Will Elan end up ruling the Western Continent?

[paladinofshojo]

I see that after Elan defeats his father, there will be a power vacuum in the Western Continent, causing a bloody world war for the right to control it. No doubt his dying father will point that out and then condemn him to spend his life bringing back order to the Continent. Plus, who better than Elan to rule, he has both right of succession and conquest (well if he has to kill his father that is).

[The MunchKING]

He may have the "right" depending on the laws, but he has neither the brains or temperment for it. He'd be just another pawn.

[Dr.Epic]

Serious answer: No. Just no. Elan ruling anything. How will that end good?

Funny answer; Yes! Of course! He could convert the entire continent to Banjo. The entire Western Pantheon overthrown by a puppet.

[The Pilgrim]

Chances are good that it's all a set-up of Tarquin to enthrone a new fool in substitution of the Red Dragoness.

[BridgeCity]

. . . Plus, who better than Elan to rule, he has both right of succession and conquest (well if he has to kill his father that is).

Elan doesn't have the right by succession. Tarquin pulls the strings, sure, but he is not the actual ruler. The Emperess is, and so her offspring/family would be the ones with succession rights.

[Mastikator]

Tarquin could dye his hair, kill the empress, undye it and say he saw Elan kill and overthrow her and become the new emperor.

Of course, that won't happen now that Elan will either defeat Tarquin, or be defeated.

[Dr.Epic]

Tarquin could dye his hair, kill the empress, undye it and say he saw Elan kill and overthrow her and become the new emperor.

Tarquin said that being the official ruler is too much trouble and it's better to just be the puppet master to the emperor/empress/king/queen/etc.

[Swordpriest]

Tarquin said that being the official ruler is too much trouble and it's better to just be the puppet master to the emperor/empress/king/queen/etc.

Exactly, which is why Mastikator just suggested a way for Tarquin to set up Elan as the new puppet without needing Elan to do anything.

[kossuth's_spark]

Yes, he could set up Elan as his new puppet, but until the whole sword-fight, Tarquin didn't seem to want to do anything to him other than make up for lost time, plus Elan's his son, would he really do that kind of thing to his own flesh and blood?

[hobbitkniver]

Elan could never run a partly let alone a continent. He could leave it to another good aligned character who he trusted to straighten it out. None come to mind immediately.

[Felixc-91]

Elan could never run a partly let alone a continent. He could leave it to another good aligned character who he trusted to straighten it out. None come to mind immediately.idk, he seems to have a fairly high opinion of Roy... and he might actually be able to pull it off... ok, maybe not but he's the best i can think of (who's still alive).

[factotum]

Of course he won't. There are more important things for Elan to be doing, like stopping an epic lich releasing a god-killing abomination--remember that?

[Manga Shoggoth]

Elan could never run a partly let alone a continent. He could leave it to another good aligned character who he trusted to straighten it out. None come to mind immediately.

There's always Ian Starshine. We know he was a "good" (as in well regarded) leader of the guild in Greysky city. Who also knows the truth of Tarquin's plans...

[SoC175]

he has both right of succession and conquest (well if he has to kill his father that is).
Since Tarquin technically has no right to rule whatsoever, Elan would have neither right of succession nor right of conquest

[TheBlackShadow]

I think this is what Tarquin has in mind for him, at least. Whether or not it actually happens is another matter altogether. We know that Elan has to have a happy ending, but I always envisioned him settling down somewhere quiet with Haley, maybe opening a tavern in some village somewhere, having kids and composing some sort of epic poem about their adventures. Ruling a vast empire doesn't really seem like their kind of thing, even if they do manage to turn the Western Continent into a much nicer place.

So, two theories of mine as to what will happen next (they're not mutually exclusive).

Theory #1: This entire plot arc has been Tarquin's way of testing Elan's suitability as his successor. By standing up to his father and attempting to take him into custody despite having no authority to do so, Elan has shown himself to be, to one extent or another, his father's son, since they are both apparently willing to take the law into their own hands for what they perceive as "the greater good". Furthermore, once the desert nations of the Western Continent are unified and consolidated, a Good leader will be in a position to turn the place around. Tarquin's plan is to test whether Elan is willing and able to do this.

Theory #2: Tarquin's plans will be ruined by a combination of Elan being "too Good" to go along with his nefarious plans, and Nale's reappearance to take back what he perceives as his. Either Nale manages to ruin proceedings all on his own (I suspect he's taken a PrC of his own by now, perhaps some sort of "Card-Carrying Villain" getup, I'm seeing top hats, black capes, face masks, walking canes), or he and Elan team up to take on Tarquin. One way or another, for better or for worse (I see some character development coming up, somehow), Nale will end up ruling the Western Continent instead, while Elan retains his happy ending.

Of course, those are just my crazy theories, and probably don't have much of a chance.

[Kish]

Nale couldn't rule a school picnic...

[Dalek-K]

Serious answer: No. Just no. Elan ruling anything. How will that end good?

Funny answer; Yes! Of course! He could convert the entire continent to Banjo. The entire Western Pantheon overthrown by a puppet.

Oh god... YES! :D

The Dark One's army vs. Banjo's Army ... Fricken Epic

[Mr. Snuggles]

Oh god... YES! :D

The Dark One's army vs. Banjo's Army ... Fricken Epic
I'll do you one better: Banjo raised to the Pantheon based on his millions of supporters and their Holy Jihad against the unbelievers...

[Dark One, Tiamat, Rat God]: Who's the new guy?

[Dalek-K]

The Dark One is the Goblin God ... I think that is what Prime Minister/Jyrix(?)/O-Chul's pin cushion called him

[lindorm]

I see that after Elan defeats his father, there will be a power vacuum in the Western Continent, causing a bloody world war for the right to control it.
Not as long as Malack (and to a lesser extent, the Empress) is around.
And it would only be a power vacuum in EoB, prompting the Empire of Sweat or Tears to move in and take control. Not to mention the ten or so other countries (not counting the elves) on the continent.

[Swordpriest]

Actually, there are 5 more people around who might have something to say about Elan trying to take over. All of Tarquin's old adventuring party, specifically.

[AstralFire]

Ian Starshine is a good candidate; he could do Tarquin's shell game.

[derfenrirwolv]

Elan's Charisma, Haley's brains... that could be a powerful combination for a happy ending

[paladinofshojo]

Not as long as Malack (and to a lesser extent, the Empress) is around.
And it would only be a power vacuum in EoB, prompting the Empire of Sweat or Tears to move in and take control. Not to mention the ten or so other countries (not counting the elves) on the continent.


But wasn't Tarquin the leader and the one who came up with the whole nation scam in the first place? For all we know Tarquin may have been the one who gave all the directions to the other party members and that without him, his party may break up due to lack of strong leadership or quarelling for power, or both.

[paladinofshojo]

Another thought has come up, maybe what the ending that the Oracle tells Elan will have isn't really a happy one for him, but what the Oracle percieves as a happy one.

:oracle: What?! You ended up becoming a king and ruling happilly ever after, isn't that good enough?!

[slayerx]

But wasn't Tarquin the leader and the one who came up with the whole nation scam in the first place? For all we know Tarquin may have been the one who gave all the directions to the other party members and that without him, his party may break up due to lack of strong leadership or quarelling for power, or both.

Tarquin came up with the plan but i doubt they would fall apart without him. They have been working on this plan for almost 20 years; unless they are all idiots they should have a good idea of what they need to do. Furthermore, they were all fine with the plan which would result in with them grouping up in pairs and ruling a nation from the shadows; so i doubt there would be much of an issue of a power struggle... really the only question will be who gets to rule all on there own when there are only the 5 of them

Though the only way this would happen is if Tarquin actually WANTS to die... really he's always just one resurrection away from getting back in the game. Killing Malack might not even delay them that much as the empress may order their resurrection by the other clerics... and if she doesn't the other four members of the party will likely catch on to their death's eventually and likely raise them themselves. Unless ofcourse they actually think they can pull off the plan with 4 people and REALLY liked the idea of ruling from the shadows on their own. That would depend on their personalities, like if they are that arrogant and need to have that much personal control; though ruling alone does kinda looses it's luster when you have to do it from the shadows, and having a partner who is actually in on the scheme might be nice since you'll be spending the rest of your life just relaxing in your toy empire

[paladinofshojo]

That would depend on their personalities, like if they are that arrogant and need to have that much personal control; though ruling alone does kinda looses it's luster when you have to do it from the shadows, and having a partner who is actually in on the scheme might be nice since you'll be spending the rest of your life just relaxing in your toy empire


Yes, but what if they lack Tarquin's creativity? A con going on as long as this will lead to a need to adapt to new situations, such as Xykon's new interest in the Continent. If they only blindly follow Tarquin's procedure of invade, oppress, then liberate without coming up with contingencies or thinking outside the box, they'll be in deep trouble.

[Jallorn]

Couple theories here from me, not necessarily exclusive:

1:Ian Starshine rises up as a leader, reveals Tarquin's shell game, and unites the continent in opposition of it, thus creating a single stable nation or alliance.

2:Xykon's army interrupts Elan and Tarquin's fight, leading to them working together.

[slayerx]

Yes, but what if they lack Tarquin's creativity? A con going on as long as this will lead to a need to adapt to new situations, such as Xykon's new interest in the Continent. If they only blindly follow Tarquin's procedure of invade, oppress, then liberate without coming up with contingencies or thinking outside the box, they'll be in deep trouble.
There doesn't seem to be too much to get in the way of their plot. I mean part of the benefit of controlling three nations is that they have 3 full armies at their disposal. That can take care of a lot of problems. Not to mention, if Tarquin's fight with Elan is any indication, the whole group may be high level which would allow them to care care of higher level threats. Hell even if a nation were to fall it would not be a big deal as they allow their nations to fall every year or so, and thus they can just pick up the pieces.



2:Xykon's army interrupts Elan and Tarquin's fight, leading to them working together.
Xykon won't have his army in the west. They lack the necessary transportation, so he's gonna teleport over there with his strongest allies

[An Enemy Spy]

Elan couldn't lead a parade, much less a nation. I would love to see him try though.

[paladinofshojo]

There doesn't seem to be too much to get in the way of their plot. I mean part of the benefit of controlling three nations is that they have 3 full armies at their disposal. That can take care of a lot of problems. Not to mention, if Tarquin's fight with Elan is any indication, the whole group may be high level which would allow them to care care of higher level threats.

True, but there is only so much you can do with your armies until your secret conspiracy is compromised. If they end up trying to coordinate a global assault against a common enemy like Xykon, one would wonder how and why are three bitter enemies able to easilly set aside their differences.

Moving on, even if the rest of them are all high level, it doesn't mean that directly using their own might to deal with problems is a prudent choice. Remember that's how Tarquin lost his own kingdom in the first place. To ensure that they keep their positions as real power holders of their respected nations, the party has to be discrete. I don't think they'll be willing to save the Continent themselves if it jeopordizes their ability to rule it.

[Wymmerdann]

1. Elan turns a blind eye to Tarquin's outragreous evil in exchange for his co-operation.

2. Tarquin and his party aggressively market banjoism as the state religuion in their three empires.

3. Banjo becomes an insanely powerful God quite quickly, refusing to abide by the "no interference with the gates" rule due to his chaotic nature.

4. Banjo personally descends to the prime-material and smites Xykon.

5. Tarquin's group eventually get old and die, leaving the essentially benign church of Banjo as the main power-broker in the western continent, leading to a slow but inexorable shift away from corrupt and evil governance to a more neutral (or even Good) state of affairs, without any opposition from the deceased string-pullers (Order of the Strings?)


Edit: I may or may not have stolen this idea from Emperor Constantine.

[slayerx]

True, but there is only so much you can do with your armies until your secret conspiracy is compromised. If they end up trying to coordinate a global assault against a common enemy like Xykon, one would wonder how and why are three bitter enemies able to easilly set aside their differences.

26 nations that normally fight against each other managed to unite when dealing with Tarquin. Really uniting against a common enemy is not uncommon. Also as they said, part of the point of destroying their nations is to throw people off their trail; wipe out of of the three and people will start to forget about it.

Hell with the way kings come and go, some of the party members can even rename themselves after the fall of one of their nations to keep people off their trail... hell i'm surprised that Tarquin's plan doesn't already include changing their names every few years.


Moving on, even if the rest of them are all high level, it doesn't mean that directly using their own might to deal with problems is a prudent choice. Remember that's how Tarquin lost his own kingdom in the first place. To ensure that they keep their positions as real power holders of their respected nations, the party has to be discrete. I don't think they'll be willing to save the Continent themselves if it jeopordizes their ability to rule it.
Don't know why that means they won't fight... people KNOW they are high level, that's part of why these puppet kings end up relying on them. Hell they can even use their high level as an excuse as to why they are the ones to face Xykon... all they really have to do is remember to constantly say "For my king" and fake loyalty.

Or hell, if they know Xykon only has a small group with him, they might forgo the armies, each claim they're taking a vacation and go deal with Xykon... they can even bring some men to help out so long as they remember to kill them before they start asking questions

A complex plan like the one Tarquin came up to take over the west does take a lot of smarts to come up with; but the plans to keep the plan together don't seem to complex and I would imagine that his team would be smart enough.


1. Elan turns a blind eye to Tarquin's outragreous evil in exchange for his co-operation.

2. Tarquin and his party aggressively market banjoism as the state religuion in their three empires.

3. Banjo becomes an insanely powerful God quite quickly, refusing to abide by the "no interference with the gates" rule due to his chaotic nature.

4. Banjo personally descends to the prime-material and smites Xykon.

5. Tarquin's group eventually get old and die, leaving the essentially benign church of Banjo as the main power-broker in the western continent, leading to a slow but inexorable shift away from corrupt and evil governance to a more neutral (or even Good) state of affairs, without any opposition from the deceased string-pullers (Order of the Strings?)


6. Many years later, war breaks out between the Orthadox Banjoists, and the Reformed Banjoists

[Mr. Snuggles]

Elan couldn't lead a parade, much less a nation. I would love to see him try though.
I don't know...he's obviously been going through significant character growth recently. "I was just thinking. It's this new thing I've been trying." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0744.html) He's the true protagonist of the story, not Roy, although Roy is still the leader of the party. His entire Dashing Swordsman class is predicated upon being a protagonist, and he gets a happy ending just like a protagonist should. Mark my words, Elan is going to mature quickly after this whole thing with his Dad is over.

[paladinofshojo]

26 nations that normally fight against each other managed to unite when dealing with Tarquin. Really uniting against a common enemy is not uncommon. Also as they said, part of the point of destroying their nations is to throw people off their trail; wipe out of of the three and people will start to forget about it.
True, but there's also PR to worry about, it doesn't matter if it seems like a good idea to unite against a common enemy if you have bitter enemies expected to fight side by side with eachother. As Captain Amun-Zora stated, the Weepies are the enemies of the empire of blood (or so it seems to the rest of the Continent). No amount of prudent judgement will make up for the loss of the public favor for "siding with the enemy". Tarquin and Co. are probably wise enough to not risk civil war to deal with an outside threat. Remember, in politics common sense doesn't apply.



Don't know why that means they won't fight... people KNOW they are high level, that's part of why these puppet kings end up relying on them. Hell they can even use their high level as an excuse as to why they are the ones to face Xykon... all they really have to do is remember to constantly say "For my king" and fake loyalty.

Or hell, if they know Xykon only has a small group with him, they might forgo the armies, each claim they're taking a vacation and go deal with Xykon... they can even bring some men to help out so long as they remember to kill them before they start asking questions

A complex plan like the one Tarquin came up to take over the west does take a lot of smarts to come up with; but the plans to keep the plan together don't seem to complex and I would imagine that his team would be smart enough.




Well, we are first assuming that they are a level high enough to deal with Xykon, which may be true based on how easilly Tarquin dealt with Elan and Malack's cleric spells. But there's no way of stating that people know they are high level, since when you're ruling from the shadows it's best to avoid drawing too much attention to yourself as some sort of high leveled adventurer.

Another thing is that it would bring way too much attention to themselves as the "heroes who saved the Western Continent from Xykon" to be able to run their conspiracy effectively. When a coup occurs, it's only the upper echelons of the government that get ousted, the remaining beauracrats and soldiers are still kept because their jobs don't give them too much individual power to be a threat to the new regime and because it probably isn't worth the manpower and resources to replace each and every one of them. That's the simple politics behind Tarquin's conspiracy, pretend to be a small fish and then you are expected to be left alone.

However, if they become "heroes" they will soon be found out since people will start noticing that they are in positions of powers for EVERY country that's been established, and start thinking about it."Gee,why would the great hero Tarquin be allowed to keep his role as general again?" as opposed to "Hey some general got to keep his post after the coup" Even if they go about it as feigning loyalty towards their country's their conspiracy will soon be unravelled as people will start paying too much attention to them that they would bound to be exposed.

[weckar]

I see this as good epilogue material. Of all the Order, Elan seems the best to fill a compasionate ruler position. And with growing up and leadership... He's come a long way since accidentally activating runes. And, with Haley by his side, it'll be fine.

[Grail]

Or hell, if they know Xykon only has a small group with him, they might forgo the armies, each claim they're taking a vacation and go deal with Xykon... they can even bring some men to help out so long as they remember to kill them before they start asking questions


There is a reason why uber powerful individuals engage each other through proxies. Neither side wants to lose. Sure, they might win, but then again, they might not, and the cost of the "not" is often too high, not just for them, but for all they've built.

So instead, proxies are used to fence at each other whilst they dance around the conflict that might utterly destroy them.

[snikrept]

Perhaps this is the happy ending predicted by the oracle - while the Elan who asked the question might not have found it happy, the Elan of the end of the story might do so.