At first, there was only Law & Chaos

[feltex]

I wonder how many readers are aware that in pre first edition AD&D the alignment system did not have good and evil, only law and chaos. In fact the Rod of Seven Parts is a throwback to that era.

How much of strip 760 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html) is aimed at poking fun at online alignment discussions and current rules systems, and how much is a tip of the hat to the game's early days?

[hamishspence]

Interesting speculation.

That said, I don't see much that is a direct nod to Law being associated with generally good behaviour and Chaos associated with generally evil behaviour- which was the way 0th edition tended to phrase it.

[wumpus]

I think plenty of us from that era know that. At least the first two basic D&D boxes had only those alignments (and neutral). TSR also published a "Best of the Dragon #1" which was a throwback that showed the progression from 0e D&D to 1e AD&D (highly recommended if you can find it anywhere near the cover price).

[Raging Gene Ray]

In fact the Rod of Seven Parts is a throwback to that era.


Rod of Seven Parts?

[hamishspence]

An artifact in Arms & Equipment Guide.

In Fiendish Codex 1, which suggests that originally Law Vs Chaos was the main conflict of the multiverse, it says the Lawful Wind Dukes, wielded it against the Chaotic demons.

[zyborg]

So, the Roguelike ADoM's alignment system is pretty much like that of the original D&D?

[Raging Gene Ray]

In Fiendish Codex 1, which suggests that originally Law Vs Chaos was the main conflict of the multiverse, it says the Lawful Wind Dukes, wielded it against the Chaotic demons.

...And Asmodeus was an Angel who created the second schism because of his methods of dealing with Chaos. Of course, now there's the question of where the Eladrin/Azata (CG outsiders) came from. I'd like to hear that story.

[hamishspence]

...And Asmodeus was an Angel who created the second schism because of his methods of dealing with Chaos.

That's Fiendish Codex 2.

Where the Eladrin came from is an interesting question though- especially since, according to FC1, they were the ones who launched a massive attack on the demons, shortly after the big battle on The Fields of Pesh, where the Rod was shattered for the first time.

In the eladrin attack, the Queen of Chaos, and other obyriths, were driven into the depths of the Abyss.

At the same time, the tanar'ri minions of the obyriths, launched an uprising, overthrowing them and taking the Abyss for their own.

[Nilan8888]

That said, I don't see much that is a direct nod to Law being associated with generally good behaviour and Chaos associated with generally evil behaviour- which was the way 0th edition tended to phrase it.

I agree, I don't think there's been an intentional nod there.

Although I would LOVE to see it. I remember when I saw those first alignment breakdowns and thinking how un-intuitive it seemed to be. Oh those hedonistic years of the 60s and 70s... :smallwink:

Although just a thought, I wonder if it had anything to do with the possible popularity of Zelazny's AMBER series, which was being written around that time. Amber was much more concerned with the fundamentals of Law and Chaos than Good and Evil per se, since the characters seemed to swing between the two, even the protagonist.

Just a shot in the Dark, though.

[Elfey]

Although just a thought, I wonder if it had anything to do with the possible popularity of Zelazny's AMBER series, which was being written around that time. Amber was much more concerned with the fundamentals of Law and Chaos than Good and Evil per se, since the characters seemed to swing between the two, even the protagonist.

Just a shot in the Dark, though.

Nah, see The Elric Saga. In music video form here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCxL3-Fl7bM (Yes this is by the Blue Oyster Cult, but the Lyrics are by Michael Morcock, the Author of the Saga)

See in the Saga you have both Law and Order. But neither is good . If Chaos wins, we have no form or shape. If the Law wins, we have no options no possibilities, just a flat white plain where humans are too messy to live.

Law and Chaos are but basic themes, and the Law can be cruel while Chaos Kind.

[Nilan8888]

The reason I was thinking Amber was becuase Order and Chaos are used as generalities, and the forces of Order (Amber) are nominally "the good guys" -- they're not really 'GOOD' so to speak, but good and evil is sort of an esoteric question becuase the series is really about Order/Law and Chaos. Good and Evil might not be entirely beside the point, but there are few characters to whom scruples seem an absolute, and the main character is not among them.

The forces of Chaos in AMBER actually are mentioned as possibly being just as 'good' in some ways as the forces fo Order. But at least in the first series you never really see it, so it doesn't matter (plus some of the Chaos characters do some rather evil things anyway so maybe that doesn't even matter).

I think Moorcock might outgun Zelanzy in terms of popularity and overall influence, so you got me there. But the way the original D&D just concerned itself with Law and Chaos and the way they used the language made me think of Amber, and how good and evil was kinda hanging around, but not really the stuff of what the world building logistics were about. Most of the characters could be measured in terms of "more evil" and "less evil"... the protagonist being neither the least evil (or even second or third least evil), nor by far not the most evil.

[Wrecan]

An artifact in Arms & Equipment Guide.

In Fiendish Codex 1, which suggests that originally Law Vs Chaos was the main conflict of the multiverse, it says the Lawful Wind Dukes, wielded it against the Chaotic demons.

Actually, the Rod goes back farther than that. It appears in the original 1st edition Dungeon Master's Guide, where it is a relic of the lawful Wind Dukes of Aaqa against the forces of Chaos in a primordial battle. It won the day, but was shattered into seven parts and scattered through the multiverse, waiting for some intrepid adventurers to put it back together...

[hamishspence]

Actually, the Rod goes back farther than that.

True- just citing the most recent sources with the Rod itself, and the details of how it was used.

[Dr.Epic]

Only Law & Chaos?:smallconfused:

So they only had this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvJiYrRcfQo) and this* (http://www.finalfantasy500.com/500/done/chaos_blackorb.jpg)?

*That's Chaos from FFI.

[hamishspence]

For a quote from 0th ed:


Law: Lawful characters believe that obeying rules is the natural way of life. They always try to tell the truth. They are fair to others and keep their promises. Lawful characters put the good of the group above their own welfare and generally behave in a manner most people would consider good.

Chaos: Chaotic characters are the opposite of lawful characters. They believe life is random. They think luck rules the world and laws are made to be broken. To them, keeping promises is not important, and telling lies can be fun- even useful! They think they are more important than anybody else and generally behave in a manner most people would consider bad.

Neutrality: Neutral characters believe there should be a balance between law and chaos. To them, the individual is important, but so is the group. They tend to treat others as others treat them, and usually look out for themselves first. They expect others to do the same. They prefer to rely on their own abilities, rarely trusting their fate to luck or another character.