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The Oakenshield
2010-11-22, 05:01 PM
I am rather new to Tome of Battle, and I was wondring if the Playground could give me some suggestions as to what disciplines (and specific maneuvres, perhaps) my Water Orc Warblade should choose.

He will be the party's main melee man, and we will be starting at level 8.

Thanks!

blackjack217
2010-11-22, 05:02 PM
What's the rest of the party?

dsmiles
2010-11-22, 05:09 PM
What's the rest of the party?That would definitely help. In addition, what flavor of meat shield would you like?

Eldariel
2010-11-22, 05:10 PM
I am rather new to Tome of Battle, and I was wondring if the Playground could give me some suggestions as to what disciplines (and specific maneuvres, perhaps) my Water Orc Warblade should choose.

He will be the party's main melee man, and we will be starting at level 8.

Thanks!

You're a Warblade so it'd be a waste to not pick up Iron Heart. Diamond Mind is a good primary damage disciple, as is Tiger Claw; go with one or the other. Stone Dragon...I personally like learning Mountain Hammer and Roots of the Mountain and leaving it at that, though on low levels Charging Minotaur is great. You're past that point though.

White Raven...either go all the way (it's another good damage disciple) or at least pick enough to get Leading the Charge stance (very convenient) and White Raven Tactics (Must Have!); also, learning one of the charges can be good as they don't provoke AoOs.


So...yeah, assuming you're two-handing, I'd go either Tiger Claw or Diamond Mind primary along with Iron Heart and White Raven, dipping Stone Dragon and the other remaining school.

I personally find Diamond Mind to be the very best school the book offers, so I'd naturally suggest that. Though its power is much enhanced if you have natural Pounce to empower Bounding Assault into a supreme approach attack. Obviously, if you go Diamond Mind, you'll want to max out Concentration, and if you go Tiger Claw, pick up Jump.

Note that Sudden Leap is an excellent low level maneuver even if you skip Tiger Claw otherwise too. And for your other low level stance, Hunter's Sense is immaculate, as is Punishing Stance (though it's mostly delegated to TWFers a bit into the game).

Keld Denar
2010-11-22, 05:11 PM
Assuming 2handed with a big beater, you'd seldom go wrong focusing on Diamond Mind with a side of Iron Heart and just a splash of White Raven to poach WRT and a pinch of Stone Dragon to get Mountain Hammer. Mountain Hammer is all utility...seriously, its almost like an at-will disintegrate ray with more noise and less progress/hour...barely.

Hawk7915
2010-11-22, 05:13 PM
You do need to focus on a specific discipline, but all of them except Stone Dragon seem reasonably balanced to me; it all depends on what you want to do. Stone Dragon is a sort of crummy school to specialize in, although you can't go wrong with Mountain Hammer as a maneuver known. As a Water Orc and a primary melee-er, I'd recommend Diamond Mind with a bit of Ironheart. Good maneuvers known as this point would be...

1st: Moment of Perfect Mind, Steel Wind
2nd: Emerald Razor, Mountain Hammer
3rd: Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics
4th: Ruby Nightmare Blade

Stances: Punishing Stance, Leading the Charge

Feats: Blade Meditation (Diamond Mind), Power Attack, +2 more.

EDIT: Swordsage'd, hard :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2010-11-22, 05:18 PM
Assuming 2handed with a big beater, you'd seldom go wrong focusing on Diamond Mind with a side of Iron Heart and just a splash of White Raven to poach WRT and a pinch of Stone Dragon to get Mountain Hammer. Mountain Hammer is all utility...seriously, its almost like an at-will disintegrate ray with more noise and less progress/hour...barely.

It'd be remiss to forget Rabid Wolf Strike and Rabid Bear Strike along with all the Jump attacks from Tiger Claw though; they definitely give two-handers with Power Attack a handy bit of extra punch.

But yeah, Diamond Mind's Emerald Razor and Ruby/Diamond Nightmare Blade (and Time Stands Still and Avalanche of Blades and such later on) are of course also tremendous damage dealers. I still remember that one Wizard vs. Mage Slayers encounter where we stacked the rules against the Wizard and I actually killed him once with a nice little dose of Diamond Nightmare Blade + Power Attack. It's a great way to deal lots of damage in a Standard Action with relatively little investment (Concentration and To Hit buffs are all you need). And Emerald Razor is a great way to Power Attack efficiently early on. With some Str and weapon enhancements, you'll be able to PA for full against many opponents early on. So yeah, that's why I suggest either-or; both come with damage dealers, you just need to take your pick.

Darrin
2010-11-22, 05:41 PM
Water Orc Warblade


If you want to max out Concentration...

Consider adding Dragonborn of Bahumat: +2 Con, -2 Dex. You lose darkvision but also light sensitivity. Also... flying warblade at 6HD.

You can also add the Arctic racial template (Dragon #306, check Crystalkeep's 3.0 templates for details) for +2 Con, -2 Cha.

Find yourself a Githyanki armorsmith who can make githcraft armor/shields. Each githcraft item (+600 GP, DMGII p. 276) adds a +1 untyped bonus to Concentration checks. (chain shirt, dastana, chahar-aina, two bucklers = +5 bonus).

Tunic of Steady Spellcasting (2500 GP, MIC) for +5 competence bonus on Concentration checks.

Shape Soulmeld: Vitality Belt. +4 morale bonus on Constitution-based checks.

The Oakenshield
2010-11-22, 06:05 PM
Okay so: Daimond Mind, Iron Heart, with some Stone Dragon and White Raven! Sounds good.

Anything else?

By the way, I don't know what my fellow players will be, and will be using a Two-Hander.



Additional question: what are your opinions on the Mercurial Greatsword?

Thanks.

Keld Denar
2010-11-22, 06:09 PM
Generally not worth the feat you need. If you want to crit-fish, you'd be better off served with a Falchion even with its slightly lower damage dice. If you want large dice, a Greatsword isn't far enough behind to warrent the EWP feat.

Eldariel
2010-11-22, 06:17 PM
Consider adding Dragonborn of Bahumat: +2 Con, -2 Dex. You lose darkvision but also light sensitivity. Also... flying warblade at 6HD.

Don't forget the other options; Mind-aspect gives you all the senses you could ever hope for including Darkvision. And Heart, of course, gives you Breath Weapon but that's not all THAT useful since the damage is rather low (without Metabreath at any rate).

faceroll
2010-11-22, 06:21 PM
There's a tiger claw stance (level 3 I believe) that gives you a 10 foot enhancement bonus on jump checks and lets standing jumps count as running jumps. If you go power attack-leap attack, it's very strong. Heck, it's really strong by adding wire-fu mobility.


Additional question: what are your opinions on the Mercurial Greatsword?

If you're going to burn an EWP feat, go for a Jovar or Minotaur Greathammer. 2d6 18-20x2 for the Jovar (Planar Handbook) and 2d6 19-20x4 for the Greathammer (MMIV).

Black_Zawisza
2010-11-22, 06:25 PM
Okay so: Daimond Mind, Iron Heart, with some Stone Dragon and White Raven! Sounds good.

Anything else?

By the way, I don't know what my fellow players will be, and will be using a Two-Hander.



Additional question: what are your opinions on the Mercurial Greatsword?

Thanks.
You might find the Warblade Handbook helpful: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?
topic=4408.0;wap2

The Mercurial Greatsword? Definitely not worth wasting a feat and a bunch of money. There are plenty of other ways for a Warblade to do damage already. Battle Leader's Charge, a level 2 White Raven maneuver (so you get it at lvl 3), allows you to add 10 damage and provoke no AoOs on a charge. If you get that as soon as it's available, you can pretty much one-shot most things at that CR.

Darrin
2010-11-22, 06:50 PM
If you're going to burn an EWP feat, go for a Jovar or Minotaur Greathammer. 2d6 18-20x2 for the Jovar (Planar Handbook) and 2d6 19-20x4 for the Greathammer (MMIV).

Combine the best of both worlds: Jovar made out of Kaorti Resin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a). 2d6, 18-20/x4.

Keld Denar
2010-11-22, 06:54 PM
Requires EWP twice. Once to just learn how to use the Jovar, one to learn how to use a ribon jovar.

SO not worth it unless your DM poors feats on you like water, and even then...

AslanCross
2010-11-22, 07:15 PM
There's a tiger claw stance (level 3 I believe) that gives you a 10 foot enhancement bonus on jump checks and lets standing jumps count as running jumps. If you go power attack-leap attack, it's very strong. Heck, it's really strong by adding wire-fu mobility.
\.

Leaping Dragon Stance. Really good, though there's an issue with the levels at which you get stances. You'll likely get it late if you go Warblade.

Darrin
2010-11-22, 07:23 PM
Requires EWP twice. Once to just learn how to use the Jovar, one to learn how to use a ribon jovar.

SO not worth it unless your DM poors feats on you like water, and even then...

That's not how I read it. A ribbon jovar would require EWP (ribbon jovar). The rules for kaorti weapons doesn't say anything about requiring another EWP if the weapon is already exotic.

I'm not exactly an expert on RAW, though. *shrug*

Keld Denar
2010-11-22, 08:57 PM
Its the same thing as the Heavy weapon property from...some Faerun book. The idea is that the additional property requires yet another EWP to cover its special case. Otherwise ALL exotic weapons would be heavy kaorti resin whatever other special mods you could add.

No, each property that makes a weapon more exotic than normal requires its own feat. Dumb, thems tha rulez.

Endarire
2010-11-22, 10:06 PM
Diamond Mind's Save Swaps. Iron Heart Surge. White Raven Tactics.

I summarized what many others said or would say.

faceroll
2010-11-22, 11:16 PM
Diamond Mind's Save Swaps. Iron Heart Surge. White Raven Tactics.

I summarized what many others said or would say.

Thanks.
Tiger Claw has some interesting mobility options.
An Iron Heart 5 or 6 maneuver lets you heal 2x your HP when below half HP.

Darrin
2010-11-22, 11:32 PM
Its the same thing as the Heavy weapon property from...some Faerun book. The idea is that the additional property requires yet another EWP to cover its special case. Otherwise ALL exotic weapons would be heavy kaorti resin whatever other special mods you could add.


Heavy weapons are made out of gold or platinum. If a weapon is made out of gold, it can't be made out of kaorti resin. So no, all exotic weapons would not be heavy kaorti weapons. You'd want to choose one or the other... there are some drawbacks to both: with kaorti, you have to go through the fuss and bother of finding a kaorti and forcing/convincing it to spend the time/resources/XP to make the weapon. For a gold/platinum weapon, there's a much higher cost for a usually slight damage increase.

I've never heard of heavy exotic weapons requiring an additional EWP either.



No, each property that makes a weapon more exotic than normal requires its own feat. Dumb, thems tha rulez.

I don't see that in the rules for either kaorti or heavy weapons. Can you cite a specific source or ruling requiring two EWPs?

faceroll
2010-11-22, 11:41 PM
Here are the rules for kaorti resin weapons:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a

Tytalus
2010-11-23, 08:24 AM
Its the same thing as the Heavy weapon property from...some Faerun book. The idea is that the additional property requires yet another EWP to cover its special case. Otherwise ALL exotic weapons would be heavy kaorti resin whatever other special mods you could add.

No, each property that makes a weapon more exotic than normal requires its own feat. Dumb, thems tha rulez.

Neither the Heavy Weapon nor the Kaorti Resin rules actually specify that.

Chen
2010-11-23, 05:28 PM
Iron heart surge is iffy depending on interpretation. It requires a standard action so you can't use it to remove a lot of effects that don't let you take standard actions. Using it to avoid AMFs and the like is also somewhat cheesy and is usually disallowed by most DMs anyways. I personally don't really like it much if you're not playing a strictly "by RAW" game.