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View Full Version : [PF/3.5] Control Water / Time Stop interaction



DanielBDouglas
2010-11-23, 01:21 AM
Hi all, I'm having a character optimization challenge / battle with a friend using the Pathfinder system, and I was wondering what those in the Playground thought of the way I envisioned a particular strategy going. One of my characters is an Aquatic Sorcerer 20 (from the Advanced Player's Guide) which has a class ability that reads:

Raise the Deep (Sp): At 15th level, you raise water as per control water, but no water need be present. This created water is stationary and does not flow out of the area where you create it; it lasts 1 round per sorcerer level and then disappears. At 20th level, the dimensions of the effect are doubled. You may use this ability once per day.

Text for Control Water is at the end of this post.

My strategy was to Raise The Deep at the beginning, summoning a huge cube of water out of nowhere and leaving my friend's characters at the bottom, forced to hold breath and swim to escape. However, the reading of boats sliding down the side of control water indicates that control water instead pushes up on anything in it, then allowing it to fall afterward, rather than instantaneously increasing the water level and submerging anything at surface level whether or not it's tied down.

Now I'm thinking about Time Stop, then Raise the Deep. Since they aren't being targeted or receiving a save, and the spell isn't allowed to move them, would they "wake up" after the Stop suddenly underwater? Should the casting fail? Should nothing happen during the Time Stop, but water surge up during the first round of real time? Obviously this is gray "ask the DM" territory, but I'm looking for justifications and thoughts one way or the other.

Is there a way for my sorcerer to trap a bunch of opponents at the floor of an artificial ocean with no save? Thanks in advance for your thoughts. :smallsmile:


Control Water
School transmutation [water]; Level cleric 4, druid 4, sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (a pinch of dust for lower water or a drop of water for raise water)
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area water in a volume of 10 ft./level by 10 ft./level by 2 ft./level (S)
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; see text; Spell Resistance no

This spell has two different applications, both of which control water in different ways. The first version of this spell causes water in the area to swiftly evaporate or to sink into the ground below, lowering the water's depth. The second version causes the water to surge and rise, increasing its overall depth and possibly flooding nearby areas.

Lower Water: This causes water or similar liquid to reduce its depth by as much as 2 feet per caster level (to a minimum depth of 1 inch). The water is lowered within a squarish depression whose sides are up to caster level x 10 feet long. In extremely large and deep bodies of water, such as a deep ocean, the spell creates a whirlpool that sweeps ships and similar craft downward, putting them at risk and rendering them unable to leave by normal movement for the duration of the spell. When cast on water elementals and other water-based creatures, this spell acts as a slow spell (Will negates). The spell has no effect on other creatures.

Raise Water: This causes water or similar liquid to rise in height, just as the lower water version causes it to lower. Boats raised in this way slide down the sides of the hump that the spell creates. If the area affected by the spell includes riverbanks, a beach, or other land nearby, the water can spill over onto dry land.

With either version of this spell, you may reduce one horizontal dimension by half and double the other horizontal dimension to change the overall area of effect.

Curmudgeon
2010-11-23, 01:41 AM
Your limitations are specified by Time Stop:
While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. This means that Raise the Deep (spell-like, so it follows the limitations for spells here) cannot have effect on other creatures until the Time Stop ends; the rounds inside the Time Stop just get used up uselessly since Raise the Deep cannot affect any creatures while in Time Stop.

DanielBDouglas
2010-11-23, 01:53 AM
But if the time stop specifically says that it can't affect them until the time stop concludes, when the only effect would be pushing them up 80' with water - would they instead be submerged at the conclusion of the time stop?

fireinakasha
2010-11-23, 02:12 AM
The rules cited in Curmudgeon's post say that any effect of an AoE spell is delayed until the end of time stop. So, therefore, if you used raise water while in a state of time stop, the water wouldn't actually raise until time stop was over. Therefore, no, the targets couldn't be instantly submerged, as the water would appear once time resumed, not while it was stopped.

olentu
2010-11-23, 02:16 AM
The rules cited in Curmudgeon's post say that any effect of an AoE spell is delayed until the end of time stop. So, therefore, if you used raise water while in a state of time stop, the water wouldn't actually raise until time stop was over. Therefore, no, the targets couldn't be instantly submerged, as the water would appear once time resumed, not while it was stopped.

Actually it says on other creatures so while it can not do things to other creatures it can affect the environment the caster and I believe unattended objects.

Edit: In any case it looks like raise water technically only raises boats but I suppose we are assuming that it has been ruled that everything is a boat.

Claudius Maximus
2010-11-23, 02:49 AM
I suppose we are assuming that it has been ruled that everything is a boat.

I like this premise.

In a world where everything is a boat...