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View Full Version : [3.5] Breaking Fire Shuriken.



Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-22, 08:51 PM
It is a nice level 2 Assassin/Wu Jen spell, found in both CArc and SC. It creates 1 shuriken per 3 CL that deal 3d6 +str fire damage, in addition you are automatically proficient with the shuriken. The best part? The effect is an instantaneous effect, so if you devote a few of your daily spell slots you can eventually amass a good number of them. Personally I think they make for a great alternative to "I miss with my crossbow" at low levels when spell slots are precious.

Well that is good and all, but I am sure we can break this little diamond in the rough using the most trusted and lethal weapon of blasty spellcasters.... Metamagic!!!

With Arcane Thesis and a few select metamagic I am sure we can have a really scary Wu-jen assassin.

Let see which are good options, shall we?

energy sub (to deal with those pesky immunities) IIRC a +0 metamagic
Invisible spell, I find the idea of invisible (elemental) shuriken hilarious, and we are still with a second level spell slot.

Fell drain, now we are talking a free negative level is always a good thing and with arcane thesis and the previous feats I think we are still using a 2nd level spell slot.

Right now those are the ones that I want to use; but both empower and twin spell (on downtime to double your fire shuriken output :smallwink:)

So what do you guys/gals think about this?

Starbuck_II
2010-11-22, 08:59 PM
I love the Fell drain idea.

I never got to make useage of the spell: DM ruled not instanteous so no stock piling but like Scorching ray (all at same time in an attack).

Stallion
2010-11-22, 09:09 PM
It wouldn't work for an assassin, but see what trouble you can get into with Energy Admixture, since you already brought up Energy Subtitution. You get to do the same amount of damage you would do with the spell with another energy type, only it's added onto the fire damage it would normally do.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-11-22, 09:21 PM
You could go searing spell instead of energy sub; it makes the damage more reliable and potentially twice as potent. It was my understanding that Arcane Thesis allowed +0 metamagics to go negative so long as the net level adjustment of the spell wasn't negative. So you could cast an Invisible Searing Empowered Fire Shuriken in a level 2 spell slot.

FMArthur
2010-11-22, 09:22 PM
I would actually stop at two +0 metamagics, Fell Drain, and Arcane Thesis for metamagic investment. That's already enough for a Master Thrower build to begin enormous amounts of level-drain abuse, isn't it?

Anyway I might be more inclined to use a Chameleon to grab Assassin spells to use better and sooner than Assassins can, but it does require a feat and race for entry, and something tells me that feats are going to be scarce in a build dedicated to making throwing shuriken a powerful thing.

Also, I don't know what the material component of this spell is supposed to have us believe; are shuriken free with spell component pouches? That in itself introduces desirable benefits for other shuriken throwers who can't even cast the spell! If not, does the expense still make the spell worth it? A one-or-two level dip in Chameleon (depending on your Int; they start with 0 2nd level spells) to stockpile these superpowered shuriken is probably a a worthy investment on a build focusing on throwing as many shuriken as possible, anyway.

Quietus
2010-11-22, 09:37 PM
Well, consider that they explicitly state the value of an item if it's needed.. I'm confident I've seen other spells listing a potion/mundane/alchemical item as a requirement, and adding a "Which costs X gold" thing to that. So while I, as a DM, would probably say "You have to buy the shuriken to use with this, and they are recoverable minus the magic if they don't break in use", I think by strict RAW, this spell makes shuriken free to pull out of a spell component pouch, which you can turn around and sell for free money.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-22, 09:52 PM
It wouldn't work for an assassin, but see what trouble you can get into with Energy Admixture, since you already brought up Energy Subtitution. You get to do the same amount of damage you would do with the spell with another energy type, only it's added onto the fire damage it would normally do.

Too much investment... IIRC energy admixture is a +3 or so MM, and while it might be worthwhile on spell with a freaking amount of damage potential (orbs for example) an extra 3d6 won't be that much.


You could go searing spell instead of energy sub; it makes the damage more reliable and potentially twice as potent. It was my understanding that Arcane Thesis allowed +0 metamagics to go negative so long as the net level adjustment of the spell wasn't negative. So you could cast an Invisible Searing Empowered Fire Shuriken in a level 2 spell slot.
I went with energy sub, because it is a more versatile than searing, and I would prefer to go with negative levels, more useful if you throw a huge amount of shurikens


I would actually stop at two +0 metamagics, Fell Drain, and Arcane Thesis for metamagic investment. That's already enough for a Master Thrower build to begin enormous amounts of level-drain abuse, isn't it?

Anyway I might be more inclined to use a Chameleon to grab Assassin spells to use better and sooner than Assassins can, but it does require a feat and race for entry, and something tells me that feats are going to be scarce in a build dedicated to making throwing shuriken a powerful thing.

Also, I don't know what the material component of this spell is supposed to have us believe; are shuriken free with spell component pouches? That in itself introduces desirable benefits for other shuriken throwers who can't even cast the spell! If not, does the expense still make the spell worth it? A one-or-two level dip in Chameleon (depending on your Int; they start with 0 2nd level spells) to stockpile these superpowered shuriken is probably a a worthy investment on a build focusing on throwing as many shuriken as possible, anyway.

Yeah, invisible fell draining _____ shurikens are pretty bad without piling more MM on it. I didn't consider it in a Master thrower build... but the double throw trick is a good one...hmmm I might think more deeply into that.

Chameleon didn't cross my mind at all... seems interesting and maybe useful, the limited spell levels might be bad if we decided to start using more metamagic (without reducers) on the downtime. In a more throwing oriented build the dip into chameleon might be quite worthwhile (you can use the floating bonus feat to get a nice metamagic for the crafting days); but I originally thought to use this on an unseen seer build.

As for the cost, shurikens (which are the material component) only cost 1 GP, so is not expensive, even at lower levels. And besides by RAW if you have a high CL you only need 1 shuriken per casting, so at say CL 6 you get 2 shuriken per 1 GP.


Well, consider that they explicitly state the value of an item if it's needed.. I'm confident I've seen other spells listing a potion/mundane/alchemical item as a requirement, and adding a "Which costs X gold" thing to that. So while I, as a DM, would probably say "You have to buy the shuriken to use with this, and they are recoverable minus the magic if they don't break in use", I think by strict RAW, this spell makes shuriken free to pull out of a spell component pouch, which you can turn around and sell for free money.

The material component for fire shuriken is specially treated shuriken, which cost 1 gp, and as such the eschew material feat would cover that nicely; but I wouldn't use it to break the gold economy (far to easier) just to have a nice weapon when I don't want to cast spells.

Now for the downtime days when you can use your full allotment of spell slots, what metamagics would be worthwhile? Consider this would be a time where you won't need your higher level spell slots.

true_shinken
2010-11-22, 10:41 PM
Man, I have a JPM player that uses this spell and we always thought it was a blasting spell. Guess I never read it right :/
I think she even used it as a touch attack.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-22, 10:50 PM
Man, I have a JPM player that uses this spell and we always thought it was a blasting spell. Guess I never read it right :/
I think she even used it as a touch attack.

I see from where you come from, the spell is an Evocation one, so that might have something to do with the confusion.

Quietus
2010-11-22, 10:56 PM
I see from where you come from, the spell is an Evocation one, so that might have something to do with the confusion.

I guess it's Evocation just because you're effectively permanently lightning something on fire?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-22, 10:57 PM
In my opinion it would be more of a conjuration [creation] as at higher levels you create shurikens out of nothing, but it would make this spell much more powerful, because it would remove SR.