up to be a main antagonist of this particular book/arc. Any bard worth his salt should know he won't be defeated this early.

[The_Weirdo]

Correction: Dictatorships are LAWFUL by definition. The other Axis depends entirely on whoever runs the army.

A dictatorship is a rule by a strongman or an organization (usually the Army) who can and WILL crush opposition via Evil means. A Good or even Neutral dictatorship would end the moment its citizens realized they can protest for democracy unpunished. Moreover, a dictatorship in which the ruler is Chaotic will be Chaotic as well. A dictatorship will inevitably cause undue suffering (usually with the most egregious form of it being torture). Ergo, it is always Evil. A dictatorship won't always establish a stable, structured system. Ergo, it is not always Lawful.

[Nilan8888]

Tarquin does have a point in that the entire continent has been an anarchy -- a patchwork of kingdoms forever at war -- for a very long time. If they're not careful, they might very well screw up whatever habitable land there is left. The desert might very well kill them all.

Actually Pendell, even that might be undercounting the reasons for averting anarchy.

In a real anarchy of the sort I'm thinking of, even the term of "nations at war" is generous, becuase it implies there is a means by which war is declared and that a makeshift stability within the nation is possible in order to declare it.

What I refer to is, if anything, most evident in the "Fallout" games: total collapse of any services, where you can't even really call the forces at play "armies". Those that have proper armies are closer to what Tarquin offers. What really is going on is just roaving gangs doing what they want with no thought to the future themselves, and they merely pull together when united by a common enemy. The average person might greet each day without any more assurance that it will live to see the evening than any other animal that walks the earth, and it's a constant fight for survival.

And that's not even just from semi-organized bullies, but people in the same position as a weaker denizen of the earth. What people might do out of hunger or other less dramatic fights for resources... or might do out of ignorance blaming someone for a turn of events that they would not if they had a better education to understand the world around them... what they might do if one party percieves disrespect from another and knows there is nobody watching to disapprove if they take revenge... much of this sort of stuff was once known to the average human being that walked upon the earth, depending on the era or part of the globe you're looking at.

[AtwasAwamps]

Interesting…

It’s hard to postulate who will win this. As an ex-adventurer with a great deal of time and money, it is possible to assume that Tarquin is magically equipped to an impressive degree. We know that non-core is in play here, so that opens up the Magic Item Compendium and if he is, indeed, evil, there are some doozies in splatbooks that will make him a nasty opponent. He essentially has the wealth of an entire country behind him to gear himself, so we can assume that his armor, at least, is quite nicely enchanted. On top of that, we can assume he is a fairly potent combatant due to the armor he is wearing, which is certainly higher than light.

So, we can assume that Tarquin is most likely a physical fighter type who is closing in on Elan, a Bard/Dashing Swordsman.

Elan, we have seen, is a competent physical fighter, if not to the level of Roy or Belkar. Still, he’s quite decent in a fight, certainly not a slouch anymore. His spell casting is truncated due to levels in Dashing Swordsman, but he’s got plenty of illusions that he can use…and he’s become better at them. In addition, he’s got a lot of ranks in tumble, as proven early on, which means at the very least he’s most likely more agile than Tarquin.

I’d say this can go either way, honestly…we don’t know enough about Tarquin’s capabilities, but we also don’t really know enough about Elan’s. Heck, if for some bizarre reason Elan is packing Bladeweave, this fight could be over in a smattering handful of turns.

[pendell]

A dictatorship is a rule by a strongman or an organization (usually the Army) who can and WILL crush opposition via Evil means. A Good or even Neutral dictatorship would end the moment its citizens realized they can protest for democracy unpunished.

Not necessarily.

Imagine an Azure City LG government and aristocracy ruling over a hobgoblin or goblin (usually LE or CE) populace. This would come about, say, as a result of a crusade. A small band of 600 paladins conquered an entire hobgoblin nation, which surrendered and agreed to live under the paladins. The Paladins become the aristocracy.

Is a LG government required to give democracy to an LE or CE populace? How could it do so and remain LG? It would instantly flip the governments alignment from that of the aristocracy (LG) to that of the majority of the population (CE or LE).

The assumption that dictatorship is always evil comes about when one assumes that the populace is some variant of good. Anyone who has ever seen , say, children playing by themselves without supervision would be justified in questioning that assumption. It is something not everyone -- in fantasy or reality -- subscribes to.

The idea that the human population is basically good is a fundamental assumption underlying democracy. The fundamental assumption that the human race is neutral or evil, and requires good 'playground monitors' to keep them in check is a baseline assumption and justification of all oligarchies and dictatorships. If the populace truly is evil, there is no way an LG environment can occur except by the intervention of a dictatorship or aristocracy.

In D&D, by the book humans are "neutral", so there's a plausible justification for all three forms of government.

ETA: Let me put it this way. There's a lot more freedom in terms of posting subject matter on 4chan then there is here. Where would you rather be? "Freedom" isn't always everything it's cracked up to be.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The MunchKING]

Everyone is overlooking something, Elan has reinforcements even closer than any guards that Tarquin could call.

That's right. Powered up by his tribe of beleivers, and with a brother-god helping the pantheon, Bango will Smite the infidel to save his prophet!!

WIth one beleaver he could smite with only tiny lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html). Now that an island of orcs, along with several less-sane people belave in it, His smiting will truely be a thing to behold. Granted it won't measure up to Thor, but it certainly ought to out-damage Elan (not that THAT is hard).

[FlawedParadigm]

Well Elan can't lose fatally; he still has an Oracle-promised happy ending coming up.

[The_Weirdo]

Not necessarily.

Imagine an Azure City LG government and aristocracy ruling over a hobgoblin or goblin (usually LE or CE) populace. This would come about, say, as a result of a crusade. A small band of 600 paladins conquered an entire hobgoblin nation, which surrendered and agreed to live under the paladins. The Paladins become the aristocracy.

Is a LG government required to give democracy to an LE or CE populace? How could it do so and remain LG? It would instantly flip the governments alignment from that of the aristocracy (LG) to that of the majority of the population (CE or LE).

The assumption that dictatorship is always evil comes about when one assumes that the populace is some variant of good. Anyone who has ever seen , say, children playing by themselves without supervision would be justified in questioning that assumption. It is something not everyone -- in fantasy or reality -- subscribes to.

The idea that the human population is basically good is a fundamental assumption underlying democracy. The fundamental assumption that the human race is neutral or evil, and requires good 'playground monitors' to keep them in check is a baseline assumption and justification of all oligarchies and dictatorships. If the populace truly is evil, there is no way an LG environment can occur except by the intervention of a dictatorship or aristocracy.

In D&D, by the book humans are "neutral", so there's a plausible justification for all three forms of government.

ETA: Let me put it this way. There's a lot more freedom in terms of posting subject matter on 4chan then there is here. Where would you rather be? "Freedom" isn't always everything it's cracked up to be.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Actually, a dictatorship with a Neutral populace (and human populations are Neutral, if only by average) would also be quite Evil. In D&D, granted, that might change (though not by much; witness Start of Darkness).

[pendell]

Actually, a dictatorship with a Neutral populace (and human populations are Neutral, if only by average) would also be quite Evil. In D&D, granted, that might change (though not by much; witness Start of Darkness).


I can only talk in D&D terms because real-world discussion is prohibited.

I would argue rather that the need for order is directly proportional to the evil in the populace. A society of saints needs no government, no playground monitors at all. By contrast, an evil society can only be a "society" if it is also a prison.

I think a "neutral" population in D&D doesn't mean that the population is neutral. It means that there are roughly as many good people as evil people in the population -- IIRC, humans in D&D who actually have a neutral alignment are quite rare, and true neutral is the most rare alignment possible among sentients.

To put it in other terms, a "neutral" society is composed of 50% wolves and 50% sheep.

That's not an argument against dictatorship. That's an argument for dictatorship, or at least oligarchy. Without some form of control, the wolves will devour the sheep and the society will become evil.

To my mind dictatorship -- in D&D -- would be justified WRT a neutral or an evil population, because the evil elements in that population require that level of control. Dictatorship or oligarchy are unnecessary in a population that is primarily good, because people will do the right thing without needing laws to make them do so. No need for posted speed limits because few will drive in an unsafe fashion.

And while humans may be generally neutral in OOTS, it is also true that specific human nations have alignments. Azure City is LG. The Empire of Blood is LE -- and there was serious argument on this board that most of the population was LE. That wasn't an argument I accepted, but if it was true -- why shouldn't lawful evil people be ruled by a lawful evil government?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Procyonpi]

Tarquin has just been set up as a villain, I highly doubt he'll be defeated already - and by one of the Order's weakest members, to boot. He's smarter than Elan, they fight on Tarquin's turf and odds are Tarquin is a higher level than Elan as well. Unless being defeated by Elan is part of his plan (which it just might be), I can't imagine Tarquin losing.

I'd say that Tarquin wins THIS duel, but Elan will eventually defeat him in one-on-one combat. This comic strip works on rule of funny and rule of drama, not game mechanics.

[Zordrath]

Sure, this certainly won't be last time Tarquin and Elan face each other. Perhaps Nale will even be involved next time. But regardless of whether you judge by rule of drama or the game rules, I don't see much hope of Elan winning this one.

[Leolo]

Although it would be cool to see Elan win - and after this to see tarquin ally with Nale to beat Elan. :smallbiggrin:

[Procyonpi]

Sure, this certainly won't be last time Tarquin and Elan face each other. Perhaps Nale will even be involved next time. But regardless of whether you judge by rule of drama or the game rules, I don't see much hope of Elan winning this one.

My point there wasn't perfectly clear. My comment about rule of drama had more to do with your assertion that Elan being one of the weakest members of the order mattered, rather than the general idea that Tarquin will win this match.

[Math_Mage]

My first reaction to the comic was "Good job finally catching on, Elan, too bad a roflstomp is in the offing."

[NegativeFifteen]

Elan's got this. Tarquin is unarmed and last time they fought, Elan wasn't making any puns.

[The_Weirdo]

I can only talk in D&D terms because real-world discussion is prohibited.

I would argue rather that the need for order is directly proportional to the evil in the populace. A society of saints needs no government, no playground monitors at all. By contrast, an evil society can only be a "society" if it is also a prison.

I think a "neutral" population in D&D doesn't mean that the population is neutral. It means that there are roughly as many good people as evil people in the population -- IIRC, humans in D&D who actually have a neutral alignment are quite rare, and true neutral is the most rare alignment possible among sentients.

To put it in other terms, a "neutral" society is composed of 50% wolves and 50% sheep.

That's not an argument against dictatorship. That's an argument for dictatorship, or at least oligarchy. Without some form of control, the wolves will devour the sheep and the society will become evil.

To my mind dictatorship -- in D&D -- would be justified WRT a neutral or an evil population, because the evil elements in that population require that level of control. Dictatorship or oligarchy are unnecessary in a population that is primarily good, because people will do the right thing without needing laws to make them do so. No need for posted speed limits because few will drive in an unsafe fashion.

And while humans may be generally neutral in OOTS, it is also true that specific human nations have alignments. Azure City is LG. The Empire of Blood is LE -- and there was serious argument on this board that most of the population was LE. That wasn't an argument I accepted, but if it was true -- why shouldn't lawful evil people be ruled by a lawful evil government?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

You do realize that there is a difference between lack of a dictatorship and full-on lawlessness, even in D&D, right? A government may indeed be necessary to keep wolves off of sheeps, but a Dictatorship per se isn't. As for LE being ruled by LE, the question becomes "chicken or the egg".

[Lord Vukodlak]

*Most governments in D&D are dictatorships, its the world of Kings, Queens and Emperors.*


I also suspect Elan is playing right into Tarquin's hands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html). Does Tarquin strike you as the kind of guy who would walk out onto this rooftop alone if he didn't anticipate this contingency? Me neither.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
Your absolutely right, in all probability he didn't even ignite the slaves[why waste good resources] he's just provoking Elan into attacking him.
So he can fake losing and continue the cycle of kingdoms rising and falling he explained to Elan five minutes ago.

[The_Weirdo]

*Most governments in D&D are dictatorships, its the world of Kings, Queens and Emperors.*

This IS a fair point, granted, but it's got more to do with the setting than with any societal considerations by the authors, I'd assume...

[Morph Bark]

Elan is defeat and forced to fight in the gladiator games against Roy. Why? Because it's so cliche like Elan.

This made me think back to Attack of the Clones and wonder if there will be any references to the prequel trilogy also, or if they will happen in the third OotS prequel book.

[Strife Warzeal]

Heh, it might work. Tarquin's a sucker for a pretty face.

Especially if they have nice perky... eyes let's all pretend I was going to say eyes.

[Martok]

In a one-on-one duel? Tarquin wins easily.

He almost certainly has quite a few levels on Elan (due to his greater age and experience). Even if he's just a pure fighter -- and that's in no way confirmed -- he still has a huge advantage over his son.



Of course, as others have already pointed out, the wild card is the possibility of Tarquin allowing Elan to beat him for Machiavellian/Xanatos-type reasons of his own.

[mistformsquirrl]

I say Tarquin, easily.

There are several reasons:

1) Tarquin stands a high chance of being a fighter. Fighter vs Bard in melee combat - even a bard with a nice prestige class like Elan - is probably going to lose. (I grant a bard with clever use of spells could win; but Elan and "clever" don't usually go together.)

2) Level and items - I could be wrong but Tarquin strikes me as being quite high, at least as high as Elan; possibly Epic even. Regardless, level is probably not on Elan's side. Equipment, likewise... Elan's an adventuring Bard... Tarquin is the power-behind-the-power for 3 different nations. If he can't get himself some powerful items with that kind of funding and access, who can?

3) Most important of all - Drama! Unless I'm mis-reading the situation badly, this isn't Act 3 of this arc yet... I see this as late Act 2, meaning Elan has to lose to set up tension for the real final showdown. Kind of like Luke and Vader in Bespin.

That said, this is OOTs, so anything could still happen really >.>

[pendell]

You do realize that there is a difference between lack of a dictatorship and full-on lawlessness, even in D&D, right? A government may indeed be necessary to keep wolves off of sheeps, but a Dictatorship per se isn't. As for LE being ruled by LE, the question becomes "chicken or the egg".

Quite right. My point is threefold:

1) It's not a simple binary of "good" and "bad". Sometimes it's a matter of "better" or "worse". A free country with liberty and law is better than dictatorship -- 10000x better -- but a dictatorship is still better than anarchy. It isn't always possible to go directly from anarchy to a free country. Case in point from fiction: Ankh-Morpork. The Patrician is a tyrant, but he's tolerated because he's a bazillion times better than Lord Snapcase. It would be better still if they were a "free" country, but there's no obvious path to there from where Ankh-Morpork is now.

2) "Democracy" , at least in fiction, is not in all times and all places synonymous with Freedom. I would contend that the people of Lancre in Discworld possess more freedom than the people of Serenity's Alliance, even though Lancre is a monarchy while the Alliance is a parliamentary democracy. The government of Lancre, though a monarchy, is very weak and possesses very little ability to interfere in the lives of ordinary citizens. By contrast, the people of the Alliance have all kinds of laws -- don't run, don't walk -- and a government which deliberately slips drugs into the water supply to control the population. Something that would be flatly impossible in Lancre, where the governmental bureaucracy consists of one person.

So who is the more "free"? The monarchy with no powers or the democratic government with limitless powers?

3) "Democracy" assumes civic maturity among the citizens of the country. What would Greysky city look like if it was a democracy, with President Bozzak and senator Crystal?

In governments and in individuals, the ability to be self-governing implies a certain willingness to accept responsibility and the maturity to do the same. If a society has not reached that point of development, it will not be able to institute a democracy regardless of desire, any more than children can. Regrettably, sentients do not always become adults just because their bodies age. Those who will not or cannot be responsible for themselves will have others to govern and be responsible for them. That's what prisons are for. Sometimes a whole nation can become a prison.

That's not by any means the final goal or end state. But it is sometimes a necessary phase in development.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Conuly]

Except Tarquin isn't the main villain, he's the obstacle to overcome of a subplot that keeps on dragging on. Kill him and get on with it.

No, but he is a thematically important villain - Elan's father! - and I wouldn't be surprised if he heads up an official side in this conflict. None of the sides are going to be wiped out until the end.

[JRKlein]

Elan's still not very good in combat, so in a one-way between him and Tarquin, my money's on Tarquin. But I'm thinking perhaps Nale will get involved somehow and make this a three-way fight.

[Kish]

Except Tarquin isn't the main villain, he's the obstacle to overcome of a subplot that keeps on dragging on. Kill him and get on with it.
Yeah, who cares about Elan's father? Rich should have the final battle with Xykon next strip!

[RecklessFable]

Tarquin chops Elan's hand off and then Durkon has to windwalk them out of there. Elan, of course, will be hanging from a spire.

[Dr.Epic]

This made me think back to Attack of the Clones and wonder if there will be any references to the prequel trilogy also, or if they will happen in the third OotS prequel book.

The next book will be called The Phantom Ten-sided Dice.

Menace starts with a similar sound as ten, and ends with a similar sound as dice. It's not a big a stretch as some of the other puns.

Also, I'm joking with the possible title. Hope it's not really the next book's name.

[Morithias]

A tyranny in such a world does not work anywhere near as well as a free country. But it still works better than perpetual civil war, anarchy, the war of all against all.

Real-world examples and discussion are available in PM, but not here.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I would like to point out the original concept of anarchy was a system without leaders, where the people were so moral, cared for each other, and were fair that they didn't need leaders or laws. What is commonly called 'anarchy' is shall we say wrongfully termed. I don't know what exactly one would call it. I'm tempted "chaos" but I'm not sure if that's wise on a Dnd Forum. lol

[Flickerdart]

Clearly

Elan will be winning...until Nale shows up and father and son must join forces to win against a greater evil! Dun dun dunnn!

[Procyonpi]

This made me think back to Attack of the Clones and wonder if there will be any references to the prequel trilogy also, or if they will happen in the third OotS prequel book.

Considering the only reference to the prequel trilogy was a disparaging use of the term Padawan, I sorta doubt it.

[The_Weirdo]

Respectful snip

Well, again, the problem becomes "chicken or the egg": People that cannot govern themselves without a Lawful Evil ruler will spawn a Lawful Evil ruler that makes sure - intentionally or not - that the people cannot govern themselves without a Lawful Evil ruler. And a Lawful Evil ruler governing people will make sure - intentionally or not - that people cannot govern themselves without a Lawful Evil ruler.

Also note that, in our world, no dictatorship ever came to power to be a transition from "lawlessness" to "democracy" - much though a few claimed to do so - and that I can think of no examples in fiction of a dictatorship bridging this gap either (there may be, but I can't find one). In our world, rather, a dictatorship was always a transition government between "democracy" and "dictatorship", between "lawlessness" and "dictatorship" or between "dictatorship" and "more dictatorship" - in short, between "x" and "dictatorship". Dictators were removed from power only through violence or - veiled or not - threat thereof. It's also how they come to power, with an excuse or not. That leaves one with two assumptions. Either Tarquin is actually planning on doing something unprecedented and has the ability to do so (an assumption made a bit flimsier because of what he himself said about ruling with an iron fist) or he doesn't really care about the well-being of anyone in this continent, no matter what he tells others or himself. The former possibility could explain the "greater good" argument, but, by Tarquin's own words, seems to be on quite shaky ground to me. The latter possibility explains most dictators in fiction and all in real life, but is quite inviable for a "greater good" argument indeed.

[TriForce]

Villains arent neccessarily evil. I refer you to 8 Bit Theatre. Many villains thwarted, not all of them evil. Drizzl just wanted revenge for his father and Vilbert really didnt do anything at all, and of course Garland. Not to mention Tarquin probably views himself as a hero, thwarting villains who threaten the stablity of his triumvirate empire

no no no and NO, you do NOT get to use 8-bit theatre as a example when talking about good and evil. that webcomic, hilarious and great as it might be, is probably one great parodie on the entire concept of good/evil, except for fighter and white mage, just about every single character there has done stuff that could qualify them as chaotic evil, its just that messed up a world :)

[Necrus Philius]

Tarquin is in a no lose situation as he KNOWS that elan still needs to know gerards whereabouts.

So should elan get the upperhand tarquin is in no danger of dying as he only needs to remind elan of this.

[rewinn]

... the ability to be self-governing implies a certain willingness to accept responsibility and the maturity to do the same. If a society has not reached that point of development, it will not be able to institute a democracy regardless of desire, any more than children can....

This "maturity" occurs naturally in humanity. We find it in societies at the most primitive technological level; lacking perhaps the elaborate structures of an Electoral College and Pocket Vetos known to some "advanced" democracies, but fundamentally democratic organizations. See Iroquois Confederacy, Saga-Era Iceland.


Tarquin is in a no lose situation as he KNOWS that elan still needs to know gerards whereabouts.

So should elan get the upperhand tarquin is in no danger of dying as he only needs to remind elan of this.

Oh nice opportunity for further drama!

[The MunchKING]

*Most governments in D&D are dictatorships, its the world of Kings, Queens and Emperors.*

Those are toitally monarchies.

[M.A.D]

I think Elan's sense for the dramatic is seriously failing him here. Sure, tyrants are best thwarted in a climactic duel, but there's no way you'll have a climactic duel at the beginning of the story arc.

This isn't the beginning of the story arc. This sub-arc about Elan's father ends in 2 more strips, as stated in Strip #732 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0732.html), by which time they would have left the city (burning, preferably) to find Gerards


Except Tarquin isn't the main villain, he's the obstacle to overcome of a subplot that keeps on dragging on. Kill him and get on with it.

I'm not sure Elan is either capable of willing to kill his dad, but we can expect the fight to end with the next strip, or Strip #762 if Haley joins the fight and make Tarquin spill some infos on the way. They'll make their escape on the same strip.


Tarquin is in a no lose situation as he KNOWS that elan still needs to know gerards whereabouts.

So should elan get the upperhand tarquin is in no danger of dying as he only needs to remind elan of this.

Haley is not there just for show y'know. She's only one stair away, and she can make a man talk even without knowing that he was talking. I say the chances of her joining the fight and then interrogate Terquin is better than Nale's at the very least.

[Lvl45DM!]

no no no and NO, you do NOT get to use 8-bit theatre as a example when talking about good and evil. that webcomic, hilarious and great as it might be, is probably one great parodie on the entire concept of good/evil, except for fighter and white mage, just about every single character there has done stuff that could qualify them as chaotic evil, its just that messed up a world :)

Fine I refer you to Watchmen where the villain is the one who stops doomsday and the hero is a homophobic misogynistic sociopathic manchild. Just sayin, there is no guarantee that Tarquin assumed Elan was good just cos he is a protagonist who has thwarted villains

[Morph Bark]

The next book will be called The Phantom Ten-sided Dice.

Menace starts with a similar sound as ten, and ends with a similar sound as dice. It's not a big a stretch as some of the other puns.

Also, I'm joking with the possible title. Hope it's not really the next book's name.

I think I will forever more call d10s tenacious dice.

Would be an awesome band name if you could avoid copyright suits though.

[leakingpen]

I believe Tarquin will win.

However, what the apperances may be at first could be decieving. So at some point in the story there will be another shoe to drop.

But for Tarquin to win in battle now doesn't seem to gain him anything: merely stops him from losing things, like his life. And if he didn't want to lose these things it was a clear and massive oversight to have let slip how those flaming letters were being created when it should have been apparent from the beginning that Elan was not evil. Simply not doing things he has done would have been a far more efficient manner at preventing what might be currently at risk, whether it be his son killing him (itself unlikely) or the loss of his son's love and respect. Tarquin might be wrong about Elan in some respects, but I think it's just that he expects Elan is really as smart as say, Roy.

The thing is, he really DOESN'T believe that he is evil. He is being matter of fact about everything. Its the behavior pattern that made sense, and he was sure that his son was smart enough to think the same way. He's learned that he was wrong. No slip, he thought Elan would think the burning people letters were cool. Err... hot. you know what i mean!

[Souhiro]

Obiously, this can't be Tarquin's end. It's a climatic battle on a rooftop, but that would ruin the climatic battle on the arena of the circus.

I place my bet on Elan's flee, and Tarquin & Son gaining respective scars.

[pendell]

This "maturity" occurs naturally in humanity. We find it in societies at the most primitive technological level; lacking perhaps the elaborate structures of an Electoral College and Pocket Vetos known to some "advanced" democracies, but fundamentally democratic organizations. See Iroquois Confederacy, Saga-Era Iceland.



The logical conclusion is that Conan the Barbarian was right; Civilization infantilizes human beings by allowing them to get away with behavior patterns that would get them killed in the jungle. Pleasure and luxury breed indolence and folly, decadent weak men just begging to be thrown to the monster of the week by some crazed tyrant. Stern environments breed black-haired Cimmerians who trod the jeweled thrones of earth beneath their sandaled feet.

Makes for good sword-and-sorcery novels, not sure about that philosophy's applicability elsewhere. :smallamused:

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dr.Epic]

I think I will forever more call d10s tenacious dice.

Would be an awesome band name if you could avoid copyright suits though.

Weird Al just got his next album title.

[Ranylyn]

Those are toitally monarchies.

A monarchy and a dictatorship are the same in essence.You may want to bring up many real world examples of the royal family being figureheads with the real powers being elected (England and Japan come to mind immediately) but that's no longer a Monarchy, but a democracy.

When it all boils down to it, there are three government systems: Anarchy (no government) Dictatorship (Someone the people have no say in) or Democracy (a leader chosen by the people.) This is of course before you get into various political views, like Capitalism or Communism, which are actually semi relevant, but not yet.

I'd also like to apologize in advance, as I'm likely to offend some people. My posts aren't aimed at anyone, just at governments. However, far too many people these days are way too gung-ho about democracy and thinking anything else is inherently evil and wrong. These people will likely hate me but I'm talking from a purely logical standpoint. I enjoy my democracy, thank you.



In a perfect world, Anarchy would in fact be ideal. If people could agree as a collective whole and rely on morals, rather than law, to guide their lives, Anarchy would truly be a utopia's way.

Dictatorships, on the other hand, are also not inherently evil. A dictator can be benevolent, just like an elected official can be corrupt. History tells of more than one good king, and what is a dictator but royalty without the bloodline? Heck, I bet most royal families started off as mere landowners, thousands of years ago. Many will bring up: "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." Few dictators could refrain from using their power for themselves, sure, but it doesn't make all their subjects evil.

Democracy. Now, I'm Canadian and I love our democracy, but I also see its flaws, rather glaringly. The leaders wear their intentions on their sleeves during elections, and it looks like this: "I don't care what I have planned, I just want to win this election, so rather than defend my stances, I'll attack my opponents instead." All the groups vying for power, scheming, and using people to get what they want, primarily for personal gain... isn't this basically the definition of Chaotic Evil?

Then you get into other political views. Communism, at its very core, is the very definition of Lawful Good. Everyone contributes to society and everyone receives equal pay for it. No fighting over wealth, as everyone is equal. In theory, it is actually nearly perfect. Its one flaw, however, is fatal: "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." Communism still needs someone at the head to call the shots, after all.


tl;dr: People take the whole "democracy is good" thing way too seriously. EVERY government has MASSIVE flaws, but are a much needed evil, considering human nature. Governments are ALL Lawful in nature, as their very purpose is to establish law and maintain order. As such, I'll argue that every government is, at its core, Lawful Neutral.

[pendell]

When it all boils down to it, there are three government systems: Anarchy (no government) Dictatorship (Someone the people have no say in) or Democracy (a leader chosen by the people.) This is of course before you get into various political views, like Capitalism or Communism, which are actually semi relevant, but not yet.


You forgot Aristocracy: Government by a privileged class of people. Heinlein's Starship Troopers has an example of that: Only those who had completed a term of federal service were allowed to vote or hold public office. He also proposed a system in his essays where any voter entering a voting booth would have to solve a quadratic equation before pulling the lever.

The three classic forms of government are: Government by the One (Monarchy), government by the few (Aristocracy), and government by all (democracy). Each system, classically, has a perverted and nasty form: Monarchy becomes Tyranny, Aristocracy becomes Oligarchy, and democracy becomes -- let's see -- I guess the best way to put it would be "mob rule" or "tyranny of the majority".

All three forms, and mixtures of the above, have been tried throughout history and each has their particular proponents and critics. In D&D terms, this means that each of the three types has a mechanism such that it could govern a lawful-something society. Thus, an LG government-by-one would be a "monarchy", while an LE government-by-one would be a tyranny.

I suspect this is why some of our communication in this thread is at cross-purposes. In fiction, there are some examples of good governments-by-one (King Arthur) and bad governments-by-many (Madame Defarge in Tale of Two Cities). So it's quite hard to say that any one particular form, or indeed a mixture of forms, is better than another at all times and all places. Some have gone so far as to say "For forms of government let fools contest; Whate'er is best administer'd is best: "

This PSA has been brought to you by Aristotle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_%28Aristotle%29) and Alexander Pope (http://theotherpages.org/poems/pope-e3.html). Reading of old books FTW!

ETA: Please note that I have done the best I can to steer the discussion
away from real world politics and towards discussion of such things in the context of fiction and especially D&D. I would urge those of you reading who wish to discuss this to do likewise, lest the Mod Squad come in and ruin our day.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[megabyter5]

Elan...the emperor? the loonytunes CG bard? If thats Tarquins plan im gonna smack him for not understanding his son. Oh and if Elan Kills tarquin he doesnt become emperor. There's still a Dragon who is the official ruler

Nah, I'm sure Malack gets his comeuppance too. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDragon) :smalltongue:


That would make the circle complete.

Fixed it for you. Now, I am the Mastikator...

[TheVsw]

I think he's going to try to capture Tarquin because that's just what Elan does. As V pointed out when V fried Kubota, Elan always tries to take powerful villains captive and they cause trouble later.

[Kish]

You know...I hope Tarquin gets the worst possible fate for him: A death completely lacking drama or acknowledgment.

Swatted like a bug by Xykon would be about right.

[Ron Miel]

The next book will be called [I]The Phantom Ten-sided Dice.


I'm thinking maybe Pa Wars.

[Felixc-91]

You know...I hope Tarquin gets the worst possible fate for him: A death completely lacking drama or acknowledgment.

Swatted like a bug by Xykon would be about right.
i totally support this chain of events, it would an awesomely anticlimactic end for him... perfect.

[Felixc-91]

unless T fails on purpose, or some one else manages to help Elan, E will lose. if he knew that exact right bard spells, and uses them perfectly, then he might have a chance. but that really doesn't sound like Elan to me.

[Prowl]

At least we can look forward to Ewoks soon. I hope Belkar kills a lot of 'em!

[Orzel]

Well... Elan loses.
Surprise?
Nope.

[Ave]

Elan loses a hand and escapes.

This.

They already executed part of the Vader script. Why would they stop here.

[hamishspence]

If it's going to work that way, it might be that in the first panel of the next strip, we see Elan's hand drop to the ground.

Rapiers aren't slashing weapons- but that can be handwaved, since real rapiers have edges.

Sorry- daggers.

Still, if they end up in a rematch, a la Return of the Jedi- Tarquin's hand might be severed too.

[MReav]

So... does Tarquin have Dashing Swordsman (or its villainous equivalent) too? Maybe he's a fallen Dashing Swordsman?

[hamishspence]

Or it could be a generic PrC that can be taken by people of any alignment.

It's homebrew- so we won't be able to find out by searching the splatbooks.

[pendell]

So... does Tarquin have Dashing Swordsman (or its villainous equivalent) too? Maybe he's a fallen Dashing Swordsman?

I suspect the villainous equivalent of Dashing Swordsman is Magnificent Bastard. If Tarquin doesn't have it, they should invent it just for him.

Hmm ... this implies Tarquin has high charisma but low strength, requiring the need for punnage to increase his damage potential. Makes sense. Elan is his genetic offspring, so possibly they have similar stat blocks, adjusted for age.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lvl45DM!]

Hey Elan blocked all his Dad's attacks except the last. The disparity, though obviously there, isnt that big

[Prowl]

Hey Elan blocked all his Dad's attacks except the last. The disparity, though obviously there, isnt that big

Actually, it looks like Tarquin did nothing but defend and parry until the disarm move.

I'd wager the disparity is large enough that Tarquin would be a challenge for the whole OOtS combined. Tarquin is very likely to be epic level himself... he certainly is in an epic-level environment, where the fates of nations and even a whole continent are decided.

[Lvl45DM!]

no no look at the blurry bits, there are points where the dagger was closer to Elan. And also the fact that half a continent rests on his actions has nothing to do with his level, just his Charisma and Intelligence.

[Souhiro]

Well, it has been a GREAT battle, and pure pwnage for Tarquin.
About the puns... I've started to use them, being a PC or DM.

My players don't know that answering a pun with a better pun gives them a +1 or +5 "inspiration" bonus to that hit, or a penilty of -1 for Really Bad Ones, but better players have started to use them.

Tarquin can be just answering because He Is His Parent!

[Morph Bark]

I suspect the villainous equivalent of Dashing Swordsman is Magnificent Bastard. If Tarquin doesn't have it, they should invent it just for him.

While Tarquin is magnificent, we don't know if he's a bastard or not. :smallwink:

[The_Weirdo]

Actually, it looks like Tarquin did nothing but defend and parry until the disarm move.

I'd wager the disparity is large enough that Tarquin would be a challenge for the whole OOtS combined. Tarquin is very likely to be epic level himself... he certainly is in an epic-level environment, where the fates of nations and even a whole continent are decided.

Not all rulers become epic, even those that make big decisions.

[RndmNumGen]

Not all rulers become epic, even those that make big decisions.

Yep. Shojo was only 14th level, after all.

[Felixc-91]

Hey Elan blocked all his Dad's attacks except the last. The disparity, though obviously there, isn't that big its quite possible that T was using something called full defencive action, you know not trying to attack and spending all his energy on defence... its also possible that he is using that action and that he's much high level, he shows no sign of strain, at any point...

[Felixc-91]

Yep. Shojo was only 14th level, after all. true, but Shojo inherited his title, Tarquin got his threw trickery, deception, and many actual battles.

[Dark Matter]

Not all rulers become epic, even those that make big decisions.Rulers who successfully conquer the world (which admittedly he hasn't done quite yet) fit the bill.

From the sound of it he was pretty high level before he got started on this "power behind the throwns" business.

[137beth]

its quite possible that T was using something called full defencive action, you know not trying to attack and spending all his energy on defence... its also possible that he is using that action and that he's much high level, he shows no sign of strain, at any point...

Total defense gives only a +4 bonus to AC, and it takes a standard action. Given that he was attacking, he couldn't have been using total defense.

Fighting defensively gives you a +2 bonus to AC and a -4 penalty to attack rolls.

If he had combat expertise, he could have taken a -5 penalty to all attacks and a +5 bonus to AC. He might have done this just to make the battle take longer, for dramatic reasons. However, if he were epic, he would have had a substantially larger attack roll than Elan could block, and it would have been very unlikely that Elan could have made so many parries, even if Tarquin had a -5 penalty from combat expertise.

And if he were an epic character, he would almost certainly have more tools at his disposal than simply whacking Elan with a dagger.

[Fishman]

Each system, classically, has a perverted and nasty form: Monarchy becomes Tyranny, Aristocracy becomes Oligarchy, and democracy becomes -- let's see -- I guess the best way to put it would be "mob rule" or "tyranny of the majority".Pretty much all forms of human government become oligarchies. No dictator, no matter how powerful, can do everything himself. He has to keep SOME people appeased in order to stay in power, and this clique forms the oligarchy. An aristocracy is an oligarchy by nature. Similarly, democracy devolves into a oligarchic machine: A party of politicians, bureaucrats, and lobbyists that keeps itself in power through voter manipulation. It is clear that humans are exceptionally bad at governing themselves, and the true government of the future is Robocracy.

In any case, "Tyranny" originally just meant someone who seized power. It did not include any value judgements on whether he was good or bad. That association only came later.

[rewinn]

And if he were an epic character, he would almost certainly have more tools at his disposal than simply whacking Elan with a dagger.
On the evidence, he doesn't NEED anything more than a dagger. We've seen him duck or dodge enough attacks to reasonably conclude that he's got something more than ordinary combat abilities.

Plus, T may well have other weapons stashed away in the "non-drawn" part of the panel - the same place Elan's rapier was before he drew it. Tarquin seems to be an excellent planner.

[Leecros]

Yep. Shojo was only 14th level, after all.

true, but Shojo inherited his title, Tarquin got his threw trickery, deception, and many actual battles.

This.


I would not be surprised at all to discover that Tarquin was 18-19th level at least

[Lvl45DM!]

Trickery and deception just means a high CHA and he's a general so he doesn't fight directly so no XP for him

[MReav]

The true government of the future is Robocracy.

You say that now, but when some enterprising young hacker puts some out of control spyware on the robonet the glorious robocracy will come crashing down in a flood of porno ads.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

from #758, Tarquin says "as you are the leader of your little band." Tarquin sees what he wants to see, regardless of his normally high stats.

Well, as far as what Tarquin's seen, isn't Elan acting as the leader? He certainly seems to have taken a leadership role, in Roy's absence.

As to the OP's question: Tarquin will win. I don't mean to say he'll necessarily be successful in the fight, but he's going to come off the better for whatever happens. This is my feeling.

[Nevereatcars]

Elan can lose (almost definitely will), but I do not believe that he will lose his hand. The quotes were kinda funny, but this isn't the OotS Star Wars parody arc. Burlew isn't going to copy that. It would be lame and unoriginal. Instead, make TARQUIN lose a hand.

[Felixc-91]

Trickery and deception just means a high CHA and he's a general so he doesn't fight directly so no XP for him are you kidding me? you get XP for overcoming obstacles, violence is not the only way.

[Felixc-91]

Total defense gives only a +4 bonus to AC, and it takes a standard action. Given that he was attacking, he couldn't have been using total defense.

Fighting defensively gives you a +2 bonus to AC and a -4 penalty to attack rolls.

If he had combat expertise, he could have taken a -5 penalty to all attacks and a +5 bonus to AC. He might have done this just to make the battle take longer, for dramatic reasons. However, if he were epic, he would have had a substantially larger attack roll than Elan could block, and it would have been very unlikely that Elan could have made so many parries, even if Tarquin had a -5 penalty from combat expertise.

And if he were an epic character, he would almost certainly have more tools at his disposal than simply whacking Elan with a dagger. :smallamused:he wasn't attacking, he didn't land a single hit on Elan. he was simply parrying E's blows.

[theinsulabot]

no no look at the blurry bits, there are points where the dagger was closer to Elan. And also the fact that half a continent rests on his actions has nothing to do with his level, just his Charisma and Intelligence.

I am not seeing it, there are points where tarquin looks like he simply blocked earlier in elan's thrust, so his weapon is closer to elan's body, but judging from the way elan is always pushing forward while tarquin is pretty relaxed and laid back, I dont think he ever attacked elan at all.

[Damaris]

Well, as far as what Tarquin's seen, isn't Elan acting as the leader? He certainly seems to have taken a leadership role, in Roy's absence.

I'd say Haley is probably the leader in Roy's absence again. (For instances, Elan asked her if they could stay with Tarquin for a while – for all Tarquin knows he just doesn't want to make the decision without her, but I think that in fact Elan does it partly because he does see her as the leader.) Or maybe I'm missing something - where do you see Elan having taken a leadership role?

[Lvl45DM!]

The dagger is pointing at Elan, thrusting at him. it was an attack. it was a lazy and overconfident nonserious attack. But it was an attack

[pendell]

The dagger is pointing at Elan, thrusting at him. it was an attack. it was a lazy and overconfident nonserious attack. But it was an attack

If it was a "nonserious" attack, I suggest it may have been a "feint" rather than an attack, if that's mechanically possible in D&D. It's a significant part of real fencing. A "feint" would be consistent with Total Defense, I think.

Besides, if Tarquin was really serious about killing Elan, he could have done it in the last frame rather than simply disarm him.

He could probably have also ended the fight instantly by using Power Word: Guards! Then had Elan feed the Empress. The fact that he went to great lengths to disarm Elan rather than kill him -- the fact that he chose to face him down personally rather than call in his guards -- suggest that he wants Elan alive.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lvl45DM!]

Or he's testing Elan to see how good he is?
Rofl Power Word: Guards!

[Dark Matter]

Neither of them have ANY wounds. Elan wanted to hurt T, T didn't want to hurt Elan.

The question isn't whether T won, the question is "could he have taken Elan's sword at any time?"

[Elf Ranger]

Here's what I think will happen:
Elan will fight Tarquin, lose, and be taken to the EOB. She will then tell Tarquin to kill Elan, and Tarquin will not be able to do it, and instead kills the EOB.

[Swordpriest]

Here's what I think will happen:
Elan will fight Tarquin, lose, and be taken to the EOB. She will then tell Tarquin to kill Elan, and Tarquin will not be able to do it, and instead kills the EOB.

I really, really hope not. I'd prefer to read OotS here, not a direct knock-off of Star Wars. There's already been far too much Star Wars stuff in this arc. Enough, already! :smallannoyed:

[Kish]

It seems fairly unlikely if only because the Empress of Blood doesn't tell Tarquin what to do, rather the other way around.

[Morph Bark]

are you kidding me? you get XP for overcoming obstacles, violence is not the only way.

And considering they get roleplaying XP in the OotS-verse, Tarquin no doubt gets a lot of it.

[King of Nowhere]

Damn, if tarquin is getting xp for roleplaying, he m,ust be well over Xykon.:smalleek:

[Lvl45DM!]

Only PC's can get roleplaying XP!
and considering the obstacles he's facing nowadays are of his own design primarily, like the battle with the Weepies, i would award him very little XP if any

[137beth]

@above: correct, most of Tarquin's xp would have had to come before he gained the control he has now.

@dark matter: You are jumping to the conclusion that Tarquin is way more powerful than Elan and that he "could have" killed Elan in the first round, but doesn't want to hurt him.
Tarquin could have been using combat expertise to fight defensively, which is not the same as intentionally not killing Elan. Fighting defensively in a sword duel wouldn't guarantee that Elan would survive, it would make the battle take longer, which adds to the drama.
Actually, your initial observation that "Neither of them have ANY wounds" is not necessarily true. The panels did not show any blows actually landing, but not every move is shown in-panel.

In fact, if we assume you are right and Tarquin is epic level but doesn't want to kill Elan, then you have to explain why he waited so long to disarm, rather than disarming/Sundering on the first round of combat.

[Dalek-K]

Its not enough to beat someone, you must totally destroy. Not only does he make elan think he is using the Dashing Swordsman ability but with a dagger he has bested him with swordplay.

Evil baddies tend to do this a lot actually...

[Felixc-91]

@dark matter: You are jumping to the conclusion that Tarquin is way more powerful than Elan and that he "could have" killed Elan in the first round, but doesn't want to hurt him.
Tarquin could have been using combat expertise to fight defensively, which is not the same as intentionally not killing Elan. Fighting defensively in a sword duel wouldn't guarantee that Elan would survive, it would make the battle take longer, which adds to the drama.
Actually, your initial observation that "Neither of them have ANY wounds" is not necessarily true. The panels did not show any blows actually landing, but not every move is shown in-panel.

In fact, if we assume you are right and Tarquin is epic level but doesn't want to kill Elan, then you have to explain why he waited so long to disarm, rather than disarming/Sundering on the first round of combat. look at the last panel, neither has battle damage. as to your why, it obvious, DRAMA! if he disarmed him on the first round, it would have lacked all dramatic tension. its also possible that he weighted until Elan was distracted so it would be easy and there be no chance of him screwing up and ruining the scene.

[Susil]

Bear in mind what Rich draws doesn't always involve a literal interpretation of the DnD combat rules anyway. If memory serves, the wording in the PHB is along the lines of, if you exceed the target's AC, you 'land a damaging blow'. The idea of Armour Class doesn't really draw any distinction between the different ways of avoiding attacks (at least not til you're flat footed etc) even though there can be very different ways of reaching the same value.

So, if a characters' attack roll fell too low, it could be visually represented by an outright miss, a weapon being deflected by armour, or (as is the case here) by the opponent parrying. All are reasonable ways to interpret the mechanics.

Plus, as others have mentioned, there are a few rules that increase AC that are understood as parrying. Also, is there a statted out dashing swordsman anywhere? It might make sense for it to have a CHA based AC bonus when using a parrying technique? By all the puns Tarquin is spouting, I'd be very surprised if he didn't have a similar, if not the same Presige Class.

[Swordpriest]

One slight boost to the "Tarquin is a Dashing Swordsman" theory ....

In the last panel, he speaks a pun while disarming Elan, but Elan has no pun in response.

Is it just coincidence that Tarquin succeeds at a Disarm attempt at the precise moment when he gets a pun out (giving him his Charisma bonus to the roll, if he is a DS), and Elan doesn't (and therefore loses his Charisma bonus)?

Seems like it might be significant to me.

[rewinn]

One slight boost to the "Tarquin is a Dashing Swordsman" theory ....

In the last panel, he speaks a pun while disarming Elan, but Elan has no pun in response.

Is it just coincidence that Tarquin succeeds at a Disarm attempt at the precise moment when he gets a pun out (giving him his Charisma bonus to the roll, if he is a DS), and Elan doesn't (and therefore loses his Charisma bonus)?

Seems like it might be significant to me.It would seems likely that higher level of Dashing Swordsfolk (...assuming lizardfolk can do it took ...) would acquire special abilities additional to mere attack bonusses.

We've seem Tarquin dodge the Ambassador's attacks barehanded while taunting her, which is pretty dashing in an evil way. And now we've seen T 1disarm E with an argument of superficial plausibility but ultimately flawed logic.

So the power elements for Dashing Swordsfolk might include:

*Pun
*Taunt
*Superficial Logic
*Catchphrase

Scientists have yet to discover the link between these and the boost one gets from having an actual name.

Note neither T nor E have deployed a personal catchphrase yet but Julio specifically mentioned it. I predict that in their ultimate conflict (yet to come many strips in the future) E will defeat T only after discovering his catchphrase!)

[NegativeFifteen]

To all you "Tarquin is a dashing swordsman" types, factor in this:
For dashing swordsman abilities to work, you have to be wielding a rapier. (I think. Check the arc, I'm pretty sure its in there.)

[Swordpriest]

To all you "Tarquin is a dashing swordsman" types, factor in this:
For dashing swordsman abilities to work, you have to be wielding a rapier. (I think. Check the arc, I'm pretty sure its in there.)

Have to is an assumption which may or may not be correct. Just because Julio said that to someone wielding a rapier does not necessarily mean all other weapons are banned. We have no writeup of the class.

[NegativeFifteen]

He said "You can substitute your charisma bonus for a strength bonus when you wield a rapier". The way its said implies that you NEED to be wielding a rapier, but then again, I don't know a way to put it that would allow flexibility in terms of what weapons you could use.

[Swordpriest]

Well, I'm still half-inclined (or more) to agree, it's only the last panel that gives me any doubts (i.e. Tarquin uses a pun, Elan doesn't, Tarquin gets the advantage).

[Kish]

He said "You can substitute your charisma bonus for a strength bonus when you wield a rapier". The way its said implies that you NEED to be wielding a rapier, but then again, I don't know a way to put it that would allow flexibility in terms of what weapons you could use.
"You can substitute your Charisma bonus for a Strength bonus in melee." No need to name a weapon. No reason to name a rapier, if "wielding a rapier" isn't a requirement for the effect.

[SaintRidley]

Of course, that could be in reference specifically to attacking. There could well be an ability that grants charisma to armour class when using a parrying dagger and spouting puns as well. Equally appropriate. Logical for the class.